Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: artik on February 03, 2014, 07:34:36 AM
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How do you deal with outclassed planes at LW MA like Zero, F4F, Brewster, Hurricane, P-40 and others of this type?
These planes are mostly outclassed in all possible ways except turn rate.
Some of them are very slow and can be easily outrun by any late war plane like La 7, P-51D, Dora, 109K, Yak-3, Spit XVI and so, however they may be deadly if you are low, slow and turning with some other plane of higher class.
My general method is following, if they are not at 400-600 on your 6 and closing, just ignore them they can do no harm...
However I keep an eye on them so they wouldn't try to sneak out on me when I turn for example in Yak-3 with Pony.
I attack them only if I find no other more interesting targets or they happen to be in favorable position to kill them.
How do you deal with outclassed planes at LW MA?
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If you're a morning time Bish, you fly these planes a lot. I prefer the Brew, F4F or P47-11 (if available) as they're all pretty durable. If defending a base against the horde, I'll up at an adjacent base and grab to 10K-12K and then hunt the stragglers below me. The trick is, get in and get out...once you're in the thick of it, it's chute time.
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You will need to energy fight the Zero, Brew, Hurri in any of those planes listed, albeit the SpitXVI has such a high rate of turn that given any advantage it should be able to stay behind them in turns long enough to get the kill.
Energy fighting means using the vertical to reposition against turns you cannot follow, which in turn means having enough of speed overhead that they cannot follow your aircraft up. You have to be aggressive, you have to force them to bleed off enough speed that they are below corner velocity and easy to hit, and you HAVE to manage your own speed. You can't take a shot with much chance of success if you're going 400 against a 200mph turning bandit. It can be a tough art, you really need to be able to shoot.
Tip: When meeting a turn and burny plane coalt, have good speed, such as at max cruise in a P-51, unload and get below them before you merge. Pull up into them on the merge and many, many times in the MA they will dive almost straight down to meet you coming up. They then have to fight gravity before coming back up, and provided you were fast, you can zoom on them and get top position for your attacks.
Even better against such planes are wingman tactics, almost vital when it is many against many. One AC forces the break turn from the tnb craft and the other figures where it is going to be because of the turn to take a snapshot. Best if you can come in from their bellyside in the turn.
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Try the ME109F-4 even if it is out of the EW arena it is a surprising little war bird. In the right hands it can hold it's own in any arena. Learn to shoot because it has limited ammo but a very good 20MM and it accelerates very well :cheers:
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Altitude
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Umm.. I basically just try not to get shot down by them.. because I've had my arse handed to me several times by these so called "outclassed" fighters
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It's a very well kept secret but all of the best dogfighters are around 25-40 eny. :)
P-38G, P47D25 and D11, Yak7b, Yak9t and 9u... and of course the best fighter in the entire game... 109F4. :devil :aok
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Fighting against them? Keep it fast. Using them myself, alt works wonders for early and mid war aircraft.
Wiley.
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There are no outclassed planes in the MA.
All are very dangerous in the hands of those who have taken the time to learn them intimately
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I don't think the Brew belongs in this list.
:noid
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Brew is very capable.
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I don't think the Brew belongs in this list.
:noid
Brew is very capable.
Its K/D ratio is not significantly different than the A6Ms. I don't find it particularly capable, just often whined about.
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It's a very well kept secret but all of the best dogfighters are around 25-40 eny. :)
P-38G, P47D25 and D11, Yak7b, Yak9t and 9u... and of course the best fighter in the entire game... 109F4. :devil :aok
better than the 202?
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I just feel that most of "outclassed" planes are almost ignorable. I mean I see a fight with F4F, Spit XVI, Pony, 109G/K and Zero. I filter and get look on Spit XVI, Pony, 109G/K only. I fell that they almost not a threat.
I don't ignore them completely but they take a unproportionality small amount of my attention (of course I keep myself fast most of the time).
Does anybody also does it with a success?
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I just feel that most of "outclassed" planes are almost ignorable. I mean I see a fight with F4F, Spit XVI, Pony, 109G/K and Zero. I filter and get look on Spit XVI, Pony, 109G/K only. I fell that they almost not a threat.
I don't ignore them completely but they take a unproportionality small amount of my attention (of course I keep myself fast most of the time).
Does anybody also does it with a success?
