Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: mbailey on April 27, 2014, 05:29:49 PM
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I know it's not a speed demon, but it retains E really well
It isn't an ord monster but 2x250 isn't bad
It doesn't have a huge cannon in the nose but the one it does have is a killer. Excellent ROF
It doesn't turn like a spit, but I'll fight them all day long and come out on top most of the time
IMHO it's one of the best fighters in the game and I never feel out matched against any nmy bird I come across
I've never made a post regarding ENY and a specific bird before but 35 for this monster seems a bit high. (Not that I'm complaining love getting 20+ perks most sorties ). Just curious what the thinking behind the ENY is :headscratch:
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very poor flaps
poor clim rate
very slow
enough reasons?
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I think while we're here we should bring up the 109F :)
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I know it's not a speed demon, but it retains E really well
It isn't an ord monster but 2x250 isn't bad
It doesn't have a huge cannon in the nose but the one it does have is a killer. Excellent ROF
It doesn't turn like a spit, but I'll fight them all day long and come out on top most of the time
IMHO it's one of the best fighters in the game and I never feel out matched against any nmy bird I come across
I've never made a post regarding ENY and a specific bird before but 35 for this monster seems a bit high. (Not that I'm complaining love getting 20+ perks most sorties ). Just curious what the thinking behind the ENY is :headscratch:
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lb23j4csum1qajasao1_500.gif)
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(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lb23j4csum1qajasao1_500.gif)
Point taken. :lol
very poor flaps
poor clim rate
very slow
enough reasons?
Flaps are just fine. With a little E ill Zoom up like a sparrow with a bottle rocket in its backside
Slow. Yep. But I'll T&B with spits all day long with a notch or two. And with that little bit of stored E she's just fine in the speed dept. (For fighting that is. Not a good choice for a runner. But running isn't an option
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Flaps are just fine. With a little E ill Zoom up like a sparrow with a bottle rocket in its backside
Slow. Yep. But I'll T&B with spits all day long with a notch or two. And with that little bit of stored E she's just fine in the speed dept. (For fighting that is. Not a good choice for a runner. But running isn't an option
I have to disagree with this. The turn rate is actually getting worse with the flaps being opened (sustained), also the turn radius still stays huge (scissors).
The fact is that you can fly this bird well, actually more of a sign of your skill and practice. I have tested them multiple times offline, the difference is that large, there is no other way of beating a spit. The 109F is much better in every aspect except guns and dive, still, with equal pilots, the spit9 should have no problems against the 109.
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the only reason you can "TnB with spits all day" is because most spit drivers you meet are very unfamiliar with ACM and are most often straight up noobs....
any real fighter worth his salt in any of the later spits will send you to the tower 10 out of 10 times....very quickly.
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Point taken. :lol
Flaps are just fine. With a little E ill Zoom up like a sparrow with a bottle rocket in its backside
Slow. Yep. But I'll T&B with spits all day long with a notch or two. And with that little bit of stored E she's just fine in the speed dept. (For fighting that is. Not a good choice for a runner. But running isn't an option
I have to differ. The flaps are horrendous. All drag, little lift. Turn radius doesn't tighten very much and turn rate takes a big hit. It wallows with full flaps out.
Compared to the F6F in terms of turn radius, it has a very tiny advantage clean. However, it is utterly outclassed by the Hellcat when both drop full flaps.
The only reason you are beating Spitfires is because you're a much better pilot than those you've encountered. All the Spit need do is take the fight vertical and you'd be toast.
All of that said, the Ki-61 is a lot of fun, as long as you note its limitations and fly it accordingly.
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I don't know. Maybe I just don't see it.
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I always had a soft spot for the Ki-61, I enjoy flying it low on the deck while airfields are being horded, at such a high ENY picking off any decent aircraft is rewarding, many would easily ignore it as a threat. Our Ki-61 is a late war variant, its 20mm's are Ho-5 and pretty good, few dings and an aircraft goes down.
However, everytime I get stuck in an FSO event or Snapshot with the Ki-61, I usually hate myself. Given its usual opponents a P-47, P-38, Corsair, Hellcat - I usually get toasted. Spitfire V's as well, the only decent opponent I could easily combat were P-40s or P-39s.
