Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on February 27, 2014, 03:52:35 PM
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Guys,
With respect to ACM usage, which prop fighter plane has the best 37mm?
Examples: P-39, Yak9t ...
Thanks,
Slade :salute
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The yak has the NS37 which has a much higher MV than the 37 oldsmobile or as I call it the buick37!
The 37 MM on the stuka is closer to the NS37 but like the IL2 it fires AP rounds.
:salute
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Not the P-39, that's for sure. Well, at least in real life the Oldsmobile 37mm cannon sucked.
ack-ack
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Yak-9T's NS-37 beats the P-39 in about every category: Trajectory, rate of fire, damage.
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Yak-9T's NS-37 beats the P-39 in about every category: Trajectory, rate of fire, damage.
What about the BK-37 vs. the NS-37?
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What about the BK-37 vs. the NS-37?
In the context of the original question, usage as an air to air weapon the NS-37 hands down - higher ROF, more ammo per gun and (in the Yak-t) using HE rounds instead of AP.
But that's not a fair comparison, as the BK-3,7 is a AT gun fitted to a dedicated tank buster. Comparing the NS 37/Il-2 combination to the BK-3,7/Ju-87G is that one sided anymore. But in AH, the NS-37 still wins:
While having a somewhat slower muzzle velocity, the trajectory of the NS-37 is still flat enough. The BK has a substantially higher armor penetration under ideal conditions, but the nature of the Hartkern ammunition makes it very sensitive to even small deviations from the ideal angle of impact (90°). And the NS-37 can still dispatch about any tank in the game. Finally, the higher ROF and much higher ammo count of the NS-37 in the IL-2 makes attacking not only tanks, but also small fast moving ground vehicles like the M3 much, much more easy.
Similar to the 40mm of the Hurri D (and most probably even more so), the BK-3,7 of the Ju-87G is much more a specialist's weapon.
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Yes, I was primarily thinking of tank-busting.
. The BK has a substantially higher armor penetration under ideal conditions, but the nature of the Hartkern ammunition makes it very sensitive to even small deviations from the ideal angle of impact (90°).
Is this effect seen in-game, or only in real life?
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Is this effect seen in-game, or only in real life?
By my perception it's also seen in game, but I have not (yet) tried to test it more objectively
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Does it show you the round deflecting off as in tank v tank warfare, or do you always get the big orange cannon flash regardless of penetration?
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In offline testing with the BK 3,7, I've gotten the dreaded light saber effect ricochet from 1000yd shots.
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The stuka's 37mm ap has much better penetration than the ns37 ap round. I may be wrong but something like twice as much penetration.
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The stuka's 37mm ap has much better penetration than the ns37 ap round. I may be wrong but something like twice as much penetration.
Yes, but as pointed out by Lusche a little bit above your post it is very sensitive to deviations from a 90 degree impact angle, more so than the NS37's plain Jane AP rounds.
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In offline testing with the BK 3,7, I've gotten the dreaded light saber effect ricochet from 1000yd shots.
I've done a bit of tank shooting with it, haven't ever gotten anything but the big orange flash, but several times I've not gotten a kill with just one shot...I dunno.
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The stuka's 37mm ap has much better penetration than the ns37 ap round. I may be wrong but something like twice as much penetration.
Maybe that's due to the Flak 18 37mm cannons on the Ju-87G series using tungsten carbide rounds.
ack-ack
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Ive at least smoked most tanks in the game with the NS-37 in the Yak but i dont consider it a very good tank buster. Panzers yes. Lighter GVs yes. Ive killed some T34s with it but consider it a low percentage most of all the T34/85.
The Yak-9T is a murderous base defender tho. If i had to pick one airplane to Shepard a town it would be it. LVTs, M3s, goons, M8s, dont stand a chance and the MGs are great for hosing troops. A low Alt pack of bombers has a big problem with the NS-37s and their HE tips. Porking fighters had also best stay out of their way. I like to fly it about 2 to 3 k and keep it fairly fast, leaving enough air under neath to give it a few evasion moves. It rolls pretty well and retains enough energy to make it fairly agile in its best speed range. I think its under rated.
