Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: muzik on April 08, 2014, 09:12:13 PM
-
Had a conversation a while back regarding use of combat trim, especially how it can create nose bounce at trigger time.
Some turn it on to correct for speed and off again until considerable speed change dictates the need. That's nothing that can't be practiced and used effectively with a little effort, but seems an improved combat trim would have a buffer of some sort to reduce or eliminate the need for this procedure.
With CT on, couldn't it have a delayed reaction in certain conditions? 15 seconds after going into a hard turn? Then back off again? It should come on at incremental times depending on condition changes, like a pilot would actually operate it. And most pilots trim an a/c after establishing an attitude, not at the same time as they maneuver into it.
Since the game culture is "not to model tedious, real-life tasks," this should be a perfect fit in the game.
-
Combat trim shouldn't cause nose bounce. If it's causing it for you, you should look at your controls and make sure they are calibrated correctly and you're stick scale is set up correctly.
ack-ack
-
The nose bounce most likely refers to the moment CT is turned on. Unlike manual trimming that moves the trims slowly, CT reacts very fast. If the player had some stick back pressure applied (for example) and the CT suddenly trims even more nose-up, it may even throw the plane into a snap stall. Therefore, never mess with the CT while pulling G's.
Muzik may be asking for a slower reaction of the CT in moving the trim tabs from their current location to the trimmed location. I can see various arguments for and against it. I do believe that the CT was intended for player who leave it "on" and all times and for that case, a fast trimming reaction is preferable.
-
Nothing upsets my already horrible aim more than the damned slats on LA's and 109's etc, they always seem to deploy a second before I take a shot :bhead
-
I didn't make the connection to nose bounce myself. Iko and I were talking about combat trim employment and he mentioned the nose bounce and that this was the reason for not flying with combat trim on all the time.
I have experienced that nose bounce. I don't believe it was my controls and in only happened in certain conditions. I can't say exactly what those conditions were because I realized in hindsight that it was a mild annoyance that I had ignored.
What I do remember clearly is the nose going up and down for a brief moment at times while I was trying to target another a/c.
I vaguely remember that this seemed to happen after pulling out of a hard turn into a straighter flight path. I would notice the nose going too far up, I would compensate, then it would go too far down. It resulted in at least a couple seconds of compensating.
My theory is that CT was is always in reaction to my inputs and so it's always slightly late in its own input.
-
My theory is that CT was is always in reaction to my inputs and so it's always slightly late in its own input.
CT only variable is the airspeed.
-
Ct does not react to inputs. it is simply speed x, sets trims to position y. As example at300 mph the trim will always be set to x%for a given plane
-
Ct does not react to inputs. it is simply speed x, sets trims to position y. As example at300 mph the trim will always be set to x%for a given plane
Then I don't have another explanation. Where could the bounce be coming from?
As I said, I can't say exactly what the conditions were. It has been a long time since I experienced it and my explanation above is a vague recollection.
I don't remember for sure that I had to compensate or if the bounce just proceeded on its own but I am pretty sure it was not my controls and my discussion with iko reinforced that I was not the only one to experience it. Some experienced players manipulate CT to avoid this bounce.
Could it be that CT adjustment does not keep pace with an abrupt change in speed and results in some kind of surge in a turn? Do stalling characteristics result in some surging in speeds?
I will see if I can find someone with a film.
-
Are you talking about the bounce you get when you are climbing or descending through the winds direction change zones?
-
Are you talking about the bounce you get when you are climbing or descending through the winds direction change zones?
No, it's most memorable for me when Im lining up on a target and it's interfering with my aim. Seems to happen coming out of hard turns in a turn fight (slower speeds). It doesn't happen coming out of single hard or high speed turns.
-
No, it's most memorable for me when Im lining up on a target and it's interfering with my aim. Seems to happen coming out of hard turns in a turn fight (slower speeds). It doesn't happen coming out of single hard or high speed turns.
When you have this bounce issue do you have flaps deployed? I know CT doesnt take flap position into account and it will usually dial in full up elevator. This can lead to you having to push on the stick to stay level and this could be part of the problem you are experiencing.
With nose bounce I find it falls into 3 areas,rudder causes a side to side bounce and elevator causes an up and down bounce,then the combination of the 2 causes an oscillation of the nose.
You can test for this offline,setup the planeammomulti to 10 so you have plenty on ammo and open the dot target command. As you shoot you will see a pattern develope,findout which axis is causing the issue,up/down would be elevator,side to side would be rudder,etc.
Once you know which axis is the problem,you will need to adjust the scaling,deadpan and dampening to dial out the bounce.
If you come into the TA some evening I might be able to asssist you with issolating the axis and some settings to try.
YMMV.
:salute
-
It happens when you have a nose-down trim and are decelerating, nose-up trim while accelerating, or you have neutral trim but are on the extreme ends of the airspeed spectrum.
Since you're already in flight, you already have some stick pressure. Hitting Combat Trim causes the trim to adjust rapidly. With stick pressure, it's enough to make you lawndart at ~500ft or so. Even without stick pressure, there is a noticeable change in attitude. At a low airspeed, it will activate the stall buzzer.
It's worse while maneuvering.
-
Hmmmmmmmmmm. back to the original request for a "more useful" manual versus combat trim option. What does trim set do and why haven't I been told to use it anywhere (or how to)?
I tested the function offline and it does seem to have some effect. I am just not sure what effect. Optimally, I would like this setting to work somewhat like Combat Trim does now, with the exception, that it is my customizable Combat Trim. For example, once I have dialed my preferred reaction to aileron, elevator and rudder controls, shouldn't the trim set button "zero" my directional inputs (x to y) as I had previously manually trimmed?