Then again I am not kermit, he could swing that Ki around like it was a brewster and still shoot you down.
If I were to rejoin Aces, I'd fly a Ki-61 for the Perks. If you boom and zoom with it, it can be a nasty little surprise, just don't get caught slow.
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Tongs told me the first rule of Ki 61 club is not to talk about Ki 61 club... ;)
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Tongs told me the first rule of Ki 61 club is not to talk about Ki 61 club... ;)
I expect a brutal tongue lashing from Tongs. I forgot the KI Club rules :uhoh
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I actually think you are a little bias here mbailey
If you put yourself in the other plane there are many short comings to the 61
Pretty much anything higher than you can catch you...
The only defense you have in this situation is to dive away...great for planes that shed parts as they will not pursue for too long but everything else will catch you...and if one that sheds parts is patient they too will catch you...I think the a6m2, Ki43, TBM, goon and brew are all it can get away from
once involved in a fight you are there till the end...there are no options once you start turning
They do turn great but many can out turn it, and many others can with flaps. If they can't out turn it they can just climb/run away from it.
The guns are pretty good but as far as 20's go not that flash.
The flaps are ok at best...but they can't stay out...it just can't really do much with them out...and once you are that slow....you have a lot of work to gain speed
It does have an easy stall characteristic which helps maintain a steady platform during stall fighting...but it can let go and dip a wing and although it is recoverable you will have lost significant speed and alt...which is hard to get back if being pressed.
In saying all this it is a very capable plane in the right hands but things have to be finished fast...
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Horrible graphics. That is why it is a 35 ENY plane. :aok
It is not a bad plane at all, really. Much in line with the C205. It is just too smurfy for me to fly. Not when the A6M3 is available. :D
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I believe Aineis said on vox the other day "best plane in the game." :headscratch: :rofl
I'm amazed at how much skill you guys possess that outfly, even outnumbered many times and land a handful. :salute
KI-61 roll rate (lack) is the most frustrating part for me.
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The 109F is much better in every aspect except guns and dive, still, with equal pilots, the spit9 should have no problems against the 109.
Well... At low and medium altitude the 109F is superior in every way except firepower. Up high the Spit IX is better. If we had a Merlin 66 LF IX you would be correct, but we have the early IX with the Merlin 61 (1941-43). We also have the 1.42 ATA 109F which is a 1942 aircraft, so they're pretty well matched up historically. A 1941 109F was limited to 1.3 ATA.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=2&p2=13&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=2&p2=13&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
And the 109F has twice the WEP duration.
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Well... At low and medium altitude the 109F is superior in every way except firepower. Up high the Spit IX is better. If we had a Merlin 66 LF IX you would be correct, but we have the early IX with the Merlin 61 (1941-43). We also have the 1.42 ATA 109F which is a 1942 aircraft, so they're pretty well matched up historically. A 1941 109F was limited to 1.3 ATA.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=2&p2=13&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=2&p2=13&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
And the 109F has twice the WEP duration.
I wouldnt consider a 4-5% advantage in level speed as an every way superiority.
There are some other factors, like instanteous turn rate (spit wins by far), E retention during turns (spit wins by far), sustained turn rate (spit wins by far), acceleraion (the spit wins), turn radius (the spit wins by a small margin), flap handling (the 109 has better flaps but it takes long to open/close them), post stall handling (the 109 is more steady but has a higher stall speed and isnt as "easy" as a spit), roll rate (about equal), snap-stall handling (the 109 clearly wins), torque effects (the 109 is just lovely, the spit feels almost neutral) etc etc
As much as i loved flying the 109F, jumping into any spit was just like cheating. Yup, i have never been that much of an expert to suffer from the spits weaknesses like some uber aces out there (cough, cough) :lol
Not saying that the 109 isnt lovely, just not super training wheel easy mode like a spit. Still the 190 rules all :P
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Thanks for your thoughts fellas...... :aok
Maybe my success in the bird is actually blinding me to its handicaps.... and if thats the case....well then im doing something right :lol
Just need to get over the fact it has no booms, and only 1 engine :D
I actually think you are a little bias here mbailey
If you put yourself in the other plane there are many short comings to the 61
Pretty much anything higher than you can catch you...
