Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: artik on July 09, 2014, 05:56:33 AM
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Textron AirLand’s Scorpion had performed an Atlantic crossing (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-look-scorpion-touches-down-in-uk-401167/) yesterday and landed in UK to take a part in the Farnborough International Airshow.
To those who do not follow, Scorpion is a light attack aircraft designed for a low cost operations with target flight hour price of $3,000.
(http://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Scorpion-New-Look.png)
What is even more remarkable that its maiden flight was performed in December 2013! According to the Wikipedia, it was designed by a small (less than 200) and very focused team. Its flight testing was so far very smooth. I think it is a remarkable achievement even for a relatively simpler aircraft.
It becomes even more outstanding, when you look at another high profile example that should perform first and very complex Atlantic crossing to show up in Farnborough, the aircraft that is under development for more than a decade with an unprecedented investment and was recently grounded (once again) due to engine problems (so it isn't clear (http://aviationweek.com/defense/f-35-still-awaiting-clearance-transatlantic-deployment) if it would make to Farnborough at all).
It makes me think of some other spectacular aircraft that had simplicity and cost efficiency in their mind and become quite a success: Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter, Douglas A-4 Skyhawk.
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Thems is toejam planes bruh
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Looks like an F18 and an italian jet that the name escapes me had an affair! It has it's mothers nose and it's fathers butt!
:salute
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I'm curious: how much does non swept wings limit it's top airspeed? (Or does it not need high airspeed in its intended role?)
(And $3000/hr is considered cheap for fighter operation?! Yikes... what does it cost to run an F35 or Super Hornet?)
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SAM/AA fodder.
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I'm curious: how much does non swept wings limit it's top airspeed? (Or does it not need high airspeed in its intended role?)
(And $3000/hr is considered cheap for fighter operation?! Yikes... what does it cost to run an F35 or Super Hornet?)
$25,000 per hour to fly an F-16....
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SAM/AA fodder.
and what brought you to that conclusion? the fact that it is not laminated with dollars?
You missed the main purpose of this plane.
It makes me think of some other spectacular aircraft that had simplicity and cost efficiency in their mind and become quite a success: Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter, Douglas A-4 Skyhawk.
I know very little about the Scorpion, but the F-5 (+ could-have-been F-20) and A-4 are strong contenders to the title of most under-appreciated plane in history.
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I know very little about the Scorpion
Yes... but I really like its idea and its development progress. Besides, the plane looks very nice :)
the F-5 (+ could-have-been F-20) and A-4 are strong contenders to the title of most under-appreciated plane in history.
I must say that I wanted to open a thread about "most under-appreciated" aircraft... and I wanted to talk about F-5.
I think the USAF/USN fetish to "BIG" planes finally made them miss some spectacular planes. F-5 had a significant commercial success (1000+ airframes) despite the fact that USAF didn't even consider buying it... This plane upgraded still flies in many countries, like Switzerland or Brazil that expects to keep them till 2030.
F-5 could become as significant in history as the Soviet MiG-21 or French Mirage... but USAF missed the opportunity.
A-4 was exceptionally durable and efficient aircraft with very high sortie generation rate. And yes it was much underestimated in USN that preferred "bigger" planes.
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The Northrop F5 was outstanding, I have yet to read a bad thing about it, but I would suggest that there were some brown envelopes heading the direction of Procurement Officers from MD at the time :old:
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I'm curious: how much does non swept wings limit it's top airspeed? (Or does it not need high airspeed in its intended role?)
(And $3000/hr is considered cheap for fighter operation?! Yikes... what does it cost to run an F35 or Super Hornet?)
F-22is $52,800
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F-22is $52,800
Holy Hell :O
Well that's scuppered my idea of renting one over the summer :frown:
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Kids. Let this be a warning. This is what happens when an F/A-18 Hornet and Cessna 172 Skyhawk have unprotected sex. :confused:
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Looks like a fairly nice advanced jet trainer that can double as a light ground attacker in times of war. However, my favorite plane in that role is the beautiful BAe Hawk. The Hawk is faster and can carry more ord, and is in the same price range.
There's just something about those lines that's so right!
(http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/ACpilot1/Snapbucket/44643BE8-orig.jpg)
(http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=166981&stc=1&d=1226649300)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/hawk1.jpg)
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The Northrop F5 was outstanding, I have yet to read a bad thing about it...
The engines were terrible on the A/B/C models. We had several incidents were both engines failed in flight! The E/F models had better engines.
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Looks like a fairly nice advanced jet trainer that can double as a light ground attacker in times of war. However, my favorite plane in that role is the beautiful BAe Hawk. The Hawk is faster and can carry more ord, and is in the same price range.
There's just something about those lines that's so right!
