Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: BnZs on May 19, 2014, 01:17:16 PM
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One of the civilian flight sims I have lets you display all manner of aerodynamic data on the screen while you're actually flying. AoA, lift, drag, engine thrust, prop efficiency, rate of turn. I think this might be a useful feature for learning to understand the various planes and training at an advanced level.
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Wonder if Hitech really wants to give nit pickers a data mining tool to beat him over the head with? It certainty would cut out a lot of time involved in trying to prove some obscure point to him in the ongoing efforts to prove he favors some rides over other rides and so forth. Or the attempt at the gotcha to prove the Brewster and A6m are from Mars and not earth.
Wonder what Morfiend tells new players err (pilots... :huh) to look at when he's giving lessons in the TA?
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It would be handy for trying different ideas and being able to see the performance effect they have.
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And you get a window into the game that will open a door to all the nitpickers with a pet conspiracy performance grudge against Hitech. You may end up with a tool that can cause more customer hurt feelings than it's worth.
At least now without an actual hardstand convergence app, I have to really work at it to be within a 2Mil error parking on cliff sides. Not all planes fit over a cliff edge the same way with the different possible face angle drops. Spit radiators are a hang down nuisance. I have about 5 different fields I use so the cliff edge doesn't rip the wings off different planes just before I reach 0 azimuth. The F4u landing gear door is just within the terrain collision minimum distance on most cliff faces. I ripped off a lot of wings finding a cliff face with the right slope angle so the door didn't touch the edge just after the wheels started down slope.
In both cases, as far as I can tell, only I bother with nitpicking gunnery in this way, while only a tiny minority bother to go through the time and hassles of flight testing just to argue with each other and Hitech, information Hitech could easily just print out for them.
One benefit of the long hand way of performance testing, over the years, it appears players have found things not in the printout that have interested Hitech.
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Wonder if Hitech really wants to give nit pickers a data mining tool to beat him over the head with?
Since all of this data is derived from aerodynamic testing from WWII and from straight-forward math that use physics to calculate performance from this data, there is nothing to nitpick right?
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Since all of this data is derived from aerodynamic testing from WWII and from straight-forward math that use physics to calculate performance from this data, there is nothing to nitpick right?
Assuming people can agree on the sources. If it were to happen, I'd suggest buying stock in popcorn.
Wiley.
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Wonder if Hitech really wants to give nit pickers a data mining tool to beat him over the head with? It certainty would cut out a lot of time involved in trying to prove some obscure point to him in the ongoing efforts to prove he favors some rides over other rides and so forth. Or the attempt at the gotcha to prove the Brewster and A6m are from Mars and not earth.
Wonder what Morfiend tells new players err (pilots... :huh) to look at when he's giving lessons in the TA?
The enemy of course! loose sight loose fight!
While it may be nice to know AoA,prop efficiency and thrust,those would be of little use during combat and would add greatly to pilot workload.
I've asked some old fighter pilots about this and they always said the same thing,when you're in combat you dont have time to think about engine settings,trim,etc and you just firewall the throttle and do whatever you have to do to not get killed,when thats over you can worry about the A/C and hope it gets you home!
Personally I think players should learn BFM and how to use the liftvector. If most knew this I think there would be less complaining and more fighting!
YMMV.
:salute
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It's not for combat Morf. It is for learning things about airplanes that can later be useful for fighting in them.
Well, here's an example: When turning an airplane at what is supposed to be the optimum for sustained turn rate, and what is less than optimum, I can't eyeball a difference. And I find that I don't personally have enough hands and eyes to monitor the instruments, keep bank angle perfect and ball centered, AND time the turn with a stopwatch with any sort of precision. And this kind of thing can be very important in combat. For instance, what is the best flap setting and speed for best sustained turn rate on a C205? I have no idea should I need to know for a Snapshot or FSO, and as elucidated above, I have no practical way to find out except laborious testing that might not turn out accurate anyway.
The enemy of course! loose sight loose fight!
While it may be nice to know AoA,prop efficiency and thrust,those would be of little use during combat and would add greatly to pilot workload.
I've asked some old fighter pilots about this and they always said the same thing,when you're in combat you dont have time to think about engine settings,trim,etc and you just firewall the throttle and do whatever you have to do to not get killed,when thats over you can worry about the A/C and hope it gets you home!
Personally I think players should learn BFM and how to use the liftvector. If most knew this I think there would be less complaining and more fighting!
YMMV.
:salute
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Bnz, what you requested and what you have just stated the reason you wish to have the info are not the same things.
You just stated why you wanted things, so you could then have calc performance such as turn rate, and possible acceleration.
This type of info can be measured, and hence I would not have an issue providing it.