The only defense you have in this situation is to dive away...great for planes that shed parts as they will not pursue for too long but everything else will catch you...and if one that sheds parts is patient they too will catch you...I think the a6m2, Ki43, TBM, goon and brew are all it can get away from
once involved in a fight you are there till the end...there are no options once you start turning
They do turn great but many can out turn it, and many others can with flaps. If they can't out turn it they can just climb/run away from it.
The guns are pretty good but as far as 20's go not that flash.
The flaps are ok at best...but they can't stay out...it just can't really do much with them out...and once you are that slow....you have a lot of work to gain speed
It does have an easy stall characteristic which helps maintain a steady platform during stall fighting...but it can let go and dip a wing and although it is recoverable you will have lost significant speed and alt...which is hard to get back if being pressed.
In saying all this it is a very capable plane in the right hands but things have to be finished fast...
THis is great advice for anyone thinking of spending any time in this bird.....thanks Tongs!
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I think while we're here we should bring up the 109F :)
No. 109F is fine where its at. :devil
(shhhhhhh! Don't let the secret out!!)
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I wouldnt consider a 4-5% advantage in level speed as an every way superiority.
There are some other factors, like instanteous turn rate (spit wins by far), E retention during turns (spit wins by far), sustained turn rate (spit wins by far), acceleraion (the spit wins), turn radius (the spit wins by a small margin), flap handling (the 109 has better flaps but it takes long to open/close them), post stall handling (the 109 is more steady but has a higher stall speed and isnt as "easy" as a spit), roll rate (about equal), snap-stall handling (the 109 clearly wins), torque effects (the 109 is just lovely, the spit feels almost neutral) etc etc
As much as i loved flying the 109F, jumping into any spit was just like cheating. Yup, i have never been that much of an expert to suffer from the spits weaknesses like some uber aces out there (cough, cough) :lol
Not saying that the 109 isnt lovely, just not super training wheel easy mode like a spit. Still the 190 rules all :P
I'm afraid you're mistaken about a few things:
A 4-5% speed advantage is the same as the La-7 enjoys over the P-51D. It is significant enough to allow the faster aircraft the opportunity to escape at will while denying the slower aircraft the same. The 109F can force the Spitfire to fight in a disadvantaged position/E-state.
Instantaneous turn rate is the same for both aircraft over corner speed (approx. 250 mph) where both aircraft are limited by G-loading. Below corner speed there is a narrow speed range of about 50 mph where the Spit has a slight edge in turn rate and radius before the speed drops to where the 109F can deploy flaps. Once the 109 gets its flaps out is is a no contest win for the 109; The Spit doesn't really have flaps.
Sustained turn rate and radius:
109F-4, 25% Fuel
No Flaps: 593 ft / 20.4 dps
With flaps: 449 ft /20.8 dps
Spitfire IX, 25% fuel
No Flaps: 577 ft / 23 dps
Full Flaps: 460 ft / 20.3 dps
Acceleration is a metric that is directly linked to climb rate. At altitudes where the 109F has better climb than the Spit it will also accelerate better.
Turn radius, as previously shown goes to the 109F by a large margin once flaps are out. The 109F handily out turns the Spit in a stall-fight.
However, you are right that the Spit is easier to fly. Especially for noobs. The 109 needs more work with trim and flaps.
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^ And that's how a Ki-61 thread turns into yet another Luftwaffe thread.
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I'm afraid you're mistaken about a few things:
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Turn radius, as previously shown goes to the 109F by a large margin once flaps are out. The 109F handily out turns the Spit in a stall-fight.
However, you are right that the Spit is easier to fly. Especially for noobs. The 109 needs more work with trim and flaps.
The numbers you have listed show that the 109 has an about 2% advantage in turning, both in the dps and the radius. 2%, in the most ideal conditions. The spit consistantly knows nearly the same if not much better values (thats why its that easy and forgiving) while once the 109 is out from its comfort zone, it fails against the spit.
