Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: projoe on January 30, 2014, 08:22:56 PM
-
Actually ran into a Mustang that wanted a fight. I was 10k he was 12k...ahh he's gonna make a guns blazing pass then run like hell....nope....I nosed dwn lil bit and he went straight up....Can't out turn him....Can't out roll him....Can't out climb him...Can't out run him...what to do what to do...ended up going straight up with him...stalled out....went straight dwn with chopped throttle to see if he would overshoot....he didn't....we ended up on the deck for several minutes before he got me...except for the big guns the tiffy has no advantages over a fighting stang....he pretty much dictated the whole fight....any pointers on what a tiffy driver might do??
-
If you're in a typhoon and you don't have E, you're pretty much screwed. Sorry bud, but typhoons are just a tasty snack for pretty much any fighter once you get them on the deck.
-
I don't fly either of those planes much but one thing is turn right. It will be easier for you and harder for him, especially if you're both at stall at the top of a loop but you'll have to use a good amount of rudder in the Typhoon. If you do get pulled into a left turn reduce throttle long enough to get it around.
The big torque in the Typhie can work for you or against you. Make it work for you and not against you.
I'd also get the fight to the deck as quickly as possible. The Typhie works best down low. Keep your speed up as acceleration is moderate at best. I didn't look it up but IIRC speeds are pretty close on the deck so you may be able to use that to reset.
-
I don't fly either of those planes much but one thing is turn right. It will be easier for you and harder for him, especially if you're both at stall at the top of a loop but you'll have to use a good amount of rudder in the Typhoon. If you do get pulled into a left turn reduce throttle long enough to get it around.
The big torque in the Typhie can work for you or against you. Make it work for you and not against you.
I'd also get the fight to the deck as quickly as possible. The Typhie works best down low. Keep your speed up as acceleration is moderate at best. I didn't look it up but IIRC speeds are pretty close on the deck so you may be able to use that to reset.
P-51 out accelerates the Typhoon though, IIRC. The P-51 will have the edge in the E-game on the deck.
Not 100% sure, but I think the P-51 will turn inside the Typhoon on the deck as well, though I could be wrong.
-
According to Dokgonzo's fighter comparison, the Typhie has a smaller no-flaps and full-flaps turn radius. The problem could be the P-51 having flaps more useful at a higher speed.
Also, the Typhie is slightly faster than the P-51 below 5K and accelerates better on the deck.
-
Most my losses occurs when I get the plane I have chosen out of its element. I keep telling myself don't do it but that little, inside devil wins all too often.
-
Tiffie has a slight edge in speed and the P=51D has a very slight edge in climb and acceleration down low, and as said, turn to the right.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=21&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=0&p2=21&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
-
Most my losses occurs when I get the plane I have chosen out of its element. I keep telling myself don't do it but that little, inside devil wins all too often.
You have to admit its more fun. Its an easy road to sit up high and BnZ planes below you, but a much harder one to start maneuvering with them.
-
You have to admit its more fun. Its an easy road to sit up high and BnZ planes below you, but a much harder one to start maneuvering with them.
You are right there but I keep taking a fighter suited for BnZ into a furball filled with turney planes. It always turns ugly. :aok
-
I don't think the graphs represent well how hard the matchup is for the typhie. Kermit does give me a lot of trouble with his, but he has to fly very well to do so, while I'm pretty much on auto pilot in my 51.
-
Think the shell shocker was a willing p51...and I have to admit I didn't think to turn him to the right.
Thanks for the replys :salute
-
Actually ran into a Mustang that wanted a fight. I was 10k he was 12k...ahh he's gonna make a guns blazing pass then run like hell....nope....I nosed dwn lil bit and he went straight up....Can't out turn him....Can't out roll him....Can't out climb him...Can't out run him...what to do what to do...ended up going straight up with him...stalled out....went straight dwn with chopped throttle to see if he would overshoot....he didn't....we ended up on the deck for several minutes before he got me...except for the big guns the tiffy has no advantages over a fighting stang....he pretty much dictated the whole fight....any pointers on what a tiffy driver might do??
