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General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: BnZs on February 04, 2014, 02:49:08 PM

Title: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: BnZs on February 04, 2014, 02:49:08 PM
Not as fast but has a lighter wingloading, which would be neat. For the love of dog though, not a version with cannons.
(http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51variants/P-51A/P-51A-10NA_1.jpg)
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Karnak on February 04, 2014, 02:50:31 PM
Would be a nice addition.

Put on your fire retardant suit though, the usual "power" crowd will be in shortly to flambe you.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: BnZs on February 04, 2014, 02:52:36 PM
Would be a nice addition.

Put on your fire retardant suit though, the usual "power" crowd will be in shortly to flambe you.

I'm thinking with the lighter wingloading and low on fuel, it would be something like a Yak.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: morfiend on February 04, 2014, 02:55:08 PM
   I see no reason to not add the cannon armed 51!


  Flame away....


   :salute
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: BnZs on February 04, 2014, 03:03:02 PM
  I see no reason to not add the cannon armed 51!


  Flame away....


   :salute

There is no historical reason not to but the .50s version would induce less dweebery and uproar. Maybe add the cannon version as a perker, like the F4U-C.

I'm wanting more twist-twisty in a Mustang-shaped package, not more boom-boom-in-the-facy :D
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Megalodon on February 04, 2014, 03:40:41 PM
There is no historical reason not to but the .50s version would induce less dweebery and uproar. Maybe add the cannon version as a perker, like the F4U-C.

I'm wanting more twist-twisty in a Mustang-shaped package, not more boom-boom-in-the-facy :D

+1 for Allison birds

I'd be good with the 20mm as a perk bird ...tho it was a early/mid war bird.

I would suggest the earlier P-51 model, still get the Allison 4x30 4x50 or 20mm as load out options and also add the A-36 4 0r 6x50, eggs and dive flaps in place of the P-51A. The 51A is not much different then the B/C except for the engine and we have a hi alt version already.

You could also add the P-51C as the bubble top or add the bubble top <Malcolm> as an option on the 51B in the hanger.

Make 2 versions of the P-51D, early/1 no-fillet, no k-14 and no rockets and late/30 with all 3 as the top of the line P-51D... maybe a small perk for the latter <2-4>. Then you would have the whole range of the 51 which compared to the 47/109/190/spit/yak/ is lacking.

 :salute
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: morfiend on February 04, 2014, 04:25:31 PM
There is no historical reason not to but the .50s version would induce less dweebery and uproar. Maybe add the cannon version as a perker, like the F4U-C.

I'm wanting more twist-twisty in a Mustang-shaped package, not more boom-boom-in-the-facy :D


   To me it makes sense,it's a low alt version with the Allison which is where most fly in AH.



    :salute


PS: I'd rather see the beaufighter added but hey it has 4 cannons too!
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: cobia38 on February 04, 2014, 04:56:26 PM
There is no historical reason not to but the .50s version would induce less dweebery and uproar. Maybe add the cannon version as a perker, like the F4U-C.

I'm wanting more twist-twisty in a Mustang-shaped package, not more boom-boom-in-the-facy :D


 why would it have to be perked  with cannons ????
 you don't see mossy/tiffy/hurri/spits/109s/190s/n1k1/ ....ect ect all cannon birds BTW, perked do you ?
 so why perk an murican bird with cannons ? inquiring minds want to know !!!!
 



.flame on










.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: LCADolby on February 04, 2014, 04:58:52 PM
It wouldn't need to be perked at all, Allison engine P51s would be meat for the grinder.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 04, 2014, 05:23:31 PM
It wouldn't need to be perked at all, Allison engine P51s would be meat for the grinder.

At altitudes where majority of the fights take place in AH, it will be competitive and not fodder for the meat grinder.

ack-ack
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Tank-Ace on February 04, 2014, 05:25:32 PM
I would wager on seeing a LOT more HO'ing from pony dweebs, if they know they have the advantage in firepower. I'm frankly still amazed anyone would be dumb enough to try and HO a 110, or a K4.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 04, 2014, 05:27:05 PM
I would wager on seeing a LOT more HO'ing from pony dweebs, if they know they have the advantage in firepower. I'm frankly still amazed anyone would be dumb enough to try and HO a 110, or a K4.

