Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on September 13, 2014, 07:13:49 AM
-
Hey all,
For those verse in both FM2s and BF-109fs what can you see as the advantages and disadvantages in using one over the other?
Not against each other. Just their strengths and weaknesses in comparison to each other.
It just seemed to me that they are of very similar roles and capabilities.
Thanks for your feedback,
Slade :salute
-
It just seemed to me that they are of very similar roles and capabilities.
I'd say they about as different in capabilities as it can get.
For a quick performance comparison, klick here (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109f4&p2=fm2)
-
Thanks that is very useful.
I was thinking they both: have about the same top speed, turn well, OK gun pkg.
What makes them distinct from each other?
Thanks again.
-
Thanks that is very useful.
I was thinking they both: have about the same top speed, turn well, OK gun pkg.
What makes them distinct from each other?
Thanks again.
The 109F is a good bit faster, climbs better and accelerates better.
The FM-2 is a more maneuverable, better ballistics out of the Brownings, doesn't suffer the same hit to its firepower once its primary gun goes dry, dives like a brick, and can soak up damage like a sponge.
-
Also the 109 is a sexy machine. FM2, not so much. :devil
-
Saxman summed it up fairly well. Fm2 can also operate from a carrier, no 109 can.
-
In general, the 109F is a much more capable fighter. In the FM2 you will be straggling to catch opponents unless you come with a lot of alt on them, or catch them during/after a fight with another. Those that you can catch, will be zekes, KI-43s and the super-Brewster, that can turn just about as well or even better than you. At the short ranges at which FM2 engages and the typical tracking shots you will get, the 4x0.5s do a good job and are easier to work with than the 109F single 20mm (the 7.62mm guns are for show). The main food of FM2 is probably spits that assume that they can out-turn anything. They will be wrong.
Perhaps the biggest thing you get in the FM2 that is missing in the 109F is durability. No radiator and very tough, the FM2 can take a hit and keep on fighting. Not very important in a duel, but in a furball this is meaningful. As a bonus, you can roll it from carriers which means you can use it in any fight, sea or land. It also has some JABO capability that the 109 does not have, but it is no F6F or F4U, so do not expect too much.
In the arena, 109F enjoys some "tag anonymity" - it appears as "109" till 1000 yards and everyone will assume that you are 109K or G14 at least. This helps the 109F a lot because 109K and 109F are very different planes in term of how they fight and opponents should treat them differently. The FM2 on the other hand appears as F4F till 1000 yards which makes little difference to your opponent.
-
Bozon, exceedingly well said. :aok
-
The 109 preforms so much better in the vertical than the FM2 it's not even worth measuring. It accelerates much faster as well. As pointed in previous posts, the FM2's guns are one of its strong points.
-
not every fight is dictated by vertical performance
-
not every fight is dictated by vertical performance
When the 109 has a significant advantage in both climb and speed it can really dictate the fight. Also the low speed turning performance is closer than some might think. The 109's turning circle is 10% bigger than the FM2's, but the 109 has a two degree better DPS. So it's really up to pilot skill in a pure flat turn fight.
-
not every fight is dictated by vertical performance
If the 109 pilot is smart... It will be....
-
This is very much like the F4U-1A vs the Spit16. The F4U can gain angles off of the merge, because it can scrub off speed faster on the initial reverse. However, if the Spit goes vertical, the F4U has a big problem.
Likewise with the FM-2 and 109F-4. The 109 doesn't have to reverse immediately, it can extend a bit and then reverse, after the FM-2 has blown his E on the hard reversal. It should also be noted that the 109 will usually carry a lot more E into the engagement, which can quickly be converted to altitude. Once the 109 gets on top of the FM-2, the Wildcat is now on the defensive and the outcome is in doubt.
-
109F vs. FM2:
https://vimeo.com/65754842
Timecode 6:50 :aok
-
Cool video! That FM2 took a lot of hits!
I few times I encountered a P-47 with a BF-109f that had the same feel. Took hitting it over and over. Tried to save my 20mm for perfect setup shots at close range.