Did you happen to save a film of this engagement, Projoe?
Posting a film would allow for an even more specific review of things you might have done differently in that fight (in addition to the idea of generally turning to the right, which is good advice).
<S>
Ryno
-
No I didn't Ryno...wished I did...it was a very fun fight when we got on the deck, it lasted for several minutes...but again it was mostly defensive flying on my part and was just trying to rack my brain on what advantages the tif would have had against a well flown stang.
-
I can't understand why it is so hard to find a willing 51, it's a great fighter and can be had much fun with if flown proper. I am still learning it myself, but I allready have alot of fun in it. In the beginning I was afraid to engage the yak3 when it first was presented in AH, it seemed to turn on a dime. Now I think the yak3 is one of the tastier little planes to engage in my 51, they can actually be beaten. :x
But as a tiffy driver against the willing 51 I'd have to say keep your speed, you will outrun the 51 if you are not too slow to begin with. Or do highspeed turns, ride the tunnel. Seems like the tiffy turns inside the 51 if the speed is in the 280-300 range, but in slower speeds you will have to start making use of that proptorque, the 51 driver will have to chop trottle to make the plane whip over to the right. If you plan your move down low, doing rolling scissors to the right chances are big the 51pilot will chop his trottle one time too much when low and not be able to regain control before he crashes.. That's one way to do it. :aok
-
I can't understand why it is so hard to find a willing 51, it's a great fighter and can be had much fun with if flown proper.
Because it is the second worst turning fighter in the game, right after Fw-190s? Wait, I guess now with the Me-410 it'll probably be third.
-
Because it is the second worst turning fighter in the game, right after Fw-190s? Wait, I guess now with the Me-410 it'll probably be third.
I don't agree, I am not saying it's a turny plane. But it can be turned with many of the best if you just know how to snap up some E here and there during the fight. It is challenging, but that's the fun part of it I think. :)
-
I don't agree, I am not saying it's a turny plane. But it can be turned with many of the best if you just know how to snap up some E here and there during the fight. It is challenging, but that's the fun part of it I think. :)
Agreed, and I think that is where the issue with ponies running comes from. Most people believe like BnZs said, "Because it is the second worst turning fighter in the game". If you push it a bit and is a decent turning plane, one of the best at speed. The biggest trick is just knowing when to turn and by how much.
-
Because it is the second worst turning fighter in the game, right after Fw-190s? Wait, I guess now with the Me-410 it'll probably be third.
Those lists of turn rate and turn radius are irrelevant in 90% of the actual fights. They list radii and turn rates at different speeds to each plane, assuming sustained turns. A turning fight is not flying round and round at the slowest speed you can manage. In addition, the planes are not making sustained turns, almost never. If the turns are prolonged it almost always include the loss of altitude and will not match the results for sustained turns. Finally, even if the planes are at 0 altitude, slow, and turning as hard as they can, they are most likely NOT flying around the same circle, and getting a gun solution is not simply flying around the circle till the enemy is infront of you.
The sooner a player realizes this, the better player he becomes and less shocked when a P-47 "outturns" his Spitfire, or a Mosquito hangs with his Yak3 in a turn and pulls a lead.
-
Those lists of turn rate and turn radius are irrelevant in 90% of the actual fights. They list radii and turn rates at different speeds to each plane, assuming sustained turns. A turning fight is not flying round and round at the slowest speed you can manage. In addition, the planes are not making sustained turns, almost never. If the turns are prolonged it almost always include the loss of altitude and will not match the results for sustained turns. Finally, even if the planes are at 0 altitude, slow, and turning as hard as they can, they are most likely NOT flying around the same circle, and getting a gun solution is not simply flying around the circle till the enemy is infront of you.
The sooner a player realizes this, the better player he becomes and less shocked when a P-47 "outturns" his Spitfire, or a Mosquito hangs with his Yak3 in a turn and pulls a lead.