You'd see no more head on shots than you see now.

ack-ack
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Karnak on February 04, 2014, 05:58:09 PM

   To me it makes sense,it's a low alt version with the Allison which is where most fly in AH.



    :salute


PS: I'd rather see the beaufighter added but hey it has 4 cannons too!


 why would it have to be perked  with cannons ????
 you don't see mossy/tiffy/hurri/spits/109s/190s/n1k1/ ....ect ect all cannon birds BTW, perked do you ?
 so why perk an murican bird with cannons ? inquiring minds want to know !!!!
 



.flame on

Four cannons is not the issue.  Four cannons on an aircraft for which the vast majority did not have cannons at all but because the four cannons are available in AH it completely dominates  the usage for that aircraft is the problem that the P-51A and A-20G have.

All N1K2-Js had four cannons.  All Typhoons had four cannons.  All fighter Mosquitoes, other than the low production Mk XVIII, had four cannons.  Many, many Fw190s had four cannons.  The significant majority of Hurricane Mk IIs had four cannons.  All Tempests had four cannons.

You cannot have the representative versions of those aircraft without having them armed with four cannons.  There are two aircraft, both Russian, in AH right now that violate that and offer rare gun packages and in both case the historically common gun package is essentially extinct in AH.  The La-7 should be armed with two 20mm cannons and the Il-2 should be armed with two 23mm cannons.  The three cannon option on the La-7 and the 37mm option on the Il-2 should be perk options and so the P-51A and A-20G should follow the same pattern, offer the four cannons but at the cost a perk point or five.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: caldera on February 04, 2014, 06:12:22 PM
Just what the game needs, more Mustangs.  (http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/smilies/rolleye0003.gif~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/smilies/rolleye0003.gif.html)
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: morfiend on February 04, 2014, 06:44:24 PM
Four cannons is not the issue.  Four cannons on an aircraft for which the vast majority did not have cannons at all but because the four cannons are available in AH it completely dominates  the usage for that aircraft is the problem that the P-51A and A-20G have.

All N1K2-Js had four cannons.  All Typhoons had four cannons.  All fighter Mosquitoes, other than the low production Mk XVIII, had four cannons.  Many, many Fw190s had four cannons.  The significant majority of Hurricane Mk IIs had four cannons.  All Tempests had four cannons.

You cannot have the representative versions of those aircraft without having them armed with four cannons.  There are two aircraft, both Russian, in AH right now that violate that and offer rare gun packages and in both case the historically common gun package is essentially extinct in AH.  The La-7 should be armed with two 20mm cannons and the Il-2 should be armed with two 23mm cannons.  The three cannon option on the La-7 and the 37mm option on the Il-2 should be perk options and so the P-51A and A-20G should follow the same pattern, offer the four cannons but at the cost a perk point or five.



  Karnak, I never said anything other than I see no reason to not include the 4 cannon 51,perk it or whatever it makes no difference to me. That doesnt change the fact that I see no reason to not include it!

  I'd rather see the beau first,a 109G with a highblown engine would be fine also and likely the game could use these first but.... see above.



   :salute
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Karnak on February 04, 2014, 06:51:46 PM


  Karnak, I never said anything other than I see no reason to not include the 4 cannon 51,perk it or whatever it makes no difference to me. That doesnt change the fact that I see no reason to not include it!

  I'd rather see the beau first,a 109G with a highblown engine would be fine also and likely the game could use these first but.... see above.



   :salute
Your quip about the Beaufighter seemed to indicate that you thought it was the four cannon that were the problem.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: morfiend on February 04, 2014, 07:17:37 PM
Your quip about the Beaufighter seemed to indicate that you thought it was the four cannon that were the problem.


  Sorry for the confussion,I dont think the cannons matter at all,I would just enjoy reading all the whines that would result if HTC added this plane,fuel for the fire so to speak.

    I really dont have an agenda with what planes are added or not,to me they are all the same,2 wings and a prop,well there are those hairdryers,some just do some things better than others.

  Whenever a player askes me what they should fly I always say the same thing,fly whatever you like or want to,some will be easier to fly than others and some may be difficult to find success in.   Then I say try a spit it's a pretty good beginners plane but there are many others that are good to start in  also.

