Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Latrobe on March 19, 2014, 08:52:15 AM
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Some of you may remember how I always talk about creating angles to work with in a fight. "What are these angles he's talking about? I think Latrobe is just being silly!" Well I'm going to hopefully explain these angles and how they work to you right now! :)
Here's the situation. I'm in my 109F4 and there is an enemy 109F4 diving down on me from my high 7-8 o'clock position.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/angles1_zpsbcb38a05.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/angles1_zpsbcb38a05.png.html)
If I continue on my current course and do nothing then the 109F will very obviously drop in onto my 6 and shoot me down.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/angles1-3_zps620b2c18.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/angles1-3_zps620b2c18.png.html)
If I try to turn away or dive away from the 109F then again he can easily drop down on my 6 with more speed and kill me.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/angles1-5_zpse18f36dc.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/angles1-5_zpse18f36dc.png.html)
Neither of those choices create any angles for me to work with and exposes my 6 o'clock and that's why they will get me killed very quickly. But what are these angles that I am talking about? Well if you have a plane behind you giving chase and you continue to fly straight then you will both be flying the same course. No angle is created and you are going to get no where. In a Co-E chase, if you have someone 600 yards off your 6 and you're both flying at roughly the same speed then if you continue to fly a straight course for 10 seconds then you'll be in a different part of the airspace but you will still have that enemy plane 600 yards off your 6. Nothing has changed and nothing will ever change as long as you fly the same straight path. Worst case scenario is your opponent has more speed than you in which case eventually he is going to catch you! Best case scenario is you have more speed than him and you will eventually get out of his gun range and into a position where you can reset the fight, but you are not always going to be the faster plane so learning how to work these angles is vitally important.
In this diagram both planes fly the same course. Their flightpaths are parallel to one another and the defending plane gets absolutely no where. The attacker is going to be in that same position no matter how long the defender flies this course.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/AnglesDiag_zps9f439fbf.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/AnglesDiag_zps9f439fbf.png.html)
What the defending plane wants to do is change his flightpath. He does not want their flightpaths to be parallel to one another. In this next diagram we have the defending plane flying a slightly different course than the attacker. At some point the defender and attacker flightpaths are going to cross over one another. See that area between their flightpaths? Looks kind of like an acute angle that we learned about in school! That's the angles I'm talking about! Those are the angles you want to create to work with. Creating these angles increases closure rate. The larger the angle, the higher the closure rate! It also gets you inside your opponents turn where he can't shoot you and that, along with higher closure rates, forces and overshoot!
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/AnglesDiag2_zps3507280b.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/AnglesDiag2_zps3507280b.png.html)
Now in this last diagram we have the defender flying a flightpath perpendicular to the attacker's. The angle is now much bigger than it was before. A bigger angle means higher closure rates! Higher closure rates and bigger angles means easier overshoots! Trainers call this "pointing your wingtip at your enemy". Why? Because you are literally pointing your wingtip at your enemy! If he's off your wingtip, then he's not on your 6! If he's off your wingtip then you are creating angles. If you're creating angles then you are increasing the closure rate and setting up for the overshoot!
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/AnglesDiag3_zpsafbbede2.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/AnglesDiag3_zpsafbbede2.png.html)
So how do I create these angles to work with in this situation? Well the 109F is diving on me from my high 7-8 o'clock, so I want to turn left and into him (Hey! Boelckes Rule 6!). This will start creating those angles that I want. Those angles will increase the closure rate and the closure rate will also become even higher thanks to the 109F diving and building up speed! My left hand turn will get me inside the 109's turn and he won't be able to get guns on me and overshoot.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/angles1-9_zpsf97b1af0.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/angles1-9_zpsf97b1af0.png.html)
That's exactly what I did and that's exactly what happened! Notice how our flightpaths cross perpendicular to one another? See the angle that I created and worked with? Just as I thought the 109 can not make the turn, can't get the shot, and he overshoots.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/angles2-22_zpsb91a6c89.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/angles2-22_zpsb91a6c89.png.html)
Now all I have to do is reverse my turn back into the 109 and I have gone from the defense to the offence :)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n101/Latrobe_2006/angles3-4_zps21ab44f7.png) (http://s110.photobucket.com/user/Latrobe_2006/media/angles3-4_zps21ab44f7.png.html)
That's how I see angles in a fight. I hope I explained it well enough and it helps you in your flying. Now give it some practice and go kill those red planes! :aok
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First one super lecture on angles.
But, what do you do if the attacker sees the overshoot coming and high yo-yos and or chops throttle. This seems to be especially true when there is a mismatch on climb rates like a 109 and P47. Those k4s shoot up like a rocket.
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First one super lecture on angles.
But, what do you do if the attacker sees the overshoot coming and high yo-yos and or chops throttle. This seems to be especially true when there is a mismatch on climb rates like a 109 and P47. Those k4s shoot up like a rocket.
Not to answer for Latrobe, but the fight resets, and the attacker has to dive down again, starting the process again. As the defender, when the attacker zooms, try to create some horizontal separation and slowly bleed away the attacker's E advantage.
Hopefully the attacker will get frustrated and try too hard to get a shot on one of the next attacks, and will overshoot and need to become defensive.
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When you're flying defensive you want to react to what you're opponent does. Watch his moves, what is he doing? What is his plan? In my situation from above I see a 109 high above me getting into position to make an attack run at me. I do not make any big maneuvers because he has yet to make his attack run. He has the altitude advantage which allows him to dictate the fight. He chooses when the fight starts. In a situation like that your first goal is to neutralize the altitude advantage he has and I do that by going into a slow climb away from him to gain altitude and try to get up to him. I watch the 109 and wait for him to make a move. When I see him start diving on me for a shot THEN I make my move. In this case he dove on me from my high 7-8 oclock so I turn left and into him. If he sees what I'm planning and feels he won't make the shot and breaks off the attack, then he is no longer attacking me and I do not need to maneuver anymore. I level off and continue a slow climb to neutralize the altitude advantage. I keep an eye on the 109, watch what he does, what he's planning, and when he starts another attack run THEN I make my move.
