Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Plawranc on January 21, 2014, 01:44:17 AM
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I have noticed that in my work place, legal contracts and agreements, health and safety protocols and food safety protocols are being ignored.
I brought it up with my fellow employees and with low level management to the effect of what we can do about it.
I was informed today by a fellow worker that they overheard a pair of senior management people were discussing the situation in question and said they are going to send their tallest and "scariest" senior manager to.. and I quote "scare me into shutting the **** up"
Any thoughts gents?
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Way too little info to answer your very complex question.
But, watch your step if you like your job. The "right thing" to do and what is done is in the eye of the beholder...
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^
I have to agree.. whistle blowers may be able to sleep better at night.. but then again, maybe being unemployed keeps them awake..
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You have to make a decision, Plawranc. Is it more important to tell what's going on and put your job at risk, IF you can't prove your assertions. If you can, you are protected under Federal whistleblower laws. The problem with those is that you have to be able to prove retribution on the part of your employer. The system is set up to favor the employers, unfortunately.
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^
I have to agree.. whistle blowers may be able to sleep better at night.. but then again, maybe being unemployed keeps them awake..
This is true. BUT...
Remember that to the bosses, shutting you up is the easier solution to the problem vs. actually correcting what is wrong. I'm sure that there is a government agency or agencies that could make a whole lot of trouble for your bosses if notified of the problems. Make it clear to that "scariest" senior manager that the choice isn't between correcting the problems or shutting you up. The only choice is fixing the problems with or without government notification.
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You need to consider the consequences of your actions or inaction, not only to yourself but to those who buy your product believing it is safe. If a co-worker or customer gets hurt, is that a consequence you can live with? If you have to look for employment elsewhere, is that a consequence you can live with?
Sounds to me like you should be looking for employment alternatives in any case...
Whatever you chose to do, or not to do, good luck!
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You have to make a decision, Plawranc. Is it more important to tell what's going on and put your job at risk, IF you can't prove your assertions. If you can, you are protected under Federal whistleblower laws. The problem with those is that you have to be able to prove retribution on the part of your employer. The system is set up to favor the employers, unfortunately.
If memory serves, I don't believe that Plawranc is protected by US law.
Do your best to ensure that you have witnesses nearby at all times. They may not support you afterwards - in fact, usually they won't because they're fearful of their own employment prospects - but management has to take their presence into account.
If you're convinced that your co-worker is telling you the truth (and that he/she actually knows the truth), it can't hurt you to consult with a mouthpiece for half an hour or so. Even aborigine law offers some protection in these circumstances, and its useful for bullies to know that you have backup.
- oldman
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This topic could easily turn into a political discussion. Do not get suckered into it as the consequences for the responder are just as dire as it is for the one who starts it.
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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CF8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whistleblowers.gov%2F&ei=8nneUvO1DtLnsASUkYHADg&usg=AFQjCNHqviUwwl-12pj4Zl9i0CAUvMXP9w&sig2=38d2JOynDJfCRhm5am7keA&bvm=bv.59568121,d.cWc
http://www.dol.gov/compliance/laws/comp-whistleblower.htm
Here's a couple of articles to peruse.
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Osha, epa, etc
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You should stand your ground but do it correctly. As stated, OSHA, FDA, etc. If the initial reaction from management is to "scare" you then you need to involve outside parties and let them do their jobs.
I contacted OSHA after getting hurt by an overhead crane with faulty brakes. They knew it was me that called but management also knew they couldn't touch me without retaliation on a federal level.
You should still begin looking for other employment though, if for no other reason than it sounds like a disgusting, careless and potentially dangerous job.
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Find out the laws in your country. They're probably a little different than what people are quoting for the US.
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1 go rogue
2 take out the bad guys
3 ???
4 save the mother f****n day
:noid u didnt hear it from me.
complete your mission the world depends on it.
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Ask for more money...
in all seriousness... don't be pushed about if you feel it is a serious breach of protocol.... Be sure within yourself that you are seeing the whole picture from an unbiased view (difficult being employed) and not mostly a personal grievance about the way you see it..as if it does become a sh!7 storm an impartial intermediate won't be looking at you or them...it will only look at legally binding (constitutional) documentation...