Depends if they're above me or not. As far as I'm concerned, the worst place to be in this game is fast, with something twistier than what I'm flying diving in on me from behind.
Wiley.
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:noid You forgot the KI43 :bolt:
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:noid You forgot the KI43 :bolt:
We're talking about planes, not kites! :neener:
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We're talking about planes, not kites! :neener:
Zing :lol
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How do you deal with outclassed planes at LW MA?
same way I deal with other, more late war planes. I shoot them down.
ack-ack
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Its K/D ratio is not significantly different than the A6Ms. I don't find it particularly capable, just often whined about.
The top 2% of players can exploit the plane to its advantages, and hence potent in the hands of a select few. Surprised you haven't found it such, you've been around awhile.
In my experience, it is particularly strong when fought from a defensive posture exploiting roll rate and its highly responsive elevator authority in order to restore E parity and gain guns solution. It actually fits my style pretty well, since I prefer to engage from a less than ideal energy state. The weak snapshot ability and speed hinder it -- but in a straight on furball on the deck, it's highly capable and people don't often see it as an immediate threat which is a definite advantage (compared to a P38, which is targeted right off the bat). It's incredibly forgiving in the stall, it's also a very stable guns platform.
Long but fun fight with the Brew on the deck ended up with 10 kills, don't mean to toot my own horn but a picture is worth a thousand words:
Notice how well it can turn around 180-220mph and maintain E. Just perfect for that kinda fight.
http://john-sanderson.com/files/Aces%20High/misc%20films/brew10.ahf
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In a furball I consider the Brew to be more fo a threat then say a pony.
They are one of those nuisance aircraft. You dont particularly fear them. But you know you cant just ignore them either
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The top 2% of players can exploit the plane to its advantages, and hence potent in the hands of a select few. Surprised you haven't found it such, you've been around awhile.
That is true of every aircraft mentioned in this thread.
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That is true of every aircraft mentioned in this thread.
Thanks for reaffirming my original post :)
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If it can out turn me kill it first, if it can outclimb me kill it first, if it can outrun me kill it first. :aok
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After years of playing this game many become disinterested in flying Low eny planes. Honestly I cant think of one that interests me anymore other then the LA for base defense against a Horde. I love the Brewster most when upping against CV planes and your able to get some air under you. There are some real Gems in the 15 to 30 eny range and a real expert, not saying I am one, can give anyone in a 5 eny plane a hard time. If in fact the pilot of the lower plane decides to fight and not run.
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Thanks for reaffirming my original post :)
When a post mentions the A6M, F4F and Brewster and a bunch of people jump in and say the Brewster shouldn't be in that list I don't think I am out of line saying that it isn't anything special to be singled out from the others. The A6M5b is more of a threat by a significant margin.
When I countered the standard Brewster whining I was not imply that it didn't have strengths to be exploited, simply that it fit right into the OPs list.
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You will need to energy fight the Zero, Brew, Hurri in any of those planes listed, albeit the SpitXVI has such a high rate of turn that given any advantage it should be able to stay behind them in turns long enough to get the kill.
Any Spit 16 driver fool enough to start turn fighting any of those planes will have his a$z handed to him if the pilot of the other plane is even remotely competent. Spit16 might be able to take advantage of its roll rate against the Zeke or Hurri but trying to do so against the Brew is a fools game. Spits, while great turners, are just not in the same league as these three.
Best course of action for a Spit when fighting these three plane types is the same as most every other ride in the planeset i.e. use the vert / stay fast / slash attack or a mixture of these three.
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I just feel that most of "outclassed" planes are almost ignorable.
And this will one day be your undoing.
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And this will one day be your undoing.
that is why I had written "almost" so that I'll keep an eye on them so they wouldn't try to catch me unprepared, but in general I don't feel them like a big threat (unless they have significant E advantage and close to me, than I take them seriously).
However in compatible E positions it is up to me to attack them, disengage or just keep an eye on them while fighting something more interesting/dangerous.
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Speaking as someone who flies the FM2, which I know is technically not on the list, any good BnZ'er can take on the perk farming turn birds as long as he stays fast and has an altitude advantage. The thing is, there are very few good BnZ'ers out there. I'm talking about those like 2cmex who are supernaturally good shots, or RuMaL, who know how to keep pressure on while retaining an e advantage. Some of these planes are so stable you can fly them staring out your rear view, and for me, the typical pony or Dora driver is just an occasional nuisance. My advice: do not take any plane you see for granted. I would not want to face B3Yk in a hurri, Jazzi in an F4F, or surfinn or Candoo in an FM2. These boys fly those birds for a reason and they are very, very good at what they do.