Fighting against someone who has the altitude advantage the first thing you must do is take that advantage away from him by either slowly climbing up to him and dodging his attacks, or waiting for him to make a mistake and come down to you.
When you're opponent has the altitude advantage you are purely defensive. You have to wait for your opponent to make the first move and then react to it. If he breaks off his attack in response to you foiling his attack run then break off your defensive move. There's no need to be pulling a defensive turn if no one is currently making an attack run on you.
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Nice wright up Latrobe. :aok
:banana:
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Excellent as always Latrobe :old:
I would like to say, that of the very few outstanding sticks in this game, it's refreshing that you choose to assist other less gifted players, rather than just stooging around racking up a massive score. Commendable :salute
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Excellent!!! Even I understood it. :aok Now putting it into practice is something else, but "practice makes perfect" as the saying goes. Very well done Latrobe. :salute
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Katanso, you mark two weakness I have. I am weak on mentally resetting my plan after the first merge. Second, on offense, I push too hard for the kill instead of waiting for the defender to make a mistake so it ends up me making the mistake.
Latrobe, I have seen you work the overshoot to perfection. Maybe I am making my defensive move too soon telegraphing my plan to the attacker. Is there a general distance from the high attacker after he makes his dive that you make your move?
BTW, my K/D is the best ever since I started following your lectures and dogfight reviews.
Deep in my psyche, where I hide my ill wishes, I hope none of the reds follows your articles. :devil
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The distance at which I make my move depends on the plane matchup and speeds of both our planes. For example if I'm in my 109 and the attacker is a high P51. Let's say the P51 is coming down FAST at around 450mph, and I am also very fast at about 400mph. My 109 is very sluggish at these speeds while a P51 can maneuver with ease all the way up to about 500mph (maybe even 550). Because I am so fast and it will take a little while to roll my plane and maneuver to create the angles I want so I will start to make my move at around 2K away.
Now let's say the P51 is coming down at 450mph but I am at 250mph. My 109 can maneuver quite easily at this speed so I will wait until the P51 gets to about 1.2K (just before the icon changes to 1000) away before I start making my move. This way I use up as little speed as I can in my move and my sudden maneuver at such a high closure rate will give the P51 very little to no time to react.
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Not to answer for Latrobe, but the fight resets
No, it doesn't; that is, not if done correctly (which is up to the attacking pilot - the defending pilot has no say or influence over this).
The guy who went into a break turn has just bled his energy state down. A proper follow-through is a high yoyo if the speed differential is great (roughly ~80kts or so). If it's less, then the attacker should perform a rollaway. Either way, the attacker will end up behind the defender at a high 5-7 position when done correctly. The defender has to either dive or perform another break turn, burning even more of their energy state. You can wash, rinse, and repeat this all the way to the deck, until the defender has nowhere to go and is entirely out of energy.
Break turns are great for using an opponent's energy advantage against themselves when you cannot equalize your combat state to match your opponent, but they're very easy to counter and should not be used as a primary maneuver to gain an advantage.
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If it's less, then the attacker should perform a rollaway.
Lag roll?
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Lag roll?
Yes - same maneuver.
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From your reply Latrobe I can see I need to be a better E estimator than I am. Maybe then I could recognize when to make my turn or someone who is working the throttle very well to counter my angle change. Man, this dogfighting stuff can get complicated.
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Judging E is definitely one of the more difficult things to master, especially if your opponent is working his throttle. A number of times I'd see someone diving in on me from high and I'd do my usual break turn to use his speed against him. Then I'm thinking "Ok, why hasn't he overshot yet? He should have way more speed than that!" It's at the moment that I suddenly realize he's probably chopped his throttle and now I must tighten my turn or do something else immediately before he shoots me.
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Judging E is definitely one of the more difficult things to master, especially if your opponent is working his throttle. A number of times I'd see someone diving in on me from high and I'd do my usual break turn to use his speed against him. Then I'm thinking "Ok, why hasn't he overshot yet? He should have way more speed than that!" It's at the moment that I suddenly realize he's probably chopped his throttle and now I must tighten my turn or do something else immediately before he shoots me.
Next chance I will go to the DA and work on E judging and my turn timing. Just staying at the take alt will get me low on most there. Darn good practice.
Delirum is one of the best in throttle management. Sometimes I feel like his 38 is a kite over my shoulder, and I am running all over the place pulling the kite-string.
Thanks for the help.
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No, it doesn't; that is, not if done correctly (which is up to the attacking pilot - the defending pilot has no say or influence over this).
The guy who went into a break turn has just bled his energy state down. A proper follow-through is a high yoyo if the speed differential is great (roughly ~80kts or so). If it's less, then the attacker should perform a rollaway. Either way, the attacker will end up behind the defender at a high 5-7 position when done correctly. The defender has to either dive or perform another break turn, burning even more of their energy state. You can wash, rinse, and repeat this all the way to the deck, until the defender has nowhere to go and is entirely out of energy.
Break turns are great for using an opponent's energy advantage against themselves when you cannot equalize your combat state to match your opponent, but they're very easy to counter and should not be used as a primary maneuver to gain an advantage.
What I put in bold and red is how the fight resets. The attacker has to become aggressive again, and the defender has to defend again. You're confirming what I'm saying.
The defender needs to create separation, force the guy to miss again, and start neutralizing his E advantage.
