Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: BnZs on March 31, 2014, 08:30:14 AM
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.50s seem like a funny sort of gun package that'll ping some poor devil to death out to 800 but will let you down in snapshots in the knife-fight when it's really important. Twice yesterday in the Pony I had D9s fly through my fire at close range multiple times during hard fights.
So I'm thinking of pulling the convergence in from 275 yards to 200, maybe closer. Think it'll help?
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Take a look at Batfinks sig :aok
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So your convergence is 275 and you're trying to hit guys from 800 out? No wonder you have problems. Pick a convergence, shoot at that convergence and you'll have more success.
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So your convergence is 275 and you're trying to hit guys from 800 out? No wonder you have problems. Pick a convergence, shoot at that convergence and you'll have more success.
*facepalm* Thank you for replying without actually reading the post.
No. My convergence is 275 and I SUCCEED at pinging extending planes to death as far as 800. But aircraft are flying through my fire at close range and surviving in close range knife fights. So I'm thinking of 200. I'm just wondering if that is beyond the point of diminishing returns.
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*facepalm* Thank you for replying without actually reading the post.
No. My convergence is 275 and I SUCCEED at pinging extending planes to death as far as 800. But aircraft are flying through my fire at close range and surviving in close range knife fights. So I'm thinking of 200. I'm just wondering if that is beyond the point of diminishing returns.
But still you shoot, in both cases, out of range considering your convergence. If you shoot at cons 800 with your 275 convergence you don't use their potential. Same in a knife fight when the bandit is 150 yds in front, your convergence is still way off.
Where do you WANT to shoot at a bandit?
Prefer white knuckle knife fights? Prefer to keep your E up and hit in BnZ style?
Put your convergence accordingly. That's exactly what Batfinks ( mechanic ) sig states.
You might considering reading an answer before thrashing away at anyone trying to help ! :old:
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.50s seem like a funny sort of gun package that'll ping some poor devil to death out to 800 but will let you down in snapshots in the knife-fight when it's really important. Twice yesterday in the Pony I had D9s fly through my fire at close range multiple times during hard fights.
So I'm thinking of pulling the convergence in from 275 yards to 200, maybe closer. Think it'll help?
I've tried it.
My experience is that instant leathality with .50s in four or six gun packages is difficult at best. With four gun package .50s I'm inclined to say nearly impossible short of a cockpit shot (I'm sure more than a few P38 pilots will take exception to this statement...). Eight gun packaged P47s are another matter entirely, of course, but even they are not assured of a quick kill or even crippling damage from a snapshot.
FYI - I find dual 30mm give off a soft, warm glow when they hit and make just about anything go boom. I like that. When I manage to hit what I'm aiming at, that is. :uhoh
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The shorter you bring it in, the more extreme the 'X' becomes once you're shooting past convergence. The way I tend to look at it is whatever my convergence is set to, my reasonable range is about double that. If you were to draw the bullets as a straight line, and your convergence is 300, your bullets would be the same width as they are at 0 out at 600, still a reasonable concentration of fire to put both streams on one plane or one bomber wing. Now obviously that's not exactly true, because of dispersion, at 600 the rounds spread quite a bit. I still find I can do damage to a non-maneuvering opponent at that range.
If you start bringing it in closer, say to 200, now your bullets are the same width they are at 0 at 400 yards, and you're only going to be able to put part of the fire from one bank of guns on the guy at 600. The X is too fat, and it moves the second bank of guns' fire off too far to the side.
Now, looking at ranges closer to either side of convergence, with my convergence at 300 I generally find hitting at about 200-400 gives me an excellent volume of fire on the part I'm aiming at, little different from hitting him right at 300. That gives me basically a 200 yard band where my damage is excellent. If I move my convergence in to 200, my bullets are the same width at around 275 and 125, which means I've only got about 150 yards putting the same volume of fire in the same area.
TL;DR: If you shorten it up too much, IMO it shortens up the range where you can get acceptable volume of fire on a plane, and shortens the range you can ping for damage, not just to make noise.
