Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: BreakingBad on January 17, 2014, 08:47:36 AM
-
I've noticed our society often grants the title of 'hero' to anyone who ever served anywhere. Served in WW2....hero. Been in the military....hero.
In your opinion, should that also apply to the enemy combatants, even through they served under what we (I) deem as morally corrupt regimes. Such as Nazi Germany or the Empire of Japan. How about North Vietnamese vets, are they also 'hero's'
Check out this guy, how would you class him?
http://news.yahoo.com/japan-wwii-soldier-hid-jungle-until-1974-dies-091014526.html (http://news.yahoo.com/japan-wwii-soldier-hid-jungle-until-1974-dies-091014526.html)
-
I'm not near as old as some of you but...we studied this guy in school as part of our World History, that apparently isn't taught anymore in our (don't want to violate any rules) public schools...we were also taught that all soldiers are heroes to their respective countries....I had to erase a lot of good stuff about how I am seeing public schooling as my daughter is in her second year of it now...but as to the OP yes all soldiers are heroes in their respective countries :bolt:
-
A hero is someone who goes above and beyond the call to help save his fellow man, often at the expense of his own life, he doesn't belong to any nation or any race, most real hero's will deny that they are ! An example that comes to mind for me is sgt York who went against his own beliefs to help save his fellow man no matter what side they fought on,
most fighter pilots are not hero's, not because they couldn't be but because there calling doesn't put them in a situation to become one.
We all have a hero inside us but rarely are ever presented with the opertunity to prove it,,, and that is a blessing! Ask me why sometime and I'll tell you about standing inside a fire with a hundred people dead scattered all around you and a thousand more injured, needing help,, then wandering for the next 25 years, ( on a daily basis) how did I live? Did I get the ones that needed me to ? Did I do the right thing?
Soldiers are not hero's,, they are great people, they could become hero's in an instant, they sign that check up to and including there life, I did that! About 1% of the people of the U.S. And other free countries Help defend most of the world from tyranny , they deserve to be treated like hero's,,, and hope they never have to become one!
-
One of the best lines from that movie 'Gran Torino' with Clint Eastwood:
"Padre, it's not what a soldier was ordered to do that haunts him, it's what he wasn't ordered to do'.
Not really germane to the topic. It just makes me think of the atrocities committed by ordinary soldiers historically, like in the Rape of Nanking or the Eastern Front. Surely ordinary soldiers who committed crimes like that couldn't be considered 'hero's' simply because they were soldiers.
-
Hero is a vague word that encompasses anything between a person admired for his/her achievements and noble qualities, to a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability.
Who's a hero is entirely subjective.
-
it's a matter of culture and some military indoctrination. he would have been a hero to his family by continuing to do what he was ordered to do and not dishonoring his ancestors or his country.
-
A Hero is someome: Race, loyalty and religion have nothing to do in determining who is a hero.
1. is not concerned with his safety.
2. only worries about those around him that he loves.
3. willing to give his life for anyone without hesitation or reservation.
4. believes in honor and valor
5. Does not wish to be remembered.
6. Most never made it back from the Battlefield.
TO all those that gave their live to defend their religon, country , and family. To save a fellow soldier or civillian. We thank you from the bottom of are hearts. May the memory of your selflessness teach us, and help us to live in your footsteps.
:salute :salute :salute :salute :salute :salute :salute
-
point
of
view
-
the only true hero's in this world are fire fighters.....
solders now a days.......most of them.... NOT all of course, but most of them are only in it for the kill...they want to kill stuff....that is the furthest thing from a "hero" you can get....
I would say Police...but there are far to many that are in it for the power......
Fire Fighters.......They are the true Hero's.
-
the only true hero's in this world are fire fighters.....
solders now a days.......most of them.... NOT all of course, but most of them are only in it for the kill...they want to kill stuff....that is the furthest thing from a "hero" you can get....
I would say Police...but there are far to many that are in it for the power......
Fire Fighters.......They are the true Hero's.
Interesting. What information are you using to come to this conclusion and where did the information come from?
I thought that the VAST majority of "solders"<sic> really want to do their duty and go safely home. I've also read many reports about soldiers that were kill happy being sent home specifically because of that attitude.
