Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: RotBaron on April 03, 2014, 12:46:29 AM
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The A-20 Havoc, yes that favorite friend of yours that rarely seems to take enough damage to go down no matter how hard you hit it. He's always there after you've caused the town to flash for 30seconds to 2 minutes, he carries enough in the right hands to land six of your pretty tanks, and his rearm pad is always just a moment away.
Impervious to Wirbles as a skilled driver will drop their bombs at 2k and when harassed by ftrs, well their guns seem to be enough to get them the 15 seconds they need to get to their ack, if not 5 seconds.
262 is perked because it's superior in the game it plays: speed.
Tempest perked for same reason, and rockets for base vulchers.
163 perked because of its ability to get to a fight in a few minutes and has enough ammo for a novice to get a couple kills, if they don't wreck it first.
Arado, speed I guess, right?
Tiger II perked because it is superior at its game.
Tiger I & Glass Joe Panther, well 2nd and 3rd most superior at their game.
B29 perked - amount of ord and speed - I assume.
The plane most superior at killing gvs, not perked. Why is that?
What else are bomber perks spent on anyways.
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sorry Skuzzy thought i clicked on wishlist
please move it if it needs
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The A-20 is no better than many aircraft at killing GVs. The Tu-2S carries three times the bomb load, and has the same F3 views. The A-20 is a tactical bomber. It was used to great effect in North Africa, Sicily and Italy bombing German armor and providing close support. In the ETO it was employed more as a medium bomber. In the SWPA, it was again used as a tactical bomber.
It was a very versatile aircraft, considering it was a pre-war design. Slower than most fighters (339 mph), poor rate of roll, leisurely acceleration. Tends to lose control surfaces above 400 mph. Rather low g limits. Front cockpit armor not even modeled in the game (no bullet-proof glass or forward armor plate). It's missing the ventral gun position. It's no great shakes. Sure, it turns well for its size. It should, being no heavier than a loaded P-47N with much more wing area. It presents a big target for Wirbles and Ostwinds. Few drop bombs from 2k, with any hope to kill. The biggest bombs are just 500 pounders. Gotta be very accurate with those, unlike the 2,200 lb bombs on the Tu-2S. I typically drop from 600 yards.
There's no need to perk the A-20. None whatsoever.
Here's why you're whining...
You were running tanks and got your :ahand by an A-20. :furious :mad:
You upped a Wirble and guess what? :ahand again.... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :furious
You grab a Dora from the nearest field and head over to give it to those perk worthy Havocs. You arrive at 15,000 feet and dive in after the first A-20 you see. Except, you're diving at 500 mph and the A-20 easily evades your feeble attack. Naturally, you zoom back up into the heavens. Meanwhile, the A-20 zips over to the airfield, to get a little cover from the ack. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :furious
You're really unhappy now. How dare that pesky A-20 use the base ack to prevent you from booming and zooming them to you heart's content! Now, you have to risk getting pinged by the ack to get a shot at the Havoc. Worse, he baits you, by flying a short distance from the field, to suck you in, only to deliberately drag you into the ack. PING! there goes your radiator.... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :furious
Thoroughly peed off now, you dive into the ack, determined to kill that A-20, no matter what. Nothing to lose now, right? Except, some guy in a manned ack or Wirble blows your Dora out of the sky, or worse yet, the ack does get ya and the A-20 gets the proxy kill....... :mad: :cry :mad: :cry :mad: :cry :mad: :cry :mad: :cry :mad: :cry :mad: :cry :mad: :cry :mad: :furious
Meanwhile, the Wirble/ack guy and/or A-20 driver are :cheers: :rock
So, you pollute the text buffer with your outrage :furious :furious and come here to demand the A-20 be perked...
There's a bright side for you... Had it been my A-20, I would not have used the ack. I would have met your attack and I'd have :ahand
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Nope you are quite wrong, and haven't had very many A-20s bomb me lately. There was a situation where A-20's were keeping a good gv fight from happening, players from both sides wished they stay out, they of course would not.
Show me where I whined.
I made a, say it with me, ex-trap-pol-ation, extrapolation, an extrapolation from what seems as a foundation to the perk system being based off of performance.
Didn't know you joined the donkey's club on here of harassing and gangtarding everything people say because you feel it is a whine.
Do you gv in this game? I have never seen you in a gv, so how do you have such a great understanding?
Where the eF do you get off? "I pollute the text buffer" with outrage, show me once anywhere where I have done that.
I don't fly the Dora, look at my stats before you open your huge pie hole full of non-sense. Oh wait that's your MO these days forgot.
Congrats you have become full tool tard, there's a good reason Bob Newhart said assume, ass-out-of-urself.
Taking ftrs to task in F3 mode, ooooooh that's tough, tuff guy.
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lol says the A-20 guy, don't make me have to pay any perks to bomb**** players, I like being a total donkey, ruining what other ppl think is fun and making them wish were in a different game.
Players like you have driven a few I can count to another game. :aok
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/players.php 1/3 of your kills panzers lol
Oh look he's actually got one sortie in a T34 and two in a Tiger II, wow. :rolleyes:
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A-20 are quite easy to kill - they can't operate without full friendlies air superiority. Similarly to IL-2, Ju-87 and others.
They are effective against GVs but that's it - almost any fighter can down them easily. When I see it around, there are a few things I need to care:
1. Not to hit the ground
2. Not to collide it
3. Not to forget that somebody else would try to catch me catching easy kill.
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Yes,add quad 20 mm and perk them please !!!!
Who the hell carrys bombs in them anyways,that is what lancs are for. :devil
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The plane most superior at killing gvs, not perked. Why is that?
What else are bomber perks spent on anyways.
It's not the plane. It's because many of the pilots who fly it have learned to get the most out of the plane.
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The A20 is a far better GV killer then the TU. Its far more maneuverable, rolls far better, response is much crisper, climbs about as good and is faster. Also its far better at killing other fighters. You cant really load the 1,000KG bombs on the TU for GVs cause they make the bomber climb and handle like a bath tub with wings. The best load out is the 500 KG load and I think thats 2 internal and 2 external.
Either way the TU handles like crap compared to the A-20. Using the bigger bombs you have to release higher as well or the back blast will kill you in a TU.
Neither should be perked. As soon as their perked tank gets bombed they come running in here. But I'd much rather use an A20 for GV killing, "I use neither however and prefer IL2 cannon".
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You cant really load the 1,000KG bombs on the TU for GVs
2x1000kg & 2x500kg is my favourite loadout for that role. Did such a bomb**** sortie just again last night and did not notice that you "can't really do it". A quick climb to altitude, one sector travel and then: Aquisition, identification and diving attacks. Four tanks dead.
The 1000kg bomb is actually the Tu's greatest asset in this role, greatly reducing the need for any "precision".
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Nope you are quite wrong, and haven't had very many A-20s bomb me lately. There was a situation where A-20's were keeping a good gv fight from happening, players from both sides wished they stay out, they of course would not.
Show me where I whined.
I made a, say it with me, ex-trap-pol-ation, extrapolation, an extrapolation from what seems as a foundation to the perk system being based off of performance.
Didn't know you joined the donkey's club on here of harassing and gangtarding everything people say because you feel it is a whine.
Do you gv in this game? I have never seen you in a gv, so how do you have such a great understanding?
Where the eF do you get off? "I pollute the text buffer" with outrage, show me once anywhere where I have done that.
I don't fly the Dora, look at my stats before you open your huge pie hole full of non-sense. Oh wait that's your MO these days forgot.
Congrats you have become full tool tard, there's a good reason Bob Newhart said assume, ass-out-of-urself.
Taking ftrs to task in F3 mode, ooooooh that's tough, tuff guy.
My goodness, you swallowed the reel too!