I like the versatility 300 gives me, even though I do most of my shooting inside 300. I don't think the gain of shortening it up outweighs the loss in versatility.
Wiley.
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Prefer white knuckle knife fights? Prefer to keep your E up and hit in BnZ style?
The answer to this question is "Yes".
But I rarely shoot outside of D400 in any case.
And failing to get a kill on the snap in a knife-fight when you have to knife-fight is often fatal.
So I'm pretty much convinced I need to pull them in, but I have qualms, this does go against the standard advice you hear about .50s...
I did my first 262 sortie in ages this weekend and needing only one ping at very close range seemed easy compared to how gunnery often is in the Pony.
I made a passing statement about .50s having the ability to kill poor saps out to 800 but often failing to do what it needs to do in fights in close, intended as a bit of irony. It was just a lead in to my question about whether or not setting it to 200 will be more helpful than harmful, not something that should be misread to derail the whole thread. :bhead
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FYI - I find dual 30mm give off a soft, warm glow when they hit and make just about anything go boom. I like that. When I manage to hit what I'm aiming at, that is. :uhoh
Had a mooch about in a Zerstorer last week, I can attest to the twin 30mm's, but it was less of a soft warm glow, more of a rending flash and instant dismemberment :joystick:
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I hope 200 works for you. I have experimented with setting all 8 guns at 200 and it certainly lethal, but found in all but a few of my engagements, the distance was a a bit more. It's probably just the way I fly (not that good) and the AC I fly.
Overall, I want a convergence that gives me a lethal shot within 400 yards and it seems 250 yards works best FOR ME.
Good luck to you with finding the sweet spot.
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Had a mooch about in a Zerstorer last week, I can attest to the twin 30mm's, but it was less of a soft warm glow, more of a rending flash and instant dismemberment :joystick:
True.
I should have clarified that the "warm glow" is felt internally as you watch the "rending flash and instant dismemberment" of your victim's plane. :D
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True.
I should have clarified that the "warm glow" is felt internally as you watch the "rending flash and instant dismemberment" of your victim's plane. :D
Oh Yeah. Felt that too :D
Especially when I saw the F4U, completely oblivious to my prescence, coming to a shuddering stall 150 ft off my nose :banana:
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With four gun package .50s I'm inclined to say nearly impossible short of a cockpit shot (I'm sure more than a few P38 pilots will take exception to this statement...).
Sure we will take exception to your statement because it's incorrect. The reason why some have troubles doing any damage with the lighter .50 caliber gun packages is because they are not hitting at the convergence point, which will mitigate a lot of damage since there is no concentrated fire at a single point. We P-38 drivers are lucky in that we don't have those convergence issues and the full fury of the .50s can be unleashed to devastating effect.
ack-ack
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Sure we will take exception to your statement because it's incorrect. The reason why some have troubles doing any damage with the lighter .50 caliber gun packages is because they are not hitting at the convergence point, which will mitigate a lot of damage since there is no concentrated fire at a single point. We P-38 drivers are lucky in that we don't have those convergence issues and the full fury of the .50s can be unleashed to devastating effect.
ack-ack
Which is exactly why I stated you guys would. I should have stated more clearly why P38 drivers would take exception i.e. because of the nose mounting / concentration of fire.
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PM sent
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Which is exactly why I stated you guys would. I should have stated more clearly why P38 drivers would take exception i.e. because of the nose mounting / concentration of fire.
And those doggone Brewsters. Their 4 50s I guess are close enough together that they have quite a punch like the 38 without much convergence issues.
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And those doggone Brewsters. Their 4 50s I guess are close enough together that they have quite a punch like the 38 without much convergence issues.
Might be true...but I fly Brews or die to them so seldom I'm not a good judge. :)
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So I'm thinking of pulling the convergence in from 275 yards to 200, maybe closer. Think it'll help?
BnZ, hope this helps. I stagger mine at 25 yard intervals roughly 400, 375, 350. When I fly a Jug and choose 8 50's, I'll add a 425 or a 325.