It also doesn't need to be a completely flat break turn; that's situational. Depending on the plane types, their E retention, and their performance, it can put you at a much worse disadvantage. A 109K4 or Spit 8 can easily break flat, reverse, and have the power to climb and get a shot against most planes. Put a 51 in the defensive role, and it's not going to be able to perform the same.
Personally, I don't use a flat break turn, and instead try to get the nose down to trade E states and keep options open.
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What I put in bold and red is how the fight resets. The attacker has to become aggressive again, and the defender has to defend again. You're confirming what I'm saying.
The defender needs to create separation, force the guy to miss again, and start neutralizing his E advantage.
It also doesn't need to be a completely flat break turn; that's situational. Depending on the plane types, their E retention, and their performance, it can put you at a much worse disadvantage. A 109K4 or Spit 8 can easily break flat, reverse, and have the power to climb and get a shot against most planes. Put a 51 in the defensive role, and it's not going to be able to perform the same.
Personally, I don't use a flat break turn, and instead try to get the nose down to trade E states and keep options open.
Yeah, I think you are both essentially saying the same thing. The position (attacker at high six) resets, but the fight is still on and a good attacker can (and should) keep the pressure on.
The key as the attacker is to maintain offensive position (hence the yo-yo or lag roll) and keep the defender turning until you have a shot angle or enough E loss by the defender to simply saddle up for a shot. Normally, against a good defender this means first bleeding him down in terms of altitude, and and then speed, so he can no longer break nose down. I think a common mistake during this is to extend too far up and away before pressing the attack, as this just lets the defender regain more E after his break turn.
The key as the defender is to get the attacker to miss and overshoot while you have enough energy to reverse and capitalize on a mistake -- either the attacker passing too far below you OR losing speed by pulling G's turning with you in your break. I think this is why Mir's point about "breaking slightly nose down" is good, because by doing this you break while gaining a little speed to "S-break" (reverse) back in behind the attacker if he makes a mistake.
On a personal note, my introduction to Mir in the MA was in just such a fight (him in a Jug-M and me a Pony-D). I came in about 4K above him and the fight was around 12K. I knew I was against a good stick because of how effective his break turns were and how he managed to stay fast at the expense of a little altitude each pass. So, I kept making yo-yo's about 7 or 8 times before we were on the deck and he had no altitude to break down with and no speed left to maneuver. It was one of those fights where we both made each other work very hard. I think it was a good example of "both pilots flying it right" (for the most part, even though some of my yo-yos were too high and a bit sloppy) and the defender eventually just running out of options. I remember I was excited by this because I was relatively new to AH at the time and was still working on my reading of energy states, which is crucial in this type of fight.
I also recall it well because, to his credit, Mir PM'd me after to say "Well flown and good fight." I also wasn't recording at the time, so he messaged me the film of the fight here in the forum.
:salute again for that one, Mir.
Hope these comments are helpful.
<S>
Ryno
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What I put in bold and red is how the fight resets. The attacker has to become aggressive again, and the defender has to defend again. You're confirming what I'm saying.
Unless the attacker breaks off, the defender has never stopped being defensive. It's not a reset unless the defender is able to reenter the fight to from a neutral or offensive position. Otherwise, it never changed.
A break turn will not reset the fight - a break turn creates an overshoot situation. Depending on how the attacker responds (in layman's terms, if he screws up), you have the potential to be able to reset the fight.
To reset the fight, you have to change the angle and energy situation of the attacker relative to the defender - your series of break turns doesn't accomplish that. In fact, it simply burns your E reservoir while allowing the attacker to maintain a perched, rear 3-9 position on you. In essence, nothing is changing whatsoever, except for the defender's relative energy state.
I'll be more than happy to go to the DA with you and start with a setup that mirrors this post (same plane, me as the attacker, you as the defender) and demonstrate first hand how to run someone all the way down to the deck, forcing them to use break turns to burn their energy. I can post the film here afterwards as well.
Also, describing different plane characteristics is counter-productive to BFM (which is what this is), as BFM is focused on the physics on the maneuver, not on how well the other plane turns or climbs compared to the other (that's ACM). BFM in all military flight schools is taught from a neutral aircraft performance perspective.
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Hey Sky,
Again, I think you are both essentially saying the same thing, but arguing semantics about what it means to "reset" a fight.
What I think Mir meant in his answer that you've "reset the fight" is simply that you've reset the relative starting position: the attacker is still high six and +E. However, this comes at the cost of some E and he admitted that you can't do this indefinitely, as eventually you run out of altitude. I doubt there is any need for you to "prove" that to anyone. (Read my post above where I describe exactly the process you are talking about bleeding the defender's E down as the attacker. I think you may have been typing your reply to Mir while I was typing mine.)
I think all would agree with you that "reset the fight" in a more general term would mean changing the overall dynamics of the fight, including relative E-states. Personally, I tend to think of a fight as "reset" when the attacker and defender have extended from each other far enough to then re-merge in a "new" dynamic. In that sense, I suppose a break turn could reset a fight if the attacker decided to extend and not press the attack. That said, I don't think a discussion on the definition of "reset the fight" is really germane to the topic of break turns and creating overshoot angles.
<S>
Ryno
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That's very incorrect. Unless the attacker breaks off, the defender has never stopped being defensive. It's not a reset unless the defender is able to reenter the fight to from a neutral or offensive position. Otherwise, it never changed. Let's talk basic physics as they pertain to ACM.
At distance, you spot the attacker (let's say it's me). You go into a 2.5G break turn... and I go into a 2.5G turn to match you. Guess what? I'll be able to turn with you, and shoot you, unless you pull harder. You pull 3G's... and I'll pull 3G's. You get the idea.