That said, you were whining... It's a common whine from the "GV'rs". Whining got the icon range cut from 6k to 1k, because the poor abused tankers were getting popped by aircraft (funny how running troops can be seen at 6k, isn't it?). We can't know that the enemy tankers are just looking for a fight. Moreover, if they don't find a fight, they always seem content to shoot up the town or base. Even hide and shoot aircraft that spawn. So, if I see a base flashing, I investigate. Not aircraft involved, I look for a tank or tanks. If I ignored the tank or tanks, do you think they'd just tower? Slim chance. Here's my philosophy.... You roll a tank to my base and I'm gonna kill it. If friendly tankers ask that I not kill the red tanks, I will gladly comply. I have chatted with guys whose tanks I killed. When told that they are just looking for a fight, I leave them to their fun. "Have at it, I'll bow out" as long as I see friendly tanks rolling out. If an enemy aircraft kills the VH, I'll roll another A-20 or fighter/bomber. I never go near tank town. That's just griefing.
Perhaps you don't fly the Dora often, but you do fly it some. I know first hand.
There was a pretty big fight a few weeks ago. I was flying a Ki-61, and had just finished off a Spit16. As I looked up, I saw a 190 boring in straight off my nose. I bunted over to avoid the HO.... Unsuccessfully. That was you. I remembered that, and picked the Dora for the fictitious story.
Do I run tanks? Sometimes. Not often. Mostly Wirbles. I find the GV game rather boring... I prefer to fly. Been doing that here since 2001. Pretty good at it too. There's quite a few folks that began plying with the beta (1999). You won't see "Widewing", since I changed my handle a couple of years ago.
In fairness to you, I should not have written, "here's why you're whining". I should have written, "here's why most whine". I suppose that made it personal to you... For that, I apologize.
Now, some have stated that any fighter can beat the A-20... Not true. Any late war fighter can, if the pilot is good enough. Most early war fighters will be in trouble, because the A-20 is faster down low, and can match or catch ANY Co-E fighter in a straight zoom climb. I've run down 109K-4s in a straight zoom climb. Those who fly the A-20 as a fighter know what it's capable of, and it's plenty capable for what is. I win far more 1v1 fights against fighters than I lose. That probably goes to the quality of the average player as much as anything. Nonetheless, run across Cobia or me and you will have your hands full, regardless of what you're flying.
All of that said, the A-20 doesn't need perking. It needs some respect, perhaps. If we get the four Hispano cannon option (about 200 built and all went to Russia), then it'll need a light perk. Maybe... Why maybe? It wouldn't be any more deadly than the Mosquito, would it?
Yes, A-20 drivers often use F3, because the A-20 is blind to the rear from the cockpit. Like any bomber, it's hard to sneak up on it from behind.
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Yes, A-20 drivers often use F3, because the A-20 is blind to the rear from the cockpit. Like any bomber, it's hard to sneak up on it from behind.
All F3 views should be removed from the game.
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All F3 views should be removed from the game.
Ah... No. If you don't understand why.....
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I think WW is in full "haaaaaaw, haaaaaw" mode, there, Rot. Probably best to quit now....
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Ah... No. If you don't understand why.....
F3 is overkill you might say but lets not hijack this thread.
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Since this airframe is still the old AH1 era & like all the others from that time frame seem a little tougher than most. When it is updated I doubt it will be the same aircraft as we have now.
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Since this airframe is still the old AH1 era & like all the others from that time frame seem a little tougher than most. When it is updated I doubt it will be the same aircraft as we have now.
I sure hope we get the G-1 when they do.... :rock
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Apparently logic isn't important as "it's my favorite" so I'm the one who gets to say, WW.
If it weren't the best at what it does it wouldn't be the first plane grabbed out of the hangar to bomb****. Period.
I'm glad the forums are used so heavily, by so many players, whom hardly play the game to tell those who play the game how it should be. Aren't you?
You guys are giving credence to an ultimate bomb**** and his take lmfao, it doesn't get any funnier.
Go look his stats up, most of what he does apparently is bomb****, in everything he flies.
Embracing change is hard, not all of you need to drag your knuckles anymore though.
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2x1000kg & 2x500kg is my favourite loadout for that role. Did such a bomb**** sortie just again last night and did not notice that you "can't really do it". A quick climb to altitude, one sector travel and then: Aquisition, identification and diving attacks. Four tanks dead.
The 1000kg bomb is actually the Tu's greatest asset in this role, greatly reducing the need for any "precision".
Ive never flown to another base to bomb GVs. I know the few times Ive tested them with GVs at a base of ours being attacked the 1,000 kg adversely affected performance, were over kill, and just might kill you if you drop them low enough. Theres no question they make a big bang and wipe out anything near them. Personally I always found a 1,000 lb class bomb to be the best. Im not sure if there even is a 6 500 kg loadout but that would be my pick.
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I'm glad the forums are used so heavily, by so many players, whom hardly play the game to tell those who play the game how it should be. Aren't you?
You guys are giving credence to an ultimate bomb**** and his take lmfao, it doesn't get any funnier.
And, out come the hammer and tongs... I don't give credence to either of you, but I AM enjoying this. For my own part, I know the A-20 can be a biz-ay-otch to bring down. I ho'ed one (he was a-ho in' on me) with a 410 the other week. There I was, cappin' away at him. He spiralled away trailing a heavy black plume, but, alas, no kill message. OTOH, I finished a mildly spindled one with a single tater once... smashed reeeeal purty.
BTW, who could possibly be dumb enough to HO a 410 from a Havoc? Well, at least one A-20 driver - though I seriously doubt that would be WW. I mean, how hard is it to acquire a 410's 6?
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gv's are targets in a flying game.
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Just fix the flight model, it is terribly wrong, they should not be able to turn with fighters.
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Just fix the flight model, it is terribly wrong, they should not be able to turn with fighters.
And you have data to support this? Care to share?
ack-ack
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BTW, who could possibly be dumb enough to HO a 410 from a Havoc? Well, at least one A-20 driver - though I seriously doubt that would be WW. I mean, how hard is it to acquire a 410's 6?
It's less than smart to do HOs in the A-20....It has no discernible armor in front. I had a P-47D-40 try to HO me the other day. He screwed up, and had rockets selected. So, a passel of rockets went wizzing by... I shot him down. Now, if they ever do the A-20G-1, with four cannon, I expect that more guys will be taking the HO....
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Apparently logic isn't important as "it's my favorite" so I'm the one who gets to say, WW.
If it weren't the best at what it does it wouldn't be the first plane grabbed out of the hangar to bomb****. Period.
I'm glad the forums are used so heavily, by so many players, whom hardly play the game to tell those who play the game how it should be. Aren't you?
You guys are giving credence to an ultimate bomb**** and his take lmfao, it doesn't get any funnier.
Go look his stats up, most of what he does apparently is bomb****, in everything he flies.
Embracing change is hard, not all of you need to drag your knuckles anymore though.
Do yourself favor and quit trying to make it seem that killing tanks is all I do... I have fun doing that, but I love nothing more than a good dogfight. Meet me in the DA or TA sometime..... I'll make you cry. The TA is better. I can shoot lots of holes in you and I don't have to wait for you to re-plane. Best is a "cage match". That will get your adrenalin flowing.
Moreover, I spent 5 years as a trainer, mostly teaching ACM. Been here a very long time, and more than know my way around. Ask the oldtimers.
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What is it with the 'It's remotely effective, perk it!' threads lately?
Wiley.
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I'm glad the forums are used so heavily, by so many players, whom hardly play the game to tell those who play the game how it should be. Aren't you?
Ironically, most of the players whom hardly play the game have more knowledge than the ones who currently play the game because they have invested many years into the game both playing and advancing it. Widewing is no exception.