I've done this since 2002. What I've discovered is if you get the first good bite out of a con, you can then disengage and get into a position where you can take the next good bite. You'll get those kills though you do not put them down.
Hope that helps.
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.50s seem like a funny sort of gun package that'll ping some poor devil to death out to 800 but will let you down in snapshots in the knife-fight when it's really important. Twice yesterday in the Pony I had D9s fly through my fire at close range multiple times during hard fights.
So I'm thinking of pulling the convergence in from 275 yards to 200, maybe closer. Think it'll help?
Based on the testing I did a few years ago, I came to the conclusion that 300 was about optimum for wing-mounted .50's, and you're handicapping yourself to some extent if you adjust them in closer or further than that.
I set mine to 275, with the idea that as I close through 300yds the icon counter shifts to D200, I solidify my aim and fire (hopefully right around 275yards).
You methods /results may vary, but I found 275 to give me the most bang-for-my-buck at targets that were as close as 175/200yrds, or out to around 400 yards. It's an effective setting for all ranges in that "zone", and still does fine for those occasional long shots out a bit further, or the occasional shots in close.
With literally years spent with that convergence I found myself "automatically" setting up fights so that I had shot opportunities in the 275yrd range; and I often only needed one shot opportunity to either kill my opponent or cripple him enough to leave him easy to "clean up" on.
Kind of the opposite of noting at what range I fired and then moving my convergence to match... I did a bunch of testing and found what I believe to be the "sweet spot" of wing-mounted convergences, and taught myself to place my opponent at that range to be shot.
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That was my reasoning for 275 as well...but I'm having repeated instances of fighters surviving multiple shots of the sort you get in close knife-fights, which thing often decides the fight. In this case it is the situation and opponent's maneuvering rather than my choice dictating what range I fire at.
Based on the testing I did a few years ago, I came to the conclusion that 300 was about optimum for wing-mounted .50's, and you're handicapping yourself to some extent if you adjust them in closer or further than that.
I set mine to 275, with the idea that as I close through 300yds the icon counter shifts to D200, I solidify my aim and fire (hopefully right around 275yards).
You methods /results may vary, but I found 275 to give me the most bang-for-my-buck at targets that were as close as 175/200yrds, or out to around 400 yards. It's an effective setting for all ranges in that "zone", and still does fine for those occasional long shots out a bit further, or the occasional shots in close.
With literally years spent with that convergence I found myself "automatically" setting up fights so that I had shot opportunities in the 275yrd range; and I often only needed one shot opportunity to either kill my opponent or cripple him enough to leave him easy to "clean up" on.
Kind of the opposite of noting at what range I fired and then moving my convergence to match... I did a bunch of testing and found what I believe to be the "sweet spot" of wing-mounted convergences, and taught myself to place my opponent at that range to be shot.
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Every time this topic is rehashed, in the face of credible game sources explaining the limitations of the AN\M2 50 cal, the search for the Holy Grail of convergence trumps on. MntMan has the single best explanation, along with his personal research, is backed up by the AAF in their fixed gunnery training from WW2. If you google for AAF Manual 200-1, the convergence charts will show you what happens to your deflection as you move from 1G up to 4G in turns or pulling up into a climb. At 1G@333yd your rounds drop about 3ft. By 4G it's 20ft.
If you believe Hitech's physics related to gunnery is even 80% correct, then read this PDF. I've included the first chapter from the 1944 AAF Fighter Gunnery Manual which explains the real limitations of the AN\M2 50 cal round. Along with the page referencing the AAF study of 701 combats where 186 panes were destroyed by 39% of the 701 pilots due to shooting inside of the AN\M2 50 cal's effective range.
These pages are from:
Fighter Gunner 1st Edition
Army Air Forces Instructors School (Fixed Gunnery)
Matagorda Peninsula, Foster Field, Texas
Download Link: http://www49.zippyshare.com/v/18433936/file.html
By 1944 the standard P51D armorers chart showed the guns set:
333, 350, 380
1200ft = 400yd