Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Volron on March 13, 2014, 07:20:18 PM
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What is your take on this situation?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNLAgJCBjt0
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That`s sad and extremely unfortunate... You must be some kinda sociopath to not feel horrible after such an incident....
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That`s sad and extremely unfortunate... You must be some kinda sociopath to not feel horrible after such an incident....
Heart breaking situation for the old man and the officer.
That said, our society is entirely too paranoid, including the police. Too many innocent folks are being shot by cops who are almost conditioned to over-react. A 13 year-old shot in the back by a cop who mistook a toy rifle for a real firearm. A 25 year-old shot on his way home from an airsoft park, because the cop saw a toy MP-5 on the backseat of his car. A 40 year-old woman shot because she took her cell phone out of her pocket. Too many cops are entirely too wired... My brother is a Deputy Sheriff, and he tells me that many of his fellows are completely paranoid and over-react. Usually, he said, it's those who pass on voluntary training. He hits Hogan's Alley and simulated combat as often as possible. Keeps him sharp and gives him the confidence not to panic when exposed to real and imagined situations.
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Also, what bothered me most was not the officer who panicked. The officer telling him that, "you did what you had to do" repeatedly annoyed me very much. The fact is that he didn't have to shoot, he did so out of panic. I would argue that he was insufficiently trained.
Sure, the old fella should have stayed in his truck, but getting out with one's cane should not be a death sentence, should it?
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Too many innocent folks are being shot by cops
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A 13 year-old shot in the back by a cop who mistook a toy rifle for a real firearm. A 25 year-old shot on his way home from an airsoft park, because the cop saw a toy MP-5 on the backseat of his car. A 40 year-old woman shot because she took her cell phone out of her pocket.
This.
And remember those two asian ladies who had their car shot up by the police during the hunt for that Dorner guy? Absolute madness.
Too many dangerous idiots being given a gun & a badge ;(
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Also, what bothered me most was not the officer who panicked. The officer telling him that, "you did what you had to do" repeatedly annoyed me very much. The fact is that he didn't have to shoot, he did so out of panic. I would argue that he was insufficiently trained.
Sure, the old fella should have stayed in his truck, but getting out with one's cane should not be a death sentence, should it?
as always you, sir, are the calm voice of reason.
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As I said in another thread, cops are lousy shooters. Good thing in this case as the man is expected to recover.
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It is certainly a tragic event. Tragic all the way around. :(
I understand how the officer mistook the cane for a gun. There are all kinds of discussion points that could be had from this encounter. Thousands of them.
Having been a volunteer law enforcement over 8 years now, I've seen a lot of bad things and witnessed many more things that were a slit second from going the same way that very encounter happened. It isn't fun.
Hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20. If it were to have been me in that scenario I would like to think I'd have not fired so quickly, but again I can see how the officer would have thought the driver grabbed a shotgun instead of a cane. With my training and experience I'd probably have drawn, started closing the gap, and be hollering commands for him to XYZ. But again, hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20. I doubt I would have fired that quickly and that many times, I'm much more of a "aim, squeeze, shoot, repeat" kind of guy. I don't go for the rapid fire crap being taught at the academies.
Some things the younger guys need to be taught is that 40+ years ago it would almost SOP for drivers to get out of their cars, at least here in rural midwest. Heck, when I was in high school in the late 80's I got out of my car when pulled over by LEO's and never one was scolded back in to the car. Now, it is standard that the drivers stay in their car. Period. Unless called back. It is "for their safety", and "officer safety", too. This older timer got out of his car, newer/younger COP saw it as a challenge (probably. He was taught that). The old timer reached in to the back of his truck and pulled out when appeared to be a long arm, when in fact it was a cane to help him walk back and meet the COP half way like he had done 40 years ago, etc.
I will not fault the COP. I am not giving him a free ride, but having been in his shoes enough times I understand the predicament. I will not fault the driver, he did nothing wrong. This is just a horrible thing.
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As I said in another thread, cops are lousy shooters. Good thing in this case as the man is expected to recover.
and be careful with over-generalizing. Not all "cops are lousy shooters". It has more to do with the sudden adrenaline rush than the lack of ability. I bet if I would to stand 5 yards to your right and shot spitwads at you while you're shooting for groups you'd shoot half your rounds off paper. Understood?
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wow.
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This is not good for any1.
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Yup, in the olden days you got out of your car and walked back to the squad car, especially if it was raining, a sign of respect. Now if you don't have your hands on the wheel you might get popped.
shamus
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Heart breaking situation for the old man and the officer.