To correctly break turn, you have to generate AoT in relation to our flight paths. This is most easily done through tight horizontal turns. You can do this through using available G loading, or you can do it by reducing your airspeed to have a tighter turn radius, which functionally has the same effect (you're not pulling as hard, but you'll have bled the same, if not more, energy).
You yank back to that load and you'll outturn me, but you'll drain your energy like nothing else. The thing is, I don't care about the overshoot, I care about using the excess energy I have to force you to bleed yours. I'm going to make sure that you pull more G's than I do... or I'll have a shot.
At the point you've committed to a break turn, I'm going to go vertical and roll with you, and come back down the second you maneuver to disengage from the turn, having maintained my speed advantage. It's simple physics. If you try to roll vertical with me, I'm going to take you up and stall you out. I'm going to mirror everything you do, making every maneuver you perform simply burn more of your energy.
A break turn will not reset the fight - a break turn creates an overshoot situation. Depending on how the attacker responds (in layman's terms, if he screws up), you have the potential to be able to reset the fight.
To reset the fight, you have to change the angle and energy situation of the attacker relative to the defender - your series of break turns doesn't accomplish that. In fact, it simply burns your E reservoir while allowing the attacker to maintain a perched, rear 3-9 position on you. In essence, nothing is changing whatsoever, except for the defender's relative energy state.
I'll be more than happy to go to the DA with you and start with a setup that mirrors this post (same plane, me as the attacker, you as the defender) and demonstrate first hand how to run someone all the way down to the deck, forcing them to use break turns to burn their energy. I can post the film here afterwards as well.
Also, describing different plane characteristics is counter-productive to BFM (which is what this is), as BFM is focused on the physics on the maneuver, not on how well the other plane turns or climbs compared to the other (that's ACM). BFM in all military flight schools is taught from a neutral aircraft performance perspective.
What you just described is not what this thread is about. Of course a low G break turn will be easily matched by an attacker, even more so if it's started at a great distance. You're also negating the use of a breaking into a nose low turn. You're completely talking about the horizontal here. Yes, that will give up energy for nothing in return. And yes, that will just be a series of flat breaks until the fight ends up on the deck.
You're also using semantics about the word "reset" here. It 100% resets to the initial roles in the fight of attacker and defender. Nowhere did I say it resets to a neutral position.
I've done this hundreds, if not thousands of times since playing AW then AH, so I know how it works. I've also already fought you in the MA, and used this type of tactic against you (and the other newer Damned folks), and it's consistently ended up with E states being neutralized, then you guys flying away in Doras, so no thank you for a DA session.
ETA: This wasn't intended to attack the newer Damned folks. I used them as you all fly together and have very similar styles. I realized that the meaning might come across incorrectly. <S>
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All this semantics and Latrobe would still kill us all. :old:
:cry
:D
:joystick:
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Hey Sky,
Again, I think you are both essentially saying the same thing, but arguing semantics about what it means to "reset" a fight.
What I think Mir meant in his answer that you've "reset the fight" is simply that you've reset the relative starting position: the attacker is still high six and +E. However, this comes at the cost of some E and he admitted that you can't do this indefinitely, as eventually you run out of altitude. I doubt there is any need for you to "prove" that to anyone. (Read my post above where I describe exactly the process you are talking about bleeding the defender's E down as the attacker. I think you may have been typing your reply to Mir while I was typing mine.)
I think all would agree with you that "reset the fight" in a more general term would mean changing the overall dynamics of the fight, including relative E-states. Personally, I tend to think of a fight as "reset" when the attacker and defender have extended from each other far enough to then re-merge in a "new" dynamic. In that sense, I suppose a break turn could reset a fight if the attacker decided to extend and not press the attack. That said, I don't think a discussion on the definition of "reset the fight" is really germane to the topic of break turns and creating overshoot angles.
<S>
Ryno
You posted this as I was typing. One of the main points I was trying to make. <S>
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You posted this as I was typing. One of the main points I was trying to make. <S>
Good. I'm glad somebody reads my attempts at diplomacy. :)
Read my early post about our fight as well. I still have that film you sent me that illustrates exactly this topic, but am embarrassed to post it given how bad my yo-yo's were back then. :lol
<S>
Ryno
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Good. I'm glad somebody reads my attempts at diplomacy. :)
Read my early post about our fight as well. I still have that film you sent me that illustrates exactly this topic, but am embarrassed to post it given how bad my yo-yo's were back then. :lol
<S>
Ryno
I just did. It brings back a memory, so I'll need to search through my films too. :) I have a more recent one of you in a 51 with Brooke in 38 against me in 38. No idea how it turned out. Lol <S>
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Thank you for the write up, i almost never remember about the wing tip on enemy rule! its always great info you fellas give to keep people striving to be our best! thank you :salute
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What you just described is not what this thread is about. Of course a low G break turn will be easily matched by an attacker, even more so if it's started at a great distance. You're also negating the use of a breaking into a nose low turn. You're completely talking about the horizontal here. Yes, that will give up energy for nothing in return. And yes, that will just be a series of flat breaks until the fight ends up on the deck.
You're also using semantics about the word "reset" here. It 100% resets to the initial roles in the fight of attacker and defender. Nowhere did I say it resets to a neutral position.
I've done this hundreds, if not thousands of times since playing AW then AH, so I know how it works. I've also already fought you in the MA, and used this type of tactic against you (and the other newer Damned folks), and it's consistently ended up with E states being neutralized, then you guys flying away in Doras, so no thank you for a DA session.
ETA: This wasn't intended to attack the newer Damned folks. I used them as you all fly together and have very similar styles. I realized that the meaning might come across incorrectly. <S>
I'll agree that we're disagreeing on the use of the term "reset." No offense meant.
And yes, the defense you described works well against planes that cannot turn well, such as Doras. Doras do two things really well: go fast and shoot things ;) However, the maneuver is not so easily countered when fighting the same plane or plane with similar maneuverability, which was my point.