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Artik, if you fly your Yak3 into 3 Brews you can pretty much toy with them and BnZ them till they crash due to dizziness. However, replace one of them with a capable plane like a 109K and the Brews become a worry. The 109 can force you into an E-bleeding fight and the Brews will be all over you. They are dangerous only as a secondary threat, but when they are, they are very dangerous.
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Artik, if you fly your Yak3 into 3 Brews you can pretty much toy with them and BnZ them till they crash due to dizziness. However, replace one of them with a capable plane like a 109K and the Brews become a worry. The 109 can force you into an E-bleeding fight and the Brews will be all over you. They are dangerous only as a secondary threat, but when they are, they are very dangerous.
Quite agree on this...
In generally when I flight with 109K or Pony and I see an opportunistic Brew I take them very seriously because in such a case it can be very dangerous. Especially when each one of them require different method of handling.
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you almost never see any of these planes unless they are scavenging. they let another plane do all the work and come in like heroes and steal the kill.
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Same go for the fw A-series, the guy that can catch you and force you to turn is normally not the guy that get the kill, its the turny plane that gets it.
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you almost never see any of these planes unless they are scavenging. they let another plane do all the work and come in like heroes and steal the kill.
Which is why you should be very wary when engaging one that isn't on the deck scavenging. A rare occurance in the LWMA but not unheard of. I am always a bit cautious when I see one above 5K. It usually means the guy in it likely knows what he is doing.
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you almost never see any of these planes unless they are scavenging. they let another plane do all the work and come in like heroes and steal the kill.
Really? Seems like flying a older/slower plane and beating a higher/faster/better plane, only to have some Late War Monster swoop in for a one pass kill happens an awful lot. I would call P-51s, 190s, Typhoons and Corsairs the scavenger planes.
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Really? Seems like flying a older/slower plane and beating a higher/faster/better plane, only to have some Late War Monster swoop in for a one pass kill happens an awful lot. I would call P-51s, 190s, Typhoons and Corsairs the scavenger planes.
Vulchers are scavengers just as much as bottom feeders. :D
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Really? Seems like flying a older/slower plane and beating a higher/faster/better plane, only to have some Late War Monster swoop in for a one pass kill happens an awful lot. I would call P-51s, 190s, Typhoons and Corsairs the scavenger planes.
I think you contradicted yourself...
Late War Monster (like P-51D) belongs to LW MA
Older/slower plane (like F4F) belongs to EW MA - not to LW MA, so kill'em all :x
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Any Spit 16 driver fool enough to start turn fighting any of those planes will have his a$z handed to him if the pilot of the other plane is even remotely competent. Spit16 might be able to take advantage of its roll rate against the Zeke or Hurri but trying to do so against the Brew is a fools game. Spits, while great turners, are just not in the same league as these three.
Best course of action for a Spit when fighting these three plane types is the same as most every other ride in the planeset i.e. use the vert / stay fast / slash attack or a mixture of these three.
A SpitXVI has a sustained turn rate of 23.6 dps-Which means it will follow and come around on the FM2 (22 dps) in a simple nose to tail chase. I know, because I fly the FM2 a lot, and against a Spit on your tail, you have to do something more creative than simply turn or loop for all it's worth. The FM2 isn't quite the turn monster the others are, a Zeke is a damn tough fight for it...
The Brew and especially the Zekes have a the turn rate advantage, but still, the XVI coming in on their six should be able to manage throttle and simply Hizooka them to death most of the time. And then if things get tricky, use massive engine power to get into the vertical. In this way the Spit is VERY different than the other "late war monsters" the OP listed, which rarely be able to follow these planes in a "bat turn" and will have to use the vertical and take more angle-off snapshots.
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A SpitXVI has a sustained turn rate of 23.6 dps-Which means it will follow and come around on the FM2 (22 dps) in a simple nose to tail chase. I know, because I fly the FM2 a lot, and against a Spit on your tail, you have to do something more creative than simply turn or loop for all it's worth. The FM2 isn't quite the turn monster the others are, a Zeke is a damn tough fight for it...