I was flying both FM2 and 109f over the weekend. The opportunities that arose seemed to favor the FM2. I hear you all though. The 109f is superior in almost every aspect to the FM2. Not being as good at aiming as some the FM2 seems easier to get meaningful hits in for me.
Great feed back in this thread. Thanks all. :salute
-
The FM2 is a great furballer... It all depends on your playing style. :aok
-
109F baby!
The most all-around balanced fighter aircraft ever built - maybe the Spit9 can come close. Its handling in the post-stall moves, the stability when flying "out-of-airfoil", along with the effective flaps, powerful engine and light weight with the perfect CoG, i cannot see how the Fm2 could have a chance. Plus its a beauty. The only thing it misses is the stabilizing torque effect of the later models - i have never could fly this plane to its full potential.
The Fm2 can dive faster and has a better instanteous turn rate, but thats all about it. A solid plane, but has no chance to perform those aerobatic moves what make the 109 series that fancy.
-
The most all-around balanced fighter aircraft ever built - maybe the Spit9 can come close.
Spit 9 eats it up.
It's a good match for the Spit 5, though.
- oldman
-
Spit 5 doesn't have the climb capabilities for the 109F.
Spit IX v 109F . . . Spit IX if the pilot knows even a little bit of what he is doing.
:rolleyes:
-
Below 20k the 109F-4 is a good match for the Spit IX; superior even in certain areas.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=13&p2=2&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=13&p2=2&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
-
A few of the more finer points of flying an FM-2
1. It's a Spit Killer. The FM can out turn the most common Spitfires in the game and is only outclassed by the likes of the 14 and 16. Spit V's can out turn it, but the performance advantage is mitigated by the Wildcat's durability and guns. It doesn't take much to shred a spitty with the 50 cals.
2. It's hard to hit. The FM is nimble and tiny enough that it is very difficult to get a bead on it, and even if you do, it can shrug off a lot of damage.
3. You can dodge most BnZ attacks if you see them coming. The FM is a very stable plane and you can fly it comfortably while looking out the rear view. If you know where the BnZ'er is, it's very easy to get out of the way of its attacks.
4. If you know what you're doing, it's a great buff killer. If you have the patience to get to altitude, the diving characteristics are such that it is very easy to come down at a steep angle, lock onto a wing root or the forward fuselage and smoke a buff in one pass. Again, your small size makes it very difficult for a gunner to draw a bead on you, and you can take a fair number of hits without problems. The only problem is that faster buffs like the TU-2 and the B-26 may be able to outpace you.
5. You can BnZ anything you can't turn fight. Those pesky Brews, 43's and I16's do not quite have the engine speed of an FM2, so if you switch to BnZ you can easily take them out. The only dedicated turnfighter that you can't do this easily with is the Zeke (unless you go in with an alt advantage), but there's a whole thread out there that argues the pro's and cons of that matchup.
6. Newer players tend to underestimate it. Pilots who are unfamiliar with the Wildcat look at the icon and assume they can take it out simply based on historical data. Those pilots generally end up in the hangar pretty quick.
-
I've always had more success in the fm2 than the 109f4.
Most of the planes I fly are big hulking American radials, so the fm2 feels comfortable. I usually take it out in situations where there's not enough room/time for me to extend out for alt. If you upped it with 50% fuel you'll find it can easily keep up with the super turners. Biggest reason I flew it was to keep the brewboys honest.
Both are good planes though. 1v1 109, takes the prize no doubt, but in a furball the fm2 is more forgiving. The fm2 also makes for a better ground attack platform, with the ability to carry 6 rockets the fm2 makes for a decent de-acker and its large clip of 50 cal ammo makes it good for killing soft skinned vehicles.
-
Below 20k the 109F-4 is a good match for the Spit IX; superior even in certain areas.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=13&p2=2&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=13&p2=2&pw=1>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
The Spit IX's firepower is better than the Bf109F-4, which is a factor in considering which is more balanced. Also, most Spit IX's were LF models which should have the same roll and turn performance as the F.IX we have, but the speed of the LF.Mk VIII or Mk XVI.