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While I agree that the A20 is certainly tops in the "easy mode" department for dispatching gv's, it doesn't really deserve a perk. It is limited in multiple ways. The F3 mode really facilitates the easy mode. If the A20 didn't have that it would be a much different story. I actually wish HTC would change it to attack class exclusively, it isn't like we see it bombing from 12,000 ft. It is a direct support/direct attack aircraft without a doubt.
Here is why the A20 does not need a perk price:
First, take out ord bunkers = no A20. Any 4/.50 cal fighter can pull that duty off.
Second, it is a big target. Easy to hit. While in a gv just sit still get under a tree. If you're in a AA gun, sit still and WAIT until he is close enough to get solid hits. No more A20.
Third, it is slow and not the most agile especially when loaded with 8/500 lb bombs. Empty, sure it will surprise many fighters.
I'm more concerned by the tank busters armed with guns, the Mossi FB Mk VI, the 190F-8, and other gv's. The A20 is ultimately a 1 trick pony: bomb gv's. Like the Lgay7 and other such easy mode planes, I scoff at those who constantly use them and forget the challenge of using fewer bombs, more precision, and otherwise more challenging vessels. But alas....
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Excellent base defense platform and it should be tough. It's a bomber
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And you have data to support this? Care to share?
ack-ack
Exactly. And the first data needed is weight and wing area. Next the power. Let's see the wing loading and the power loading.
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DBest is a "cage match". That will get your adrenalin flowing.
I'm sure many never heard of a "cage match". It's a duel fought in the TA. Two players fly from a large airfield. The fight is confined to the boundaries of the field. Wander outside too far or too often and you forfeit. Planes take off from the same same runway in opposite directions. They pass each other, fly to the end of the runway and reverse for the merge. Guns are hot after the merge.
I started doing this to train players in low speed dogfighting. It's great fun.
Here's a film with Gixer and me. Gixer was the game's Yak specialist, especially the Yak-9T. Gixer always did very well in the MA, but had little experience stall-fighting in the Yak. He did very well, considering. It's a great tool for developing plane handling skills.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ltaxbkrai269bzk/GixerLast.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/ltaxbkrai269bzk/GixerLast.ahf)
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Exactly. And the first data needed is weight and wing area. Next the power. Let's see the wing loading and the power loading.
Easy one...
A-20G
465 square feet of wing area
18738 pounds with 25% fuel (about 22 minutes in the MA), no bombs.
Wing loading of 40.29 lb/sqft.
1,700 hp x 2
Power to weight ratio: 5.51 lb/hp
Compare that with a P-38L.
327.5 square feet of wing area
16,470 lb with 50% fuel, no under-wing stores
Wing loading of 50.29 lb/sqft
1,600 hp x 2
Power to weight ratio: 5.15 lb/hp
Compare to Fw 190A-5
197 square feet of wing area
8,364 lb with 50% fuel
Wing loading of 42.46 lb/sqft
1,539 hp
Power to weight ratio: 5.43 lb/hp
Compare C.205
181 square feet of wing area
7,157 lb with 50% fuel
Wing loading of 39.54 lb/sqft
1,475 hp
Power to weight ratio: 4.85 lb/hp
Thus, one can see that the A-20G is competitive with many fighters in terms of wing loading, and power loading. Add to that very effective flaps and you may begin to understand why the A-20 holds its own against many fighters. Those who believe (or believed) that the A-20 is over-modeled, are simply uninformed.
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At that condition given, the wing loading implies it will out turn, steady state and at cornering velocity ( not sure where the speed sweet spot is) all but the 205. It can also out bank 'em all with no alt loss. No wonder... But perk worthy? Nah.
Properly flown, she is no doubt a bee-atch, especially when you consider the record the 38j has established. I've taken the a-20 out a few times, myself. I almost always pull the wings off. The controls feel a bit light compared to my usuals. It's main drawback is probably just speed, yes?
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At that condition given, the wing loading implies it will out turn, steady state and at cornering velocity ( not sure where the speed sweet spot is) all but the 205. It can also out bank 'em all with no alt loss. No wonder... But perk worthy? Nah.
Properly flown, she is no doubt a bee-atch, especially when you consider the record the 38j has established. I've taken the a-20 out a few times, myself. I almost always pull the wings off. The controls feel a bit light compared to my usuals. It's main drawback is probably just speed, yes?
The biggest challenge to flying the A-20 is not exceeding 7g under any circumstances when light, and much less when heavy. Don't exceed 400 mph IAS or the rudder will come off first, followed by elevators and ailerons. It takes some seat time get the the feel for the structural limits.... Even so, you will still break one now and then.
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Easy one...
A-20G
465 square feet of wing area
18738 pounds with 25% fuel (about 22 minutes in the MA), no bombs.
Wing loading of 40.29 lb/sqft.
1,700 hp x 2
Power to weight ratio: 5.51 lb/hp
Compare that with a P-38L.
327.5 square feet of wing area
16,470 lb with 50% fuel, no under-wing stores
Wing loading of 50.29 lb/sqft
1,600 hp x 2
Power to weight ratio: 5.15 lb/hp
Compare to Fw 190A-5
197 square feet of wing area
8,364 lb with 50% fuel
Wing loading of 42.46 lb/sqft
1,539 hp
Power to weight ratio: 5.43 lb/hp
Compare C.205
181 square feet of wing area
7,157 lb with 50% fuel
Wing loading of 39.54 lb/sqft
1,475 hp
Power to weight ratio: 4.85 lb/hp
Thus, one can see that the A-20G is competitive with many fighters in terms of wing loading, and power loading. Add to that very effective flaps and you may begin to understand why the A-20 holds its own against many fighters. Those who believe (or believed) that the A-20 is over-modeled, are simply uninformed.
This must be why its now my new base defense platform. Nice job Widewing
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The biggest challenge to flying the A-20 is not exceeding 7g under any circumstances when light, and much less when heavy. Don't exceed 400 mph IAS or the rudder will come off first, followed by elevators and ailerons. It takes some seat time get the the feel for the structural limits.... Even so, you will still break one now and then.
above 3 k you can squeeze 430 or so before parts start to fly,but its a real fine edge to ride and you have to have things trimmed just right.
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Sure, go right ahead and perk the A-20. TU-2 is every bit as good at bombing tanks if not better with the size of the bombs you can strap to it. Perk the wirble while you're at it.
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Sure, let's just perk all the ammunition, and that way, when the nice man takes out his tank, he can drive around nicely. Why can't you boys just drive the pretty 'planes and drive the tanks nicely instead of always shooting at each other? That way, everybody can always drive what they want together without somebody, I don't know, "acking" you in the face or shoving an exploding piece of steel up your nose or ear or also in your face.
Why do you boys always have to be so mean to each other? MAybe instead, you could help HiTech build a beautiful palace, all made out of glitta. THere could be unicorns and rainbows.
Why, you could have a nice parade or something, and maybe there could be a pretty princess on a little pony and she could lead the parade.
THen, the OP wouldn't be so upset and you could all be friends. :rofl
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You guys are giving credence to an ultimate bomb**** and his take lmfao, it doesn't get any funnier.
Go look his stats up, most of what he does apparently is bomb****, in everything he flies.
Widewing is one of the nicest guys you'll meet within Aces High. What gives him credibility is the fact he is one of the most knowledgeable regarding historical aviation within the Aces High community and even beyond.
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So, let's consider the same metrics for the Beau...
TF MkX
Area: 503 ft^2
Empty Weight: (sorry, but this thing's max includes a torp) 15,592#
Max Power (didn't say if at SSL or Mil/WEP): 3200 hp
This is a WL empty of 31 psf and .2 hp/lb (5lb/hp, obviously).