Comparing the Hurri-D to the Stuka I cant speak much about the guns but the Hurri is the more stable platform.
I'd really have to see hard data to believe the 3,7 had twice the penetration of the NS-37 AP. :salute
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If you practice offline you'll see that the stuka kills tanks easier than the hurri.
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I'd really have to see hard data to believe the 3,7 had twice the penetration of the NS-37 AP. :salute
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm
And to illustrate the relation between impact angle and penetratrion of the BK 3,7 shell: Penetration vs angle at 100m and 600m
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/Bk37hartkern_zps2f1d49b8.jpg)
You have to fly very precicse to achive 90° even when attacking the tank in level flight. If diving on the tank to shoot at the top armor, even 60° almost looks "directly down" to a pilot, but the reduction in penetration is already considerable.
Most tank buster attacks I see in the MA are at much worse angles, often less than 40°
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I'd really have to see hard data to believe the 3,7 had twice the penetration of the NS-37 AP. :salute
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm
I'm surprised you're killing t34s with yak9t as the yak9t carries only HE ammo.
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http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm
I'm surprised you're killing t34s with yak9t as the yak9t carries only HE ammo.
Only a few. I never claimed it a good T34 killer. And if I remember right I only smoked most of them and they towered. But one I remember i did kill outright. 5 maybe altogether. And this only after lots of shooting at them.
If you practice offline you'll see that the stuka kills tanks easier than the hurri.
Very likely. But the Hurri is the more stable platform of the two. At least for me the Stuka is harder to control.
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The 37mm in the stuka may be better than the IL2, but the IL2 is easily capable of killing all tanks except for the tiger 2 so the difference doesn't really matter.
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Where does the 37mm manned ack gun sit relative to the rest mentioned here?
I've landed 200+ rounds to GV's at close range only to watch them drive away seemingly undamaged while the auto acks of a recently captured field dispatch a tiger 2 in about 11 seconds.
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Where does the 37mm manned ack gun sit relative to the rest mentioned here?
I've landed 200+ rounds to GV's at close range only to watch them drive away seemingly undamaged while the auto acks of a recently captured field dispatch a tiger 2 in about 11 seconds.
Film?
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Yak-9T's NS-37 beats the P-39 in about every category: Trajectory, rate of fire, damage.
There is a damage difference? Oh do tell. Are you speaking of damage to OBJ or perceived damage to aircraft?
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The stuka's 37mm ap has much better penetration than the ns37 ap round. I may be wrong but something like twice as much penetration.
Do you have the source of that info? I'd like to see actual data on the Bk 37mm AP capabilities. Like others, I believe the Bk 37mm is the better aircraft mounted anti-armor gun in AH. Though, I think the three tank buster platforms currently in AH (IL-2, Stuka G-2, and Hurricane IID) play a bigger role in the success rate of the player vs the actual capabilities of each individual AP round.
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Film?
gv armor will deflect 37mm forever at the angles a manned acks hits, except if you hit a soft spot.
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Do you have the source of that info? I'd like to see actual data on the Bk 37mm AP capabilities. Like others, I believe the Bk 37mm is the better aircraft mounted anti-armor gun in AH. Though, I think the three tank buster platforms currently in AH (IL-2, Stuka G-2, and Hurricane IID) play a bigger role in the success rate of the player vs the actual capabilities of each individual AP round.
Check the link that me and lusche posted.
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gv armor will deflect 37mm forever at the angles a manned acks hits, except if you hit a soft spot.
Where's the soft spot on a tigerII that it can be killed in 11 seconds by auto ack? I just drove a tigerII across a large field, making it most of the way across before it was tracked, and sat there for another 10 minutes before towering out. There was never any amor penetration and I didn't kill any of the ack guns, had I been killing ack guns I may not have even been tracked. I know there is a soft spot on the front of the tiger I but I doubt auto ack aims for it. Test it yourself offline, spawn a tiger two and then change the country ownership of the field that you're on.