-
Interesting. What information are you using to come to this conclusion and where did the information come from?
I thought that the VAST majority of "solders"<sic> really want to do their duty and go safely home. I've also read many reports about soldiers that were kill happy being sent home specifically because of that attitude.
by the people I have met...and talking to ones that want to "sign up"
I didn't say everyone is like that did I ?
I have met a lot of them....Tattooing gives me an insight most will never get, just by the shear number of people I meet and the time I spend with them......
-
the only true hero's in this world are fire fighters.....
solders now a days.......most of them.... NOT all of course, but most of them are only in it for the kill...they want to kill stuff....that is the furthest thing from a "hero" you can get....
I would say Police...but there are far to many that are in it for the power......
Fire Fighters.......They are the true Hero's.
A little cynical don't you think? While I would agree that there are most likely a few, (less than 0.10%), in it to kill stuff, I believe that the vast majority are in it for the right reasons. Now does that make them Heroes? No, but they certainly deserve our respect and gratitude for their sacrifice. :salute
-
Yes I think I would consider that feller a hero for Japan.
Any person who is willing to take a bullet in the defense of their country is a hero for that country. A person doesn't have to be MY hero but certainly could be someone else's.
@ Ink.....don't forget about those EMTs out there :aok
-
A little cynical don't you think? While I would agree that there are most likely a few, (less than 0.10%), in it to kill stuff, I believe that the vast majority are in it for the right reasons. Now does that make them Heroes? No, but they certainly deserve our respect and gratitude for their sacrifice. :salute
yup...for sure, but this life and dealing with people has taught me well..... :aok
and I disagree far more then 10% are in it to kill.....
why should I respect someone who is blindly killing for money and power?
I wont get into it, lets just say we have different views on life and what is important....I wont disrespect HTC and break his rules by getting into a politics argument/discussion....
:salute
-
When you say "blindly killing for power and money", two groups come to mind.......governments and drug cartels. Well 3 I guess when you throw in groups like Blackwater and the like.
-
the only true hero's in this world are fire fighters.....
solders now a days.......most of them.... NOT all of course, but most of them are only in it for the kill...they want to kill stuff....that is the furthest thing from a "hero" you can get....
I would say Police...but there are far to many that are in it for the power......
Fire Fighters.......They are the true Hero's.
Ink that is one of the most silliest things Ive heard in awhiles. You have seen to many movies. We dont spend Billions to train soldiers to do flower arranging.
And who do you think is usually the first at fires? But I guess firemen dont hand out $200 tickets are confiscate your illegal weed. Thus they become "Heros".
-
INK, sir.
If you were a Church pastor interviewing young men of your congregation who were joining the military, do you think you would learn that men coming from that environment would also have the "majority" enlisting just so they could kill people?
I mean to cast no aspersions upon your lifestyle and environment sir and I realize my question would seem to do just that.
I might make one more point please. Those men you talk to, they see you, they know you, they talk to you and you may intimidate them. Is it possible they are taliking a bit tougher than they really are because they are seeing you as a tough guy and do want to impress you ?
-
Ink that is one of the most silliest things Ive heard in awhiles. You have seen to many movies. We dont spend Billions to train soldiers to do flower arranging.
And who do you think is usually the first at fires? But I guess firemen dont hand out $200 tickets are confiscate your illegal weed. Thus they become "Heros".
:rofl
movies....not likely......you said it yourself in your response...but you wont get it...it is hard for you to see objectively being a LEO...you do have an insight I have seen but....still want to defend what you spent most of your life doing...I understand that, and respect that, but I have met many cops...guards...people who hold the "key" or "gun" and many of them do it for that reason alone.
INK, sir.
If you were a Church pastor interviewing young men of your congregation who were joining the military, do you think you would learn that men coming from that environment would also have the "majority" enlisting just so they could kill people?
I mean to cast no aspersions upon your lifestyle and environment sir and I realize my question would seem to do just that.
I might make one more point please. Those men you talk to, they see you, they know you, they talk to you and you may intimidate them. Is it possible they are taliking a bit tougher than they really are because they are seeing you as a tough guy and do want to impress you ?
you could be right....I am basing my beliefs on what I have seen :salute
-
The man was ordered to fight the US Military and its allies. Stay alive, and conduct intelligence work and sabotage. He was cut off from the outside due to his position.