  To me it's about having fun,I sometimes enjoy the comedy on the BBS,I thought a 4 cannon 51 might generate some of that....... :devil



    :salute
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Sunka on February 04, 2014, 11:36:17 PM
Just what the game needs, more Mustangs.  (http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/smilies/rolleye0003.gif~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/smilies/rolleye0003.gif.html)
Just more variants would not mean more pony's,how many hogs and spits and yaks and 109's and jugs do we have. :rolleyes:
 And this version i think would add to more fighting and less running.

+1
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: bustr on February 05, 2014, 01:30:50 AM
It might go the way of the initial days after the CHog was introduced. The MA became Hog HO city. And it's not all that fast unless you put it in a dive.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Chalenge on February 05, 2014, 02:18:30 AM
Four cannons is not the issue.  Four cannons on an aircraft for which the vast majority did not have cannons at all but because the four cannons are available in AH it completely dominates  the usage for that aircraft is the problem that the P-51A and A-20G have.

I really do wish you would learn your aircraft better. The P-51A never had cannons. The P-51 (no variant designation) had four 20mm.

Another error in this thread concerns speed. Someone said the P-51A would be slower (or hinted at it). It won't be slower.

And everyone seems to forget that it would still be a P-51 (paper radiator) and likely it would lose in any HO whether it had 20mm or not. Adding cannon would only even the gun platforms a little, and it would be easier to fly in tighter circles. It most certainly would not become the ruler of the arena. A F4U-4 would not be faster but it would turn better, as would many, many other aircraft. Besides, if you have not learned how to avoid a HO then you need to go back to training.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: bustr on February 05, 2014, 04:50:56 AM
The British did not get all of these NA-91s. Since the RAF deliveries took place after Pearl Harbor, many were repossessed by the Army before they reached England. Out of 150 produced, only 93 ended up going to the RAF, with 55 being retained by the USAAF and two being devoted to the XP-78 (XP-51B) project. These included RAF Mustang IA serials FD418/FD437, FD450/FD464, FD466/FD469, and FD510/FD527.

Contrary to some reports, the Army planes still retained the 20-mm cannon of the RAF version, but were fitted with two K-24 oblique cameras mounted behind the pilot in the fuselage. These were designated as tactical reconnaissance aircraft and were designated F-6A, but this designation was soon changed to P-51. Some sources say that the F-6As had an additional downward-pointing fuselage camera munted between the tailwheel bay and the radiator exit flap, with the two cameras mounted behind the pilot being common to both designations.

The Army planes were delivered directly from NAA and were all finished in OD/Neutral Gray camouflage. The P-51s went to Peterson Field in Colorado, where they were assigned to the newly-established aerial reconnaissance school. In March of 1943, a batch of 25 F-6A/P-51s were assigned to the 154th Observation Squadron at Oujda in French Morocco. This was the first US Mustang unit. The first mission was a photographic coverage of Kairouan airfield in Tunisia on April 10, 1943, which was the first USAAF Mustang mission of the war. No. 225 Squadron of the RAF frequently borrowed Mustangs from the 154th to augment its shorter- range Spitfires. The F-6A/P-51 was quite successful in operation, but it did have one important defect--it bore a similar shape to that of the Messerschmitt Bf 109. The 154th's first combat loss was a friendly fire incident in which Allied AAA failed to recognize the differences, with fatal results.

Two P-51 airframes were diverted to the XP-78 project, about which much more will be said later!


Sources:


1. American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.


2. The American Fighter, Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, Orion Books, 1987.


3. War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume Four, William Green, Doubleday 1964.


4. United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian, 1989.


5. Fighting Mustang: The Chronicle of the P-51, William N. Hess, Doubleday, 1970.


6. Classic Warplanes: North American P-51 Mustang, Bill Gunston, Gallery Books, 1990.


7. Famous Fighters of the Second World War, Volume I, William Green, 1967.


8. British Military Aircraft Serials, 1912-1969, Bruce Robertson, Ian Allen, 1969.


9. E-mail from Michael Vorrasi on P-51/F-6As being equipped with 20mm cannon and not 0.50-inch machine guns.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: bozon on February 05, 2014, 10:11:04 AM
And everyone seems to forget that it would still be a P-51 (paper radiator) and likely it would lose in any HO whether it had 20mm or not. Adding cannon would only even the gun platforms a little, and it would be easier to fly in tighter circles.
What you are forgetting is that it will be a P-51, thus a guaranteed place in the top-10 used planes. Anything with 4 cannons, let alone hispanos, can get easy kills. Would anyone even know the N1K existed in the game if it was armed with 6*0.5s? The combination of cannons and a P-51 name tag will make its popularity rival that of the D pony. The only saving grace of the D pony may be that it is a better bomb truck, or if the cannons on the A pony were the drum fed 60 RPG ones (were they?).