(http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab340/ACpilot1/Snapbucket/44643BE8-orig.jpg)
(http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=166981&stc=1&d=1226649300)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/hawk1.jpg)
That's my company! :D
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Best light attack airplane is either the pilatus or tucano. The fact we fly CAS with f16 is an abomination.
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That's my company! :D
Awesome! :aok
What do you do for BAe, if you're at liberty to say?
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Awesome! :aok
What do you do for BAe, if you're at liberty to say?
I've been working in the Land & Armaments Division for over 9 years now. Our facility used to be BMY (Bowen-McLauglin, York) for decades and then became United Defense Limited Partnership in the 1990s after a merger. We were officially absorbed into the BAE Systems family in the summer of 2005. I am desperately trying to get transferred to Pensacola, Florida to be involved with the T-45A Goshawk program which is essentially the same aircraft you are rightfully in love with in the pics you posted. The Hawk is, indeed, a beautiful aircraft. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-love017.gif)
My current position has me working in the Bradley Family of Infantry Fighting Vehicles remanufacture program as pictured below. This is a shot of our facility in action:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/601951_10200837857178337_1998877228_n.jpg)
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Nice! Always thought the Bradley was a good vehicle for its purpose, despite the infamous bureaucratic debacle of its conception. However, I completely understand why you'd rather be working on the Hawk! It's like an air-dolphin; utterly adorable!
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I do love the Brad. We shoot gunnery again here in a month or so. In fact, next week my guys will actually get a chance to fire some live TOW rounds. As the service life on some old ones end, we somehow managed to get our hands on some. I will upload a pic if I get a chance.
On the whole light fighter thing.... the US is in a pickle when it comes to anticipating "next" fights and what systems will be required. So we pursue things like 5th generation fighters. The trouble is, the wars of the last 30 years have been low intensity (with some exceptions) and 5th generation fighters or attack airplanes are not sound economic options. I would like to see us arm the Texan IIs and use them as low intensity CAS a-la Skyraider. F16 flight hours are expensive. A10 is also pretty expensive.
If you ever landed at Kandahar you would see two F16s sitting at idle on the end of the runway just waiting to be launched, to drop one of two JDAM.... expensive. The Marines have gone so far as to arm C130 (see harvest hawk) in an attempt to have manned long duration CAS. The US really needs a low cost, long legged, manned, low intensity CAS platform.
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Arming C-130s isn't exactly a new idea. The first AC-130 flew in the late '60s.
Drones will fill the low-intensity CAS platform role in the future. 5th gen aircraft is for any potential high-intensity conflict with another nation state. Of course a low intensity conflict can be valuable training for 5th gen platforms.
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What I'd like to know is why people are comparing this Scorpion with the F5?
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I'm guessing it's because the F-5 is just an armed version of the advanced jet trainer T-38. The F-5 being supersonic is much more capable though...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/T-38_051017-F-0000S-002.jpg)
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I do love the Brad. We shoot gunnery again here in a month or so. In fact, next week my guys will actually get a chance to fire some live TOW rounds. As the service life on some old ones end, we somehow managed to get our hands on some. I will upload a pic if I get a chance.
On the whole light fighter thing.... the US is in a pickle when it comes to anticipating "next" fights and what systems will be required. So we pursue things like 5th generation fighters. The trouble is, the wars of the last 30 years have been low intensity (with some exceptions) and 5th generation fighters or attack airplanes are not sound economic options. I would like to see us arm the Texan IIs and use them as low intensity CAS a-la Skyraider. F16 flight hours are expensive. A10 is also pretty expensive.
If you ever landed at Kandahar you would see two F16s sitting at idle on the end of the runway just waiting to be launched, to drop one of two JDAM.... expensive. The Marines have gone so far as to arm C130 (see harvest hawk) in an attempt to have manned long duration CAS. The US really needs a low cost, long legged, manned, low intensity CAS platform.
Since the US government has already made a substantial investment with the T-45A program, I think it would make sense to invest in additional Hawk airframes for the light strike CAS mission you speak of. The logistical aspects of maintaining light strike fleet as well as the naval trainer fleet would be assuaged between the common shared component aspects of fleet maintenance and supply. And I'm not just saying this because I work for one of the two prime Goshawk contractors either ...... oh who the heck and am I kidding? ... Yes I am! (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-transport018.gif)
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Arming C-130s isn't exactly a new idea. The first AC-130 flew in the late '60s.
Drones will fill the low-intensity CAS platform role in the future. 5th gen aircraft is for any potential high-intensity conflict with another nation state. Of course a low intensity conflict can be valuable training for 5th gen platforms.
The idea of purpose built... no. The idea of taking a normal herc and dangling hellfire... yes.
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Conversion... Lockheed builds the C-130, Boeing converts them to AC-130.
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SK60 !