When the man's CO rescinded his order and told him that the war was over. He presented his sword. And marched away a soldier.
Say what you want, the man's dedication to duty in the service of his country, and the high priority he placed to honorable conduct. Make him a true example of a fine soldier and officer.
Is he a hero? Point of View as already said is key.
But I would say that he is a fine if not perfect example of the finest calibre of soldier.
-
Im not talking about your views towards the police Ink, tho I do find it kinda funny you think we have some kind of "power".
Its your comments towards service members I find silly. And disrespectful. Its pretty obvious you have never worn a uniform and thus have no foot hold on objectivity.
So dont be to surprised when others have biased opinions of you.
solders now a days.......most of them.... NOT all of course, but most of them are only in it for the kill...they want to kill stuff..
Good God where did you get that one from?
-
Im not talking about your views towards the police Ink, tho I do find it kinda funny you think we have some kind of "power".
Its your comments towards service members I find silly. And disrespectful. Its pretty obvious you have never worn a uniform and thus have no foot hold on objectivity.
So dont be to surprised when others have biased opinions of you.
Good God where did you get that one from?
I guess I am gonna lose all kinds of sleep and worry about what you think of me....... :rolleyes:
-
On my father's side we can trace back to days of Irish and Scot rebellions and mercenaries in our family. Our clan's CoA has representations on it hailing mercenaries. They were in it for the money and I'm sure some of it was for the rage of battle and killing Brits or even other clans. Were they heroes or more like Blackwater previously mentioned? They were highly celebrated people at the time, willing to come risk their lives for a cause where the group needing their help was typically significantly disadvantaged in some way. Yet they may have been so poor at home that it left them few other choices.
Hmmmm.
-
I guess I am gonna lose all kinds of sleep and worry about what you think of me....... :rolleyes:
Your to old for this kinda stuff Ink. No doubt you'd hate being categorized as a tattoo artist. Not that I would ever do so.
Im a vet, the father of a troop, and have known/talked thousands of both. Your description is as far from the truth as one could get.
Jeez you sound like one of those west coast Libs who live off the fat of freedom others have fought for and have seen to many reruns of "Apocalypse Now".
-
Nope.
-
I have tattooed many solders....thousands of them of them actually.....
yes obviously there are those who truly want to and do it for the right reasons...in there own minds.....(thats not to say the war we have been fighting is "right")...I tattooed one that was the very first over there....where did they go???? to the oil fields.....to protect them.....
but yes man....many I have talked to are all about going and killing the "enemy" thats all they want to do.....
now maybe it is that they want to seem all big and bad trying to impress the tattoo guy....but I am all about GOD and talk to them about Him so why would they try to impress me that way?
I don't make crap up.....I am speaking from dealing with young guys who are all gung ho about going and killing some sand people......not caring that the war is a farce....
don't take what I said as saying ALL guys are like that...I never implied that nor do I believe that.
-
Whoever said POINT OF VIEW.
break...
This guy? LOYAL, DEDICATED...
break...
Hero? To Japan's WW II Empire
break...
End message.
-
I am speaking from dealing with young guys who are all gung ho about going and killing some sand people......not caring that the war is a farce....
This is the minority. Just being boys...right up to the first shot fired at them in anger.
War is no farce to a soldier ordered into a combat zone. It doesn't matter what a soldier thinks...it only matters what orders they are given. That's why they live with what they live with AFTER the war is over and some never recover from their "opinions" vs their orders.
"Mine is not to reason why, mine is just to do or die"
Judge the wars' reason by the men that call the shots....not the men and women who carry out those orders.
-
I have tattooed many solders....thousands of them of them actually.....
yes obviously there are those who truly want to and do it for the right reasons...in there own minds.....(thats not to say the war we have been fighting is "right")...I tattooed one that was the very first over there....where did they go???? to the oil fields.....to protect them.....
but yes man....many I have talked to are all about going and killing the "enemy" thats all they want to do.....
now maybe it is that they want to seem all big and bad trying to impress the tattoo guy....but I am all about GOD and talk to them about Him so why would they try to impress me that way?