This will be quite the turny and agile bird. Once again, though, the top speed will sort of mar things, in terms of uberness... I mean, it's only 320mph for this variant. Still, I find the idea of a heavily-armed, agile, long range heavy fighter to be VEEEEERY compelling. Vis will suck for the pilot, of course, but, otoh, consider having a gunner or observer (might as well have the sans aft .303 versions anyway for all the good they do) on FSO nights...
"So, Major Denton, tell us about your aircraft, the Grumman A-6 Intruuuder"... Only better... This thing will be a serious havoc-maker if a swarm of them were to, for example, blitz a base with their ords and them hang around for a de-ack and vulch gangbang party afterwards. They're picker bait out and about, but low and slow and in the mud..?
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Sure you can perk the A20G when it has more plane model options, gun pack options a updated enhanced graphic and flight model, oh and the MISSING .30 cal in the belly that's been missing "but accounted for weight and drag wise" for YEARS!!!.
:bhead
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Sure you can perk the A20G when it has more plane model options, gun pack options a updated enhanced graphic and flight model, oh and the MISSING .30 cal in the belly that's been missing "but accounted for weight and drag wise" for YEARS!!!.
:bhead
Thirty cal was the Boston.
Fifty cal for the A-20G.
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Thus, one can see that the A-20G is competitive with many fighters in terms of wing loading, and power loading. Add to that very effective flaps and you may begin to understand why the A-20 holds its own against many fighters. Those who believe (or believed) that the A-20 is over-modeled, are simply uninformed.
I have always been curious why it is able to hold its own against fighters when an old training film from zeno's explicitly states, "acrobatics are forbidden." (At 10:35 or so in the film here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVqImhbKAqg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVqImhbKAqg).)
Its been my understanding they where fairly fragile air frames, is this inconsistent with our model, or just within our game, or am I just completely off base? Can not recall what the source for this opinion was, something I ran across a few years ago.
:salute
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I'm sure many never heard of a "cage match". It's a duel fought in the TA. Two players fly from a large airfield. The fight is confined to the boundaries of the field. Wander outside too far or too often and you forfeit. Planes take off from the same same runway in opposite directions. They pass each other, fly to the end of the runway and reverse for the merge. Guns are hot after the merge.
I started doing this to train players in low speed dogfighting. It's great fun.
Here's a film with Gixer and me. Gixer was the game's Yak specialist, especially the Yak-9T. Gixer always did very well in the MA, but had little experience stall-fighting in the Yak. He did very well, considering. It's a great tool for developing plane handling skills.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ltaxbkrai269bzk/GixerLast.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/ltaxbkrai269bzk/GixerLast.ahf)
Morfiend talked with me about this the last time I visited with him in the TA. Sounds like a lot of fun. Please PM me if you'd like to teach someone how to do it
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I have always been curious why it is able to hold its own against fighters when an old training film from zeno's explicitly states, "acrobatics are forbidden." (At 10:35 or so in the film here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVqImhbKAqg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVqImhbKAqg).)
Its been my understanding they where fairly fragile air frames, is this inconsistent with our model, or just within our game, or am I just completely off base? Can not recall what the source for this opinion was, something I ran across a few years ago.
:salute
It's a training film... Ultra-conservative, and they were meant for green pilots or pilots with no experience in the type portrayed. VNE speed for the P-51 in the manual and training films was well exceeded countless times. Training films for most fighters state that deliberate spins are forbidden. We spin them all the time.
The facts are that a pilot in combat will do anything required to win and/or survive. There are no air frame restrictions or WEP restrictions when one's life is on the line.
In service, pilots would fly the A-20 very aggressively. It was described as handling like a fighter. That said, in game, it is very easy to over-stress and break an A-20. We do aerobatics with it. We do that with many large aircraft. This isn't reality. We don't die if we pull off the wings or ailerons.
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Morfiend talked with me about this the last time I visited with him in the TA. Sounds like a lot of fun. Please PM me if you'd like to teach someone how to do it
Sure, anytime. It's a lot of fun.
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I'll take your A20 and raise you into a proper bomber :old:
A20s are weaksauce :old:
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The only oddity I find with the A20s is their extreme durability. I find them to be the most difficult plane in the game to bring down in term of the number of hits, more than B17s - and I fire at them with mosquitoes. It's not like they are invincible, but damn they are tough.
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Love my A20
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/A20flamingaZekemodcopy_zpsddf4f87d.png)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/DesertRatmod1copy.jpg)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/JDAMwannabeunmodified.jpg)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/KnockKnockmod2copy.jpg)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r207/wolfala/Aces%20High%20Artwork/A20turrentkaboomcopy.jpg)
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Widewing is one of the nicest guys you'll meet within Aces High. What gives him credibility is the fact he is one of the most knowledgeable regarding historical aviation within the Aces High community and even beyond.
That may be, but without concern or questioning my foundation for starting this thread he assumed it was about me getting my :ahand and proceeded I believe 4x to use that icon and connote that I was merely whining and merely frustrated about being bombed.
Nice :headscratch:
good grief Charlie Brown
The fact is I made an argument about the aircraft that are superior in their given roles in AH and that subsequently (it appears to me) they were then given a perk cost to fly them. I see the A-20 as the superior aircraft for attacking multiple uppd (could be one guy) gvs. Furthermore, in the presence of ftrs, it has F3 mode...
:salute
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All F3 views should be removed from the game.
It shouldn't be removed from the game but it should be taken out of the arenas and the DA during all flight. Used as a teaching tool in the TA only.
You have the 1,2,3,...etc positions to look around no reason you should fly around like wonder woman outside your plane.
Why should you be able to have a better view then your gunner would have?
:cheers:
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The only A-20 that might be perkable is one with four 20mm cannons, and even that is debatable.
It is absurd to request the A-20G as it exists in AH be perked.
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It shouldn't be removed from the game but it should be taken out of the arenas and the DA during all flight. Used as a teaching tool in the TA only.
You have the 1,2,3,...etc positions to look around no reason you should fly around like wonder woman outside your plane.
Why should you be able to have a better view then your gunner would have?
:cheers:
QFT. Generally after conversing with FF you are dumber than you were before you started but he is correct on this. Not to mention the target tracking you have for training lead gunnery.
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It shouldn't be removed from the game but it should be taken out of the arenas and the DA during all flight. Used as a teaching tool in the TA only.
You have the 1,2,3,...etc positions to look around no reason you should fly around like wonder woman outside your plane.
Why should you be able to have a better view then your gunner would have?
:cheers:
We don't fly A-20s straight and level, like other bombers.
Explain to me how jumping from cockpit to gun position is practical while in a maneuver fight... If I had a gunner/observer, that would be fine. I don't have a gunner or observer and I'm blind behind. If I'm in a fight with more than one enemy nearby, shouldn't I have the means to track them relative to my aircraft? You can see behind in a Stuka, a 110, a Mossie or 410. We don't shoot or bomb from F3. Both the A-20 and Tu-2 need F-3 to provide the eyes that would be there in the real world, to offset the lack of rear vision.
I fly the F6F-5 in base defense as well. I almost never lose one fighters or GVs. It has some rear vision, much better than the A-20. I kill just as many tanks, and completely embarrass enemies in fighters, foolish enough to attack. Should we perk the Hellcat too, because people use it to its best capability?
My suggestion is this... Rather than ask for any plane or tanks to be perked, adapt, improvise and overcome.
Ground attacks will get crushed without air support. Combined arms... Organize.
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We don't fly A-20s straight and level, like other bombers.