I will continue the experiment online and test my results for myself. Added insight to its function and use, would be greatly appreciated.
-
Trim set will hold your stick and rudder input, within limits, and let you center your controllers while maintaining the input.
-
So, the red line indicators on the plane would line up center while inputs would vary? Is that what happens? My understanding might be wrong :headscratch:
-
So, the red line indicators on the plane would line up center while inputs would vary? Is that what happens? My understanding might be wrong :headscratch:
The red trim tab indicators show the positions of the trim tabs.
When you move your game controller the cockpit joystick moves. When you hold your controller in place the cockpit joystick stays in place. The cockpit joystick is showing you the current controller input seen by AH. When you hold your controller in place, press Trim Set, and release your controller to center, the cockpit joystick remains in place and does not return to center. AH is still seeing the same controller input, not the return to center.
When you experiment with Trim Set, compare the cockpit joystick position with your game controller position and the effect should be clear.
-
When you have this bounce issue do you have flaps deployed?
Most likely. As I said, seems to happen coming out of hard turns/turn fights.
With nose bounce I find it falls into 3 areas,rudder causes a side to side bounce and elevator causes an up and down bounce,then the combination of the 2 causes an oscillation of the nose.
I don't recall any other directional bounce than up and down oscillation that last for a second or so. It's a very noticeable oscillation that makes you hold fire until it stops; it's not a matter of simply being out of coordination with the shot and it's not a persistent problem with every encounter. It's a semi-rare occurrence that in hind sight seems to happen under specific circumstances.
Once you know which axis is the problem,you will need to adjust the scaling,deadpan and dampening to dial out the bounce.
I don't believe I have any issues with scaling or deadpan. I generally tend to keep a generous buffer zone.
-
Most likely. As I said, seems to happen coming out of hard turns/turn fights.
I don't recall any other directional bounce than up and down oscillation that last for a second or so. It's a very noticeable oscillation that makes you hold fire until it stops; it's not a matter of simply being out of coordination with the shot and it's not a persistent problem with every encounter. It's a semi-rare occurrence that in hind sight seems to happen under specific circumstances.
I don't believe I have any issues with scaling or deadpan. I generally tend to keep a generous buffer zone.
Could you be more specific about "buffer zone"? You want to have as little deadband and damping as you can get away with.
When you turn and slow down Combat Trim trims you for the slower speed. When you stop turning you accelerate and this raises your nose as the aircraft tries to maintain the trim speed. You push the nose down to stay level at the same time that CT is trimming the nose down for the acceleration. Now you are descending and accelerating faster. You pull the nose up and hopefully CT has trimmed you close to your speed and you are now relatively stable. If you have damping your reaction to CT will be late in proportion and if you have deadband you will be moving your stick through a region where it isn't changing input while you try to correct for CT.
Deadband and damping are best used as required to keep the auto pilot on and alleviate spiking. Scaling is a personal preference but it's important to understand how trim affects scaling. You only get the finer control at trim speed when the stick is near center. That's why CT is a good idea if you scale. If you need to have some deadband you might be more stable shooting with CT off and a little nose down trim to avoid the slack between pushing and pulling the stick.
-
Most likely. As I said, seems to happen coming out of hard turns/turn fights.
I don't recall any other directional bounce than up and down oscillation that last for a second or so. It's a very noticeable oscillation that makes you hold fire until it stops; it's not a matter of simply being out of coordination with the shot and it's not a persistent problem with every encounter. It's a semi-rare occurrence that in hind sight seems to happen under specific circumstances.
I don't believe I have any issues with scaling or deadpan. I generally tend to keep a generous buffer zone.
The condition you are describing sounds like you are simply releasing the stick to fast, and have nothing to do with the current trim setting.
HiTech
-
The condition you are describing sounds like you are simply releasing the stick to fast, and have nothing to do with the current trim setting.
HiTech
Whenever I see "nose bounce" my first thought is that it's not a bug it's a feature of the dynamic flight model, you push the air and it pushes back. Since that happens all the time I think Muzik might have other issues but the reduced aerodynamic damping at lower speeds makes the bounce more apparent and could explain why it seemed a rare occurance.
-
The condition you are describing sounds like you are simply releasing the stick to fast, and have nothing to do with the current trim setting.
HiTech
That could be. I probably wouldn't pay much attention to how fast I nose over. Then is this an anomaly in the FM?
Nothing about that bounce indicated I was stalling, so as long as the flight surfaces still have lift it shouldn't it go where my controls pointed?
-
That could be. I probably wouldn't pay much attention to how fast I nose over. Then is this an anomaly in the FM?
Nothing about that bounce indicated I was stalling, so as long as the flight surfaces still have lift it shouldn't it go where my controls pointed?
Not immediately. You are dealing with rotational inertia.
-
Flaps out with CT on, I get nose bounce too. My solution has been to click CT off when I'm in a fight and trim the nose down. No more nose bounce.
-
If you are manual trim with lets say takeoff trim, pick up more speed then hit CT, it can be slow to respond.
It is very pronounced when there is a big difference in manual trim and the setting for say level flight. On NOEs I have slammed a couple of planes in having the plane in manual heavy down trim then switching to auto level flight a few feet above the good earth. The auto level is slow to respond to a mismatch in trim settings.
-
If you are manual trim with lets say takeoff trim, pick up more speed then hit CT, it can be slow to respond.
It is very pronounced when there is a big difference in manual trim and the setting for say level flight. On NOEs I have slammed a couple of planes in having the plane in manual heavy down trim then switching to auto level flight a few feet above the good earth. The auto level is slow to respond to a mismatch in trim settings.
To prevent that, trim manually to approximate neutral before hitting any of the auto trim commands.
ack-ack
-
Auto-angle is your friend.