Not that it should not be added, but it may needs to be perked and in any case, I see it very low on the priority list.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Megalodon on February 05, 2014, 10:33:38 AM
What you are forgetting is that it will be a P-51, thus a guaranteed place in the top-10 used planes. Anything with 4 cannons, let alone hispanos, can get easy kills. Would anyone even know the N1K existed in the game if it was armed with 6*0.5s? The combination of cannons and a P-51 name tag will make its popularity rival that of the D pony. The only saving grace of the D pony may be that it is a better bomb truck, or if the cannons on the A pony were the drum fed 60 RPG ones (were they?).

Not that it should not be added, but it may needs to be perked and in any case, I see it very low on the priority list.

 I think a re-vamp of the P-51 model line would only be a good thing, as you say its the attractant, more of them will attract more folks ...right?
 The 51 model is missing at least 3 versions and could be fleshed out to 4-5 models no problem.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: BnZs on February 05, 2014, 10:35:53 AM
I don`t see why an early Pony of some kind should be low on the priority list in an arena that the TA-152, P-47M, and Me-163.
What you are forgetting is that it will be a P-51, thus a guaranteed place in the top-10 used planes. Anything with 4 cannons, let alone hispanos, can get easy kills. Would anyone even know the N1K existed in the game if it was armed with 6*0.5s? The combination of cannons and a P-51 name tag will make its popularity rival that of the D pony. The only saving grace of the D pony may be that it is a better bomb truck, or if the cannons on the A pony were the drum fed 60 RPG ones (were they?).

Not that it should not be added, but it may needs to be perked and in any case, I see it very low on the priority list.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Sunka on February 05, 2014, 10:46:55 AM
I don`t see why an early Pony of some kind should be low on the priority list in an arena that the TA-152, P-47M, and Me-163.
People that get killed by it to much, tend to complain i find. :aok
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: BnZs on February 05, 2014, 10:49:34 AM
People that get killed by it to much, tend to complain i find. :aok

People don't complain about getting killed by P-51s, I personally murder more Ponys than any other plane. They complain about the facts there are lots of them...oh well.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: save on February 05, 2014, 11:02:27 AM
A lower ENY Ki84 with 4 cannons would please me







Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Megalodon on February 05, 2014, 11:51:46 AM
I don`t see why an early Pony of some kind should be low on the priority list in an arena that the TA-152, P-47M, and Me-163.

TA-152H-1 and B-239............. Ar-234?, P-47M, Me-163? and F4U-C
    under 46 club                                  under 201 club



On topic the Na-99, P-51A had an order of 1200.... only 300 were made.  

More of the Na-73/83, P-51/Mk1 600 were made. 4x30-4x50 version

The Na-91, P-51/MK1a 160 or so were made. 20mm version

The Na-97, A36 around 500 made.  4 or 6x50, 2x500lbs, dive flaps ...Attack version.


The P-51A had a bit more horsepower and kept the hard points of the A-36 with only 4x50....  basically what we have already in the 51B

Give us all of the Mustangs,

 :cheers:
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: bustr on February 05, 2014, 03:48:59 PM
They all got used in the war. The P51\F-6A was the first to be used in a combat theater of the P51 family.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Tank-Ace on February 05, 2014, 07:09:43 PM
Megalodon, screwing up in the past doesn't justify screwing up again. P-51A with free cannons is still just a retard move.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: phatzo on February 05, 2014, 07:46:28 PM

  I sometimes enjoy the comedy on the BBS,

this one had me laughing

Quote
You'd see no more head on shots than you see now.

ack-ack
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Chalenge on February 05, 2014, 08:04:51 PM
Megalodon, screwing up in the past doesn't justify screwing up again. P-51A with free cannons is still just a retard move.