Explain to me how jumping from cockpit to gun position is practical while in a maneuver fight... If I had a gunner/observer, that would be fine. I don't have a gunner or observer and I'm blind behind. If I'm in a fight with more than one enemy nearby, shouldn't I have the means to track them relative to my aircraft? You can see behind in a Stuka, a 110, a Mossie or 410. We don't shoot or bomb from F3. Both the A-20 and Tu-2 need F-3 to provide the eyes that would be there in the real world, to offset the lack of rear vision.
I fly the F6F-5 in base defense as well. I almost never lose one fighters or GVs. It has some rear vision, much better than the A-20. I kill just as many tanks, and completely embarrass enemies in fighters, foolish enough to attack. Should we perk the Hellcat too, because people use it to its best capability?
My suggestion is this... Rather than ask for any plane or tanks to be perked, adapt, improvise and overcome.
Ground attacks will get crushed without air support. Combined arms... Organize.
I shoot from this platform using F3. Just sayin...walk those tracers right up to um.
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I shoot from this platform using F3. Just sayin...walk those tracers right up to um.
I turned off tracers. Not because I'm a great shot, 'cause I'm no better than average. I turn them off because I don't want to spook the other guy if I miss.... Also, it makes Wirbels and field acks very hard to detect. I usually have a very high K/D in Wirbels, which I attribute to having the tracers off. I rarely get bombed before I kill a bunch. I have always wondered why more don't turn off tracers... You dive in, thinking that the WW doesn't see you. Suddenly, you're in the tower without a clue as what just smacked you... :O
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I usually have a very high K/D in Wirbels, which I attribute to having the tracers off. I rarely get bombed before I kill a bunch. I have always wondered why more don't turn off tracers...
You actually can do that now? Once ago was a bug that disabled tracers on Ostie / WW on your own FE only, but everybody else could still see them. Since I never noticed any Wirbels shooting without tracers since then, I would have (wrongfully?) assumed it's still the case...
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I turned off tracers. Not because I'm a great shot, 'cause I'm no better than average. I turn them off because I don't want to spook the other guy if I miss.... Also, it makes Wirbels and field acks very hard to detect. I usually have a very high K/D in Wirbels, which I attribute to having the tracers off. I rarely get bombed before I kill a bunch. I have always wondered why more don't turn off tracers... You dive in, thinking that the WW doesn't see you. Suddenly, you're in the tower without a clue as what just smacked you... :O
I get smacked a lot that way. Must be you!
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You actually can do that now? Once ago was a bug that disabled tracers on Ostie / WW on your own FE only, but everybody else could still see them. Since I never noticed any Wirbels shooting without tracers since then, I would have (wrongfully?) assumed it's still the case...
The last three tours I'm 96 kills, 13 losses. Only 8 of those losses were to aircraft. I believe it's because they don't see tracers. I'm not that good or lucky.
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All F3 views should be removed from the game.
-1
On topic,
Anyone who ups a perk tank to an airfield with ords should be court marshalled.
Anyone who expects there to be no air response to a ground invasion, should be court marshalled.
:salute
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The last three tours I'm 96 kills, 13 losses. Only 8 of those losses were to aircraft. I believe it's because they don't see tracers. I'm not that good or lucky.
They do see your tracers. I just tested it with FLS in the TA. Tracers are only off on the shooter's FE, everybody else can still see them.
Seems you actually are that lucky ;)
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How much are the accounts that get indestructible A-20s? :D
Every time I get one within 2000 yards of enemy bullets it takes an oil hit. Usually 2, And 350 KIAS and over 2G seems to be the magic number for ailerons to rip off.
Perk the Spit XVI if you need to perk something. Biggest easy mode plane in the game.
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How much are the accounts that get indestructible A-20s? :D
Every time I get one within 2000 yards of enemy bullets it takes an oil hit. Usually 2, And 350 KIAS and over 2G seems to be the magic number for ailerons to rip off.
Perk the Spit XVI if you need to perk something. Biggest easy mode plane in the game.
Rudder and elevators are usually first to go,i cant remember ever ripping off ailerons first :headscratch:
Maybe my duct tape is stronger then yours :noid
.
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Rudder and elevators are usually first to go,i cant remember ever ripping off ailerons first :headscratch:
Maybe my duct tape is stronger then yours :noid
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Duct tape and gum :)
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Lighting middy up :D
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/spit2.png) (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/cobia38/media/spit2.png.html)
typical end to an A-20 fighter sweep
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/butthurt_zpsbf4f5cb5.jpg) (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/cobia38/media/butthurt_zpsbf4f5cb5.jpg.html)
The truth
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/tie20.jpg) (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/cobia38/media/tie20.jpg.html)
.
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Lighting middy up :D
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/spit2.png) (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/cobia38/media/spit2.png.html)
typical end to an A-20 fighter sweep
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/butthurt_zpsbf4f5cb5.jpg) (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/cobia38/media/butthurt_zpsbf4f5cb5.jpg.html)
The truth
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/tie20.jpg) (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/cobia38/media/tie20.jpg.html)
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LOLOLOLOL It's always amusing when they get whacked and cry so loudly.
Last tour, in less than 60 seconds, I shot down Chosen's La-7, Sawzaw's Dora and 2cmex's Tempest. I still had four bombs aboard. I then killed three tanks, and a P-51. Sawzaw was unhappy (which I figure is his normal state, other than immediately after a bowel movement). So, later as I'm trying to land, gear and flaps down, a Dora dives through the field ack. I evaded a few runs, but was literally out of gas when he finally nailed me. Fair enough, I suppose. Next night, I evaporated his 109K-4.... He then states that the A-20 is easy mode.... LOLOL If he wants to go to the TA or DA, I'll let him fly the easy mode bomber and we'll see how that works out for him.
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typical end to an A-20 fighter sweep
(http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/butthurt_zpsbf4f5cb5.jpg) (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/cobia38/media/butthurt_zpsbf4f5cb5.jpg.html)
Looks like cobia brought the HamrDown on someone's Dora.
ack-ack
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Looks like cobia brought the HamrDown on someone's Dora.
ack-ack
:rofl
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AKmeatthd it wasn't about perk tanks, it wasn't about the fact that ground invasion should be met with resistance,
it 'twas abouuuuut ahn nvfm :bhead
'spose most don't read anyway, just write whatever they feel their reaction should be based off the title, been quite obviously the case here anyhow
bye thread
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I must say since that Spit 14 and that one 190 version was unperked that overall I agree with the perk system. I wouldnt mess with it in any way.
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LOLOLOLOL It's always amusing when they get whacked and cry so loudly.
Last tour, in less than 60 seconds, I shot down Chosen's La-7, Sawzaw's Dora and 2cmex's Tempest. I still had four bombs aboard. I then killed three tanks, and a P-51. Sawzaw was unhappy (which I figure is his normal state, other than immediately after a bowel movement). So, later as I'm trying to land, gear and flaps down, a Dora dives through the field ack. I evaded a few runs, but was literally out of gas when he finally nailed me. Fair enough, I suppose. Next night, I evaporated his 109K-4.... He then states that the A-20 is easy mode.... LOLOL If he wants to go to the TA or DA, I'll let him fly the easy mode bomber and we'll see how that works out for him.
I splattered SawZaw weekend before last. He's a fun kill.
So, are you saying that he's in an altered state after taking a dump? Would you characterize this as "post-dump euphoria" or is it more like "post-dump depression"? I'm just thinking that there is a chance he might feel badly after letting go of something so treasured (and all). OTOH, he might be "real proud" too. perhaps parading friiends and family by the site of the atrocity and loudly taking credit... sort of a "look what I done, duhuhuhuh"... Not saying, of course, just asking...
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The only A-20 that might be perkable is one with four 20mm cannons, and even that is debatable.
It is absurd to request the A-20G as it exists in AH be perked.
The only way the A-20 should be perked is if we ever get the perked ordnance feature, then some of the ordnance packages should have a small perk price.
ack-ack
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I splattered SawZaw weekend before last. He's a fun kill.