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Yeah our sources are the same. I havnt read up on this in awhiles, since my tank busting days, but I was aware of what that BK 3,7 WAS capable of under perfect conditions. The thing is making the conditions "perfect". I had great difficulty doing a 90% vertical and if anyone has the trick to it I'd like to hear it. Also touching off an accurate volley in such a dive, at such distances "200 meters", is very difficult. Oh I killed tanks in the Stuka but was a little frustrated with it as well.
Maybe I'll spend more time in it and give it another try. Under most game conditions I just found the NS-37 the better cannon. 50mm penetration at 200 meters at a 60% angle is plenty for almost all tanks.
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How does the Flak 18 cannon compare to the BK-5 50mm cannon for tank busting?
ack-ack
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one thing about the bk ammo is if you hit a tank at a weld joint you normally can kill in one pass. T34 are a different story. What I normally try to do if I can not get a steep dive angle is come in on there back side and but two shots in the rear. Doesnt always work but normally have a fairly high sucess rate.
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Both T34 have thinner metal construction for the engine hatch doors behind the turret, 20mm. The IL2 is the easiest platform to take advantage of that fact in a 60-70 degree dive. That gives you the best chance of not being laser guided single skeet shot out of the air while you are hanging in your straight line dive holding rounds on the 20mm engine hatch doors. Your first pass if you hold on target for about 10-20 rounds will smoke the engine.
You can penetrate the doors with the G2 in a single shot dive, but, the pull out from starting your shot at 200-300 is dicey. I have a gunsight that makes single shots easy with the BK 3,7 once you get rid of joystick nose bounce and make your rudder more sensitive to reduce the need for large inputs. G2 dive so slow, I stopped using them against T34 in the game because they are death traps to commander mode gamey shooting BS. In offline testing, starting at 1000 with a single shot, you can smoke the engine or track the T34's. But, in the MA, the time needed to fly straight and setup the aim lets the gamey commander mode kill you just as easily as if the main T34 gun was a destroyer's 5incher. It's also as easy for M3 to kill the pilot as shooting Storchs.
The HurriD, well that's a precision instrument for cracking those engine hatch doors. I use the same gunsight in it. The trick is a 45-60 degree dive at the hatches. Then shoot close and pull out without kissing the tank. I only fire once in each pass because of the induced bounce and loss of targeting. But, it only takes one hit on those doors. Problem again is the gamey commander mode single shot. It's almost as good as the 5incher and it doesn't have the same fuse.
There is a common theme here. As our tank busting planes perform obviously as good at doing that which they did very well in WW2. Hitech gave the tankers a gamey solution that didn't happen in WW2 with WW2 hardware to counter them. I die more often now from not pulling out of steep dives correctly as our master single shot skeet shooters wing me out of the air in our now WW2 tank hunting death traps. The hardware was designed to defeat tanks while flying low and shooting them from 200m-300m in the sides. Not diving on them and maybe pulling out at the last moment knowing penetration is not possible outside of 300m.
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The HurriD, well that's a precision instrument for cracking those engine hatch doors. I use the same gunsight in it. The trick is a 45-60 degree dive at the hatches. Then shoot close and pull out without kissing the tank. I only fire once in each pass because of the induced bounce and loss of targeting. But, it only takes one hit on those doors. Problem again is the gamey commander mode single shot. It's almost as good as the 5incher and it doesn't have the same fuse.
Fortunately the T-34/85 gun has max elevation of 22° only, the T-34/76 has 29°.
When attacking tanks in the Hurri D I actually try to have their turrets pointed at me, which prevents them from shooting at me on egress. I also not only pull up after shooting the volley but also start a turn instantly, just in case the tank driver turned his turret early enough to give him an opportunity to fire at me.
