Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Vudu15 on June 06, 2014, 11:14:46 PM
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each link will tak you to a video that is 30mins in length so be ready the course is roughly 3 hours long and you should really attend if you can...but since you cant here it is as I myself went though it and filmed it on behalf of Ryno.
Ryno has by the way put in a TON of work to set this up and should be commended and so I shall give him this.
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff442/Vuduvince/276179_Papel-de-Parede-Meme-Mother-of-God_1920x1200.jpg)
and now the videos
Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoeZIX5TnAI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoeZIX5TnAI)
Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39WeTGrp_wQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39WeTGrp_wQ)
Part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HrucFwVJy0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HrucFwVJy0)
Part 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7fGH3BQkes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7fGH3BQkes)
Part 5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4sGKJAxC88 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4sGKJAxC88)
Part 6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNkcHPtTeiA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNkcHPtTeiA)
this will keep yall busy for a bit :D
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Thanks for posting this up Vudu :aok I know Ryno worked hard at getting this training together.
:salute
BigRat
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Thanks again for doing this Vudu and for the recommendation others take the course! If I were a video guru, I could probably do this whole thing in a series of three 20 minute videos (a one-hour total) tops. But running things live slows things down a lot with comms issues, questions and setup time.
The live course should really be about 2 hours (and was the 2nd night). So, these could definitely use some editing down, especially the parts where I have to repeat the dot commands 3 or 4 times. :) One thing I learned from the first night was to type more things in the buffer, and that made it smoother and closer to 2 hours when I ran it the second night. Also, the second night I used my "T" key more for talking, as it seems the button on my stick was getting worn out, causing me to cut in and out too much the first night. Live and learn.
When I get time, I'll watch through all these and post a list of what time segments I think are the important parts, so people don't have to wade through so much.
I did notice one problem with the first and second videos, as you left the 325 yard target up the whole time. That means people aren't seeing all the ranges I'm discussing. Also, I forgot to say to set your zoom mode pushed all the way in (I've added that point to my course notes now!), as the bullet patterns are better viewed zoomed all the way in.
So, what I would recommend people do for Video #1 and the first part of Video #2 (up to the point we get airborne) is listen to it while in game and actually follow along doing the setup and shooting yourself. In other words, let it play in the background while in the TA or offline, as this way you can see all the bullet patterns as discussed.
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Ryno
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Awesome!!!!! Thanks for putting this together. I look forward to checking them out tonight!!!
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rgr Ryno you give the times you like and Ill cut em down and get them reset. If you'd like less films I can do that as well your material you let me know how you'd like it.
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Hope you don't mind if I link this thread into the ultimate dogfighter help thread. :D :aok :salute
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errrrrrr.....where's the sound?
MY bad...something's wrong on my end. Just tried a Vudu You Tube and there's no sound there either...and I know he makes a lotta noise :devil
I have sound in AH tho....what's going on here?
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Max, your volume on the bottom left of your YouTube player window is possibly muted or turned down...
Only thing I can think of right off hand...
Good luck, I set in on Kingpin's first night of this lecture, and must say he did a great job and encourage anyone needing help with gunnery to watch the videos in numbered order....
Great class , Kingpin! and good job as always on getting it on video, Vudu!
TC
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I checked that TC. Can't get sound from WMP either. Possible related to the issues I've been having.
Like I said, was in game earlier and everything was fine.
{edit} sounds workin again including You Tube :noid
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Still an awesome set of video's. I learn more every time I watch them. :salute
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Still an awesome set of video's. I learn more every time I watch them. :salute
It is.
I should add the quote Aim small. Miss small
To my signature.
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Still an awesome set of video's. I learn more every time I watch them. :salute
It is.
Thanks for the comments, gents. Nice to get some positive feedback and know this was worth the time.
Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to run that introduction course or the intermediate course focused on "deflection shooting" yet. I have done some individual sessions and I think for the more advanced stuff keeping it to one or two at at time may be better suited. So, in the meantime I'd like to offer individual sessions with anyone interested (limited to 2 players at a time) for either the Introduction to Gunnery or the Deflection Shooting course.
If you are interested in either of these, please PM me or post here with your preferred day(s) of the week and times that work, and I'll contact you about setting up a session.
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Ryno
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Study time
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I watched the first video. Neat stuff. Ill go through the others.
No wonder hitting something with the 37mm in a p39 feels like winning the lottery. I shot each round individually and waited for the plane to settle before firing another round.
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z207/Pimpzdog/ahss186_zps7edac5e6.png) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Pimpzdog/media/ahss186_zps7edac5e6.png.html)
I did another and zoomed in so as to see it better.
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z207/Pimpzdog/ahss187_zpseed5feb0.png) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/Pimpzdog/media/ahss187_zpseed5feb0.png.html)
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I just watched the second video. That's pretty interesting about changing the range of the target so you can see where the rounds fall at different points of their trajectory. Im goin to mess with that a bit and see if I can get my shooting eye in. I love it when folks get all scientific like about this stuff. :aok
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Rate of fire is what makes the p39s cannon so terrible. Its trajectory is actually pretty flat compared to the mk108s ballistics.
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I watched the first video. Neat stuff. Ill go through the others.
No wonder hitting something with the 37mm in a p39 feels like winning the lottery. I shot each round individually and waited for the plane to settle before firing another round.
I strongly suggest you do this testing in flight, especially when testing cannon which have a much larger ballistic arc. I did the bullet pattern demonstration that you see in the video on the ground only to make it a consistent image of the bullet pattern for everyone, while I was focusing primarily on horizontal separation of the bullet stream and 50-cal dispersion patterns at longer range. Vertical drop is not accurately represented when firing on the ground, especially at longer ranges (which I believe I mention at some point in the video). Because your nose is pitched up significantly when on the ground, the ballistic arc is not the same as it is in level flight.
For accurate testing of bullet drop, with cannon rounds especially, conduct your target testing in level flight at a steady cruising speed. I suggest letting the aircraft reach a steady cruising speed (without WEP) when you conduct your test-firing, because the pitch (AoA) in level flight will change with speed. You will notice this if you bring up the target in front of you immediately after take-off and then go into auto-level. Your nose will slowly settle downward as speed increases. This is because as speed increases, the necessary pitch (angle of attack) for level flight lessens. Since the pitch of your aircraft affects the ballistic arc of the rounds, change in pitch due to speed is also a factor when observing bullet drop on the target. It is therefore important to take note of your airspeed when doing ballistics testing.
Also note if you are pitching up or down to point your pipper at the bulls-eye of the target, you are changing your airspeed as well. If you are staying pitched up slightly to aim at the bulls-eye (as is required in some aircraft at higher speeds), your speed is decreasing while you are aiming. You may need to go into auto-level again, reach a steady cruising speed and test again to get consistent results.
For an interesting and dramatic example, try taking up a 109K4 and firing the MK108 30mm (only) at a the center of the target 500 yards out. First fire several short bursts while at 275 IAS, then fire several short bursts (again with your pipper on the center of the target) at 335 IAS -- notice how you get different groupings even at the same range with the only change being airspeed.
Hope this information is helpful. As always, please feel free to PM me if you have any questions or would like to set up some gunnery practice time.
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Ryno
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So in a nut shell I should just pull the trigger and cross my fingers :D That's interesting stuff Ryno Ill give that test a go. I have to finish watching the other videos as well. Thank you! :aok
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Pipz
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So in a nut shell I should just pull the trigger and cross my fingers :D That's interesting stuff Ryno Ill give that test a go. I have to finish watching the other videos as well. Thank you! :aok
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Pipz
Nawwww he's saying use the target commands in the air to get a better idea of the "lob" that spud takes. Get to alt, steady in flight for a few minutes then bring the target up at the heading your cruising at. By moving the target in and out and firing each time you will be able to see the arc for the convergence you have it set at. This way you will be able to figure out the aim point for what ever range your shooting at.
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Thanks Fugi :aok That last comment I made was my attempt at light sarcastic humor ;) Seems like shooting can be a lot more involved than just eyeballing it if ya really get into it.
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Rate of fire is what makes the p39s cannon so terrible. Its trajectory is actually pretty flat compared to the mk108s ballistics.
Seems like shooting can be a lot more involved than just eyeballing it if ya really get into it.
Yes, you can really learn some things about certain guns and the effects of your convergence settings by testing in this way. I went ahead and did some quick tests with the P-39Q using only the M4 37mm gun. As Glz said above, it does fire "pretty" flat (especially as compared to the MK108 30mm), out to about 400 yards. However, there is still some "lobbing of the round" involved, especially at longer ranges.
I used a convergence setting of 300 yards. After observing fairly flat firing patterns at closer ranges, I started firing at targets at 600 yards and again at 800 yards at altitudes of 5K and 15K and speeds from 275 to 300 mph to determine the proper aim point at those various distances, alts and speeds. Once I knew the approximate aim point for those 2 ranges, I cleared the target, then fired 60 rounds in single shots to see what kind of dispersion I would get at those ranges (with the desired impact point being just below the bulls-eye).
In the screen shots below you can see what those bullet groupings look like. The screen shot is taken with the pipper on the proper aim point for that range. The targets were both brought in to 300 yards (after shooting the target at 600 and 800) so that the hits would be more visible. For reference, I also superimposed a Dora on the 600 target and a Dora and Lanc on the 800 target, so you can get an idea of what rounds would hit a fighter or a bomber at those distances.
My observations:
Try to shoot in close. 200-300 yards is best. This is a good rule of thumb all of the time. If you are shooting at long range, you need to be aware that you are wasting considerable ammo. With a clip of only 30 rounds for the M4 in the P-39, it probably isn't worth it. That said, if you can live with shooting a considerable portion of your ammo to get a kill, it can be done at longer ranges.
I would say with practice and decent aim you could reliably hit a fighter in level flight dead six ("extending from you") at 600 yards with maybe 40% of the rounds. At 800 yards, however, only 20% or 1 in 5 rounds fired would hit a fighter dead 6 profile (I estimated 12-14 hits out of 60 rounds in my test and that was aiming very carefully). However, a Lancaster bomber could be consistently hit out to 800 yards. I didn't test at 1000 yards, but it might be something you could try, using the methods I just described, if you wanted to bomber-hunt in the P39-Q. Be sure to test at "bomber altitudes" as well. An easy way to do this is to select the TA (Training Arena) terrain for Offline mode and use the 20K or 15K bases in the bottom left of the map (Field 34, for example).
Another observation is that it is important to be wings level when lobbing rounds out at long range. I've noticed this with the K4, but also observed it while doing this testing with the P-39. If you are rolled just a small amount (under 5-degrees) the lobbing effect will amplify this bank angle and cause the round to "sail" out to the left or right. You can see a few rounds outside the inner (20 foot) circle on my 600 yard target - these were rounds that sailed off to the left because I was "rolling into the shot" just a slight amount. Factors such as bank angle, nose-bounce and yawing are exaggerated with range, so it makes long-range sniping even harder and less efficient (another reason not to try it without considerable practice and understanding of the waste of ammo that results).
(http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh599/Rhino551988/P39_37mmHitsWithAimpoint_600yds_190Insert_zps29afe18d.jpg)
(http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh599/Rhino551988/P39_37mmHitsWithAimpoint_800yds_190andLancInsert_zpsad4783d5.png)
Hope this is a helpful example of how to conduct and use this kind of testing.
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Ryno
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Careful Pipz, Don't hurt yourself!!!! :D :D :D :D :D