It is anything but "handily out turns the spit", at least in my book.
Also, the 109 is lighter, has a weaker engine, and has much less drag than the spit. Im pretty damn sure that the spit9 accelerates better between 150-250 mph.
Btw, all the luft fanboys suck. Im one though.
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Also, the 109 is lighter, has a weaker engine, and has much less drag than the spit. Im pretty damn sure that the spit9 accelerates better between 150-250 mph.
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/accspit9vs109f_zps75238bc0.jpg)
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The numbers you have listed show that the 109 has an about 2% advantage in turning, both in the dps and the radius. 2%, in the most ideal conditions.
Spit pilots rarely use flaps since they're not very useful, so for a stall-fight the difference in radius is a significant 449 ft for the 109 vs 577 ft for the Spit. That's a more than 20% difference. Add the 109's greater stability near the stall and the result is all but given. With decent pilots of course.
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hmm maybe i just dont know where is the wep button.
Spit pilots rarely use flaps since they're not very useful, so for a stall-fight the difference in radius is a significant 449 ft for the 109 vs 577 ft for the Spit. That's a more than 20% difference. Add the 109's greater stability near the stall and the result is all but given. With decent pilots of course.
"with decent pilots of course" - that doesnt mean that the decent pilot is trying to scissor with no flaps right? If so, there is a 20% difference, really.
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Decent pilots as in knows the different strengths and weaknesses of the two aircraft and has the skill to exploit them. A decent Spit pilot would not use the flaps as they do more harm than good. If it comes to that the Spit has already lost really. The Spit's chance for victory lies in high speed maneuvering and trying to exploit the 109's heavy stick forces at high speed. Low and slow the Spit is at a serious disadvantage.
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^ And that's how a Ki-61 thread turns into yet another Luftwaffe thread.
The 109F was already part of this thread by post no. 3.
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I don't fly the 61 because it has MS Flight Simulator 1.0 graphics. :o
Life is too short to fly in an ugly cockpit.. :old:
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Decent pilots as in knows the different strengths and weaknesses of the two aircraft and has the skill to exploit them. A decent Spit pilot would not use the flaps as they do more harm than good. If it comes to that the Spit has already lost really. The Spit's chance for victory lies in high speed maneuvering and trying to exploit the 109's heavy stick forces at high speed. Low and slow the Spit is at a serious disadvantage.
That flap-down disadvantage isnt half as serious as the 109s disadvantage in clean flight (or its just me sucking in 109s), but basically yes. Wanna have a beer on it? :) :cheers:
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I love beer! :cheers:
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However, everytime I get stuck in an FSO event or Snapshot with the Ki-61, I usually hate myself. Given its usual opponents a P-47, P-38, Corsair, Hellcat - I usually get toasted. Spitfire V's as well, the only decent opponent I could easily combat were P-40s or P-39s.
The Tony is fantastic in special events. Even in late war Pacific events, it can be effective. I'll take it over a Zeke any day.
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Werent there upgunned 61's later in the war when "Mr. B" became a threat? Any chance we'll see that if the plane is remodeled?
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IMHO it's one of the best fighters in the game and I never feel out matched against any nmy bird I come across
Respectfully I disagree, and I feel like I know that thing backwards and forwards. Its a great plane and fun to fly, but not even close to one of the best fighters in the game. Go to the DA on one of our DA after FSO nights or something.
Try fighting in the 61 against guys in my squad, or any of the Blue Knights while they fly their rides. You will get owned. I sure do.
The KI61 is a sleeper for sure, no argument there. But once you fight against some of the more talented guys in AH you quickly see why its a 35 ENY bird.
61 is my favorite plane.. but it really isn't a top ride in game by any means.
my .2 cents.
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Does the 61 still have the cannons wrongly placed in the nose?
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Does the 61 still have the cannons wrongly placed in the nose?
Why is that wrong?
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Does the 61 still have the cannons wrongly placed in the nose?
Our model of Ki-61 had the cannons in the nose, IIRC.