-=S=-
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Judging E is definitely one of the more difficult things to master, especially if your opponent is working his throttle. A number of times I'd see someone diving in on me from high and I'd do my usual break turn to use his speed against him. Then I'm thinking "Ok, why hasn't he overshot yet? He should have way more speed than that!" It's at the moment that I suddenly realize he's probably chopped his throttle and now I must tighten my turn or do something else immediately before he shoots me.
If your opponent has reduced throttle in this example as he dives to you. Your turn gives him a 3.0 radii lead window for a snap shot you are flying yourself through. In the case of a P51 boring in at 450. His energy state will make that shot problematical but, if he slows down like a spit8 vet will often do, you will have a nice dance film. Many 109F pilots like Latrobe in the game will have a poni scoobi snack in a few moves if the poni slows down for the attack. The spit8 will hit wep and yoyo or reset if he has experience upon missing the 3.0 radii window.
Most players will never bother to learn gunnery, so these write ups by Lathrobe are survival gems for our environment. In ww2 you were supposed to shoot your enemy, not have a dance contest with him. ACM like we worship in this game was the last resort because you screwed up killing your enemy during your attack and didn't get separation.
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Most players will never bother to learn gunnery, so these write ups by Lathrobe are survival gems for our environment. In ww2 you were supposed to shoot your enemy, not have a dance contest with him. ACM like we worship in this game was the last resort because you screwed up killing your enemy during your attack and didn't get separation.
BS, many pilots in this game have hundreds or thousands more hours of gunnery practice than any real pilot ever did. That is actually one of the factors that makes this different than WWII. Most kills back then were "Surprise, you're dead!", but the choice in a game played on a computer screen is to either eradicate surprise through icons or simulate having legally blind pilots.
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Having the chance for gunnery practice and using that time to practice are the things to remember. If someone wanted to they could but most will not.
Latrobe great write up. :aok
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Having the chance for gunnery practice and using that time to practice are the things to remember. If someone wanted to they could but most will not.
Alot of guys fire at airplanes under "combat" condition in this game more in one day than most real pilots did in their career, and it shows. Hits scored at 800-1000 yards, hits requiring wild amounts of deflection, many people are able to effectively use the Mk. 108 on maneuvering fighters, etc.
Of course, a factor that counterbalances this IMO is the fact that setting your stick and rudder interface up to have some stable pointability in your aircraft can be hard, an art unto itself apparently.
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Katanso, you mark two weakness I have. I am weak on mentally resetting my plan after the first merge. Second, on offense, I push too hard for the kill instead of waiting for the defender to make a mistake so it ends up me making the mistake.
Btw, a kind of philosophical kind of way that I fight is: I fly very loose like water. Like water following how the terrain forms around it, I fly according to how the fight forms around me. I never go into any fight with 1 set plan and stick to just that. The absolute very second I get to icon range and see what kind of plane match up I have on my hands, I start planning out multiple scenarios in my head. What is the most immediate thing I want to do in this situation and match up? Do I want to pick up more speed? Do I want to gain more altitude? Should I fly a bit more passively and wait for my opponent to make a mistake? Or should I be aggressive and go right for the attack? What if I can not achieve the most immediate thing that I want to? What if I can not gain the altitude that I want? I need to have a back up plan for that very scenario. Ok, I am not going to get the altitude I want, so I'll do this instead! This can be pretty overwhelming at first, but after a while you'll start to recognize certain situations where you want to do specific things, and then do other specific thing if you can not achieve what you initially wanted, and so on and so forth.
If the water wants to go right, but the the terrain forces the water to go left, then the water has to flow with the terrain and go right. If I want to pull a certain maneuver, but it's going to get me killed, then I do not pulled that maneuver. Instead, I pull the move that the immediate situation calls for!
No fight has a set in stone way of fighting. Every single fight is different, and you have to react immediately to how the fight develops. Even if the fights are a same plane match up. Say a 109G2 vs a P-47D-40. Let's say both planes are co-alt and same speed. BOTH planes could pull a wide variety of different moves in the merge alone, and every single one of those moves has another set of different moves that both planes can pull. Those moves as well have another set of moves that both planes can pull. This is just 1 specific scenario as well. Let's say the 109G-2 is 50mph faster than the P47D40 on a Co-alt merge. The same principle applies. Both planes have a wide variety of different moves they can pull that are different from the previous scenario, and those moves lead to more moves that both planes can pull, and so on and so on. Let's say the 109G-2 is 100mph faster than the P47D40 on a co-alt merge. Yet again both planes have another wide variety of moves they can both pull that are yet again different from the previous two scenarios, and yet again those moves lead to an even more vast array of different moves. We've only been discussing speed differences too! We have to take into account altitude differences as well as speed differences. We also have to take into account the different strengths and weaknesses of both aircraft (which alone, can be quite A LOT!). The short story here is, I have NEVER.... NEVER!!!... been in two fights that have been the same in my 7+ years of playing this game. Even when the plane match up was exactly the same!
You might feel overwhelmed with all these decision makings at first, but eventually you will start to build a wealth of knowledge of things to do and not to do in specific scenarios. Ok, I have an A6M off my 9 o'clock and I'm in a P-51D. My speed is 275mph while he appears to be closing on me from slightly higher than me. I need to do this in order to win this fight, but if I can not achieve this then I need to to this or this, or maybe even this which will set me up for a better position as well.
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If your opponent has reduced throttle in this example as he dives to you. Your turn gives him a 3.0 radii lead window for a snap shot you are flying yourself through. In the case of a P51 boring in at 450. His energy state will make that shot problematical but, if he slows down like a spit8 vet will often do, you will have a nice dance film. Many 109F pilots like Latrobe in the game will have a poni scoobi snack in a few moves if the poni slows down for the attack. The spit8 will hit wep and yoyo or reset if he has experience upon missing the 3.0 radii window.