That said, our society is entirely too paranoid, including the police. Too many innocent folks are being shot by cops who are almost conditioned to over-react. A 13 year-old shot in the back by a cop who mistook a toy rifle for a real firearm. A 25 year-old shot on his way home from an airsoft park, because the cop saw a toy MP-5 on the backseat of his car. A 40 year-old woman shot because she took her cell phone out of her pocket. Too many cops are entirely too wired... My brother is a Deputy Sheriff, and he tells me that many of his fellows are completely paranoid and over-react. Usually, he said, it's those who pass on voluntary training. He hits Hogan's Alley and simulated combat as often as possible. Keeps him sharp and gives him the confidence not to panic when exposed to real and imagined situations.
This and your other post.
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See Rule #4
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I watched the video again...
In my opinion, the officer never gave the old man an opportunity to do anything he was asked to do. He opened fire just 2.7 seconds after he uttered his first word to the old man. Even if the old man understood what the cop was saying, it certainly would have required several more seconds to comply.
This is what happens when the cop was:
1) Poorly trained
2) Overly paranoid and frightened.
3) Unable to use reasoning skills under stress
Finally, his shots were all over the place, some striking the truck several feet from the old fella. He emptied his pistol in less than 4 seconds. Everything he did was out of being panicked.
That, my friends is due to inadequate training.
And yes, most cops are not very skilled with their handgun. That's because most cops are not into firearms and shooting sports. Our local police department requires that the officers qualify annually with their service pistol. 50 rounds fired at paper at 7 yards. I could train Stevie Wonder to hit a person 21 feet in front of him.
Being properly trained means developing muscle memory, and to do that, you have to shoot often. Very often. Training is what overcomes the loss of fine motor skills when adrenalin is flowing. Slow, deliberate fire defeats panicked spraying every time. A couple of years ago, three NYPD cops opened fire on a armed felon on a public sidewalk. They fired 44 rounds, and scored two superficial hits on the skell. They also wounded two bystanders, shot out three storefront windows and damaged two parked cars. A fiasco, at best. Why did they perform so badly? They were mentally and physically unprepared for a gunfight. Most NYPD officers couldn't hit their backside with a chair.
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first time I saw the video, I noticed the old man had a cane and not a gun.
semp
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It is certainly a tragic event. Tragic all the way around. :(
I understand how the officer mistook the cane for a gun. There are all kinds of discussion points that could be had from this encounter. Thousands of them.
Having been a volunteer law enforcement over 8 years now, I've seen a lot of bad things and witnessed many more things that were a slit second from going the same way that very encounter happened. It isn't fun.
Hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20. If it were to have been me in that scenario I would like to think I'd have not fired so quickly, but again I can see how the officer would have thought the driver grabbed a shotgun instead of a cane. With my training and experience I'd probably have drawn, started closing the gap, and be hollering commands for him to XYZ. But again, hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20. I doubt I would have fired that quickly and that many times, I'm much more of a "aim, squeeze, shoot, repeat" kind of guy. I don't go for the rapid fire crap being taught at the academies.
Some things the younger guys need to be taught is that 40+ years ago it would almost SOP for drivers to get out of their cars, at least here in rural midwest. Heck, when I was in high school in the late 80's I got out of my car when pulled over by LEO's and never one was scolded back in to the car. Now, it is standard that the drivers stay in their car. Period. Unless called back. It is "for their safety", and "officer safety", too. This older timer got out of his car, newer/younger COP saw it as a challenge (probably. He was taught that). The old timer reached in to the back of his truck and pulled out when appeared to be a long arm, when in fact it was a cane to help him walk back and meet the COP half way like he had done 40 years ago, etc.
I will not fault the COP. I am not giving him a free ride, but having been in his shoes enough times I understand the predicament. I will not fault the driver, he did nothing wrong. This is just a horrible thing.
I agree. I feel he was too quick on the trigger but that's pretty easy to say sitting here in my chair. God I hope that old man recovers.
The awful truth is you never know what you're going to run in to and mistakes in that field cost lives.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpmp13ePolI
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Tragic video with a clearly over reacting officer. Apart from his terrible shooting and poor judgment, the issue is clearly that you simply do not know what you are facing in any traffic stop. I policed unarmed in the UK for a number of years and can think of only a couple of occasions in the thousands of incidents that I dealt with, where I would have wanted a firearm, and none where I needed one.
If you are going to allow the entire populous to be armed then incidents such as this are going to happen. When an LEO is expecting to perceive a gun rather than a stick because more people carry weapons than walking sticks. The problem is that when officers use a grntly gently approach you get the Texas situation with an AR15 armed lunatic killing an officer because he was reticent about using force.
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. Deleted due to presence of several morons.