(http://img.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/4622/medium/sk60_p_v_g.jpg)
(http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/1/0/7/1494701.jpg)
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What I'd like to know is why people are comparing this Scorpion with the F5?
Because F-5 was developed as cost effective aircraft with the simplicity in operation in mind. Something that is rarely, if at all, done today (at least successfully). It was mostly developed on private founding of Northrop.
Also it isn't falls to the same category as Scorpion (F-5 is in the same category as MiG-21 or Mirage III) but the general idea behind the development are very-very similar.
...This is what happens when an F/A-18 Hornet and Cessna 172 Skyhawk have unprotected sex. :confused:
:rofl
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thats actually a good looking aircraft
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I'm guessing it's because the F-5 is just an armed version of the advanced jet trainer T-38. The F-5 being supersonic is much more capable though...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/T-38_051017-F-0000S-002.jpg)
Are you saying the T-38 isn't supersonic capable?
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Are you saying the T-38 isn't supersonic capable?
Nope. I could have written that better. I meant the F-5 is supersonic and thus more capable than the Scorpion.
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Because F-5 was developed as cost effective aircraft with the simplicity in operation in mind. Something that is rarely, if at all, done today (at least successfully). It was mostly developed on private founding of Northrop.
Also it isn't falls to the same category as Scorpion (F-5 is in the same category as MiG-21 or Mirage III) but the general idea behind the development are very-very similar.
:rofl
My original statement was kinda jokingly stating the obvious. The two have very little in common. The original F5 was built with low risk due to USAF buying the T38 trainer, 1200 of them. Most of all there was no question the market was there for such a fighter. A supersonic interceptor able to mix it with the best of them and with good ground capabilities. This fit the bill for many, many countries on limited budgets during the fierce and uncertain days of the Cold War.
All the Scorpion seems to offer is modest ground attack capabilities. Even its recce potential has been weakened by the age of UAVs. So that leaves search and rescue since there aint a whole of Cold War Bush wars going to sell its modest ground capability. And there are only so many rich Arabs who want a 2 man jet to zip around the desert in.
It just strikes me as the wrong jet at the wrong time in the wrong world situation.
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Yes, there are so many other aircraft that fit that role already on the market that I can't see how the Scorpion is going to find a market share. Especially with the Yak-130 on the market. At $15 million a piece and a three ton payload on 9 hardpoints it is very hard to beat.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Yakovlev_Yak-130.jpg)
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If so I'd suggest Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Master not Yak-130 as western+NATO compatible variant.
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Yes, the M-346 is a "westernized" Yak-130.
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I do love the Brad. We shoot gunnery again here in a month or so. In fact, next week my guys will actually get a chance to fire some live TOW rounds. As the service life on some old ones end, we somehow managed to get our hands on some. I will upload a pic if I get a chance.
On the whole light fighter thing.... the US is in a pickle when it comes to anticipating "next" fights and what systems will be required. So we pursue things like 5th generation fighters. The trouble is, the wars of the last 30 years have been low intensity (with some exceptions) and 5th generation fighters or attack airplanes are not sound economic options. I would like to see us arm the Texan IIs and use them as low intensity CAS a-la Skyraider. F16 flight hours are expensive. A10 is also pretty expensive.
If you ever landed at Kandahar you would see two F16s sitting at idle on the end of the runway just waiting to be launched, to drop one of two JDAM.... expensive. The Marines have gone so far as to arm C130 (see harvest hawk) in an attempt to have manned long duration CAS. The US really needs a low cost, long legged, manned, low intensity CAS platform.
I " borrowed " a Bradley at camp Manhattan in Iraq 04. Took it for a test drive around the perimeter road on the base. The look on those Cav boys faces when I parked it back in their motorpool was priceless. :bolt:
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Sigh.... always has to be right....
Super sonic is a capability .... how ... for a low cost fighter? It seems to me as soon as you add that requirement to the fray you compound prices or trade capability.
Love the yak 130. There is perhaps the finest rc model I have ever laid eyes on.... yak 130.
I am fighting for a Brad to be coded against my job. As it stands I get a HMMWV. Hard to run a TAC out of a HMMWV.
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Sigh.... always has to be right....
Super sonic is a capability .... how ... for a low cost fighter? It seems to me as soon as you add that requirement to the fray you compound prices or trade capability.
Love the yak 130. There is perhaps the finest rc model I have ever laid eyes on.... yak 130.
I am fighting for a Brad to be coded against my job. As it stands I get a HMMWV. Hard to run a TAC out of a HMMWV.
Fighting for a Brad? Sheesh! It's not like we don't have enough of them. Our yard here is packed with fresh M2A3, M3A3 and M3A3 BFIST resets just waiting to ship. If you have to fight for one then someone above you is just being lazy.
(http://i.usatoday.net/news/_photos/2008/06/26/bradley-topper.jpg)