Agreed. Turn charts are a guide, not an answer.
- oldman
-
Agreed, and I think that is where the issue with ponies running comes from. Most people believe like BnZs said, "Because it is the second worst turning fighter in the game". If you push it a bit and is a decent turning plane, one of the best at speed. The biggest trick is just knowing when to turn and by how much.
Nope, you can't "push" a plane and make it turn better than the interaction of lift, weight, thrust, and drag allow. Physics is not altered by gumption.
This saying a plane "turns well at speed" is almost meaningless* because every plane in AHII turns about as well at the 250+ mph where all turn is g-limited anyway. A Pony a Typh a Spit a 190 pulling 5gs at 300mph are all producing the same rate and radius of turn.
You can fly an angles fight *less badly* than the other guy, and I frequently do in the Pony, but that is mainly because the other guy isn't managing his own speed well. The sort of thing that is above the pay grade of the average MA stick. I've flown a lot of planes into seas of red in furball lake, my way of wringing them out, and I gotta say the P-47D-11 is no question better for such operations than the Pony.
The good thing about the Pony is that it can generally force/deny the engagement, and given an "in" to gain position, it is such a good gun platform that it stands a chance of getting a lethal shot on anything in the game in a 1v1. But the Pony driver who isn't certain certain he is in a 1v1 can easily get in trouble killing speed to get that one shot in, because once slow and cornered it has far fewer abilities than most fighters in the game and it doesn't accelerate back to high speed all that quickly. This is why the average MA stick flies the stick nearly in trans-sonic most of the time :devil, but its okay, people would find Ponies even more annoying if they were ubiquitous AND being flown well. ;)
-
Those lists of turn rate and turn radius are irrelevant in 90% of the actual fights. They list radii and turn rates at different speeds to each plane, assuming sustained turns. A turning fight is not flying round and round at the slowest speed you can manage. In addition, the planes are not making sustained turns, almost never. If the turns are prolonged it almost always include the loss of altitude and will not match the results for sustained turns. Finally, even if the planes are at 0 altitude, slow, and turning as hard as they can, they are most likely NOT flying around the same circle, and getting a gun solution is not simply flying around the circle till the enemy is infront of you.
The sooner a player realizes this, the better player he becomes and less shocked when a P-47 "outturns" his Spitfire, or a Mosquito hangs with his Yak3 in a turn and pulls a lead.
This is spot on what I am trying to say too.. Once you learn the P51 you will be able to know ahead of each turn where the enemy will be at and use lag turns where needed, and pull full flaps and lead in just the right time to get yourself in position to fire turn after turn. Even against a yak3. You can even lock onto the 6 of a yak3 in a P51 and stay there through all kinds of moves if you just know the plane and use trottle/flaps and rudder correctly, and don't have a full tank of fuel.
Perhaps not with the best yak3 pilots in the game, but you can still pose a huge threat and cause them to make mistakes.
I have often chopped trottle and used full rudder+flaps to avoid an overshoot, just to find that the yak3 is having a very hard time to shake me off after that.
-
Nope, you can't "push" a plane and make it turn better than the interaction of lift, weight, thrust, and drag allow. Physics is not altered by gumption.
This saying a plane "turns well at speed" is almost meaningless* because every plane in AHII turns about as well at the 250+ mph where all turn is g-limited anyway. A Pony a Typh a Spit a 190 pulling 5gs at 300mph are all producing the same rate and radius of turn.
You can fly an angles fight *less badly* than the other guy, and I frequently do in the Pony, but that is mainly because the other guy isn't managing his own speed well. The sort of thing that is above the pay grade of the average MA stick. I've flown a lot of planes into seas of red in furball lake, my way of wringing them out, and I gotta say the P-47D-11 is no question better for such operations than the Pony.