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Yeah I can walk down my block and point out 3 guys who tell the champagne bottle story. Pretty sure every goof that's pinned on a badge has had a civilian try to make a phone look like a gun. Happens every day....seemingly. They really do start to believe that crap. That's why leo's should be allowed 5 year contracts max. Any longer rots their brains.
Fact is this putz had an old man stopped, lit up brighter than daytime, with is wife next to him. If he didn't notice the limp he needs reassignment. If he was surprised that a limping old guy would reach for anything BUT a cane he needs to be fired. Showing remorse after screwing the pooch is not a reason to allow somebody with judgement that poor to run around armed.
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See above last post.
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After reading this thread, I have a few blanket statements-
First, give yourself some dignity and do not call LEO's "pigs". It degrades the user of the term far worse than using it to label a LEO.
From there, I again remind everyone who is judging that they have the luxury of hindsight, your chair, and Hollywood movies to base your opinions on. Oh, mind the lack of experience, too.
Someone mentioned the driver was "lit up brighter than daytime", I'd like to point out that no he wasn't. The flashing lights, shifting shadows (other traffic, glare, reflection, etc), and noise can all play tricks on your eyes. Trust me. Go back and listen to the passing cars for the noise and pay attention to how the lighting changes. No, it isn't giving the LEO a free pass but what some are claiming as "obvious", isn't. Again, hindsight is 20/20. Never forget that. We can sit here and say "He should have...", or "I would have...", etc. The LEO didn't have that luxury.
"This is what happens when the cop was: 1) Poorly trained; 2) Overly paranoid and frightened.; 3) Unable to use reasoning skills under stress" - 1> The LEO probably had 12-15 weeks of nothing but training in laws, scenarios, communication skills (PR), weapons (5+ weeks alone), first aid, etc, etc. He was highly trained, but possibly/probably short on experience. I do not know. 2> Paranoid and frightened? Perhaps, I don't blame him. It is not easy being around people that would rather slit your throat than look at you on a consistent basis. 3> Unable to reason under stress??? Too quick on the draw? Maybe. Even though I've been in enough situations similar and I have not drawn and fired, I will not fault the LEO. He did what he thought he needed to do. On the average, officers have less than a second or two to make life saving decisions. For this one video that turned very bad for both the driver and the LEO I can show you dozens more videos that turned out very bad for a complacent LEO due to a hostile driver.
For those of you spouting off on the LEO's lack of accuracy- I say *again* that under stress the motor skills go to Hell. Try it sometime. Stand on a firing line, 7 yards from your target, and have your buddy stand behind you maybe 20 or 30 yards back and shoot a paintball gun at your back. Tell me how good your groups are when someone is firing at you. No, this LEO wasn't being fired at but he thought he was going to be fired upon. As far as his accuracy goes he fired 8 times in a short span at a target 20+ yards, under the stress of "driver is going to shoot". It is the same -hair standing on the back of the neck- feeling when the adrenaline kicks in. I've only been shot at with simunitions and paintballs. They both hurt like a **** and I knew I wasn't going to die if I got hit, but my accuracy went to Hell in a hand basket when I heard that "pop pop pop" of the sim-/paintball gun. Breathing becomes harder, vision becomes tricky, fingers get heavy and actions become delayed. Oh, and the mind and the body don't always communicate worth a hoot, either. Been there and done that. FWIW, try hitting a target at 20+ yards with 8 shots in under 3 seconds without any stress. See how well you do. ;)
My biggest pet peeve with how LEO's are trained is the "rapid fire" in which they/we are taught. I've disagreed with more than one instructor on the pace of what is and is not an appropriate rate of fire in different scenarios. Mind you, I did it off the line in order to not show disrespect and I did it in a discussion and not a debate format.
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Clearly a wrongful shooting. Just like the incident in Texas last year where a cop opened fire on a driver for getting his wallet out in a very similar situation. That cop unintentionally missed. That cop was fired. If Mr. Canipe does not survive this cop committed manslaughter imho, and like all the others he should be charged.
https://www.google.no/search?q=cop+manslaughter
Non-lethal alternatives, yes. Warning shots, yes. Police should not be allowed to use deadly force unless they or other members of the public are being fired upon.
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No rational human being can recover mentally from shooting an old man and his walking stick, I feel sorrow for both parties watching this film, it really is a tragedy.
On a side note, It makes me glad that British police officers are unarmed (with guns) along with the day to day general public. Over-reacting/Panicking with a tazer and pepper spray is less likely to kill.
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I would have to question the officers eye site. Not being able to see far things clearly would be a likely cause for mistaking a cane for a shotgun.
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This is what happens when the cop was:
1) Poorly trained
2) Overly paranoid and frightened.