Factoring in range, a pretty good argument for all round balance can be made for the Spit VIII and Ki-84 as well.
-
I'm not talking real airplanes here Karnak, but the toon-planes in AH. :) However, firepower clearly goes to the Spit. You need to quote Debrody if you want to argue the finer points of "balance"...
-
not every fight is dictated by vertical performance
Its funny you say that because whenever I encountered you I had to try to dictate the fight in the vertical :)
-
The Spit IX's firepower is better than the Bf109F-4, which is a factor in considering which is more balanced.
Some still prefer the 109's armament for the fact that it's nose mounted. I know I can get at least as many, if not even more, kills out of the single MG 151/20 vs the two Hispanos in the IX, because such an installation is perfect for sniping at a huge range of distances without having to worry about convergence.
But I guess you must be a reasonable good shooter to be able to utilize this.
-
I'm not talking real airplanes here Karnak, but the toon-planes in AH. :) However, firepower clearly goes to the Spit. You need to quote Debrody if you want to argue the finer points of "balance"...
In AH I'd suggest that the Ki-84-Ia and Spitfire LF.Mk VIII are at least as balanced as the Bf109F-4. Probably more so to be honest.
Some still prefer the 109's armament for the fact that it's nose mounted. I know I can get at least as many, if not even more, kills out of the single MG 151/20 vs the two Hispanos in the IX, because such an installation is perfect for sniping at a huge range of distances without having to worry about convergence.
But I guess you must be a reasonable good shooter to be able to utilize this.
Dunno. What I tended to fly had a firehose out of the nose compared to the 109F's garden hose.
-
Dunno. What I tended to fly had a firehose out of the nose compared to the 109F's garden hose.
:headscratch:
-
What I tended to fly had a firehose out of the nose compared to the 109F's garden hose.
:headscratch:
hint: something like a double spitfire, 4 times the ENY, 10 times the coolness fator
;) ;)
-
hint: something like a double spitfire, 4 times the ENY, 10 times the coolness fator
;) ;)
Oh, I'm aware which plane he meant, I just don't get the point of this reply, as I was only replying on the comparison of Spit 9 and 109F firepower. I don't understand what the Mossie has to do with it.
-
the firing time of the 109 is much longer too
-
FM2 ehhh...NOW the F4F is my cup of tea. The 2 extra .50s i think make up for it's lack of engine power.
-
In AH I'd suggest that the Ki-84-Ia and Spitfire LF.Mk VIII are at least as balanced as the Bf109F-4. Probably more so to be honest.
The F-4 is from 1942, the Ki-84 and the Spitfire Mk. VIII are from '44. Considering this, the F-4 is a pretty damn good constuction.
The 109 F, but even more the Ki-84 handle just how i like a fighter plane to fly. The Spitfire series does not - they are better in the raw performance stats though.
-
Actually the 109F-4 is a 1941 aircraft. The first F-4s reached frontline units in June 1941. The first of the F-series is from 1940. Mölders and JG 51 flew the 109F-1 over England from early October 1940, so technically it even took part in the Battle of Britain. In its time it was the best fighter in the world by a significant margin.
-
Btw, I assume the AH 109F-4 in a 1941 model with the derated engine of 1200 PS since it can only do 395 mph. In February 1942 the full power of 1350 PS was made available and the 109F-4 became a 410 mph fighter.
-
Spitfire VIII is a 1943 aircraft.
I will note that the Ki-84 seems to kick the Spit VIII's in the 6 whenever they are set opposite each other in the AvA.
-
I will note that the Ki-84 seems to kick the Spit VIII's in the 6 whenever they are set opposite each other in the AvA.
Yup. Some years ago there was an AvA setup pitting the Spit 8 against the Frank. Two very good squadrons came into the arena most nights that week, switching sides each night. The Frank came out on top every time. Really, it didn't even seem close.
- oldman
-
I will note that the Ki-84 seems to kick the Spit VIII's in the 6 whenever they are set opposite each other in the AvA.
Did not know about that. On paper, the Spitfire should perform better in many vs many (better guns, better handling at medium speeds).
Looks like there are some other factors i dont know about.