The good thing about the Pony is that it can generally force/deny the engagement, and given an "in" to gain position, it is such a good gun platform that it stands a chance of getting a lethal shot on anything in the game in a 1v1. But the Pony driver who isn't certain certain he is in a 1v1 can easily get in trouble killing speed to get that one shot in, because once slow and cornered it has far fewer abilities than most fighters in the game and it doesn't accelerate back to high speed all that quickly. This is why the average MA stick flies the stick nearly in trans-sonic most of the time :devil, but its okay, people would find Ponies even more annoying if they were ubiquitous AND being flown well. ;)
You can push a plane farther than MOST cartoon pilots do, because MOST cartoon pilots believe that a pony can't turn, is the point I'm trying to make.
The point of turning at speed means if your in a 190 and doing 350 and a pony doing 350 the pony is going to do better in the turn. Yes once they slow down they are are pretty much the same. Again, the point is a good cartoon pilot will "push" the envelope where a newb wouldn't because he is under the impression that it can't do that.
-
I love the P51D but it is Yak3 food once both get under 200mph. Can't run from it can't turn with it..not unlike the 109K4
-
The point of turning at speed means if your in a 190 and doing 350 and a pony doing 350 the pony is going to do better in the turn.
No, the Pony is not doing better at the turn. At that speed the limitation both face is the 5g blackout limit. The same speed and same G load in a turn=the same rate and radius, no matter which aircraft are involved. The immutable laws of aerodynamics dictate this. Look it up.
The only exception to this would be a plane with bad high-speed control authority which didn't have the ability to pull high Gs at speed, such as a 109 at 400mph IAS.
-
The 5G blackout can only be sustained for so long unless in a dive, it's when the speed drops just below that point the P51 can kick in the highspeed flaps and keep riding the tunnel.
-
The 5G blackout can only be sustained for so long unless in a dive, it's when the speed drops just below that point the P51 can kick in the highspeed flaps and keep riding the tunnel.
Both planes are way above their corner velocity, the one that dumps speed fastest here will gain initial angles. The P-51 has a 5g corner of about 250 in AHII, the 190s will be a little higher, don't really know. But yeah, once it gets down there, those flaps are huge advantage over the 190.
-
Both planes are way above their corner velocity, the one that dumps speed fastest here will gain initial angles. The P-51 has a 5g corner of about 250 in AHII, the 190s will be a little higher, don't really know. But yeah, once it gets down there, those flaps are huge advantage over the 190.
Your missing the point, a skilled cartoon pilot will push that limit where as the newb will not and only run because he doesn't think it can go there.
-
I hate to...but I must...the P51 is definitely not a zero....but by far is it one of the worst "turners" hell the flaps come out at 300.....
it is great at high speed maneuvers,one of the best..... it is good at slow speed maneuvers....
if anyone thinks the 51 cant turn fight...they should go back and tell Oldemon that :rofl
spend enough time in it...actually fighting and not just lazy Bnzing...you will find the 51 a very capable bird.
-
I feel like the P-51 is out of its element TnB'ing. Sure it can do it, but its going to die a lot more.
-
I feel like the P-51 is out of its element TnB'ing. Sure it can do it, but its going to die a lot more.
well ya..it was designed for speed.....but like any fighter in this game...givin enough time it can do wonders...
OlDemon is a perfect example of that with the 51....he seriously made that 51 dance like no other....I remember fighting him on the deck and he is fighting...turn fighting my Hurri..... :O I was very impressed with what he could do with that plane.
and then there is M00t with the 152..... :O
-
SkatSr was a wicked good P-51 turn fighter. There have been others as well.
A very good P-51 pilot will give any plane in the arena a difficult challenge without running away. So will a very good Jug pilot or a very good 190 pilot, none of which are considered turn fighters.
Once you get it out of your head that a plane can't turn and start thinking in three dimensions using three axis you'll be amazed at what it can do.
-
well ya..it was designed for speed.....but like any fighter in this game...givin enough time it can do wonders...