Most players will never bother to learn gunnery, so these write ups by Lathrobe are survival gems for our environment. In ww2 you were supposed to shoot your enemy, not have a dance contest with him. ACM like we worship in this game was the last resort because you screwed up killing your enemy during your attack and didn't get separation.
How is a good way to learn to shoot. That is my downfall. I can hardly hit anything when I am on them. I am a horrible shot but I dont know what to do to get better.
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How is a good way to learn to shoot. That is my downfall. I can hardly hit anything when I am on them. I am a horrible shot but I dont know what to do to get better.
not to answer for bustr....
but I found staying in 1 plane has helped tremendously :aok
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Thanks Latrobe and those that contributed to this discussion.
My gunnery is decent; better than 9%
My offensive tactics (with an advantage); OK
My defensive tactics; royally suxxor
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How is a good way to learn to shoot. That is my downfall. I can hardly hit anything when I am on them. I am a horrible shot but I dont know what to do to get better.
What INK Says...
not to answer for bustr....
but I found staying in 1 plane has helped tremendously :aok
Is very helpful. Bustr has some great training sites and I hope he posts them with a "brief" :rofl write up on how to use them.
Some things to do to help you...
Films your fights, watch the film and pause them when you fire shots that you hit with. While paused check the distance you are to the target. Keep a record and after awhile you'll see your self firing at the same general ranges. Set your convergence to what ever that range is.
You'll hear "get close, then get closer!", but if your always shooting around the 400 range then that is where you want the best punch.
Fly smooth. the less you jerk around the better you will be able to put rounds where you want them.
Don't force the shot. If you dive in pull your lead and the target moves farther than you thought it would and you don't have the shot you set up for, don't force a shot, ease off the stick zoom away and come back for another pass. If turnin n and a burnin, keep with it until you set up another shot. Forcing it here will throw you wayyyyy out of position and give the shot to the other guy.
Once you start getting hits at your convergence, and learn to be smooth, and learn which shots to take and when not to force the issue, THEN pull your convergence in and get closer.
By doing these things I went from 2% (which is about average BTW) to being able to stay in the 5% area.
oh, and one other little thing.....
PRACTICE! :rofl
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not to answer for bustr....
but I found staying in 1 plane has helped tremendously :aok
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Sorry Fugi,
Brief would only be if I talked to wpeters in the TA or someplace like that. Gunnery is simpler to speak about. It just takes a lot of words when you write about it.
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INK is correct.
Many players fly a number of rides for various reasons. All of them have completely different ballistic outcomes due to the combination of the rides nature and guns. Flying a ride for longer than a single tour will teach you that ride along with the gunnery "for that ride". Question will be, if you learn the gunnery as a reflex, effectively the icing on your ACM cake. Or as a premeditated function in that ride. Still many of us over the years have experienced the cloitus interruptus at the end of an ACM dance when what looked like a done deal, was a clean miss.
Shooting from a wing gun mounted centric fighter or nose\HUB gun mounted centric fighter are two different dog breeds of shooting. But, all dogs are biologically the same. Constantly switching between rides of these types versus different rides of the same type, will confuse gunnery very effectively unless you are very talented at ACM or gunnery itself.
If you are jumping between different fighters every week, gunnery will be confusing other than very close in shooting with little to no deflection. Why Latrobe's ACM analysis are so vital to read. Reflexively your best shooting will be in the ride you spend the most time. And this will be directly due to learning your shooting as a reflex over time in that seat.
As for premeditation, that's any one's guess because the rounds from different guns take a different amount of time to reach 1000ft. Which means whatever you use to gauge your 100mph radii changes for different guns due to their RPM and ft\sec. Then add into that deflection while diving, or climbing, and the effect of E during those maneuvers. Flying a single ride longer than a single tour is the starting point to learning premeditated gunnery. This is easier for players like INK and myself to say with how long we each have been in this game. As a general rule, time and repetition breads efficiency.
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wpeter's,
Hitech's offline drone circle flys the drones at about the same speed gunnery targets were towed in ww2. Basic AAF fixed gunnery training by 1944 in the U.S. was conducted from AT6 mounted with 30.cal and using a 70Mil\65mph ring. From that you learned the basics of fixed gun aerial shooting. You were expected to learn on the job once you got to your combat posting. Ie., your new unit was supposed to bring you up to speed on using a 101Mil\100mph ring and 50cal armament.
So in the offline drone ring, turn on the LCG green cross and fly against the drones from all angles but dead 6. Watch the relationship of the green LCG cross from 400 and closer to whatever you are using as your 100mph radii gauge displayed in your gunsight reflector plate. Be careful, it's very easy to be lazy and shoot past 400 and decide you have the concepts nailed down. In the MA, your combat shots are all inside of 400 happening faster than you think.
Not all soldiers have the skill that a sniper does to hit at 1000yd. But, all soldiers including the sniper at the beginning were taught the same shooting skills in the same way. Stay in the same ride for 3 months. Everyday spend 15-20 minutes in the drone circle with the LCG turned on attacking drones at all angles except for dead 6 shooting only at 400 and closer. Then enter the MA. I use planes like the yak3, Ki43, Brewster, Hurri and 109E for their small size. There is a limited window for rounds to touch something in a 90 degree snap shot from 400 with them. Having a smaller profile leaves you very little room for not being premeditated in your shooting.
Don't worry that they are flying under 300mph in the circle. If you are dancing ACM close in with someone and using throttle management properly, how fast is he or you really traveling?
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Btw, a kind of philosophical kind of way that I fight is: I fly very loose like water.