Think about the implications of the entire process about to happen...and as said prior...can you live with the consequences..good, bad or indifferent.
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How is the company doing? One of the indications of a company in trouble is when they start to make shortcuts in areas like that. Short term cost savings seems appealing to less than competent managers when things start to go downhill in a company.
That may or may not be the reason. But it's worth thinking about for your own future.
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That's a tough situation. I can't offer any insight, but will wish you the best of luck.
(Also, if the big manager tries to fight you stomp on his toes and then kick him in the balls. It works.)
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Joe Strummer said "When I get aggression, I give it two times back."
So if big scary monster supervisor tries throwing his weight around, give him hell. Sometimes it's enough to let someone know you won't be moved, and they back off. Whatever the circumstances, Fear will paralyze you and make your decision harder if you let it. Try to think and act according to what's important to you.
Hope it goes well for you, sir.
<S>
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well I will tell you from my PERSONAL experience with this, be carefull on how you approach this. I called OSHA when I was at my present employer, they showed up and the company got all kinds of fines and stuff. Well because I knew they were doing this and that wrong I was easily read and they figured out who called, no I didnt tell anyone that I called my actions I guess spoke louder than words. but any ways, yes you are protected by retaliation laws, BUT you are not protected by them nit picking EVERY little thing that you do untill they have enough to fire you with. From the time I called OSHA and the time they showed up-about 2 weeks, then about 5 months later I was fired. I got nit picked on every little thing I did, it took about 3 weeks after they showed up to pin it on me. so BEFORE you call make sure that you don't have the same kinda DGAF attitude like I did because it will bite you. now that I dont work there hahaha everyone knows because I told them that I called the day I was let go
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(Also, if the big manager tries to fight you stomp on his toes and then kick him in the balls. It works.)
:rofl in the short term it gets them out of your face. I told my old boss if he didnt get out of my face and stop yelling at me in front of other employees none the less, that he was going to be sh@#ing his teeth, ya doesnt go over well :rofl
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(http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/filepicker%2F8ZDhYfTT3ubodfG7QsUc_snitches_get_stitches.jpg)
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I suggest doing the moral, ethical thing. You can sleep at night better even without a job.
Grandma always summed it up better "Follow your heart, because at the end of the day, moments before you fall asleep, the day's events will come flooding through your mind"
If it ends up that you lose your job, you can find another. And that would actually look GOOD on a resume if I were interviewing you because we look for ethical people this day and age. (That is something that is hard to come by)
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Don't let anyone bully you into shutting up. Don't let anyone bully you, ever, in any aspect of life.
Who knows what they might do in the future, once they think you are a pushover. Not a good position to be in with anyone.
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Be ready to place your phone on record.
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If it's reached this stage, you are likely doomed anyway. Take it from someone who's been there.
Might as well go down swinging....but that's a choice you need to make based on your personal situation.
And yes, workplace protection laws will postpone the inevitable, but no more than that. Whistleblower laws and whatnot are all great on paper...but as others have pointed out if they want you gone they will be able to come up with an approach to do so that will minimize their risk.
Good luck sir. :salute
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It would be better if you could provide some more details, your description is fairly vague. Are you responsible in your position to maintain a code compliance? Are you performing your tasks to established protocols and are noticing others are not? Are these things you notice a life and safety issue? For example, could someone get hurt or sick because of these lapses?
Also, are you certain that compliance isn't being met outside of what you see. For example, you're maybe not privy to the contracts between your company and the customer, perhaps what you see as a lapse is actually an agreed upon contract/procedure change?
First thing I would do is document it in a memo what you have seen to the senior supervisor and copy your HR department if you have one.
Keep it positive, maybe this is an opportunity for you to get a promotion.
"I know our company strives to provide our loyal customers with an outstanding product and I have noticed some lapses in our established protocols. I wanted to bring this to your attention in case you felt any corrective action needs to be taken on our part."
"I noticed we do not do such and such anymore, is this a new procedure?"
Then I would document in a private log book everything you saw and when you saw/see it.
Last piece of advice, if you aren't really that worried about it, if it is a minor thing, drop it.