OlDemon is a perfect example of that with the 51....he seriously made that 51 dance like no other....I remember fighting him on the deck and he is fighting...turn fighting my Hurri..... :O I was very impressed with what he could do with that plane.
and then there is M00t with the 152..... :O
See, you're confusing things. They maneuver, yes, but they don't turn fight.
From what I remember of my few encounters with moot, he uses the vertical a lot more than he uses flat turns.
-
See, you're confusing things. They maneuver, yes, but they don't turn fight.
From what I remember of my few encounters with moot, he uses the vertical a lot more than he uses flat turns.
I am not confusing anything :aok
I know what TnB is and BnZ...both I mentioned TnBed in their perspective rides...
notice I didnt mention "steve" in the 51? even though he was the very tops in that plane....but he used it for what it was designed...he stayed fast but also flew aggressive...in other words he didnt make a pass go 4K away and then come back...He knew how to do proper BnZin in one of the best planes for that....
OlDemon TURN fought the 51
there is more to TURN fighting then the very basic simple flat turn.
-
in other words he didnt make a pass go 4K away and then come back...He knew how to do proper BnZin in one of the best planes for that....
I beg to differ. I think Steve killed me twice. Both times he ran until I turned around then came back and picked me while I was engaged with someone else. AKDG used to do the exact same thing.
-
I beg to differ. I think Steve killed me twice. Both times he ran until I turned around then came back and picked me while I was engaged with someone else. AKDG used to do the exact same thing.
maybe you got him on a bad day....
I know I have fought him a few times..and being a squady I know how he flew. :aok
-
I hate to...but I must...the P51 is definitely not a zero....but by far is it one of the worst "turners" hell the flaps come out at 300.....
Every single engined fighter except the 190 family can make a smaller turn radius than the P-51 can. And you have to be careful with those flaps. More than one notch creates a great deal of drag and reduces your turn rate a lot for not much gain in radius. Widewing did some testing on this you can probably search for on the BBS.
it is great at high speed maneuvers,one of the best..... it is good at slow speed maneuvers....
Again, everything is great at "high speed maneuvers". 5g@300mph IAS is the same whether you'e doing it in a Pony, Corsair, Hurri, P-39, 190, P-47-Whatever. The laws of physics dictate that the same speed and the same G-load=The exact same rate and radius of turn. The P-51 has no special advantage in blackout-riding turns. As for slow speed...the P-51 stalls at 100mph IAS clean. This is just about the highest of prop fighters in the game, except for various 190s (Hint: The stall speed is the minimum airspeed needed for the airframe to generate one G of lift. Study some aerodynamics to grasp the implications) Even with full flaps out I believe the stall speed will still be above 90, and they create massive drag in game. By way of comparison, the Corsair stalls at about 70mph with full flaps.
-
there is more to TURN fighting then the very basic simple flat turn.
The ability to generate more G at lower speed will lead to quicker and smaller turns whether the maneuver is in the horizontal or vertical. Physics is not to be denied.
-
The ability to generate more G at lower speed will lead to quicker and smaller turns whether the maneuver is in the horizontal or vertical. Physics is not to be denied.
Again, the physics are irrelevant. It is what the players perceive they can or can not do with certain planes. This is why you see so many complain "...a pony can't out turn my Nik! ... figgin hack". In the same vein, you will see newbs just run in a pony, because they perceive that that is all it can do.
-
Again, the physics are irrelevant. It is what the players perceive they can or can not do with certain planes. This is why you see so many complain "...a pony can't out turn my Nik! ... figgin hack". In the same vein, you will see newbs just run in a pony, because they perceive that that is all it can do.
The physics may not be relevant to your point but that's not what you first posted. Now you're just saying some players don't know how aircraft turn. What you first posted made it seem that you're one of them. You can clear that up by agreeing with BnZs.
-
Again, the physics are irrelevant. It is what the players perceive they can or can not do with certain planes. This is why you see so many complain "...a pony can't out turn my Nik! ... figgin hack". In the same vein, you will see newbs just run in a pony, because they perceive that that is all it can do.