I fly loose like day old concrete. Well, not that bad but still stiff. I see your point and it is a good one.
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Thanks Latrobe and those that contributed to this discussion.
My gunnery is decent; better than 9%
My offensive tactics (with an advantage); OK
My defensive tactics; royally suxxor
Be radical. Reverse, overshoot agressively while trying to maintain your E and only losing it when the opponent is suckered into a situation he cannot escape from. But then, chop throttle, kick the rudder, open the flaps, use both your turn rate and roll rate as violently as its possible.
It worked quite well for me - was flying a 190D, often defensively.
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Randy1 if you see "Cargnico" online in the MA and want some practice duels in the just send me an ingame PM. I'd be happy to observe and to help.
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Sorry Fugi,
Brief would only be if I talked to wpeters in the TA or someplace like that. Gunnery is simpler to speak about. It just takes a lot of words when you write about it.
------------------------
INK is correct.
Many players fly a number of rides for various reasons. All of them have completely different ballistic outcomes due to the combination of the rides nature and guns. Flying a ride for longer than a single tour will teach you that ride along with the gunnery "for that ride". Question will be, if you learn the gunnery as a reflex, effectively the icing on your ACM cake. Or as a premeditated function in that ride. Still many of us over the years have experienced the cloitus interruptus at the end of an ACM dance when what looked like a done deal, was a clean miss.
Shooting from a wing gun mounted centric fighter or nose\HUB gun mounted centric fighter are two different dog breeds of shooting. But, all dogs are biologically the same. Constantly switching between rides of these types versus different rides of the same type, will confuse gunnery very effectively unless you are very talented at ACM or gunnery itself.
If you are jumping between different fighters every week, gunnery will be confusing other than very close in shooting with little to no deflection. Why Latrobe's ACM analysis are so vital to read. Reflexively your best shooting will be in the ride you spend the most time. And this will be directly due to learning your shooting as a reflex over time in that seat.
As for premeditation, that's any one's guess because the rounds from different guns take a different amount of time to reach 1000ft. Which means whatever you use to gauge your 100mph radii changes for different guns due to their RPM and ft\sec. Then add into that deflection while diving, or climbing, and the effect of E during those maneuvers. Flying a single ride longer than a single tour is the starting point to learning premeditated gunnery. This is easier for players like INK and myself to say with how long we each have been in this game. As a general rule, time and repetition breads efficiency.
=============================================
wpeter's,
Hitech's offline drone circle flys the drones at about the same speed gunnery targets were towed in ww2. Basic AAF fixed gunnery training by 1944 in the U.S. was conducted from AT6 mounted with 30.cal and using a 70Mil\65mph ring. From that you learned the basics of fixed gun aerial shooting. You were expected to learn on the job once you got to your combat posting. Ie., your new unit was supposed to bring you up to speed on using a 101Mil\100mph ring and 50cal armament.
So in the offline drone ring, turn on the LCG green cross and fly against the drones from all angles but dead 6. Watch the relationship of the green LCG cross from 400 and closer to whatever you are using as your 100mph radii gauge displayed in your gunsight reflector plate. Be careful, it's very easy to be lazy and shoot past 400 and decide you have the concepts nailed down. In the MA, your combat shots are all inside of 400 happening faster than you think.
Not all soldiers have the skill that a sniper does to hit at 1000yd. But, all soldiers including the sniper at the beginning were taught the same shooting skills in the same way. Stay in the same ride for 3 months. Everyday spend 15-20 minutes in the drone circle with the LCG turned on attacking drones at all angles except for dead 6 shooting only at 400 and closer. Then enter the MA. I use planes like the yak3, Ki43, Brewster, Hurri and 109E for their small size. There is a limited window for rounds to touch something in a 90 degree snap shot from 400 with them. Having a smaller profile leaves you very little room for not being premeditated in your shooting.
Don't worry that they are flying under 300mph in the circle. If you are dancing ACM close in with someone and using throttle management properly, how fast is he or you really traveling?
Thanks a lot bustr.
Quick question of how to turn the green crosshair on. Also is some way to take more ammunition up there with you
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Randy1 if you see "Cargnico" online in the MA and want some practice duels in the just send me an ingame PM. I'd be happy to observe and to help.
I really appreciate the offer. Will do.
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Thanks a lot bustr.
Quick question of how to turn the green crosshair on. Also is some way to take more ammunition up there with you
You will have to do this in the arena setup for every map you change to offline.
How to enable the following for offline.
1. - Lead Computing Gunsight and Dive Bombing Sight.
2. - .001 Fuel Burn rate.
3. - 10x Ammo.
Clipboard ---> Options
Arena Setup
Environment
Arena Settings
(General Tab)
FlightModeFlags---> Change Button
Dive Bombsight {x}
Lead Computing Gunsight {x}
OK Button then Save
FuelBurnRateMulti---> Change Button
0.001
OK Button then Save
Note: You may have to click on the Weapons tab then click on another and back on the Weapons tab to get the list to populate.
(Weapons Tab)
ManGunnerAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
PlaneAutoAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
PlaneGunAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
OK Button to each then Save
When chasing drones, hit the TAB key to enable the green cross and cycle focus between the drones. When testing rockets or bombing, when you hit the ordinance select key, the green dive bomb cross will show up.
If you are using my Historic Pack where each gunsight has a mil file. If you are using a gunsight with a main ring to judge lead. Try editing the mil file and experiment with changing the very top number between 256, 384, and 400. This will cause you to have to move your default view forward a bit if you don't use TrackIR in 6-axis mode. By doing this you are changing the relationship of the ring radii as a mph gauge to 1000ft.
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good stuff fellas
:salute
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Bustr, you need to enable friendly lock with CRTL and TAB first then tab the target A/C to see the LCG.