The Brew and especially the Zekes have a the turn rate advantage, but still, the XVI coming in on their six should be able to manage throttle and simply Hizooka them to death most of the time. And then if things get tricky, use massive engine power to get into the vertical. In this way the Spit is VERY different than the other "late war monsters" the OP listed, which rarely be able to follow these planes in a "bat turn" and will have to use the vertical and take more angle-off snapshots.
I agree. My statement was the Spit16 pilot who decides to turn (i.e. flat turn, no vert) with these three will get his head handed to him. I've seen this happen quite a bit, usually by new pilots.
Keep in mind the many Spit16 pilots are relatively new. In the hands of newbee pilot they can still be deadly for sure, but I think it leads to overconfidence in our young, impressionable, XBox loving, HO shot focused brethren. :)
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Really? Seems like flying a older/slower plane and beating a higher/faster/better plane, only to have some Late War Monster swoop in for a one pass kill happens an awful lot. I would call P-51s, 190s, Typhoons and Corsairs the scavenger planes.
This is my experience as well.
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How do you deal with outclassed planes at LW MA like Zero, F4F, Brewster, Hurricane, P-40 and others of this type?
These planes are mostly outclassed in all possible ways except turn rate.
Some of them are very slow and can be easily outrun by any late war plane like La 7, P-51D, Dora, 109K, Yak-3, Spit XVI and so, however they may be deadly if you are low, slow and turning with some other plane of higher class.
My general method is following, if they are not at 400-600 on your 6 and closing, just ignore them they can do no harm...
However I keep an eye on them so they wouldn't try to sneak out on me when I turn for example in Yak-3 with Pony.
I attack them only if I find no other more interesting targets or they happen to be in favorable position to kill them.
How do you deal with outclassed planes at LW MA?
I just got done flying the F4f for the tour... It just means that you need a little bit more patience and a bit more altitude and understand that slow planes get you more assists.... But seriously the assists are annoying as fawk when you only get one shot...
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Really? Seems like flying a older/slower plane and beating a higher/faster/better plane, only to have some Late War Monster swoop in for a one pass kill happens an awful lot. I would call P-51s, 190s, Typhoons and Corsairs the scavenger planes.
Word. Late War opportunist planes love to clear your 12.
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Really? Seems like flying a older/slower plane and beating a higher/faster/better plane, only to have some Late War Monster swoop in for a one pass kill happens an awful lot. I would call P-51s, 190s, Typhoons and Corsairs the scavenger planes.
Well I often beat a far move maneuverable plane in my P-47 or Mosquito only to be jumped upon by a Brew/Ki43/zeke, so it goes both ways.
No one is a saint - if it is red it is dead.
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How do you deal with outclassed planes at LW MA like Zero, F4F, Brewster, Hurricane, P-40 and others of this type?
These planes are mostly outclassed in all possible ways except turn rate.
E & patience..........
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No one is a saint - if it is red it is dead.
Indeed in a many versus many fight you need to clear each other's sixes and take every easy "pick" of the bandit that presents itself. It is not a bunch of duels running in parallel.
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The P-38 can be a pain in the tush.
If you misjudge his "E" state and its ability to climb, along with its ability to kill from far, far out, in the hands of a really good stick it can make you look foolish even if you hold the Alt and supposedly the hole card in the fight. The K4 is in the same group yet the 38 has so GD lazer guns in its nose and makes it such a lethal gun package.
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As someone who flies the Mk1 Hurri and Mossie VI, I always find it highly rewarding when a late war aircraft goes kaboom!
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E & patience..........
^ this
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Pshaww, P-38s are easy kills as long as you avoid fighting them at high speeds, at low speeds, in the vertical, or in stallfights :devil
The P-38 can be a pain in the tush.
If you misjudge his "E" state and its ability to climb, along with its ability to kill from far, far out, in the hands of a really good stick it can make you look foolish even if you hold the Alt and supposedly the hole card in the fight. The K4 is in the same group yet the 38 has so GD lazer guns in its nose and makes it such a lethal gun package.
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There was a time, long long long long... oops maybe not that long time ago, when the P-38L (our only 38) was feared and respected in AH main.
Then again, the P-38L and P-47D30 (no typo) were considered fast planes then, I was connecting to the internet with a phone-line 36600 modem, my stick was connected to a COM port, HTC was charging me 24.95$/month, and the trees were barking at the dogs that pee'd on them.