If you dive in steep enough and do as outlined above, you are are almost impossible to get hit by the main gun. Being maingunned in a HurriD (or Il-2) is an extremely rare event to me, usually the result of a very sloppy, hastened attack run (pressing my luck).
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Both T34 have thinner metal construction for the engine hatch doors behind the turret, 20mm. The IL2 is the easiest platform to take advantage of that fact in a 60-70 degree dive. That gives you the best chance of not being laser guided single skeet shot out of the air while you are hanging in your straight line dive holding rounds on the 20mm engine hatch doors. Your first pass if you hold on target for about 10-20 rounds will smoke the engine.
You can penetrate the doors with the G2 in a single shot dive, but, the pull out from starting your shot at 200-300 is dicey. I have a gunsight that makes single shots easy with the BK 3,7 once you get rid of joystick nose bounce and make your rudder more sensitive to reduce the need for large inputs. G2 dive so slow, I stopped using them against T34 in the game because they are death traps to commander mode gamey shooting BS. In offline testing, starting at 1000 with a single shot, you can smoke the engine or track the T34's. But, in the MA, the time needed to fly straight and setup the aim lets the gamey commander mode kill you just as easily as if the main T34 gun was a destroyer's 5incher. It's also as easy for M3 to kill the pilot as shooting Storchs.
The HurriD, well that's a precision instrument for cracking those engine hatch doors. I use the same gunsight in it. The trick is a 45-60 degree dive at the hatches. Then shoot close and pull out without kissing the tank. I only fire once in each pass because of the induced bounce and loss of targeting. But, it only takes one hit on those doors. Problem again is the gamey commander mode single shot. It's almost as good as the 5incher and it doesn't have the same fuse.
There is a common theme here. As our tank busting planes perform obviously as good at doing that which they did very well in WW2. Hitech gave the tankers a gamey solution that didn't happen in WW2 with WW2 hardware to counter them. I die more often now from not pulling out of steep dives correctly as our master single shot skeet shooters wing me out of the air in our now WW2 tank hunting death traps. The hardware was designed to defeat tanks while flying low and shooting them from 200m-300m in the sides. Not diving on them and maybe pulling out at the last moment knowing penetration is not possible outside of 300m.
Bustr, is it a simple Dot sight?
By the way, thanks for making your sight packs.
~S~ Buck
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Bustr, is it a simple Dot sight?
By the way, thanks for making your sight packs.
~S~ Buck
PM me, I'll send you a copy. It's simplicity will astound you.
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I cant remember the last time I was killed by a main gun of a tank while attacking in the vertical. I cant even remember "ever" having been.
Often, when we had F3 in the IL2, I was able to dive as close to 100% vertical as you can imagine and pop the lid of anything very easily. T34s I really never bothered doing that with cause a 60% dive onto the rear hatch always worked. The weak spot on the top turret was a bit small so it was easier getting to the rear hatches. Tigers had nice fat thin armor on the top turret and both front and rear. I think they had a 25mm section on the top of both. Sadly i got rid of all the pics of hitting all the weak spots of all the tanks. I'd say my most common convergence of the big 37mms was 250 or 300. The better I got at it the closer i made it. It would be unusual for me to shoot more then 2 volleys of 2 from any of the platforms in a single pass. I might hose a Panzer cause they were just easy meat. The only ord i carried was Soviet rockets for tracking T34s which could make life difficult if they kept turning and moving. I never liked dropping bombs on tanks. To easy.
I tried inverted attacks to come straight down with limited success. You just cant use a lot of rudder to line up on the dive cause its not precise enough, rudder can only be used at the beginning of the dive and from there on you have to use precise stick. For inverted attacks the Hurri-D is best due to its climb, roll, dive, recover characteristics. Its nimble, easy to control, maneuverable, and rebuilds it "E" best of them all. Put AP rounds in that Yak-9T and i could cause a lot of tanks a lot of problems. But we cant do that cause it would insult actual History. :salute