Just a slight mistake but then I'd hate to see someone come in here and give you grief over it!
:salute
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Bustr, you need to enable friendly lock with CRTL and TAB first then tab the target A/C to see the LCG.
Just a slight mistake but then I'd hate to see someone come in here and give you grief over it!
:salute
Morph,
I haven't had to use that for a few years. Every time I've performed a clean install now, all I do is what I posted above in the arena setup and start hitting TAB to highlight the drones. I remember having to do it back around 2006ish. I've tried looking for an entry in the settings folder (cfg) files holding that value {CTRL_TAB, (1)} since I regularly backup my folders and copy them forward after a reinstall. But, on a number of occasions since 2006 I've started from scratch recreating all settings by hand except CTRL_TAB.
Am I just very lucky or has something changed. I don't want to confuse anyone trying to use the LCG tool offline. Can you verify this, and if I'm in error, I'll update my AH notebook.
Once you know 50Mil = 100mph at 333yds. The LCG offline, with the drones flying between 200-250 around the circle, becomes a great tool.
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Bustr, you need to enable friendly lock with CRTL and TAB first then tab the target A/C to see the LCG...
When you target the offline drones they aren't friendly. :aok
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When you target the offline drones they aren't friendly. :aok
/nitpick
Not by default, but they can be. When I test vehicles, I often switch do knigths so that they are. :old:
/nitpick off
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Maybe I had a brain fart,ya it happens more than I'd like these days! I havent used the LCG in offline for awhile but I always thought you needed to enable friendly lock to bring up the LCG and the tab key just cycled throught the targets.
If I was wrong I'm sorry for any confussion! In the TA you must enable friendly lock then press tab to bring up the LCG.
I think I'll go back to reading more and commenting less..... :o
:salute
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Keep posting Morf, I got your back. ;)
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:rofl :rofl
Thx FLS!
I went to offline to check,I noticed that long ago I changed sides so I could shoot down Pyro and Hitech....... :devil Since they are friendlies I had to use friendly lock.
Oh well live and learn...... :rofl :rofl
:salute
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Bumping as well to help him find as well.
This is what I mean about turns that cost little E. You don't have to go into a full G turn all the time. Depending on the speeds, positioning, and closure rate of the two planes, you can pull a low G shallow turn to get your flightpath perpendicular to their. Of course, some situations call for high G turns such as if you don't see them until the last moment, so situational awareness (like in every other aspect of aerial combat) is VERY important. The sooner you see them coming, the sooner you can maneuver against them. The sooner you can maneuver against them, the more E you can save.
As trainers call it "pointing your wingtip at the your enemy" is a VERY useful thing to do to create high closure rates, sharp angles, overshoots, or avoiding head on shots.
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Btw, a kind of philosophical kind of way that I fight is: I fly very loose like water. Like water following how the terrain forms around it, I fly according to how the fight forms around me. I never go into any fight with 1 set plan and stick to just that. The absolute very second I get to icon range and see what kind of plane match up I have on my hands, I start planning out multiple scenarios in my head. What is the most immediate thing I want to do in this situation and match up? Do I want to pick up more speed? Do I want to gain more altitude? Should I fly a bit more passively and wait for my opponent to make a mistake? Or should I be aggressive and go right for the attack? What if I can not achieve the most immediate thing that I want to? What if I can not gain the altitude that I want? I need to have a back up plan for that very scenario. Ok, I am not going to get the altitude I want, so I'll do this instead! This can be pretty overwhelming at first, but after a while you'll start to recognize certain situations where you want to do specific things, and then do other specific thing if you can not achieve what you initially wanted, and so on and so forth.
If the water wants to go right, but the the terrain forces the water to go left, then the water has to flow with the terrain and go right. If I want to pull a certain maneuver, but it's going to get me killed, then I do not pulled that maneuver. Instead, I pull the move that the immediate situation calls for!
No fight has a set in stone way of fighting. Every single fight is different, and you have to react immediately to how the fight develops. Even if the fights are a same plane match up. Say a 109G2 vs a P-47D-40. Let's say both planes are co-alt and same speed. BOTH planes could pull a wide variety of different moves in the merge alone, and every single one of those moves has another set of different moves that both planes can pull. Those moves as well have another set of moves that both planes can pull. This is just 1 specific scenario as well. Let's say the 109G-2 is 50mph faster than the P47D40 on a Co-alt merge. The same principle applies. Both planes have a wide variety of different moves they can pull that are different from the previous scenario, and those moves lead to more moves that both planes can pull, and so on and so on. Let's say the 109G-2 is 100mph faster than the P47D40 on a co-alt merge. Yet again both planes have another wide variety of moves they can both pull that are yet again different from the previous two scenarios, and yet again those moves lead to an even more vast array of different moves. We've only been discussing speed differences too! We have to take into account altitude differences as well as speed differences. We also have to take into account the different strengths and weaknesses of both aircraft (which alone, can be quite A LOT!). The short story here is, I have NEVER.... NEVER!!!... been in two fights that have been the same in my 7+ years of playing this game. Even when the plane match up was exactly the same!
You might feel overwhelmed with all these decision makings at first, but eventually you will start to build a wealth of knowledge of things to do and not to do in specific scenarios. Ok, I have an A6M off my 9 o'clock and I'm in a P-51D. My speed is 275mph while he appears to be closing on me from slightly higher than me. I need to do this in order to win this fight, but if I can not achieve this then I need to to this or this, or maybe even this which will set me up for a better position as well.
I always imagined this was what the great sticks did, similar to something like Kasparov playing chess and seeing 20 moves ahead.
It is however, massively outside my mental capacity, the only way I can fight is dynamically one, or if I'm really on the ball, two moves ahead.