If it is a major thing, and you want to pursue it further, take a one hour consult with a labor law specialist in your area. Pay for a half our consult, tell him everything and hear what they say. I'm sure they can give you more sound advice than what you are getting here.
Good luck, let us know what happened.
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1. You should be talking to an attorney and not on a public site.
2. You can always talk this over with the Unemployment Office. The Unemployment Office keeps records of disputes and the last thing a company needs is to create a list of negative marks.
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1. You should be talking to an attorney and not on a public site.
2. You can always talk this over with the Unemployment Office. The Unemployment Office keeps records of disputes and the last thing a company needs is to create a list of negative marks.
What he said, and keep a log.
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yeah I agree with shuffler, be ready to put phone on record, never know what might be said. I would say that your days are numbered as they already have you singled out just as I was, I expected to get fired just a matter of when. I also agree that a few more details would be helpful, some good ideas here, logs, pics, anything that you can document. IMHO I would be looking for another job just from my past experience, you're singled out just as I was. Not sure of what the job is or what you do, but after I was singled out as I said, EVERY little thing I did wrong, or not to the boss mans liking, I got repremanded for. I think they wanted me to quit, so be prepared for that as well. good luck sir :salute
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1 go rogue
2 take out the bad guys
3 ???
4 save the mother f****n day
:noid u didnt hear it from me.
complete your mission the world depends on it.
this
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/filepicker%2F8ZDhYfTT3ubodfG7QsUc_snitches_get_stitches.jpg)
and this
but I'm not a good person to take advice from when it comes to employment.
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Joe Strummer said "When I get aggression, I give it two times back."
So if big scary monster supervisor tries throwing his weight around, give him hell. Sometimes it's enough to let someone know you won't be moved, and they back off. Whatever the circumstances, Fear will paralyze you and make your decision harder if you let it. Try to think and act according to what's important to you.
Hope it goes well for you, sir.
<S>
confronting supervisors is a sure way to get fired. they can just claim this little thing called insubordination.
semp
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I vote you go with the "Office Space" defense. Use as many of the one liners from the film as possible in any and all discussions with the "scariest manager".
Seriously, the best thing you can do regardless of whatever route you choose, is to record, record, record. Get yourself a tiny recording device, there are many surveillance online companies that sell them, and have it recording both your telephone and face to face conversations. My father told me from the thousands of cases he's been involved with that most of the "winners" in your position have one thing in common, and that's both electronic and handwritten records of events. Everything else is either "hear/say" or your word vs. somebody else. Also, do NOT make it common knowledge that you are recording, if you aren't obligated to.
Take the advice of a previous poster, and if you're serious about this, get expert advice first, then decide what route to take without taking anything from all of us in the peanut gallery too seriously. That said, I still recommend you protect yourself by recording as much as possible. People will say all kinds of things, from threats to lies, and then deny it with the most solemn and straight face you can imagine later under oath.
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As a Mechanic safety is of utmost importance. I don't know what dangers are at your workplace or who they affect. I will never compromise on certain things.
When a customer suggests we just patch up his fuel line or brake line we refuse. Liability belongs to the company unless you are involved in it. I don't want to appear in court with a judge asking why something was done incorrectly.
If your company makes or packages food for others to consume and they are ignoring standards that are going to impact others I would feel it my duty to society to expose it. Many will just turn their heads and keep quiet but as the saying goes, "Evil Triumphs When Good People Do Nothing."
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I agree 100% with this ^^^^^ safety was what I reported to OSHA, but it wasn't the short term safety it was dealing with asbestos, and not following state protocol. Maybe, since you have discussed this with other employess, you should all TALK to management about the situation. maybe that would make a difference, but it would take everyone to stand together IMHO.
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Be ready to place your phone on record.
be very careful in recording conversations. I know here in my area (Saskatchewan, Canada) it is illegal to record unknowing participants. For my job, i have to do site inspections and functionality meetings where I use my smart phone to record the conversation to ensure I don't miss anything. Problem is, I MUST inform and request their permission to do so, otherwise I could be in serious trouble.
Sounds like you're stuck between moral code and subjugation. Do some research to protect yourself would be the best advice I can give. Oh and always have information in writing. Instead of verbally discussing the issue, obtain records of the discussions, e-mail is a great tool in this regard.
example:
"Further to our discussion regarding the failure to comply with standard xxx......."
