Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"

[Latrobe]

Some of you may remember how I always talk about creating angles to work with in a fight. "What are these angles he's talking about? I think Latrobe is just being silly!" Well I'm going to hopefully explain these angles and how they work to you right now! 

Here's the situation. I'm in my 109F4 and there is an enemy 109F4 diving down on me from my high 7-8 o'clock position.



If I continue on my current course and do nothing then the 109F will very obviously drop in onto my 6 and shoot me down.



If I try to turn away or dive away from the 109F then again he can easily drop down on my 6 with more speed and kill me.



Neither of those choices create any angles for me to work with and exposes my 6 o'clock and that's why they will get me killed very quickly. But what are these angles that I am talking about? Well if you have a plane behind you giving chase and you continue to fly straight then you will both be flying the same course. No angle is created and you are going to get no where. In a Co-E chase, if you have someone 600 yards off your 6 and you're both flying at roughly the same speed then if you continue to fly a straight course for 10 seconds then you'll be in a different part of the airspace but you will still have that enemy plane 600 yards off your 6. Nothing has changed and nothing will ever change as long as you fly the same straight path. Worst case scenario is your opponent has more speed than you in which case eventually he is going to catch you! Best case scenario is you have more speed than him and you will eventually get out of his gun range and into a position where you can reset the fight, but you are not always going to be the faster plane so learning how to work these angles is vitally important.

In this diagram both planes fly the same course. Their flightpaths are parallel to one another and the defending plane gets absolutely no where. The attacker is going to be in that same position no matter how long the defender flies this course.


What the defending plane wants to do is change his flightpath. He does not want their flightpaths to be parallel to one another. In this next diagram we have the defending plane flying a slightly different course than the attacker. At some point the defender and attacker flightpaths are going to cross over one another. See that area between their flightpaths? Looks kind of like an acute angle that we learned about in school! That's the angles I'm talking about! Those are the angles you want to create to work with. Creating these angles increases closure rate. The larger the angle, the higher the closure rate! It also gets you inside your opponents turn where he can't shoot you and that, along with higher closure rates, forces and overshoot!


Now in this last diagram we have the defender flying a flightpath perpendicular to the attacker's. The angle is now much bigger than it was before. A bigger angle means higher closure rates! Higher closure rates and bigger angles means easier overshoots! Trainers call this "pointing your wingtip at your enemy". Why? Because you are literally pointing your wingtip at your enemy! If he's off your wingtip, then he's not on your 6! If he's off your wingtip then you are creating angles. If you're creating angles then you are increasing the closure rate and setting up for the overshoot!


So how do I create these angles to work with in this situation? Well the 109F is diving on me from my high 7-8 o'clock, so I want to turn left and into him (Hey! Boelckes Rule 6!). This will start creating those angles that I want. Those angles will increase the closure rate and the closure rate will also become even higher thanks to the 109F diving and building up speed! My left hand turn will get me inside the 109's turn and he won't be able to get guns on me and overshoot.


That's exactly what I did and that's exactly what happened! Notice how our flightpaths cross perpendicular to one another? See the angle that I created and worked with? Just as I thought the 109 can not make the turn, can't get the shot, and he overshoots.


Now all I have to do is reverse my turn back into the 109 and I have gone from the defense to the offence



That's how I see angles in a fight. I hope I explained it well enough and it helps you in your flying. Now give it some practice and go kill those red planes! 

[Randy1]

First one super lecture on angles.

But,  what do you do if the attacker sees the overshoot coming and high yo-yos and or chops throttle.  This seems to be especially true when there is a  mismatch on climb rates like a 109 and P47.  Those k4s shoot up like a rocket.

[katanaso]

First one super lecture on angles.

But,  what do you do if the attacker sees the overshoot coming and high yo-yos and or chops throttle.  This seems to be especially true when there is a  mismatch on climb rates like a 109 and P47.  Those k4s shoot up like a rocket.

Not to answer for Latrobe, but the fight resets, and the attacker has to dive down again, starting the process again.  As the defender, when the attacker zooms, try to create some horizontal separation and slowly bleed away the attacker's E advantage.   

Hopefully the attacker will get frustrated and try too hard to get a shot on one of the next attacks, and will overshoot and need to become defensive.

[Latrobe]

When you're flying defensive you want to react to what you're opponent does. Watch his moves, what is he doing? What is his plan? In my situation from above I see a 109 high above me getting into position to make an attack run at me. I do not make any big maneuvers because he has yet to make his attack run. He has the altitude advantage which allows him to dictate the fight. He chooses when the fight starts. In a situation like that your first goal is to neutralize the altitude advantage he has and I do that by going into a slow climb away from him to gain altitude and try to get up to him. I watch the 109 and wait for him to make a move. When I see him start diving on me for a shot THEN I make my move. In this case he dove on me from my high 7-8 oclock so I turn left and into him. If he sees what I'm planning and feels he won't make the shot and breaks off the attack, then he is no longer attacking me and I do not need to maneuver anymore. I level off and continue a slow climb to neutralize the altitude advantage. I keep an eye on the 109, watch what he does, what he's planning, and when he starts another attack run THEN I make my move.