I actually agree with this, but only because dear jager doesn't know a P-51 from a P-51A.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Megalodon on February 06, 2014, 12:02:33 PM
People don't complain about getting killed by P-51s, I personally murder more Ponys than any other plane. They complain about the facts there are lots of them...oh well.

 You may enjoy this thread you will see some get rampant when you mention the 20mm stang  :uhoh  ...... some good shots of the 51 and 51A.... I meant to go back and put the Na-73/83 in this thread but spaced. I did miss label a picture tho  :headscratch:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,328441.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,328441.0.html)

 :cheers:
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Karnak on February 06, 2014, 12:06:35 PM
I really do wish you would learn your aircraft better. The P-51A never had cannons. The P-51 (no variant designation) had four 20mm.
Yes, I know that.  I was being lazy and not in the mood to be pedantic.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Wiley on February 06, 2014, 12:35:39 PM
Yes, I know that.  I was being lazy and not in the mood to be pedantic.

Is it possible to discuss aircraft on this board without being pedantic? :)

Wiley.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Tank-Ace on February 06, 2014, 12:39:48 PM
Is it possible to discuss aircraft on this board without being pedantic? :)

Wiley.

I would say so. As long as we stick to what is actually relevant to the game.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: BnZs on February 06, 2014, 01:05:47 PM
I specified no cannons because I wanted no controversy, to get across the point that I don't have a case of "cannon envy" I simply want a cool but non-uber airplane that lots of people will like having.  :salute
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Aspen on February 06, 2014, 02:48:29 PM
Sounds like a fun plane.  If fun planes prompt guys to log in more often then throw some cannons in that thing and lets go.  I'll take getting HOed over slow action on a big map any day.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: waystin2 on February 06, 2014, 02:57:35 PM
Sounds like a fun plane.  If fun planes prompt guys to log in more often then throw some cannons in that thing and lets go.  I'll take getting HOed over slow action on a big map any day.


DING DING We have a winner!  You looking for a squad Aspen? :D
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Megalodon on February 06, 2014, 03:25:55 PM
I specified no cannons because I wanted no controversy, to get across the point that I don't have a case of "cannon envy" I simply want a cool but non-uber airplane that lots of people will like having.  :salute

 The P-51A never had cannons so no specification was needed :) ...the point I'm making is if we are going to get a new 51 we should get at least 3 and the 51A isn't 1 of the 3.

 :salute

Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Chalenge on February 06, 2014, 04:12:58 PM
Yes, I know that.  I was being lazy and not in the mood to be pedantic.

If you say so. Somehow I think not.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: morfiend on February 06, 2014, 04:22:02 PM
What you are forgetting is that it will be a P-51, thus a guaranteed place in the top-10 used planes. Anything with 4 cannons, let alone hispanos, can get easy kills.  or if the cannons on the A pony were the drum fed 60 RPG ones (were they?).

Not that it should not be added, but it may needs to be perked and in any case, I see it very low on the priority list.


  I did some checking on this because I didnt know the answer and the best I can find was the cannons had 125 rounds each and was belt fed.




     :salute
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Aspen on February 06, 2014, 04:23:17 PM
DING DING We have a winner!  You looking for a squad Aspen? :D

Maybe, my current squad is probably sick of trying to clear me when I shouldn't have turned back in in the first place.  

 ***:headscratch: Or maybe they view me as bait? Hmmmmm...
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Karnak on February 06, 2014, 05:55:20 PM
If you say so. Somehow I think not.
Look at earlier posts of mine on the subject.  I refer to the P-51 when talking about cannon armed examples.
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 14, 2014, 08:00:15 PM
Enjoy.

Walk Around - Allision Engined Mustangs (http://www.mediafire.com/view/hsp070y6fq1u946/50507017-Squadron-Signal-Walk-Around-5513-Allison-Engined-Mustangs.pdf)

ack-ack
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Greebo on February 15, 2014, 08:38:53 AM
Out of curiousity, how would the Allison and Merlin engined Mustangs compare speed-wise up to 10K?
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Blinder on February 15, 2014, 08:59:45 AM
As a duly elected representative of the bomber community, I am authorized to state our party's position which is: We don't need no more cannons! -1 :furious
Title: Re: P-51A NO CANNONS
Post by: Gray on February 17, 2014, 08:31:37 AM
We need every air, sea and ground machine that saw combat......and newbies to fill them.  Everybody go BOOM!