When that happens it is because the N1k leaves his throttle firewalled and never gets down to its own cornering speed.
-
Every single engined fighter except the 190 family can make a smaller turn radius than the P-51 can. And you have to be careful with those flaps. More than one notch creates a great deal of drag and reduces your turn rate a lot for not much gain in radius. Widewing did some testing on this you can probably search for on the BBS.
Again, everything is great at "high speed maneuvers". 5g@300mph IAS is the same whether you'e doing it in a Pony, Corsair, Hurri, P-39, 190, P-47-Whatever. The laws of physics dictate that the same speed and the same G-load=The exact same rate and radius of turn. The P-51 has no special advantage in blackout-riding turns. As for slow speed...the P-51 stalls at 100mph IAS clean. This is just about the highest of prop fighters in the game, except for various 190s (Hint: The stall speed is the minimum airspeed needed for the airframe to generate one G of lift. Study some aerodynamics to grasp the implications) Even with full flaps out I believe the stall speed will still be above 90, and they create massive drag in game. By way of comparison, the Corsair stalls at about 70mph with full flaps.
:rofl...sorry I dont mean to laugh at you.....but.....
there is no way you can tell me that a 51 and a KI84 has the same turn rate at 450 mph.....
a 51 doing 150 will turn far faster then a zero doing 400.....
a Ki84 doing 450 will never be able to turn as fast as a spit doing 450.....
a bunch of planes get stiff on the controls the faster they go, unlike the 51 the faster it goes the better it handles....same with the 47....and such like that.
tell me I am wrong.....
-
You can easily pull to blackout at 450 MPH in a Ki-84. You won't maneuver as well but your turn rate and radius will match the P-51 at the same speed and G load.
-
You can easily pull to blackout at 450 MPH in a Ki-84. You won't maneuver as well but your turn rate and radius will match the P-51 at the same speed and G load.
(http://memecrunch.com/meme/FPO2/yeah-science/image.png)
-
Ummm...I`m going to have to laugh at laughing at the basic laws of aerodynamics which apply to air combat?
-
You can easily pull to blackout at 450 MPH in a Ki-84. You won't maneuver as well but your turn rate and radius will match the P-51 at the same speed and G load.
so what you guys are saying is that no matter what plane you are in...when you hit the 5g mark...all planes turn rate is the same?
im not trying to be obtuse and my question is not a troll, I want to understand what you are saying.
-
so what you guys are saying is that no matter what plane you are in...when you hit the 5g mark...all planes turn rate is the same?
im not trying to be obtuse and my question is not a troll, I want to understand what you are saying.
Turn rate and radius depends on g and airspeed. More g is good, more airspeed is bad. Best turn is achieved at the minimum speed at which the airplane can pull maximum allowable Gs. About 5 gs is the limit for the cartoon pilot in AH. at 300+ MPH IAS every prop plane in the game is above its cornering velocity and all turns are limited by G load. Since the G load is universally 5, almost all planes turn equally well at these high velocities. The exception are plaNes which have control authority issues preventing them from pulling blackout. But I find this isn`t much of a factor in AHII, even the 109s and Zeros don`t have problems except at speeds usually too impractically high for dogfightinh. Our "pilot" apparently has a lot of upper body strength
-
The physics dictate that any two aircraft flying at a constant 350mph and pulling 5g's will have the same turn radius and rate.
It doesn't matter if Its a P-51, a DrI, or an F-15. Hell, if you get the USS Ronald Reagan going 350mph and put it in a 5g turn, the physics dictate that it will be turning just as tight as the P-51.
-
The physics may not be relevant to your point but that's not what you first posted. Now you're just saying some players don't know how aircraft turn. What you first posted made it seem that you're one of them. You can clear that up by agreeing with BnZs.
Below is my first comment in this thread....