3) Unable to use reasoning skills under stress
Exactly right, If you don't understand the risk involved, don't take the job, more testing and more training before armed police should be allowed out in public, Weapons locked up in the car might help to make the officer think before he acts,, no need for a sidearm to give out a traffic ticket! Just my two cents,
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Police should not be allowed to use deadly force unless they or other members of the public are being fired upon.
Really? So you're going to wait until the guy pulls the trigger before you defend yourself. Yeah right. Spoken like someone who has never been there.
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I've been there, though wearing a different uniform... And the guys who sometimes took shots at us were Bosnian Serb militants with some serious firepower. We were not allowed to shoot first. The Police in my country are also not allowed to shoot first unless they've been cleared to do so by the police chief. They're not even allowed to take their guns out of their patrol cars unless given permission by radio, or unless the criminals are firing on them or others.
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I've been there, though wearing a different uniform... And the guys who sometimes took shots at us were Bosnian Serb militants with some serious firepower. We were not allowed to shoot first. The Police in my country are also not allowed to shoot first unless they've been cleared to do so by the police chief. They're not even allowed to take their guns out of their patrol cars unless given permission by radio, or unless the criminals are firing on them or others.
Norway ,,sounds nice
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See Rule #4
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Norway ,,sounds nice
Don't get me wrong... If the police expect trouble, or are going into a known dangerous situation they're all ninjaed up and may also have been granted the right to shoot first. However, just policing traffic or patrolling the streets they are unarmed, but with guns available in their cars. The guns are sealed, and if that seal is broken there's a ton of paperwork and needed justification and hearing boards etc... However, we never have old folks getting gunned down for wielding a cane...
(http://www.cdn.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00994/UP1_994299a.jpg)
(http://pub.cdn.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00823/politi_823537i.jpg)
(http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/660/660329/6603291/jpg/active/960x.jpg)
But also...
(http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/211/211494/21149434/jpg/active/978x.jpg)
(http://daisy.sodor.no/generated/47812_2436342.jpg)
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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I'll say this again so that no one misunderstands... I place the blame on a lack of training, not on the police officer himself. He reacted like many people would have to a perceived threat. Therein is the problem. As a supposedly trained police officer, he should not absolutely panic. That level of fear distorts reasoning ability. He saw a shotgun where none existed. I believe that he believed what he saw. That doesn't provide absolution. Adequate training may have resulted in a different outcome.
Had a civilian mistakenly thought someone was pulling a shotgun, and shot that person, do you think that the police would not arrest him? What are the odds that the DA will not file charges? There is, like it or not, a double standard. If anything, the "trained, professional law enforcement officer" should be held to a much higher standard than a civilian.
That old man should never have been fired upon, period. The fact that he was points to training and the mindset of the officer.
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BS statement. You only hear about the times when an officer shoots….you almost never hear of the times when the officer is able to solve the issue without shooting. The latter happens far more often than the former.
In 20 years as a police officer I pointed my gun at people several times, I only pulled the trigger one time. A couple of those times when I didn't shoot were as you describe with an armed individual…I didn't shoot because he didn't bring the weapon to bear on anyone.
Well the rifle was pointed at me.
Little Italy is not one of the nicer areas in town.
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Give Volron credit. This Bash the Police thread was hidden very slyly. He even got me pondering and reminiscing until some bonehead brought me back to reality.
For you current and former Police Officers...
I hope you all learned something of note from all "current and former". Or.....brothers of same. :lol
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Give Volron credit. This Bash the Police thread was hidden very slyly. He even got me pondering and reminiscing until some bonehead brought me back to reality.
I hope you all learned something of note from all "current and former". Or.....brothers of same. :lol
What is your take on this situation?
I figure this was solid enough.
This turned into a "Bash the Police" and a "my country's police is better than US Police" thread of it's own accord. There are folks here that are current officers, as well as those who were officers for a good while and now retired, that could better explain this. I wanted their take on the situation is all. The common input of the situation from them seem to be as follows: Poor Training.
When I looked at the video, I quickly thought, "Stupid old man. What the hell were you thinking!?". In the end, I honestly cannot fault the officer himself for how it unfolded. Better training would have resulted in a different outcome however, based off the comments made by our current and former officers. I feel bad for the officer as well, as it will haunt him for the rest of his life. I honestly would be surprised, however, if the old man admits that he could avoided it as well if he had simply stayed in his truck. Instead, you will VERY LIKELY see a follow up with some kind of law suit. It's sad.
Skuzzy, I request that you lock this thread. It's obvious that some folks here are taking the opportunity to bash police officers over this incident. This isn't something I wanted and I rather you locked it now vs letting it go on to allow the police bashers and the country thumpers a chance to continue with their <left out to avoid a rule 4>.