I don't make crap up.....I am speaking from dealing with young guys who are all gung ho about going and killing some sand people......not caring that the war is a farce....
don't take what I said as saying ALL guys are like that...I never implied that nor do I believe that.
Just wow. I honestly don't know how you are not banned already. I'm just gonna make an assumption here and say you have probably had a handful come in and say that. And most of those were probably young kids fresh out of basic trying to look tough. I spent 6 years Army Infantry and saw more than I care for of war. And I can tell you from personal experience NONE of the guys in my unit thought that way. And my job was the one to go out and engage the enemy! For every single one of us a good day over there was a day that not a single bullet was fired. I am a disabled vet that was hurt in Afghanistan just doing what I felt was my duty, as was all my friends and brothers that were over there. I do not consider myself a hero, nor am I posting for any kind of attention or recognition. But you sir are just taking a dump on the memory of my friends that were killed over there. You are the lowest kind of person there is. And honestly I don't care if you don't lose any sleep over what I think of you. I only hope that you or any of your relatives never have to see the horrific things that I have seen. Judging a whole by most likely a handful of kids. Just wow. Shameful. That is all.
:salute
Bones87
-
Just wow. I honestly don't know how you are not banned already. I'm just gonna make an assumption here and say you have probably had a handful come in and say that. And most of those were probably young kids fresh out of basic trying to look tough. I spent 6 years Army Infantry and saw more than I care for of war. And I can tell you from personal experience NONE of the guys in my unit thought that way. And my job was the one to go out and engage the enemy! For every single one of us a good day over there was a day that not a single bullet was fired. I am a disabled vet that was hurt in Afghanistan just doing what I felt was my duty, as was all my friends and brothers that were over there. I do not consider myself a hero, nor am I posting for any kind of attention or recognition. But you sir are just taking a dump on the memory of my friends that were killed over there. You are the lowest kind of person there is. And honestly I don't care if you don't lose any sleep over what I think of you. I only hope that you or any of your relatives never have to see the horrific things that I have seen. Judging a whole by most likely a handful of kids. Just wow. Shameful. That is all.
:salute
Bones87
sorry man don't mean to take a dump on your memories...
I didn't insult anyone, I spoke from what I have seen and heard...
and once more for the last fn time....I didn't say everyone was like that so seriously guys....get your panties out of a bunch....friggen people. :rolleyes:
This is the minority. Just being boys...right up to the first shot fired at them in anger.
War is no farce to a soldier ordered into a combat zone. It doesn't matter what a soldier thinks...it only matters what orders they are given. That's why they live with what they live with AFTER the war is over and some never recover from their "opinions" vs their orders.
"Mine is not to reason why, mine is just to do or die"
Judge the wars' reason by the men that call the shots....not the men and women who carry out those orders.
no man...every mans souls is his to control...not some man in a suit "who calls the shots" telling them what to do....
our actions...our choices are on US.
when we are judged...."I was just doing my job" is not gonna cut it.
-
no man...every mans souls is his to control...not some man in a suit "who calls the shots" telling them what to do....
our actions...our choices are on US.
when we are judged...."I was just doing my job" is not gonna cut it.
Lets not forget that not everyone shares the thought that the war was for nothing or a farce. I for one, having friends that are still in, know it was not a farce.
We can just agree to disagree on this one INK.
Do not judge others because they sin differently than you do...
-
Lets not forget that not everyone shares the thought that the war was for nothing or a farce. I for one, having friends that are still in, know it was not a farce.
We can just agree to disagree on this one INK.
Do not judge others because they sin differently than you do...
I like that :aok and it is very true
oh it was for something all right....not that we can get into it. :salute
-
I'm refraining from this discussion, but I like this pic.
(https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/p480x480/1012007_421496407983076_795252793_n.jpg)
-
Well since were all asking what makes a hero? Let me just add that not merely being in a life threatening battle ground taking enemy fire is not the only way to become a hero. I've seen many people who are heroes in their own little way. Heroes because they didn't fall into deep depression when they lost a very beloved family member and kept standing strong for those younger then him/her. Even that nice friend of yours that stays up with you all night on the phone helping you get through emotional trauma. So really to me at least being a hero is about doing the right thing. Since there's no annual hero award event every month and a list of what it takes to apply and "become a hero". Then I think doing what's right fits good enough for what it means to become a hero. Then again though there's a thin line between doing what's right and doing what's necessary.