Agreed, and I think that is where the issue with ponies running comes from. Most people believe like BnZs said, "Because it is the second worst turning fighter in the game". If you push it a bit and is a decent turning plane, one of the best at speed. The biggest trick is just knowing when to turn and by how much.
It was in reply to SAJ73 post, "I don't agree, I am not saying it's a turny plane. But it can be turned with many of the best if you just know how to snap up some E here and there during the fight. It is challenging, but that's the fun part of it I think."
I may not have said it well, but if you read the post you can see where the topic is now about being surprised by a pony that turns to fight. It was mentioned that if flown well it can turn with "many of the best". As I thought we were talking about game play due to relative skill levels and the perceived notion that "ponies can't turn" and well fought pony CAN turn and will surprise a player.
That is the only point I'm looking to make here. Newbs believe that ponies can't turn and so run with them.
-
Turn rate and radius depends on g and airspeed. More g is good, more airspeed is bad. Best turn is achieved at the minimum speed at which the airplane can pull maximum allowable Gs. About 5 gs is the limit for the cartoon pilot in AH. at 300+ MPH IAS every prop plane in the game is above its cornering velocity and all turns are limited by G load. Since the G load is universally 5, almost all planes turn equally well at these high velocities. The exception are plaNes which have control authority issues preventing them from pulling blackout. But I find this isn`t much of a factor in AHII, even the 109s and Zeros don`t have problems except at speeds usually too impractically high for dogfightinh. Our "pilot" apparently has a lot of upper body strength
ok I understand....I think.....haha
I know the planes in AH very well.....all the fighters that is....I am not a plane expert by any means and was not a serious plane enthusiast before....I only learned the planes in AH to "know my enemy"
I do know for sure planes turn rates are different at different speeds....such like the zero at high speeds get stiff controls.... 38 compresses...KI84 breaks apart over 500....ECT ECT
it seems weird that a zero at 400 and 5gs has the same turn rate a 51 does at the same G and speed.....
-
Turning hard at such speeds, angles will be gained by whoever drops their speed down closer to corner velocity quickest. Interstingly, high wing-loaded planes have a disadvantage which can become a temporary advantage in this situation: A higher wingloaded plane must use a higher angle of attack to generate the same G, which generates more induced drag. So a 190 pulling max gs at 350 is bleeding more speed off than a Spit doing that same. But if the Spit driver has any sense at all he will be off the throttle and the 190 drivers advantage will be *very* temporary.
-
Turning hard at such speeds, angles will be gained by whoever drops their speed down closer to corner velocity quickest. Interstingly, high wing-loaded planes have a disadvantage which can become a temporary advantage in this situation: A higher wingloaded plane must use a higher angle of attack to generate the same G, which generates more induced drag. So a 190 pulling max gs at 350 is bleeding more speed off than a Spit doing that same. But if the Spit driver has any sense at all he will be off the throttle and the 190 drivers advantage will be *very* temporary.
is there a place that lists the corner speeds of the planes in AH?
-
is there a place that lists the corner speeds of the planes in AH?
When you`re riding the tunnel and hearing the horn tell you that you`re at max aoa simultaneously, there you go. But it won`t last, no plane in the game has the thrust to maintain corner except maybe the 163. That`s why so many tactics like your basic Immelman involve bAnking some E, that`s why you don`t just fly around at corner all the time, and that`s why dogfighting is complicated :)
-
When you`re riding the tunnel and hearing the horn tell you that you`re at max aoa simultaneously, there you go. But it won`t last, no plane in the game has the thrust to maintain corner except maybe the 163. That`s why so many tactics like your basic Immelman involve bAnking some E, that`s why you don`t just fly around at corner all the time, and that`s why dogfighting is complicated :)
and thats why I love dogfighting :D
and thanx for explaining it....even though I had an attitude at first :salute
-
is there a place that lists the corner speeds of the planes in AH?
Find the clean stall speed of the A/C and multiply by 2.44! Why 2.44 because it's the square root of 6,which is the blackout Gload,not 5 G's.