Hope you make out ok and don't lose your job because of what you believe is right....
-KB
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In the US we can record ppl whether they are aware or not, and often it can be a binding piece of evidence. Freedom of speech and freedom to insert foot in mouth.
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In the US we can record ppl whether they are aware or not, and often it can be a binding piece of evidence. Freedom of speech and freedom to insert foot in mouth.
Don't count on this. It isn't true in Pennsylvania, for example.
See, e.g., http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=199
- oldman
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There are several states where it is not legal for you to record another without them first being aware that they are being recorded.
Honestly though you have already been singled out. If a surprise OSHA inspection happens now regardless of weather you complained to them or not the company will assume it was you, and 6 months down the road will find a perfectly legitimate reason to fire you. I would start looking for another job, and once hired if you are truly concerned for the safety of your former coworkers then make a call to OSHA.
Of course this all assumes you are in the US if not then I have no clue about how it would work out in your country.
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Surfinn, what states? Show me the State statutes where it is illegal to record someone without their knowledge when they have approached you and are voluntarily engaging you in conversation, like in Plawnranc's case, demanding he speak with them as an employee. Wiretapping is not the same thing as this. The PA law above mentions "general rule" about electronic surveillance, which this is may or may not be, it does mention recording in following paragraphs, but what is a "general rule?" A "general rule" is not necessarily a law, In this case, the recording of communication is for the protection of the individual doing the recording.
Also, most importantly about the link above, is: 'The following article was written by the late Eric M. Noonan, Assistant Executive Deputy Attorney General.' And it is 15 years old.
There are laws that protect employees, citizens and subjects that are not applicable to other types of parties. The mention of 41 other states in the PA AG Assistant's article link above does not state which other states they are referring to, nor their nature, simply that other states have them. The PA law MAY allow such evidence to be disregarded, but without reading the whole thing, which I have no interest in doing so atm...I would imagine employees might not lose their evidence if they are recording their employer under whistle-blower law, if there is not an exception for this then - It sucks to be someone in this position in PA.
However, Plawnrac is in WI iirc and hasn't answered anybody since starting this thread, a wise choice btw. But without further knowledge, we really have only a very vague idea of what he's talking about.
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http://wiretapping.uslegal.com/state-laws/
wow I did not know that recording a conversation was illegal between two people face to face. I know thats why a lot of businesses say this phone call maybe recorded, so you have the option to hang up lol
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Florida
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Also, most importantly about the link above, is: 'The following article was written by the late Eric M. Noonan, Assistant Executive Deputy Attorney General.' And it is 15 years old.
And the law is even older than that. You could follow the citation listed in the AG's summary if you'd like:
18 Pa.C.S.A. § 5703. Interception, disclosure or use of wire, electronic or oral communications.
Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, a person is guilty of a felony of the third degree if he:
(1) intentionally intercepts, endeavors to intercept, or procures any other person to intercept or endeavor to intercept any wire, electronic or oral communication;
(2) intentionally discloses or endeavors to disclose to any other person the contents of any wire, electronic or oral communication, or evidence derived therefrom, knowing or having reason to know that the information was obtained through the interception of a wire, electronic or oral communication; or
(3) intentionally uses or endeavors to use the contents of any wire, electronic or oral communication, or evidence derived therefrom, knowing or having reason to know, that the information was obtained through the interception of a wire, electronic or oral communication.
You may peruse the various exceptions in Section 5704. Pennsylvania's crime code can be found in any number of places; here's one example: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/CT/HTM/18/18.HTM
- oldman
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If you need your job keep your mouth shut :old:
When you have lots of money help other people :old:
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Have the pros from dover arrived yet?
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Yes
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health and safety protocols and food safety protocols are being ignored.
If you call the Dept. of Public Health on a business, you better make damn sure it is anonymously or in the guise of a customer who saw something. If it is linked backed to you, getting another job in the food service industry could be very difficult.
People that work food service in my area have told me that that getting another job would be close to impossible as restaurant managers often collaborate. Yes, it is illegal but reality doesn't always follow the law.