-
Well since were all asking what makes a hero? Let me just add that not merely being in a life threatening battle ground taking enemy fire is not the only way to become a hero. I've seen many people who are heroes in their own little way. Heroes because they didn't fall into deep depression when they lost a very beloved family member and kept standing strong for those younger then him/her. Even that nice friend of yours that stays up with you all night on the phone helping you get through emotional trauma. So really to me at least being a hero is about doing the right thing. Since there's no annual hero award event every month and a list of what it takes to apply and "become a hero". Then I think doing what's right fits good enough for what it means to become a hero. Then again though there's a thin line between doing what's right and doing what's necessary.
:aok
-
Well since were all asking what makes a hero? Let me just add that not merely being in a life threatening battle ground taking enemy fire is not the only way to become a hero. I've seen many people who are heroes in their own little way. Heroes because they didn't fall into deep depression when they lost a very beloved family member and kept standing strong for those younger then him/her. Even that nice friend of yours that stays up with you all night on the phone helping you get through emotional trauma. So really to me at least being a hero is about doing the right thing. Since there's no annual hero award event every month and a list of what it takes to apply and "become a hero". Then I think doing what's right fits good enough for what it means to become a hero. Then again though there's a thin line between doing what's right and doing what's necessary.
Rgr that
-
He's a Hiroo not a hero!
:noid
-
There are two heros in this.....the soldier and his doctor
http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201202/burning-man-sam-brown-jay-kirk-gq-february-2012?currentPage=1
-
I would say the Japanese guy was not a hero but a nutter. He apparently killed dozens of local population and local military. At some point when you are shooting guys armed with Vietnam era equipment who are exclaiming that the war was over you would think he might have stopped and considered his position to be one of extreme ignorance to the state of world politics even if by some chance the second world war was still going.
Dedicated soldier? Absolutely. Unhinged loony? Quite possibly. I'm sure 30 years at war in the jungle would make me insane too. But I'm also sure that my common sense would have ended that situation decades sooner. Hero? No way!
-
nobody is a hero to everybody. if his people thought he was a hero, let it be.
semp
-
I'm glad you said that, I was just about to write a letter to Japan on the subject.
-
I'm glad you said that, I was just about to write a letter to Japan on the subject.
Could you sign my name to it too? Just sign, "How the hell did this happen?" With a smiley face stick man
-
The problem is that the term hero has been over used lately. Most serving soldiers are probably embarrassed by it because of course they know who the real heroes are and are quick to tell you if you ask.
So was the Japanese soldier a hero? Some might think so but he probably thought he was just doing his job.
To change the cliché 'One man' terrorist is another man's hero.' In the troubled history of my country there are those considered heroes by some but to me they are cowards and murderers. No hero deliberately plants a bomb in a crowded street to kill innocent men, women and children no matter what the cause.
I don't have many heroes and I'm not one myself. The real heroes are often never recognised.
-
It seems a lot of people a confused to what a hero is. A person is a hero if people look upon that person as such; "a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal."
It doesn't really matter what that person has actually accomplished. It's all about image and admiration. If people think you're a hero, you are a hero. If people don't have a clue who you are and don't look up to you, you're not a hero... regardless of what you may have done.
If there are people who think of this Japanese officer as a hero, then he is a hero... to them. No matter what.
If the general population admire soldiers for what they do in general (regardless of individual acts) and look up to them as models or ideals, then by definition soldiers are heroes.
-
It seems a lot of people a confused to what a hero is. A person is a hero if people look upon that person as such; "a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal."
It doesn't really matter what that person has actually accomplished. It's all about image and admiration. If people think you're a hero, you are a hero. If people don't have a clue who you are and don't look up to you, you're not a hero... regardless of what you may have done.
If there are people who think of this Japanese officer as a hero, then he is a hero... to them. No matter what.
If the general population admire soldiers for what they do in general (regardless of individual acts) and look up to them as models or ideals, then by definition soldiers are heroes.