So if a plane stalls at 100mph the corner speed would be 244mph,above that speed you are limited by blackout,below that speed you can stall the plane before you can blackout.
Players often confuse turn rate and turn radious,turn rate would be measured in degrees per second and turn radious would be measure in feet or yards/meters.
:salute
-
Morfiend, on that note, do you know how to calculate the best glide speed for an aircraft?
-
Find the clean stall speed of the A/C and multiply by 2.44! Why 2.44 because it's the square root of 6,which is the blackout Gload,not 5 G's.
So if a plane stalls at 100mph the corner speed would be 244mph,above that speed you are limited by blackout,below that speed you can stall the plane before you can blackout.
Players often confuse turn rate and turn radious,turn rate would be measured in degrees per second and turn radious would be measure in feet or yards/meters.
:salute
sweet
why does the math work? why multiply the Gs?
maybe thats a stupid question.....
I know yes there are stupid questions..... :noid
-
The math works because stall speed varies with weight and you're increasing the stall speed to match the increase in wing load. Corner speed is the stall speed at 6G.
-
The math works because stall speed varies with weight and you're increasing the stall speed to match the increase in wing load. Corner speed is the stall speed at 6G.
So the gravity component in wing-loading is squared? And that is why you use the square root of 6, as that is the maximum G-force that can be maintained without blackout?
-
The math works because stall speed varies with weight and you're increasing the stall speed to match the increase in wing load. Corner speed is the stall speed at 6G.
cc that :salute
-
And the plane with the lower wing loading and stall speed will almost invariably hold the advantage in minimum turn radius. Its turn rate at corner will also be better. But a plane with a heavier wing loading and powerful engine can sometimes generate equal or greater sustained turn rate than one with a lower wing loading by having the thrust to keep on fighting induced drag to generate more G. Turn rate is more important in nose to tail chases, such as two planes chasing each other in a left hand turn. Turn radius and slow flying ability in general is more important in nose-to-nose turning, such as comes up in a flat scissors.
-
Below is my first comment in this thread....
It was in reply to SAJ73 post, "I don't agree, I am not saying it's a turny plane. But it can be turned with many of the best if you just know how to snap up some E here and there during the fight. It is challenging, but that's the fun part of it I think."
I may not have said it well, but if you read the post you can see where the topic is now about being surprised by a pony that turns to fight. It was mentioned that if flown well it can turn with "many of the best". As I thought we were talking about game play due to relative skill levels and the perceived notion that "ponies can't turn" and well fought pony CAN turn and will surprise a player.
That is the only point I'm looking to make here. Newbs believe that ponies can't turn and so run with them.
Yes, I believe it was me who brought this whole thread OT by putting a questionmark to the statement that the only thing 51 pilots do is bnz/run..
I was merely saying that this is not all true, not by all 51 pilots. And the reason for that is not because I think the 51 is a better turner than it actually is. But it might very well be a slightly better turner than the vast majority of AH players might think. IF FLOWN by a pilot that knows his P51 bird inside out, and is not afraid to get it slow while fighting a much better turning plane. The 51 will not have a chance to stay in a flat turning fight with a better turning plane, but it has alot of other tricks in the bag that might come as a surprise to some.
So I am under the impression that we are talking about the same things Fugitive. :salute
To the rest of you..
I don't really care about statistics, graphs and laws of gravity the way you guys have turned this topic. I mean, I am as bound to those laws as anyone. But that is not what I am talking about, that's why you need to know your 51 well, so you don't fly there.. so to speak.
You simply stay in the fight by making your flightpath just as narrow or wide as needed to stay in flight and still stay in the fight. If that makes any sense :old:?
-
And I just hate it when I get the last word in a thread, makes me wonder what I said wrong... :P
:noid :bhead :bolt:
-
And I just hate it when I get the last word in a thread, makes me wonder what I said wrong... :P
:noid :bhead :bolt:
Welcome to the club! Glad to see I'm not the only one killing conversations...