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I didn't think they were "in the nose" I thought they were cowl mounted on top of the nose.
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I didn't think they were "in the nose" I thought they were cowl mounted on top of the nose.
That is "in the nose" in this context. The implication is that they ought to be in the wings.
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Respectfully I disagree, and I feel like I know that thing backwards and forwards. Its a great plane and fun to fly, but not even close to one of the best fighters in the game. Go to the DA on one of our DA after FSO nights or something.
Try fighting in the 61 against guys in my squad, or any of the Blue Knights while they fly their rides. You will get owned. I sure do.
Having flown with alot of those guys (BKs) in the Headhunters....They would own me if i was in an F18, and they were in the Wright Flyer with a slingshot :lol
Muppets are always the best fight....good guys and a blast to fly with or against (i wont tell anyone though :uhoh )
If ya ever want to do some KI61 duels, let me know sir...... :aok
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Having flown with alot of those guys (BKs) in the Headhunters....They would own me if i was in an F18, and they were in the Wright Flyer with a slingshot :lol
Muppets are always the best fight....good guys and a blast to fly with or against (i wont tell anyone though :uhoh )
If ya ever want to do some KI61 duels, let me know sir...... :aok
Sounds good to me. Would love to. :cheers:
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That is "in the nose" in this context. The implication is that they ought to be in the wings.
ah gotcha. thx.
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Tongs told me the first rule of Ki 61 club is not to talk about Ki 61 club... ;)
When we get the remodeled and hopefully other versions of the ki-61, then everyone will want to be in the club. :rock
The Ki-61 when flown right, is a great plane.
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After reading all this I had to go off line and try the Ki-61. To me it is not as good as the C-205 and I much prefer the Me-109F-4. The 109F-4 is my favorite 109 even if the K model is such a great plane to fly. I had some of the same problems hitting the target in the Ki-61 with the cannon as I do the 109K-4. I am not practiced at all with these cannons so my opinion about these guns may not count for much. An eny of 35 for the Ki-61 seems about right to me. :salute
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I know it's not a speed demon, but it retains E really well
It isn't an ord monster but 2x250 isn't bad
It doesn't have a huge cannon in the nose but the one it does have is a killer. Excellent ROF
It doesn't turn like a spit, but I'll fight them all day long and come out on top most of the time
IMHO it's one of the best fighters in the game and I never feel out matched against any nmy bird I come across
I've never made a post regarding ENY and a specific bird before but 35 for this monster seems a bit high. (Not that I'm complaining love getting 20+ perks most sorties ). Just curious what the thinking behind the ENY is :headscratch:
Shhh.
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Shhh.
Lips zipped :noid
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My favorite of all the Japanese planes except the D3A but that's a different mission.
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it is a try hard plane, lovely but an easy kill tbh.
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The A6M2, with a decent pilot, can kill anything that it can get low and slow down, but it's still 40 ENY...
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Here is play on Coalcat's words;
The Sparrow, with a decent pilot, can kill anything that it can get low and slow down
The brick, with a decent pilot, can kill anything that it can get low and slow down
The Golfball, with a decent pilot, can kill anything that it can get low and slow down
The Towel, with a decent pilot, can kill anything that it can get low and slow down
:banana:
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Every time I want to appreciate Japanese aviation I get in a KI-84. It sounds like Ive been missing out not flying the 61.
A 35 eny bird will getya a perk pie should you score a few late wars with it.
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The 61 is very average in pretty much every aspect; Speed, climb, WEP time, turn rate etc.
That makes for an aircraft to be successful in, from a Co-E perspective, an nice challenge as there are very little areas of the plane to fully exploit, (aside from fuel range and robustness).
But as always success is subjective and pilot dependant.
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Here is play on Coalcat's words;
The Sparrow, with a decent pilot, can kill anything that it can get low and slow down
The brick, with a decent pilot, can kill anything that it can get low and slow down
The Golfball, with a decent pilot, can kill anything that it can get low and slow down
The Towel, with a decent pilot, can kill anything that it can get low and slow down
:banana:
:lol the sparrow can kill you, the bird can fly into your engine and the missile can easly kill a plane