Things like drag,thrust prop eff and and such are not easy things to accurately find for these planes, and hence I have no desire to publish our data.
HiTech
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This type of info can be measured, and hence I would not have an issue providing it.
E/M diagrams for all the planes? Possibly including different flap configurations? That would be great.
Things like drag,thrust prop eff and and such are not easy things to accurately find for these planes, and hence I have no desire to publish our data.
HiTech
They're not in the public domain?
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It's not for combat Morf. It is for learning things about airplanes that can later be useful for fighting in them.
Well, here's an example: When turning an airplane at what is supposed to be the optimum for sustained turn rate, and what is less than optimum, I can't eyeball a difference. And I find that I don't personally have enough hands and eyes to monitor the instruments, keep bank angle perfect and ball centered, AND time the turn with a stopwatch with any sort of precision. And this kind of thing can be very important in combat. For instance, what is the best flap setting and speed for best sustained turn rate on a C205? I have no idea should I need to know for a Snapshot or FSO, and as elucidated above, I have no practical way to find out except laborious testing that might not turn out accurate anyway.
I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point! The game gives us some clues in the way HTC has it modeled,the best turn rate is riding the blackout tunnel and the best sustained is when the stall horn is blaring and you're just on the edge of buffet.
I dont know about you but when I fly I rarely bother with "keeping the ball in the doghouse" to make sure I'm not skidding in the turn,I'm to busy trying to get guns on the enemy. Since we are not flying "real" planes in a "real" environment and HTC has given us a sort of auto trim,I usually let that take care of things for me. Yes I do toggle off CT at times and in certain planes I dont use CT at all.
Again I will say while it would be nice to know these things,even having a hud that could display them,although I think it might be alot of work to implement,I still think if most players just learned the fundamentals of BFM and worked on putting them together the game would be more fun for everyone!
Look at it like this,I compare it to boxing,you can learn how to throw a right cross,left hook and a jab,then practice them until you get them down. However once in the ring if you have to think,Ok jab,jab, jab, then hook and right cross,well you'll wake up on the mat wondering what just happened! You have to know your BFM and you have to be able to react without thinking,it must be instinctive and you only get to that stage from practice,practice,practice.......Oh did I say practice...one just cant get enough and while it may be nice to know you can fly a perfect turn at best speed it wont help you if the enemy know how to go from defensive to offensive with his BFM!
YMMV.
BnZ, Dont get me wrong,I kind of like the idea as it may help assist me train others but I'm not sure the effort to coad this would be worth it.
:salute
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BnZ I tried to warn you without being overt about it.
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I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point! The game gives us some clues in the way HTC has it modeled,the best turn rate is riding the blackout tunnel and the best sustained is when the stall horn is blaring and you're just on the edge of buffet.
I dont know about you but when I fly I rarely bother with "keeping the ball in the doghouse" to make sure I'm not skidding in the turn,I'm to busy trying to get guns on the enemy. Since we are not flying "real" planes in a "real" environment and HTC has given us a sort of auto trim,I usually let that take care of things for me. Yes I do toggle off CT at times and in certain planes I dont use CT at all.
Again I will say while it would be nice to know these things,even having a hud that could display them,although I think it might be alot of work to implement,I still think if most players just learned the fundamentals of BFM and worked on putting them together the game would be more fun for everyone!
Look at it like this,I compare it to boxing,you can learn how to throw a right cross,left hook and a jab,then practice them until you get them down. However once in the ring if you have to think,Ok jab,jab, jab, then hook and right cross,well you'll wake up on the mat wondering what just happened! You have to know your BFM and you have to be able to react without thinking,it must be instinctive and you only get to that stage from practice,practice,practice.......Oh did I say practice...one just cant get enough and while it may be nice to know you can fly a perfect turn at best speed it wont help you if the enemy know how to go from defensive to offensive with his BFM!
YMMV.
BnZ, Dont get me wrong,I kind of like the idea as it may help assist me train others but I'm not sure the effort to coad this would be worth it.
:salute
PS: edit for this.....I guess I should have read Hitech's reply before I wrote this wall of text...... :bhead
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I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point! The game gives us some clues in the way HTC has it modeled,the best turn rate is riding the blackout tunnel and the best sustained is when the stall horn is blaring and you're just on the edge of buffet.
Are you sure about that last bit? Some writings I have run across lately imply that holding the stick as far back as possible without stalling can actually hurt sustained rate.
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BnZ I tried to warn you without being overt about it.
Warn me about what, Guy-Who-Has-Finished-A-Well-Written-Novel-About-How-Engine-Cannon-Convergence-Is-Modeled-Wrong?