It is time the TWINS got some of that respect back! The 38s and the mossies, the 110s and 410s, the Beaufighters and Whirlwinds.
1. So first thing, and this is absolutely vital to this plan <hee..hee..>, is to get HTC to model the last two.
2. Second, disable all ordnance above 500lbs on these planes to stop them from being used as bomb trucks. For the love of cod! there is nothing more humiliating to a P-38L than loading it up with explosives like a suicide-mule in Iraq and driving it into the town with absolutely no intention of coming back or shooting at an enemy plane. Look at the mossie - only 500lbs, dignity maintained. Mostly maintained in the hangar, but maintained.
3. Third <hee..hee>, is to agree that no TWIN shall shoot at another TWIN as long as there are puny little single engine fighters in icon range <hee..hee..>.
:rofl :lol :D :rofl :rolleyes:
OK I crack myself up, there is no way I keep #3...
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More P-38 or other twins is cool...
More huge targets with pathetic roll rate to shoot at :rock
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Pshaww, P-38s are easy kills as long as you avoid fighting them at high speeds, at low speeds, in the vertical, or in stallfights :devil
:rofl :aok
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There was a time, long long long long... oops maybe not that long time ago, when the P-38L (our only 38) was feared and respected in AH main.
Then again, the P-38L and P-47D30 (no typo) were considered fast planes then, I was connecting to the internet with a phone-line 36600 modem, my stick was connected to a COM port, HTC was charging me 24.95$/month, and the trees were barking at the dogs that pee'd on them.
It is time the TWINS got some of that respect back! The 38s and the mossies, the 110s and 410s, the Beaufighters and Whirlwinds.
1. So first thing, and this is absolutely vital to this plan <hee..hee..>, is to get HTC to model the last two.
2. Second, disable all ordnance above 500lbs on these planes to stop them from being used as bomb trucks. For the love of cod! there is nothing more humiliating to a P-38L than loading it up with explosives like a suicide-mule in Iraq and driving it into the town with absolutely no intention of coming back or shooting at an enemy plane. Look at the mossie - only 500lbs, dignity maintained. Mostly maintained in the hangar, but maintained.
3. Third <hee..hee>, is to agree that no TWIN shall shoot at another TWIN as long as there are puny little single engine fighters in icon range <hee..hee..>.
:rofl :lol :D :rofl :rolleyes:
OK I crack myself up, there is no way I keep #3...
No way I could adhere to #3. I enjoy killing P38 glory-boys and tea-sipping Mossie flyers in a 110, which is of course the only respectable TWIN. ;)
I avoid killing 410s, due to a strange mixture pity and respect for pilots crazy enough to dogfight in one. :lol
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i don't nesseceraly think that it's the plane thats outclassed--sure there are fast planes-slow ones-middle speed ones--and planes that turn better than other's--i think it has to do with the pilot--good ones-bad ones-middle ones.a good pilot can often take a middle or bad plane and get 3 or 4 kills in it..etc..viceversa and so on.i fly primarly fly the p-51d..i'm somewhere between bad and middle...i once asked what plane was good against a ki-84--and was told a ki-84---which if i'm not behind him/her i'm dead. :joystick:
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I love taking a Spit I up to 10k and poncing LW Rides. Funny Thing is when a Spit 16 or K4 Try to play in the verticle and are amazed as I Follow them. They are like :O as the parts start to fall off. I be Like :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl they be :ahand :bhead
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i don't nesseceraly think that it's the plane thats outclassed--sure there are fast planes-slow ones-middle speed ones--and planes that turn better than other's--i think it has to do with the pilot--good ones-bad ones-middle ones.a good pilot can often take a middle or bad plane and get 3 or 4 kills in it..etc..viceversa and so on.i fly primarly fly the p-51d..i'm somewhere between bad and middle...i once asked what plane was good against a ki-84--and was told a ki-84---which if i'm not behind him/her i'm dead. :joystick:
thats not really a fair fight....
you actually fight, but the differences between the 2 make it extremely hard fight for the 51, even using excellent BnZ tactics....
the Ki84 does everything good.... climbs like a banshee....reverses insanely fats....hangs on the prop with the best of them...actually it probably is the best at that....excepting maybe the 38.....
it can take a massive amount of damage, which is a huge benefit....
the guns are very fast firing so you put a lot more rounds out in a short burst....then you normally would in other 20 mm planes.....
ya it is bad arse :rock