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I know here in my area (Saskatchewan, Canada)
That's not what the criminal code says. My father was a cop in SK for a time while teaching at Depot there. If you are one of the people involved in the conversation, you aren't obligated to tell anyone. Only if you record other parties who aren't aware of being recorded, ie, you plant a bug or a phone or something, and aren't a part of the conversation, does it become illegal wiretapping, recording, and interceptions according to the law.. Example is recording your wife's phone calls to see if she is having an affair - that is illegal in SK and the rest of Canada. You recording conversations between you and her about your upcoming divorce, you aren't obligated to tell her you're recording. You may have to advise others in your line of work due to company policy or something, but legally speaking, if you say one word in that conversation, or are even just present for it, you are under no legal obligation to do so in Canada.
This has been challenged before in Canada, but is still law. Here is an example of one such challenge back in 1995 that failed to change to law.
In La Compagnie D’Assurance Standard Life v. Renald Rouleau, [1995] R.J.Q. 1407 at para. 19 (S.C.) the Quebec Superior Court held that an employer surreptitiously recording telephone conversations with an ex-employee was not a violation of s. 184 of the Criminal Code.
This is why I said "if you're obligated" in my original post about recording, it varies greatly state by state in the USA, in Canada it is federal law and the criminal code that covers this, even though there have been challenges brought in provincial court, but that is usually just a route to federal supreme court, and like I said, has always failed to change things.
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And the law is even older than that. You could follow the citation listed in the AG's summary if you'd like:
18 Pa.C.S.A. § 5703. Interception, disclosure or use of wire, electronic or oral communications.
Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, a person is guilty of a felony of the third degree if he:
(1) intentionally intercepts, endeavors to intercept, or procures any other person to intercept or endeavor to intercept any wire, electronic or oral communication;
(2) intentionally discloses or endeavors to disclose to any other person the contents of any wire, electronic or oral communication, or evidence derived therefrom, knowing or having reason to know that the information was obtained through the interception of a wire, electronic or oral communication; or
(3) intentionally uses or endeavors to use the contents of any wire, electronic or oral communication, or evidence derived therefrom, knowing or having reason to know, that the information was obtained through the interception of a wire, electronic or oral communication.
You may peruse the various exceptions in Section 5704. Pennsylvania's crime code can be found in any number of places; here's one example: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/CT/HTM/18/18.HTM
- oldman
I think the law was meat for intercepting somebody conversation that you arent a party to. just recently somebody tried to make it a felony even if you are part of the conversaton but not sure how that went.
semp
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I think the law was meat for intercepting somebody conversation that you arent a party to. just recently somebody tried to make it a felony even if you are part of the conversaton but not sure how that went.
No. Just....no (tm GScholtz).
As someone already mentioned, the wiretap laws vary greatly state by state. Federal law only requires that one party to the conversation knows that it's being recorded - like, duh, the guy who's doing the recording. Pennsylvania, and other states, have much stricter laws. You won't get indicted here by the feds, but you WILL get indicted by the county. I like to think that's the way it should be.
- oldman
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As it is written, only the 3rd part of the statute relates to this matter. The idea that this person is 'use'ing or intends to 'use' this 'wire' communication, is not expanded upon as to what the word "use" constitutes. The judge and attorneys would argue that point about the law and the word use.
Gray.
Obviously it would have to be an egregious violation for the average person to want to put themselves in this position. However, if he's goes and sees an employment attorney that believes he has the right to "use" "wire" communication to protect himself against unlawful termination, that would be worth watching argued in court. Is there no revised statute of this statute you've provided, or is this the law in its current form?
The funny thing is that if this is indeed how it is in PA, then simply showing the person intimidating you the microphone every time they appear would keep the conversation from ever happening.
Surfin: where's the FL statute related to the matter? If you're sure, I'd like to see it.
Good points though and the OP would be wise to know the exact law(s) regarding his situation; best explained by an employment lawyer.
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No. Just....no (tm GScholtz).
:D
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As it is written, only the 3rd part of the statute relates to this matter. The idea that this person is 'use'ing or intends to 'use' this 'wire' communication, is not expanded upon as to what the word "use" constitutes. The judge and attorneys would argue that point about the law and the word use.
I give up.
- oldman