Fighting against someone who has the altitude advantage the first thing you must do is take that advantage away from him by either slowly climbing up to him and dodging his attacks, or waiting for him to make a mistake and come down to you.

When you're opponent has the altitude advantage you are purely defensive. You have to wait for your opponent to make the first move and then react to it. If he breaks off his attack in response to you foiling his attack run then break off your defensive move. There's no need to be pulling a defensive turn if no one is currently making an attack run on you.

[Sunka]

Nice wright up Latrobe.

 

[danny76]

Excellent as always Latrobe

I would like to say, that of the very few outstanding sticks in this game, it's refreshing that you choose to assist other less gifted players, rather than just stooging around racking up a massive score. Commendable

[JimmyD3]

Excellent!!! Even I understood it.   Now putting it into practice is something else, but "practice makes perfect" as the saying goes. Very well done Latrobe.

[Randy1]

Katanso, you mark two weakness I have.  I am weak on mentally resetting my plan after the first merge.  Second, on offense, I push too hard for the kill instead of waiting for the defender to make a mistake so it ends up me making the mistake.

Latrobe,  I have seen you work the overshoot to perfection.  Maybe I am making my defensive move too soon telegraphing my plan to the attacker.  Is there a general distance from the high attacker after he makes his dive that you make your move? 

BTW, my K/D is the best ever since I started following your lectures and dogfight reviews. 

Deep in my psyche, where I hide my ill wishes, I hope none of the reds follows your articles.

[Latrobe]

The distance at which I make my move depends on the plane matchup and speeds of both our planes. For example if I'm in my 109 and the attacker is a high P51. Let's say the P51 is coming down FAST at around 450mph, and I am also very fast at about 400mph. My 109 is very sluggish at these speeds while a P51 can maneuver with ease all the way up to about 500mph (maybe even 550). Because I am so fast and it will take a little while to roll my plane and maneuver to create the angles I want so I will start to make my move at around 2K away.

Now let's say the P51 is coming down at 450mph but I am at 250mph. My 109 can maneuver quite easily at this speed so I will wait until the P51 gets to about 1.2K (just before the icon changes to 1000) away before I start making my move. This way I use up as little speed as I can in my move and my sudden maneuver at such a high closure rate will give the P51 very little to no time to react.

[Skyyr]

Not to answer for Latrobe, but the fight resets

No, it doesn't; that is, not if done correctly (which is up to the attacking pilot - the defending pilot has no say or influence over this).

The guy who went into a break turn has just bled his energy state down. A proper follow-through is a high yoyo if the speed differential is great (roughly ~80kts or so). If it's less, then the attacker should perform a rollaway. Either way, the attacker will end up behind the defender at a high 5-7 position when done correctly. The defender has to either dive or perform another break turn, burning even more of their energy state. You can wash, rinse, and repeat this all the way to the deck, until the defender has nowhere to go and is entirely out of energy.

Break turns are great for using an opponent's energy advantage against themselves when you cannot equalize your combat state to match your opponent, but they're very easy to counter and should not be used as a primary maneuver to gain an advantage.

[BnZs]

If it's less, then the attacker should perform a rollaway.

Lag roll?

[Skyyr]

Lag roll?

Yes - same maneuver.

[Randy1]

From your reply Latrobe I can see I need to be a better E estimator than I am.   Maybe then I could recognize when to make my turn or someone who is working the throttle very well to counter my angle change.  Man, this dogfighting stuff can get complicated.

[Latrobe]

Judging E is definitely one of the more difficult things to master, especially if your opponent is working his throttle. A number of times I'd see someone diving in on me from high and I'd do my usual break turn to use his speed against him. Then I'm thinking "Ok, why hasn't he overshot yet? He should have way more speed than that!" It's at the moment that I suddenly realize he's probably chopped his throttle and now I must tighten my turn or do something else immediately before he shoots me.

[Randy1]

Judging E is definitely one of the more difficult things to master, especially if your opponent is working his throttle. A number of times I'd see someone diving in on me from high and I'd do my usual break turn to use his speed against him. Then I'm thinking "Ok, why hasn't he overshot yet? He should have way more speed than that!" It's at the moment that I suddenly realize he's probably chopped his throttle and now I must tighten my turn or do something else immediately before he shoots me.

Next chance I will go to the DA and work on E judging and my turn timing.  Just staying at the take alt will get me low on most there.  Darn good practice.

Delirum is one of the best in throttle management.  Sometimes I feel like his 38 is a kite over my shoulder, and I am running all over the place pulling the kite-string.

Thanks for the help.