Wrong for so many reasons, your definition is why kids look up to Hollywood and not the real people involved the histories portrayed.
-
It's not my definition. It's the definition of the world in the English language. It's all about the admiration, not the person itself. It's funny that you mention Hollywood since the principal male character in a movie is by definition a hero.
hero
he·ro
[heer-oh] Show IPA
noun, plural he·roes; for 5 also he·ros.
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal.
3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
-
here is a hero!
8-year-old boy rescues 6 relatives from fire, dies trying to save 7th
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/21/us/new-york-boy-saves-family-fire/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
not by definition, by action,
"It makes me really proud, it really does, but I just want him back," Tyler's mother, Crystal Vrooman, told CNN affiliate WHAM.
The boy broke away from his aunt outside the burning trailer and ran back inside to try to save his grandfather, she said.
"All I could think about is how he couldn't breathe," she told WHAM.
The pair were found together on a bed in the back room. It appeared that the boy was trying to lift his grandfather from the bed when he was overcome by the smoke and fire, the fire chief said.
-
It's not my definition. It's the definition of the world in the English language. It's all about the admiration, not the person itself. It's funny that you mention Hollywood since the principal male character in a movie is by definition a hero.
hero
he·ro
[heer-oh] Show IPA
noun, plural he·roes; for 5 also he·ros.
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal.
3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
If someone has to look up the definition of hero to determine what one is, that's a problem.
-
If you prefer to make up you your own words and meanings, that's fine. However don't expect other people to understand what you're on about. It's also funny that those who berate other people for using the word inappropriately can't be bothered by such pesky details as a dictionary definition... :lol
-
If you prefer to make up you your own words and meanings, that's fine. However don't expect other people to understand what you're on about. It's also funny that those who berate other people for using the word inappropriately can't be bothered by such pesky details as a dictionary definition... :lol
My point was exactly that. Hero is generally self-defined, hence all the different answers. None are wrong. They just are. Some folks here recognize the saving of a life...some folks recognize the caregiver that spends all their time and energy helping to make the dying's last days more comfortable and some believe its about medals won or awards received. Some believe its their parents for raising them right and some believe its an older sibling that saved their life by keeping them out of the harms way they were surely headed for. Others believe its a hallowed term for use only when one gives their own life for another person.
The definition isn't pesky...but for the word "hero"...its only an starting point for those that need help recognizing the word is much, much larger than the words used to illustrate its meaning in a dictionary.
I have my definition as do the others that answered and I guess that was my point...we didn't need the definition.
-
Because you've made your own.
-
You know there is NO keeper of the English language, better stated we are its keepers. Dictionaries are reference. The beauty lies in its constant evolution.
-
Fires are a terribly frightening thing. I'd rather take on a squad of armed thugs then ever have to go into a fire again.
-
You know there is NO keeper of the English language, better stated we are its keepers. Dictionaries are reference. The beauty lies in its constant evolution.
If so then "hero" certainly includes all kinds of Hollywood personalities, sports personalities, musicians, teen idols etc. I.e. people who are admired. Anyone trying to narrow the definition would find themselves outnumbered.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdromzMZ9W1qbyu77o1_500.jpg)
-
A tweeners hero will certainly not be their hero when they are 40, if so, they may need a real good therapist. ;)
However, you are correct.
-
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2014/01/23/justin-bieber-reportedly-arrested-in-miami-beach/
Drag racing while intoxicated, it's called lack of respect for anything or anybody else.
-
I think we need to distinguish between the two notions of being a hero to someone, and being a hero to me. The Japanese lieutenant is probably a hero to some Japanese, and that makes him a hero™. Though he is not a hero to me personally. Like I said in my first post... It's all subjective.
As for the Canadian teen-idol's latest faux pas, it won't even make a dent in the psudo-religious following of his "belibers". Sadly.
-
my contribution to this fascinating argument (http://www.myvideo.de/watch/4149761/Bonnie_Tyler_Holding_Out_For_A_Hero) :banana:
-
:lol :cheers:
-
my contribution to this fascinating argument (http://www.myvideo.de/watch/4149761/Bonnie_Tyler_Holding_Out_For_A_Hero) :banana:
what's in the video? my settings wont allow me to play it.
semp