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Are you sure about that last bit? Some writings I have run across lately imply that holding the stick as far back as possible without stalling can actually hurt sustained rate.
Ya I'm pretty sure about that! However, I didnt say holding the stick as far back as possible,I said riding the edge of buffet with the stall horn going off inb your ear!
I dont have stall horn enabled,it annoys the heck outta me so I just ride the buffet!
BnZ I think Bustr's point was that I dont usually teach players to pay attention to those details. Learning corner speed would be the only real exception but that can be done ingame easily. Once you drop below corner you become G limited and in some planes the differences are great.
Again I dont think it's a bad idea,I would like to be able to find out some of those things easier myself and I think it could aide some advanced players but again it comes down to simple practice and would the effort to coad this be worth it.
:salute
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Ya I'm pretty sure about that! However, I didnt say holding the stick as far back as possible,I said riding the edge of buffet with the stall horn going off inb your ear!
Nah man, I wasn't talking about maximum elevator deflection-that will stall you instantly below corner speed, of course. I was talking about holding right below the buffet maybe not being optimum for sustained turning. Darn, I'll try to find a link to the article I was reading.
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When you look at a wing's lift curve there is a point where increasing AOA no longer increases lift, the coefficient of lift decreases, but the increasing AOA still increases drag.
Having a readout of total lift would make it easier to find the best sustained turn speed and radial g.
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When you look at a wing's lift curve there is a point where increasing AOA no longer increases lift, the coefficient of lift decreases, but the increasing AOA still increases drag.
This by definition is a stall.
HiTech
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It's a good definition but I've seen others. There seems to be little agreement on the exact definition. Other choices are being unable to maintain flight level, degraded control authority, and loss of lift dropping a wing.
BnZ is looking for an easy way to determine best sustained turn. Pulling past CLmax will not cause you to stop turning you just won't turn as well. How do you know if you are adding drag without increasing lift when you stabilize at a lower speed and g load?
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This by definition is a stall.
HiTech
:airplane: If the "separation" point moves towards the leading edge of the wing, therefore reducing the square footage available for "lift", the weight of engine will pitch the nose down and you have a stall. (Separation point if the point where stops producing lift and will move forward and backward, depending upon the AOA at that moment!
If you have an aircraft with a 42 foot wingspan and you make a 45 degree banked turn, you have reduced your effective "relative" lift of the wing in half. Relative lift always works vertically AND "resultant" lift works 90 degrees to the wing, which is what turns the aircraft. IN the 45 degree banked turn, your stalling speed is going to go up a good bit and as you work to maintain altitude in the turn, the AOA increases and a rapid "pitch" increase will result in an "accelerated" stall. The FW190D9 will accelerate stall quicker than any aircraft I have flown in this game. Not sure the reason, just does for me anyway!
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It's a good definition but I've seen others. There seems to be little agreement on the exact definition. Other choices are being unable to maintain flight level, degraded control authority, and loss of lift dropping a wing.
BnZ is looking for an easy way to determine best sustained turn. Pulling past CLmax will not cause you to stop turning you just won't turn as well. How do you know if you are adding drag without increasing lift when you stabilize at a lower speed and g load?
There is no other definition. When ever the term stall is used it refers to max cl / max aoa .
Stall speed is max aoa At a speed where the verticle lift component =weight.
HiTech
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There is no other definition. When ever the term stall is used it refers to max cl / max aoa .
Stall speed is max aoa At a speed where the verticle lift component =weight.
HiTech
The aerodynamic stall is clear enough on a theoretical wing. When parts of the wing stall at different times I imagine the loss of lift is partially offset by the part of the wing that increased AOA without reaching the critical angle. If we hear the stall horn when any lift point of the wing exceeds the critical AOA we don't know that we're getting max CL on the wing as a whole, we just know that part of the wing stalled and we must be near max CL. Badboy told me you have to flight test different speed and radial g combinations to find the best sustained turn when I was looking for a formula to figure it out from stall speeds. It's easy to get close but hard to get it exactly right.
If the lift curve is fairly flat on top, as on a low aspect ratio wing, it appears you can increase AOA and increase drag while maintaining CLmax for a bit before CLmax decreases.
Pulling to the stall horn is good general advice but it doesn't help BnZ know if he's making his best sustained turn or if he can improve it.
It's not for combat Morf. It is for learning things about airplanes that can later be useful for fighting in them.
Well, here's an example: When turning an airplane at what is supposed to be the optimum for sustained turn rate, and what is less than optimum, I can't eyeball a difference. And I find that I don't personally have enough hands and eyes to monitor the instruments, keep bank angle perfect and ball centered, AND time the turn with a stopwatch with any sort of precision. And this kind of thing can be very important in combat. For instance, what is the best flap setting and speed for best sustained turn rate on a C205? I have no idea should I need to know for a Snapshot or FSO, and as elucidated above, I have no practical way to find out except laborious testing that might not turn out accurate anyway.
You don't need the exact figures. Take the C205 with your combat load and fly it fast enough to pull 4g at the altitude you expect to fight at. Hold 4g until you slow down enough that you can't maintain 4g. The stall horn will warn you. If you don't slow down make a shallow spiral climb at 4g. Note the minimum IAS where you can pull 4gs. This is twice your stall speed. Now take your stall speed and multiply by 1.67. This is your 2.8g stall speed. Multiply your stall speed by 1.7 and you get your 3g stall speed. These 2 speeds are your best sustained turn speed range. The 3g speed is likely fast enough to loop vertically. The 2.8g speed is likely closer to your best sustained turn but the actual speed and radial g load factor depends on the specific aircraft. For better figures you would use these numbers as a starting point for testing. For air combat with changing weights and altitudes they may be close enough that you don't need to improve them and it's a fast way to get useful figures for unfamiliar aircraft.
If there's no time to test use the default auto climb/speed setting at 3g for sustained turn. The easy way to time turn rate tests is to film them, focus on flying, time them while watching the film.
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:airplane: If the "separation" point moves towards the leading edge of the wing, therefore reducing the square footage available for "lift", the weight of engine will pitch the nose down and you have a stall. (Separation point if the point where stops producing lift and will move forward and backward, depending upon the AOA at that moment!
If you have an aircraft with a 42 foot wingspan and you make a 45 degree banked turn, you have reduced your effective "relative" lift of the wing in half. Relative lift always works vertically AND "resultant" lift works 90 degrees to the wing, which is what turns the aircraft. IN the 45 degree banked turn, your stalling speed is going to go up a good bit and as you work to maintain altitude in the turn, the AOA increases and a rapid "pitch" increase will result in an "accelerated" stall. The FW190D9 will accelerate stall quicker than any aircraft I have flown in this game. Not sure the reason, just does for me anyway!
Stall speed increases 18% in a 45 degree bank turn. Load factor is 1.4g.
If you copy mode 1 to mode 3 in clipboard/options/controller setup you can set a different pitch scale tailored to the D9. If you have a spare button you can set it to change you to mode 3 from mode 1 and in mode 3 it can be set to change you back to mode 1. This lets you push one button to change the scaling on the pitch axis while everything else remains the same.
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Yes FLS, this is exactly what I was thinking. I look at airfoil data some, and beyond a certain point, some of them seem to gain a lot of drag for little increase in lift BEFORE they actually reach the AoA where lift is lost entirely.
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The fact that we talk about the stall occurring at the critical AOA is misleading. The stall begins at the critical AOA. As AOA increases past critical we are still flying, with less lift, until we suddenly stop flying. The critical AOA divides flying unstalled and flying stalled. Being unable to maintain level flight is telling us we're stalled. High AOA let's us descend without gaining speed because of the high drag. We are stalled but we also call it landing.
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What exactly do the onset of the stall sound and the buffet sound indicate aerodynamically?
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What exactly do the onset of the stall sound and the buffet sound indicate aerodynamically?
For purposes of sound the Max AOA is taken from the inner wing, and the Current AOA is the greatest AOA of any portion of the wing.
The stall horn ramps with the CurrentAOA between MaxAOA - 4deg to MaxAOA;
The Buffet sound starts when CurrentAOA is greater then the MaxAOA.
But none of this has any effect on what you are saying you wish, is to find a way to maximize turn performance.
This would be much better accomplished simply by giving you a turn rate display along with an acceleration (speed acceleration) display.
The actual force numbers would not provide you with any information that would be use full in flying.
HiTech
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Does that mean your best sustained turn is always prior to stall buffet or does it vary by aircraft?
It sounds like halfway up the stall buzzer ramp gives you the same performance as the stall limiter at max.
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Stall speed increases 18% in a 45 degree bank turn. Load factor is 1.4g.
If you copy mode 1 to mode 3 in clipboard/options/controller setup you can set a different pitch scale tailored to the D9. If you have a spare button you can set it to change you to mode 3 from mode 1 and in mode 3 it can be set to change you back to mode 1. This lets you push one button to change the scaling on the pitch axis while everything else remains the same.
:airplane: Wow! What a difference! Thanks for the info!
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You're welcome Earl.
Deadband and damping settings are the same for all modes but scaling can be different for each mode.
Modes are also a convenient way to compare settings for initial setup since you can switch between 4 different setups on the fly.