So, are you saying that he's in an altered state after taking a dump? Would you characterize this as "post-dump euphoria" or is it more like "post-dump depression"? I'm just thinking that there is a chance he might feel badly after letting go of something so treasured (and all). OTOH, he might be "real proud" too. perhaps parading friiends and family by the site of the atrocity and loudly taking credit... sort of a "look what I done, duhuhuhuh"... Not saying, of course, just asking...
I'm saying he's cranky........ :uhoh
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I'm saying he's cranky........ :uhoh
Yeah, I understand. I just couldn't help but enjoy the idea of somebody who's bent most of the time, except for some short period immediately after they drop a pile.
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The A20 hitpoints are overmodeled IMO. its marginaly bigger than the bf110 but somehow falls in the bomber class hitpoints-wise
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Decent ish for a bomber in the fighter role but lets face its at a severe disadvantage against the rest of the planeset, its laughable guys wanting this perked.
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I have wondered it's ability to sustain damage too. Especially after flying the 410 the A20 feels like flying a plane with x3 durability.
After all the 410 has nearly the same weight in smaller space and yet it is significantly weaker especially in the wings even if it was made to be able to divebomb requiring a strong wing, whereas the A-20 was not a divebomber.
-C+
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-1
sounds like someone either got pwned or spends too much time in a GV.
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-1 Because it wouldn't matter and I don't care if I die at the hands of an A20. I was stupid to do whatever I did to get caught by it.
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I had a fun night flying the A-20 as a fighter....
Killed a low formation of Tu-2s... Rearmed and took off into a 30 plane NOE. Nikis and 110s, with lots of Lancs. I immediately turned around to land and grab a Wirbel, but got vulched.
At a different field, I killed a 110, and on my way to a V-base fight, was bounced by a C.205. I waited a split second too long to execute my patented "holy moly, where'd he go?" evasive, and had a flap shot off. The C.205 and I went vertical, and he ended up about 45 degrees of my right rear quarter. I pulled around in a right-hand lufberry. Three turns later, I was 45 degrees off his six, despite not having flaps. The C.205 pilot saw that he'd be dead if he stayed in the turning contest and broke out and extended about 2k, then reversed in. I hit him with a passing shot and the fight went vertical again. First up, and then down, where I pinged up his left wing as he passed. However, I was watching him and not the ground. I clipped a tree or the ground with a wing tip. potNpans lived to fight some more, grateful, no doubt at his good fortune. We exchanged salutes.
I took off again and spotted two aircraft inbound. A P-51 and an A-20. I shot down the A-20, and the Mustang ran. Heading to the V-base once more, I ran into a 109G-14. I beat him on the reverse, and smoked his motor and shot off some other parts. He dived away and ran toward a higher P-51 and Ki-84. The Mustang ignored me, the Ki-84 engaged. I zoomed up to him and forced him to break hard. We entered an out of plane lufberry. Up, then down. I had flaps out. Gradually, I gained, because the Ki-84's flaps would retract on the way down. Mine did not. Seeing this, the pilot went vertical and attempted to loop over the top. I cut inside the loop and shot him down. <S> to Beaver for the good fight.
The fight pretty much ended. I landed and went to another base under attack. Two P-51s were attempting to pork the base. I killed one, while the other was being pursued by a Ta 152. This P-51 reversed and headed to the base again, I cut across his turn and made a good 90 degree deflection shot. Smoked his engine and shot off his rudder. He turned again, and I finished him off. The Ta 152 driver had his chances, but missed. As I flew towards our base, an La-7 showed up. As is always the case (because I rarely fly the A-20 above 5k), it was above me and dived in. I evaded easily and rolled out behind the La-7. I took a shot at about 800 yards. I got some solid hits, and he ran off. A little later, the text buffer said that I got an assist .
I landed and called it a night. A fun night in the A-20.
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The A20 is really the best fighter in the game, save for dive speed, it could use the B17's ability to dive at 525 TAS in formation,shooting, though (maybe next release),and maybe 7g turning ability with bombs.
LW premier dogfighter mid 1944, the Fw190a8 must have speed and altitude on the 25% fueled A20, even with full bombload, to stand a chance, COe low alt your ded.
If this can relate to real life combat I can not tell, but its suspicious if you august 1944 at 3000 feet break the 200 plane Boston formation, to dogfight 80+ Fw190a8 and fly to target 80 kills richer and then drop bombload on target, unscathed by flak at target, unlike fighters.
Durability against the A8 is abysmal if you get it into your gunsight, yak 3 requires double amount of hits to bring it down.
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^^ :rofl :rofl ^^^
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The A20 is really the best fighter in the game, save for dive speed, it could use the B17's ability to dive at 525 TAS in formation,shooting, though (maybe next release),and maybe 7g turning ability with bombs.
LW premier dogfighter mid 1944, the Fw190a8 must have speed and altitude on the 25% fueled A20, even with full bombload, to stand a chance, COe low alt your ded.
If this can relate to real life combat I can not tell, but its suspicious if you august 1944 at 3000 feet break the 200 plane Boston formation, to dogfight 80+ Fw190a8 and fly to target 80 kills richer and then drop bombload on target, unscathed by flak at target, unlike fighters.
Durability against the A8 is abysmal if you get it into your gunsight, yak 3 requires double amount of hits to bring it down.
Yep, they gotta perk that way over-modeled A-20G...... Oh, and it can dive to 500 mph TAS above 15k (really), 450 at 8k. The ENY of the defective A8 should be somewhere between the P-40B and infinity..... Otherwise, no one would ever fly that junker...
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I have yet to see any evidence that the A-20G is anything other than an easy kill if you treat it with any respect at all. Going at it without respecting it and it may bite you, but if you treat it as a potential threat any fighter in the game will kill it with ease.
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I have yet to see any evidence that the A-20G is anything other than an easy kill if you treat it with any respect at all. Going at it without respecting it and it may bite you, but if you treat it as a potential threat any fighter in the game will kill it with ease.
I disagree that the A-20 is an easy kill. Especially for any fighter. It out-turns 1/3 of the plane set, and many of those are the more common fighters encountered. Many of the early war, highly maneuverable fighters are slower below 10k, and the A-20 can simply fly away if it needs to. It can't dive at high speed and pull g. That's its only major disadvantage. You learn to compensate for that.
Most fights for the A-20 are defensive at the outset. The A-20 can quickly reverse that. It's a big target, but durable enough to shrug off most snap shots.
It is very surprising in the vertical. No fighter holds E like it in a zoom climb. I get a large percentage of my air to air kills in vertical fights, where the other pilot figured he would go vertical without a big E advantage. Surprise when the bomber CLOSES range in the vertical.
It's an easy aircraft for inducing overshoots, often fatal for the other guy.
In the hands of the average MA pilot, the A-20 isn't a great threat. In the hands of those who have flown it as a fighter for many years, it's nothing less than dangerous. There's nothing in the plane set, including Me 262s that I haven't shot down. Part of this is a testament to the skill of the average MA pilot. Part of it is a testament to the capability of the A-20 to fight, and part is a testament to those who have learned to best use its attributes.
It certainly isn't perk worthy, but it isn't a helpless lump either.
A few interesting facts... It will outclimb a P-47D-25 and N when both carry 2k in bombs. When light, it will outclimb the P-40s, F4F-4 and P-39D.
At sea level it's 49 mph faster than an A6M2. It's 23 mph faster than an A6M3, A6M5 or Bf 109E-4. It's 21 mph faster than the Bf 110C. It's faster than the P-39D, all Hurricanes, Spit I, Spit V and Seafire. It's faster than the Ki-61, Ki-43 and the Wildcats and all P-40s.
