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Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Delirium on April 25, 2014, 08:10:54 PM

Title: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Delirium on April 25, 2014, 08:10:54 PM
I'm going to have a P38 clinic on Wednesday April 30th, 2014 at 9:30pm EST in the Training Arena.

I'll cover items discussed in the first P38 clinic as well as some other aspects, including differential throttle control, auto versus manual trim, rolling scissors, and tactics against aircraft that have a marked advantage.

It will be advantageous to the participant to have sat in on the first clinic, but not required.
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: bortas1 on April 25, 2014, 10:36:16 PM
 :salute sweet I will try and be there  :cheers:
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Max on April 26, 2014, 06:59:15 AM
I suck in the 38 but will try to make it and absorb a pinch of wisdom.
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Lab Rat 3947 on April 26, 2014, 07:24:17 AM
Count me in  :old:

LtngRydr
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Nimrod45 on April 26, 2014, 09:53:34 AM
Man, I cant wait.  I will be there.   :salute
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Rogue9Volt on April 26, 2014, 10:26:10 AM
I'll try to be there too...  I keep getting shot down by P38's  :devil
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Triton28 on April 26, 2014, 10:35:36 AM
 :rock
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: helbent on April 26, 2014, 04:31:41 PM
9:30 wed morning del? sheesh

someone film the session please.
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: WWhiskey on April 26, 2014, 04:37:59 PM
I'm in!   
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: FLS on April 26, 2014, 05:05:27 PM
9:30 wed morning del? sheesh

someone film the session please.

That would be evening in NC.
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: morfiend on April 26, 2014, 05:56:21 PM
 Del,

  Glad to see you doing a clinic!  I wish I had some more time to advertise in the TA but I should be onhand to help as needed,if only to herd the cats! :devil


    Maybe a notice in the GD forum might be in order?



   :salute
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: amulford on April 27, 2014, 02:16:25 PM
9:30 wed morning del? sheesh

someone film the session please.

Not too quick on the uptake, huh?  the man said 9:30 PM EST.  as in 21:30 EST, or 02:30 ZULU.

Some smellers ain't that fart... :noid
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: morfiend on April 27, 2014, 05:47:26 PM
Not too quick on the uptake, huh?  the man said 9:30 PM EST.  as in 21:30 EST, or 02:30 ZULU.

Some smellers ain't that fart... :noid


  A wise man once said" I stink therefore I am!"





    :salute
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: wpeters on April 28, 2014, 12:17:02 PM
I'm going to have a P38 clinic on Wednesday April 30th, 2014 at 9:30pm EST in the Training Arena.

I'll cover items discussed in the first P38 clinic as well as some other aspects, including differential throttle control, auto versus manual trim, rolling scissors, and tactics against aircraft that have a marked advantage.

It will be advantageous to the participant to have sat in on the first clinic, but not required.

I am in .
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Warmongo on April 28, 2014, 02:39:22 PM
I'd like to be there too. Did anyone record the first one?
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: CeeEff on April 29, 2014, 01:46:58 AM
I'm there ....... I hope
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: wpeters on April 30, 2014, 02:53:31 PM
Yippee tonight. Can hardly wait
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: FA_Refugee on April 30, 2014, 03:22:05 PM
I will be there  :rock
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Randy1 on April 30, 2014, 03:39:13 PM
Vox channel?
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: BnZs on April 30, 2014, 04:43:32 PM
I will not be able to attend this. If one of the attendees will film it and post it somewhere, I would much appreciate it.
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Nimrod45 on April 30, 2014, 08:37:37 PM
I certainly hope someone is recording this because I got stuck stuck at work!!!!!  Crud!!! :bhead
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: deadstikmac on April 30, 2014, 11:00:18 PM
Again thank you for putting this on for us sir. :salute
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Randy1 on May 01, 2014, 06:38:25 AM
There was some confusion on the one-circle and two- circle fight.

Here is a good link.

http://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/t45/p-1276.pdf (http://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/t45/p-1276.pdf)

The link comes and goes.
Here is another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#BFM_concepts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#BFM_concepts)
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: FLS on May 01, 2014, 07:16:40 AM
A two circle fight is a nose to tail fight. It favors the aircraft with the better turn rate.
If a two circle fight has adjacent turn circles the aircraft may meet nose to nose.
Chasing somebody around a flat turn is a two circle fight. A rolling scissors is a two circle fight.

A one circle fight is a nose to nose fight. It favors the aircraft with the smaller turn radius.
A flat scissors is a one circle fight even though you never complete a circle.

Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Randy1 on May 01, 2014, 09:14:20 AM
The confusion comes when one thinks of two planes chasing each other nose to tail in a circle as one circle.  That is what threw people off.  The forum is filled with post about what plane out turns another in a circle so one thinks of a one circle flight in that context.

I posted the link for good graphics representing the one and two circle fights.
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: wpeters on May 01, 2014, 09:51:55 AM
Great Job Del. :salute
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Puma44 on May 01, 2014, 10:00:22 AM
There was some confusion on the one-circle and two- circle fight.

Here is a good link.

http://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/t45/p-1276.pdf (http://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/t45/p-1276.pdf)

The link comes and goes.
Here is another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#BFM_concepts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers#BFM_concepts)

That is a great reference for a broad spectrum of formation and tactical flying.
Here's another for reference.  https://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Puma44 on May 01, 2014, 01:36:29 PM
The confusion comes when one thinks of two planes chasing each other nose to tail in a circle as one circle.  That is what threw people off.  The forum is filled with post about what plane out turns another in a circle so one thinks of a one circle flight in that context.

I posted the link for good graphics representing the one and two circle fights.

Here are a couple graphics that may help.  :salute

(http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/puma44/e289731b28f0da84c52c59f6a1c07c34_zpsff78a724.jpg)

(http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac270/puma44/ff60c27c43378a4c842e15b8c469ce20_zps935826cc.jpg)
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: FLS on May 01, 2014, 03:36:45 PM
The confusion comes when one thinks of two planes chasing each other nose to tail in a circle as one circle.  That is what threw people off.  The forum is filled with post about what plane out turns another in a circle so one thinks of a one circle flight in that context.

I posted the link for good graphics representing the one and two circle fights.

What you want to keep in mind is that the point is to determine flow. Flow in this case means we either benefit from a smaller turn radius or we benefit from a higher turn rate. A change in flow might tell you to get your flaps out and reduce your radius or you might need to unload your turn and get your speed up to your best sustained turn. All you need to do to change flow is for one aircraft to reverse direction.

The first diagram shows one circle flow resulting in nose to nose merges. The second diagram shows the typical diagram for two circle flow with offset turn circles allowing a likely nose to nose merge. The third diagram shows two circle flow with a lateral offset merge resulting in the classic tail chase around the circle.

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d117/4rtp0a04t01ap4y4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/4rtp0a04t01ap4y/Flow.png)
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Warmongo on May 01, 2014, 04:39:56 PM
What you want to keep in mind is that the point is to determine flow. Flow in this case means we either benefit from a smaller turn radius or we benefit from a higher turn rate. A change in flow might tell you to get your flaps out and reduce your radius or you might need to unload your turn and get your speed up to your best sustained turn. All you need to change flow is for one aircraft to reverse direction.

The first diagram shows one circle flow resulting in nose to nose merges. The second diagram shows the typical diagram for two circle flow with offset turn circles allowing a likely nose to nose merge. The third diagram shows two circle flow with a lateral offset merge resulting in the classic tail chase around the circle.

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d117/4rtp0a04t01ap4y4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/4rtp0a04t01ap4y/Flow.png)

This stuff is not so intuitive.

This is so far the only explanation that makes sense to me.... :aok

And thank you Delirium and AH Trainers for putting up a great class... :salute
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: FLS on May 01, 2014, 05:03:35 PM
Glad I could help. I first read about flow in a USN manual that had the same illustration for one circle and two circle. That made it a little harder to understand.  :lol

The F-16 manual that Puma linked is full of good information applicable to WW2 air combat. It's also required if you have any version of Falcon.  :aok
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Puma44 on May 01, 2014, 05:23:47 PM
Glad I could help. I first read about flow in a USN manual that had the same illustration for one circle and two circle. That made it a little harder to understand.  :lol

The F-16 manual that Puma linked is full of good information applicable to WW2 air combat. It's also required if you have any version of Falcon.  :aok
Yep, the basics are the same.  All that needs to be done is erase the Lawn Darts and put WWII fighters in the appropriate positions. 
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Baloo on May 01, 2014, 07:00:05 PM
NOOO!!! I missed it!
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: bortas1 on May 03, 2014, 11:20:35 PM
 :salute I missed it too totally forgot. anyone film it by chance?
Title: Re: P38 Clinic in the Training Arena Wed 4/30/14
Post by: Baloo on May 10, 2014, 10:27:37 AM
But no really, no one recorded?  :headscratch: