Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on June 18, 2014, 05:20:43 PM
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Hello,
What AH2 prop planes would you consider NOT being easy mode planes in the late war arena and why?
Without a thought most Spits would come to mind as being easy mode. The jury seems still out on the opposite. Seems harder to get a consensus on that.
I'd say for me it is the very early P-40's because they lack speed, rate of climb, gun package compared to late war monsters. That does not mean they are not fun to fly. They are!
Thanks,
Slade :salute
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Well, any early model plane is definitely not easy mode, but if you are talking about planes that are flyable, but still a challenge, then you'd be looking at the Yak 7B, F4F (not the FM2), and maybe some of the early model 109's.
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I was thinking F4f too. Good nose over view but everything else takes ample effort (and luck) to make up for.
F4f is a fun bird to fly!
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To be effective in? The Ki-43, A6M's, Hurricanes, F4F and 109E. They rely on turning, and don't have the speed, or climb to play the E game, and really rely on the enemy making a mistake.
Furthermore, these are the slowest fighters in the game, and thus are unable to disengage. If they get in a fight, it's to the death.
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A6M2. :)
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What are you using as a criteria for "easy mode planes"? The ease in which how a plane flies or how easy it is to kill in a particular plane? Some planes, while easy to fly are hard to get kills in and vice versa. Basically, what is an easy mode plane is rather subjective and will very from person to person.
ack-ack
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La7 :bolt:
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Spixteen, La-7, K4 if you're a 109 vet, Spit 14 if you're a 109 vet, Ki-84.
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spits are not easy mode except the 16, because they can be run down easily, forced to turn then get ganged, are very fragile and hold little fuel except the 8.
I would say a P38, P47-D40-25 190A5-8, tiffie, KI-61, c205 are tougher planes to be successful in the MA with. They just aren't quite as good as other planes and will struggle to get out of tight situations.
I would focus more on the pilot flying against me than the plane though. I kill a large number of spitfires flown by average players because they aren't very good, NOT because the plane is easy to fly. It is a soft wing and a sprinkle of 50 cal will take it right off.
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Among fighters the P-40C is the hardest mode of all. For level bombers it is probably the He111.
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except the unarmed planes, Kate must be hardest to get good scores in, first let them get on your 6, then kill them with the rear 7mm peashooter.
Flown incorrectly most planes are death-traps.
La7 is the probably hardest to be unsuccessful in.
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Become as proficient in 109s as the great Pony/Spixteen sticks are in those; that's challenging.
Fly against the horde and up from capped fields...you'll get a k/d like mine this tour lol.
The K-4's cannon is hard to get used; the G-14 flown to its strength only has one cannon, or you can take the 30mm like the K-4...
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P-39
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I may have missed some out but the main contenders,
Out of the 109 range the non EZ modes are; E F G
Out of the Spit range the non EZ modes are; 1 5
The rest non EZ modes; La5 Yak7 P40 P47D C202 Ki61 190A Hurri
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I think the only 109 that's a challenge to get kills in is the Emil because of it's weak engine compare to most everything you'll meet in the MA. From the F4 onwards though all 109s have more than enough engine power to give even the most "EZ mode" planes trouble. Same with planes like the yak7, P-47D's, 190A5, or a lot of other high eny planes. The BEST dogfighters are not the 5-10 ENY planes. The BEST dogfighters are in the 25-40 ENY range! :aok
I have never been worried about the La-7 or the P-51D, but I am very very cautious about that P-38G!
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spits are not easy mode except the 16, because they can be run down easily, forced to turn then get ganged, are very fragile and hold little fuel except the 8.
I would say a P38, P47-D40-25 190A5-8, tiffie, KI-61, c205 are tougher planes to be successful in the MA with. They just aren't quite as good as other planes and will struggle to get out of tight situations.
I would focus more on the pilot flying against me than the plane though. I kill a large number of spitfires flown by average players because they aren't very good, NOT because the plane is easy to fly. It is a soft wing and a sprinkle of 50 cal will take it right off.
I got to agree about most Spitfires. I didn't like them mostly because they are fragile. A few hits in the right place and I am down. This is the same reason I don't use Japanese planes as much as I like the way they fly. I prefer American planes because they are rugged and gives me a better chance in a fight since I am more of a tanker and less of a pilot in AH. The P-40s are the hardest of the American plane set to win in for me in LW. :cheers:
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I got to agree about most Spitfires. I didn't like them mostly because they are fragile. A few hits in the right place and I am down. This is the same reason I don't use Japanese planes as much as I like the way they fly. I prefer American planes because they are rugged and gives me a better chance in a fight since I am more of a tanker and less of a pilot in AH. The P-40s are the hardest of the American plane set to win in for me in LW. :cheers:
the Ki84 is the toughest of all the Japanese planes in the hanger...
and it is just about in line with the 47 maybe even taking a bit more damage.
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I dont know about the f4f... in march i flew it a bunch in LW and my results were 48kills 23deaths. Now the p-39D I would say is expert mode
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But that's after 1000's of hours in the 109s Latrobe. If you go back to your first impressions about the 109s I'd bet you thought I can't see out of these; the dang windows have bars in the middle...
I don't know if got those ahaaa moments when you were flying but I had one in the G-14 several months ago and I got this feeling of confidence that I now understood the plane (although not completely) better than the rest of the plane set. It was a great feeling, something that just "clicked" and was achieved.
:salute
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There is only one fighter harder to do well in than all others, in my opinion: the P-40.
Now, in a scenario environment, where you are in many on many against the historical plane set (in this case A6M2), the P-40 is nice. But in the MA, I think it's the hardest plane.
I think F4F's, P-39D's, and A6M2's are all decent. Worse, in my opinion, are C.202's (but only because guns are so very weak), Spit I's, Hurri I's, Bf 109E's, and Bf 110C's -- but you can still kill OK in those if you use their strengths.
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Yea p-39D & early model p-40's
Nothing easy there.
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Depends on how the person is flying any plane.
I think certain planes attributes make it easy for people to fly it in a(IMO) lame way.
LA7....everyone has seen the guy running around a CV fight picking the heavy rides but is never in a slightly dangerous spot(except puffy) because of it's speed, acceleration and climb rate compared to CV rides.
P51/Dora/P47....Yes you may be flying "historically" but when you fly this way in groups of 3-8(depending on the size of furball) it's not hard to land 5+ kills and it ruins gameplay for others.
Hogs/P38....example Jayro/Uglystik(think that was how he spelled his name), easy to get kills when you only fly at fights where you have all the advantage advantage. Very Good gun packs, can fight the BnZ fight well, can evade highger BnZers with ease.
Many other examples of easy mode out there.....just a few with reason for it.
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Any P40.
Everybody still runs from them though. :(
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It is quite simple really....
Easy mode plane = any plane better than yours.
Non-easy mode plane = any plane worse than yours.
;)
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Yea p-39D & early model p-40's
Nothing easy there.
Agreed.
- oldman
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I think that the P-39D is a good plane that is decently competitive. It's reasonably fast at MA altitudes, isn't a bad climber, handles well at speed, has good firepower, turns reasonably well, and has a small target area.
The P-40 is another matter. :uhoh At least for me.
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It is quite simple really....
Easy mode plane = any plane better than yours.
Non-easy mode plane = any plane worse than yours.
;)
This.
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The G6 is easy mode, almost spit-like. The Spits are the legalized cheat though ;)
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Spits are easy meat if you know how to fly against them. Easier meat if you're flying an FM2.
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Spits are easy meat if you know how to fly against them. Easier meat if you're flying an FM2.
Why, how to fly against a Spit?
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Ever flown a lone 17 into a furball, tried to dogfight and not tear off wings?
It sounds simple, to just lazily roll and block a shot, but try and do a smidge of maneuvering and enjoy a 17 with one wing
:mad:
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The C-47 is EZ.
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The only Spits that aren't absolute trainers are the Spit I and Spit V.
Ki84 is Japanese Spitfire. Rugged, super climb, uber flap trainer.
La7, D Pony, M jug, Temp, Dora, 4-Hog, K4*... qualify as easy mode. Fast and well armed, if you die in these planes more than rarely, you made a mistake somewhere, bad.
*K4, the only thing that makes a fair argument is the 30mm, but once you master that gun (or even just get decent with it) there are few planes in the game that the K4 cannot run down, out turn, and kill with ease. A well flown K4 with any altitude is just as dangerous as a Tempest or 262.
"Not easy mode?"
P-39's, P-40's, I-16
Yak 7, Spit and Hurri I, F4F, Emil slightly "less hard"
Not easy, but not hard: La5FN, Yaks 9 and 3, 109F and G, most 47's, 38's, and blue planes. B pony, Ki61
All that aside, the real determining factor on what is an easy mode and what plane is a pig? Aside from the pilot, which one of the two has the altitude and speed advantage. The low and slow Tempest/K4/Dora will get owned by the high, fast P39D, P-40C, or I-16 almost every time.
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The only Spits that aren't absolute trainers are the Spit I and Spit V.
And XIV. At least in AH ;)
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And XIV. At least in AH ;)
yeh, forgot about that D pony that is shaped like a Spitfire. :aok
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The only Spits that aren't absolute trainers are the Spit I and Spit V.
Ki84 is Japanese Spitfire. Rugged, super climb, uber flap trainer.
La7, D Pony, M jug, Temp, Dora, 4-Hog, K4*... qualify as easy mode. Fast and well armed, if you die in these planes more than rarely, you made a mistake somewhere, bad.
*K4, the only thing that makes a fair argument is the 30mm, but once you master that gun (or even just get decent with it) there are few planes in the game that the K4 cannot run down, out turn, and kill with ease. A well flown K4 with any altitude is just as dangerous as a Tempest or 262.
"Not easy mode?"
P-39's, P-40's, I-16
Yak 7, Spit and Hurri I, F4F, Emil slightly "less hard"
Not easy, but not hard: La5FN, Yaks 9 and 3, 109F and G, most 47's, 38's, and blue planes. B pony, Ki61
All that aside, the real determining factor on what is an easy mode and what plane is a pig? Aside from the pilot, which one of the two has the altitude and speed advantage. The low and slow Tempest/K4/Dora will get owned by the high, fast P39D, P-40C, or I-16 almost every time.
How are you defining easy? From a veteran's perspective, or a noobs? From a "survive and land kills" perspective, or a "win dogfights" perspective?
The jug, temp, Dora and K4 I would only consider poor-average dogfighters, and are rather bad choices for a noob. But in skilled hands, and flown right, they are exceptionally good.
Also there are many planes that can out turn a K4.
And the E4 is slower than the P-40's, can't turn with an F4F, or I-16, and has those awful MGFF/M's.
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And the E4 is slower than the P-40's, can't turn with an F4F, or I-16, and has those awful MGFF/M's.
It can turn with an F4F :old:
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C-hog. It takes effort to not get a kill in that plane.
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We know things are relative. We know the skill of the pilot is always a factor.
That being said, the consensus seems to be that the hardest planes to get kills in (given the broad complete range of late war situations) are: P-40, C-202, P-39d and F4f.
Also mentioned are Spit I, Hurri I, A6m2, BF-109e.
Is there any other plane that one could make a case for that takes significantly more effort than most to get kills in?
Thanks for all your posts!
Slade :salute
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Add Bf110c to that not so easy planes on the list.
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Will do save.
In your experience what makes the Bf110c challenging to fly?
Thanks.
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There's a list?
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GScholz,
Put your glasses on and read back about 3 posts.
:salute
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Be careful what you ask for...
Here (http://www.michael-elliott.com/wikis/ww2planes/index.php?n=Site.ChallengingPlanes) is the actual list.
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To me the P-39D with the 20mm package is easier to get kills than the P-39Q for the average Joe and Jane. The D can catch a spit 16 driver in the ho-hum mode. Its not a killer but should be a notch above the Q in a furbal.
The biggest problem is the tail comes off all to easy.
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Also there are many planes that can out turn a K4.
Yeah if you flat turn it. But who would be dumb enough to flat turn a K4?
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When I played the K4 was considered a very good airplane, but only to those few who took the time to master it. Otherwise it was a finicky beast with a difficult gun, very difficult for the inexperienced to excel in. It's interesting to see how that perception has changed.
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When I played the K4 was considered a very good airplane, but only to those few who took the time to master it. Otherwise it was a finicky beast with a difficult gun, very difficult for the inexperienced to excel in. It's interesting to see how that perception has changed.
I dont think the "reality" has changed. It is a "finicky beast with a difficult gun". Yet it is also a Beast! Its very, very fast and climbs like a monkey.
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When I played the K4 was considered a very good airplane, but only to those few who took the time to master it. Otherwise it was a finicky beast with a difficult gun, very difficult for the inexperienced to excel in. It's interesting to see how that perception has changed.
Not many noobs anymore :(.
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110c turns good for a short while, but lacks the power and speed for LWA, and the 20mm FF and peashooters force you to close in to kill.
Even a HO against a 110c might be a good idea due to the 20mm FF short range. 110g2 is quite another bird though, 110c often gets mistaken for a G2, and everyone avoids your front arc like plaque until they find out.
Chasing buffs give you one opportunity to HO them once , but most buffs are faster than the 110c, and front .50 kills you easy.
Its one of the hardest planes to get good K/D in since everyone try for you disregarding all other planes, also very fragile.
One feature it shares with the 110g and 410 is its good diving capability.
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110c turns good for a short while, but lacks the power and speed for LWA, and the 20mm FF and peashooters force you to close in to kill.
Even a HO against a 110c might be a good idea due to the 20mm FF short range. 110g2 is quite another bird though, 110c often gets mistaken for a G2, and everyone avoids your front arc like plaque until they find out.
Chasing buffs give you one opportunity to HO them once , but most buffs are faster than the 110c, and front .50 kills you easy.
Its one of the hardest planes to get good K/D in since everyone try for you disregarding all other planes, also very fragile.
One feature it shares with the 110g and 410 is its good diving capability.
I lost a 110C in a HO with a Zero. :lol
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I lost a 110C in a HO with a Zero. :lol
I killed an F4U-1C in an HO with me in an A6M5b. It is just a matter of who hits, or, as in my personal example, who hits better. The cannons on the A6M5b and N1K2-J are the second hardest hitting 20mm cannons in the game on a round per round basis.
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There are those that many agree are easy mode, thou to me non easy mode planes are planes that fly outside your preferred performance envelope. For example I like the turn fight, energy fight and play in the vertical in an aggressive fight pattern. For me boom and zoom type fighting is difficult and planes like the 190d, ta 152, me262, even the f4u, p51, and p47. Not to say I cant fly those planes but I tend to turn fight and well die because I'm not playing to the strengths of the airframe.
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I fly the 39D a good bit and I gotta agree with the guys about the p-40 there is nothing I can find I like about it.
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I fly the 39D a good bit and I gotta agree with the guys about the p-40 there is nothing I can find I like about it.
The P-40 is very maneuverable: turns well, rolls well and has good elevator authority. It also has six .50 calibers, which are far more versatile and easier to use, than the wacky setup in the P-39D.
<disclaimer> the poster in no way concedes that the P-40 is easy mode, just slow-motion fun.
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The P-40 is very maneuverable: turns well, rolls well and has good elevator authority. It also has six .50 calibers, which are far more versatile and easier to use, than the wacky setup in the P-39D.
<disclaimer> the poster in no way concedes that the P-40 is easy mode, just slow-motion fun.
maybe I just don't spend enough time in it. the setup is easy on the 39d miss with the cannon(use the 20) miss with the fifties and use the 30's
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The P-40's turning ability is poor. It can turn fairly well, so long as it has altitude to trade for E. Without that there are many faster planes that will out turn it.
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For me it's any f4u followed by a 38. I just can't grasp the f4u. The easiest for me to handle, and what I'm most comfortable in is either the n1k, zero and my favorite, the Hellcat. Some say the hellcat is similar to the corsair. Matter of opinion but I have to disagree... The plane I hate going up against the most, once again, corsair...
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The P-40's turning ability is poor. It can turn fairly well, so long as it has altitude to trade for E. Without that there are many faster planes that will out turn it.
So which is it? :)
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maybe I just don't spend enough time in it. the setup is easy on the 39d miss with the cannon(use the 20) miss with the fifties and use the 30's
:lol I usually only hit with the 30s, too.
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So which is it? :)
I say it is poor because it burns E like mad while doing it and cannot turn well without burning a lot of altitude to do so. It turns decently while it has the E to burn, but once that is gone it turns poorly.
My personal experience fighting against it.
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This may be a bit opaque to some; KArnak's statement. Does everybody get that when you look at, for example, Mosq's turn rate hierarchy, that you're looking at steady-state turn with no alt loss at a known loading and flap condition?
To get no alt loss and best turn, you're generally at a severe bank angle and something close to either CLMax OR, at least, the best CL you can get without decelerating, ie, you're either stall or power limited. It is also true that you can exceed the steady state turn rate by turning your lift vector such (by banking) that you lose alt.
As for that K4, its turning ability isn't that bad. REferring to the Mosq chart cited above (I want to say a hint less than 20 dps at 25% fuel, no flap), you'll find it can indeed turn with some of 'em.In fact, I'd call it a Pony Killer, since the Pony can't outclimb it, outrun it (alt dependent), or outturn it. I always up it when I get tired of Runstang tactics. As for the gun, I too have been frustrated, at times, with the 30's poor ballistics caused by its low muzzle velocity. However, I also note that, firing straight up or straight down, there is no need to compensate for drop. Indeed, I was shocked at how easy it is to flame a B-17 from directly above or below yesterday. The coolest thing is, if you're carrying enough speed (and the k-4 has plenty), you can approach the bomber from a very low 6, staying out of gun range, get below and ahead, then pull vertical and take your shot. The tricky part: if you don't pull out of the zoom, you might just find yourself hanging by your prop at low velocity a couple of hundred meters above the formation. Even so, if you pull off before you get above and with decent speed, you're still not that easy a target. Plus, the tactic seems unexpected, at least in the couple of trials I ran yesterday.
I'm still waiting for the dude who wrote that Spits are easy to kill... I'd say, as encountered, they can often be BnZed, if you're a good shot (I'm not, especially). I'd also say that, if you dogfight them, generally you are dead, dead, dead. However, it seems like that guy was an FM2 fan. Spitty can out run it and is the energy fighter in an FM-Spit encounter.
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I say it is poor because it burns E like mad while doing it and cannot turn well without burning a lot of altitude to do so. It turns decently while it has the E to burn, but once that is gone it turns poorly.
My personal experience fighting against it.
This matches my experience with P40s (in and against) as well.... It's a lot like the 110G in that regard ie if you have some room under you to trade for E you can make a decent match against better planes as long as the opposition doesn't play it smart and bileed your E.
110G isn't quite as bad as some of the early model P40 of course... And has much better guns.
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I'm still waiting for the dude who wrote that Spits are easy to kill... I
http://www.mediafire.com/download/hsadbmk8ehqzn4s/spitLeft.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/hsadbmk8ehqzn4s/spitLeft.ahf)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/qlri58eybwrrxy7/p51spitIX.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/qlri58eybwrrxy7/p51spitIX.ahf)
They have tremendous thrust, and, as modeled in Aces High, they hold energy through turns freakishly well. Almost to the point that their E retention in turns can be a liability. This means that a Spit in the hands of the uninitiated will often be making a huge turn initially and one can cut inside it through throttle management. In the hands of those with a clue of course, this energy retention is just another factor making you dead, dead, dead.
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Opps! :bolt:
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:headscratch:
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:headscratch:
I was trying to fix a misspelling I noticed from my post yesterday, but didnt realize I hit "Quote" and ended up with a whole new post.
Dur hur. Me stupid. :)