No, the A-20 is not a great fighter. It is, however, good enough to earn respect and be feared.
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It seems that all one has to do is take the fight vertical prior to blowing your fighter's E advantage and that will determine the outcome most of the time. Once the fighter is on top of the A-20G it is just a matter of time. Yes, it can run from quite a few fighters, but depending on what the A-20G's goal was that could be effectively a loss as it is forced to withdraw from the area. Certainly I would not choose to turn with it in a Mossie.
Now in a cage match things can be very different and I am not versed at all in the effect that has on the ability of something heavy like a P-47 or Mossie to get on top of the A-20G.
What fighters do you find give you the most trouble in the A-20G? I am not nearly on your skill level, but my personal nemesis in the Mossie are Bf109K-4s.
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I disagree that the A-20 is an easy kill. Especially for any fighter. It out-turns 1/3 of the plane set, and many of those are the more common fighters encountered. Many of the early war, highly maneuverable fighters are slower below 10k, and the A-20 can simply fly away if it needs to. It can't dive at high speed and pull g. That's its only major disadvantage. You learn to compensate for that.
You forgot a major disadvantage - no 6 view.
...then again, it is probably flown from that F3 view that it should not have, so scratch that.
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What fighters do you find give you the most trouble in the A-20G? I am not nearly on your skill level, but my personal nemesis in the Mossie are Bf109K-4s.
my 2 cents
A well flown spit 8/9 gives me the most fits,followed by the spray n pray n1k1.
As for K4,they are one of the easier of the 09s to deal with,the F4 is the deadly one vs an A-20
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You forgot a major disadvantage - no 6 view.
It has plenty of 6-view IMO.
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for sure the K4 is an easy kill to the A20, its basically immune to 30mm
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for sure the K4 is an easy kill to the A20, its basically immune to 30mm
kinda hard to kill something unless you actually hit it
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for sure the K4 is an easy kill to the A20, its basically immune to 30mm
In all of 2013 the A-20 enjoyed a K/D of 0.42 against the K4 (2.40 from the 109's perspective)
That's quite a success rate for the K4 with only two 13mm guns to damage the A-20 :noid
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I had a A20 catch me off guard today in my 109g14. Its amazing how well A plane that big can climb, but really all you have to do as a fighter pilot to avoid one is WEP up and nose down, they simply can't keep up. They are a pest if they catch you with your pants down low and slow but so is anything that has guns.
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but really all you have to do as a fighter pilot to avoid one is WEP up and nose down, they simply can't keep up.
If you have to run from an A-20, you should try a different game.
ack-ack
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If you have to run from an A-20, you should try a different game.
ack-ack
Id rather run than get shot in a turn fight. I really don't see the issue with running and getting some distance between us before reengaging :headscratch:
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I suspect Ack of being "curmudgeonly" at this stage. I mean, the late-war Messer's got a big speed edge over the A-20. Why throw that away?
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With good gunners onboard, a turning dogfight with a A-20 ends with you being shot up by its gunners before you either lose or get angle on them.
Shooting at 4g is not a problem for good gunners in AH.
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With good gunners onboard, a turning dogfight with a A-20 ends with you being shot up by its gunners before you either lose or get angle on them.
Shooting at 4g is not a problem for good gunners in AH.
Gunner? We can have a gunner? ;)
Too bad the A-20s are missing the ventral gun. Maybe it will appear when it gets the graphic update.
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Shooting at 4g is not a problem for good gunners in AH.
come to think of it gunners are not affected by G forces like the pilot is in this game? :headscratch:
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Gunner? We can have a gunner?
That's how you get your F3 view!
- oldman
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With good gunners onboard, a turning dogfight with a A-20 ends with you being shot up by its gunners before you either lose or get angle on them.
Shooting at 4g is not a problem for good gunners in AH.
really? I always couldn't hit crap from maneuvering plane as gunner because of the herky jerky aspect. maybe I always rode with stick stirrers :)
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That's how you get your F3 view!
- oldman
Yeah, but that guy is just an observer, not a shooter.
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I suspect Ack of being "curmudgeonly" at this stage. I mean, the late-war Messer's got a big speed edge over the A-20. Why throw that away?
Because you shouldn't be turning with the A20 in a late war 109. Go vert, young man...go vert!
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Because you shouldn't be turning with the A20 in a late war 109. Go vert, young man...go vert!
Yeah, go vertical! Please!
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Yeah, go vertical! Please!
Against a late war 109? I would take that bet.
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Against a late war 109? I would take that bet.
As would I. A20s a difficult target in the right hands (I'd certainly put WW in that catagory)...but a K or G14 in the right hands using the vert will make it a difficult proposition to get the lasers aligned. :)
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Let's not confuse climbing ablilty with zooming ability. The 109s will absolutely crush an A-20 in a straight climb but it can't compete with that big honkin hunk of metal in a zoom. That's what gets people killed by A-20s.
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Let's not confuse climbing ablilty with zooming ability. The 109s will absolutely crush an A-20 in a straight climb but it can't compete with that big honkin hunk of metal in a zoom. That's what gets people killed by A-20s.
A good point, but I wasn't confusing the two. I am familiar with using the short term advantage of a zoom climb i.e. the 110G can zoom as well and I've caught plenty of 38s, K4s and Doras off guard using it. Under normal conditions most of those planes would eat the 110 alive in the vertical.
I made the "go vert" comment based on posts which imply a fighter was extending to get space away from the A20 before reengaging rather than trying to turn with it i.e.:
Id rather run than get shot in a turn fight. I really don't see the issue with running and getting some distance between us before reengaging :headscratch:
Based on the above I made a basic assumption that the fighter is at a higher E state and thus the zoom climb shouldn't be as much a factor, but it's still something to watch out for of course. Cobia's made me pay dearly a couple of times for underestimating his E state....I'm pretty sure WW would do the same in similar circumstances. :aok
*bah* A20s pilots. Perk the cheaters. ;) :lol
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Let's not confuse climbing ablilty with zooming ability. The 109s will absolutely crush an A-20 in a straight climb but it can't compete with that big honkin hunk of metal in a zoom. That's what gets people killed by A-20s.
Correct but, staying the vertical, the K4 will slow down a helluva lot faster than the A20 forcing the overshoot while the A20 eats about 15 taters.
I'll still take the bet.
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and it has 6x50cals in the nose, nothing under 1000 is safe, especially on top of a rope.
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Tempest rockets :headscratch:
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The A8 does have better dive-acceleration in this release than the A20, but can not turn or zoom with it even with bombs both at 250mph, climb and come back on-top of the A20 is the best choice.
If I where the A20 I would wish for better armour protection for the crew, all front guns 20mm's, and the same command view as the tanks have, and be able to turn with the whole wing of 3 planes in a Luft-berry circle like the 110s did against spits.
If I where in the A8 I would wish for be able to take the 13mm's out of the plane, equip it with Rm4 rockets, or 6*20mm, and be able to pull stick so i can follow a bomb-equipped A20 in a loop.
I would like to know what limitations the A20 had IRL, with and without bombs, and if inverted flight/loops where possible with bombs.
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Long ago I remember another A-20 as great fighter debate that happened. It devolved into the pro-A-20 guy or guys insisting that the A-20 would handily beat a Mossie in a fight. Eventually a fight was arranged between a noted A-20 fighter pilot and, IIRC, Batfink in the Mossie. The result was that the A-20 got one, brief long range gun solution that put a few holes in the Mossie but from that point on the Mossie's better power to weight ratio simply denied the A-20 any ability to go offensive and the A-20 was shot down in short order. Afterwords the A-20 player acknowledged that he had been wrong. He said that he had underestimated the power advantage that the Mossie had.
That was the old, pre-updated and improved Mossie.
If the Mossie can get on top of an A-20 and stay there then the Bf109K-4 ought to have no problem doing so.
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Definately back to the "plane not pilot" argument.
Batfink would be a struggle to beat in anything, I have a hard time against a well flown A20's in Spits :bhead
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Long ago I remember another A-20 as great fighter debate that happened. It devolved into the pro-A-20 guy or guys insisting that the A-20 would handily beat a Mossie in a fight. Eventually a fight was arranged between a noted A-20 fighter pilot and, IIRC, Batfink in the Mossie. The result was that the A-20 got one, brief long range gun solution that put a few holes in the Mossie but from that point on the Mossie's better power to weight ratio simply denied the A-20 any ability to go offensive and the A-20 was shot down in short order. Afterwords the A-20 player acknowledged that he had been wrong. He said that he had underestimated the power advantage that the Mossie had.
That was the old, pre-updated and improved Mossie.
If the Mossie can get on top of an A-20 and stay there then the Bf109K-4 ought to have no problem doing so.
Humble?
The A20 is dogmeat for pretty much anything in the fighter category, if you have minimum of discipline.
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Definately back to the "plane not pilot" argument.
Batfink would be a struggle to beat in anything, I have a hard time against a well flown A20's in Spits :bhead
Nah, this was one of the lauded A-20 "fighter" pilots. Maybe Cobia. I don't recall.
A-20s don't concern me at all because to me they are harmless, even Widewing or Cobia, simply because I respect them enough to render them harmless.
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Nah, this was one of the lauded A-20 "fighter" pilots. Maybe Cobia. I don't recall.
A-20s don't concern me at all because to me they are harmless, even Widewing or Cobia, simply because I respect them enough to render them harmless.
Nope,not me,we have never tangled karnak
.
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Long time no see moot /S\
I miss the 152 vs a-20 duals , lots of fun
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Nope,not me,we have never tangled karnak
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I tangled with you once, briefly. I know it was you as I later got an assist. I gave the center section of your A-20 a burst of Hispano from my Mossie, but there was no damage effect that I noticed. It was in a rather big melee and both of us were dealing with multiple threats, A-20s and Mossies both draw more than their fair share of attention.
But that isn't really what I was getting at. I was saying that I consider A-20 flyers of your caliber to be harmless to me because I respect the A-20's potential, due to players like you. Sure, you'll get me if you have a lot of smash on me, but from an equal standpoint or in my favor E wise, I don't think I have anything to worry about from you or Widewing.
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I gave the center section of your A-20 a burst of Hispano from my Mossie, but there was no damage effect that I noticed.
This is the A20 killer move. You go:
"HAHA! take that silly A20! belly full of hispanos!... now who's the next threat?... <tracers fly past your canopy> WTF?! the should-be-dead A20 shrugged off my volley and is now hot on my 6! <pull a stupid panic move and die>".
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Long time no see moot /S\
I miss the 152 vs a-20 duals , lots of fun
Yeah :)
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This is the A20 killer move. You go:
"HAHA! take that silly A20! belly full of hispanos!... now who's the next threat?... <tracers fly past your canopy> WTF?! the should-be-dead A20 shrugged off my volley and is now hot on my 6! <pull a stupid panic move and die>".
I hit him from above though....
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Love the A20, always did.. Spent more time in it than anything else..
I'll say it.. You could perk the A26 tho.. :lol
I'd come back to fly that! :banana:
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I prefer the Stuka :D :P
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So this night I went into MW, and the base with the red dots hovering around it had no fighters available because some weenie had bombed the fighter hangers.
So I thought, "Hey, what about that A20, the one you read about on the BBS?"
Kuhn was flying a red-guy Mossie, I took up an A20G, and we had a series of really most excellent fights.
I hadn't realized what good visibility the A20G has from the pilot's position, really not much worse than the P38 or some other planes.
But how do you get a gun sight installed? I tried to load the ReviD, no luck, just that circle on the canopy bar which was clearly not aligned with the guns.
- oldman (and note to others, the A20G will lose its ailerons in a steep dive, and the rudder won't be a good substitute)
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Move F1 position till the rear and front aiming pieces line up. F10 to save position (IIRC).
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Took up a Boston up tonight. XXJeager (not sure of spelling), was in a P-38 tangling with an La-7, Yak-9U and an FM-2.
The Yak was on his six, and I rolled the Boston in behind the Yak. I pinged him up with the four 30s, and he broke right. I turned inside him and hosed the Yak again. Propnut broke too hard, stalled and crashed. I next went after the FM-2, and we merged. I went by and went vertical. The FM-2 followed me up, spraying and praying at 1k. He stalled and I reversed over the top. I hosed the wallowing FM-2, knocking off an aileron and angled in behind. The La-7 made a run at me, but I went vertical again, and the La-7 pinged my left engine (oil leak), but collided with me. No damage to me. Dallas lost a wing or something else vital and crashed sooner after. I dropped in on the FM-2 again, a brief rolling scissors ensued, my hits went from nose to tail. The FM-2 tried a flat scissors. we went back and forth. I was able to maneuver slower, and the FM-2 popped out in front. A few bursts later and Royal's FM-2 exploded. Low on gas, I headed to our field. A 109K-4 was above and made a run. I evaded vertically, and shot off one of the 109's elevators when he challenged me in a vertical reverse. Then, my left engine quit, and I broke off to land. A friendly was pursuing the 109. I landed, and just as I stopped, the 109 tried to vulch. I towered, he missed. A few seconds later he was shot down.
With far less hitting power, the Boston requires saddling up to get a kill. It is, however, lighter and more agile than the A-20G.
In the above fight several factors applied...
1) Surprise. Aggressive flying by a Boston is not usually expected. Attacking often forces mistakes.
2) Disregarding the threat. Many dismiss the Boston due to the weak firepower of the four .303 nose guns.
3) Lack of knowledge. Most players have no idea how capable the Boston is in a low speed fight. Sometimes, when they realize the danger, panic ensues. Panic leads to errors and errors lead to dead.
Like any other aircraft, knowing its strengths and weaknesses is vital. Knowing that most enemies have no idea what the Boston can do is a significant advantage.
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418 Squadron RCAF was equipped with Boston Mk IIIs prior to getting Mosquito Mk VIs. They used them in the same role as they were an intruder squadron. O for Ottawa, one of our black Boston Mk III skins, is from 418 Squadron. 418 Squadron ended the war as the highest scoring Canadian squadron.
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I prefer the Stuka :D :P
I prefer a B-17 :)
(http://www.cleveshows.com/B17Midland07.jpg)
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When the A20G is redone, if HTC uses the gunsight info I submitted for the G series. You guys are going to be even more dangerous with your shooting ability. The G series being a ground strafer and limited to mast head and shallow glide bombing, was issued from Douglas with an N3 gunsight for the pilot.
The mounting had been earlier proven functional with the P70 series that didn't have an armored glass insert in front of the pilot. Since the sight head had to none tilting due to the reflector plate sitting between the windscreen and the armored glass insert to protect the pilot from ack fire. I suspect the reticle was the "Christmas Tree" to facilitate aim points for glide and masthead bomb approaches. Which would work fine for ground strafing.
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(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080313170857/starwars/images/0/03/Tiefighterfull.jpg)
I say perk the Tie-20.
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I prefer a B-17 :)
(http://www.cleveshows.com/B17Midland07.jpg)
best fighter ingame
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lol
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I prefer a B-17 :)
(http://www.cleveshows.com/B17Midland07.jpg)
How bout this one!?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/B17_kg200.jpg)
:D
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How bout this one!?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/57/B17_kg200.jpg)
:D
Dem Nazi's got a hold of the best plane ever! We're allll going tooo dieeee!!!