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General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Chalenge on September 20, 2014, 03:49:06 PM

Title: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Chalenge on September 20, 2014, 03:49:06 PM
I wish for the Char B1/B1 bis.
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Slade on September 20, 2014, 03:53:32 PM
Britsh Matilda
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Arlo on September 20, 2014, 04:08:17 PM
Should be one per nationality, if such a project is undertaken:

Germany:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/PzKpfwIIIH.Saumur.000a1y8q.jpeg)
Panzer III

Great Britain:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/MatildaII.jpg)
Matilda II

Russia:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Soviet_cavalry_tank_BT-7m.jpg)
BT-7

Italy:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-783-0104-38%2C_Nordafrika%2C_italienische_Panzer_M13-40.jpg)
M13/40

Japan:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Type-97-Shinhoto-ChiHa-Aberdeen.0003dtwq.jpg)
Type 97 ShinHoTo Chi-Ha

U.S.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Stuart_m5a1_cfb_borden_1.JPG)
M-3 Stuart
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Chalenge on September 20, 2014, 04:13:55 PM
At any rate the Matilda is extremely slow, so you must mean Matilda II?

Hey, Arlo. Post up any plan view drawings you have of those tanks. Useful drawings that is. I have the Panzer complete line already, but not the others.
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Arlo on September 20, 2014, 04:28:05 PM
At any rate the Matilda is extremely slow, so you must mean Matilda II?

Hey, Arlo. Post up any plan view drawings you have of those tanks. Useful drawings that is. I have the Panzer complete line already, but not the others.

(http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot-restricted/tanks/tanks-ma-mz/mk_ii_matilda_iii-42720.jpg)

(http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/tanks/ww2-tanks-soviet-union/bt-7-m-1937.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/7Xrp08T.jpg)

(http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/29137/51EB75AA9B7C4F369D422CC617D7B483.jpg)

(http://www.combatreform.org/Image1231.jpg)
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/united-states/vehicle/light-tank/m3-light-tank/m3a3/m3a3-light-tank-stuart-drawing-01.png)
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Chalenge on September 20, 2014, 04:56:18 PM
Excellent!
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: lyric1 on September 20, 2014, 09:24:47 PM
Early war AAA & tank destroyer.

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/40M%20Nimrod/thJ8AXCM7R_zps55b70d87.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/40M%20Nimrod/thJ8AXCM7R_zps55b70d87.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/40M%20Nimrod/nimrod-04big_zps6d584dc6.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/40M%20Nimrod/nimrod-04big_zps6d584dc6.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/40M%20Nimrod/nimrod-05big_zpsd21449e5.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/40M%20Nimrod/nimrod-05big_zpsd21449e5.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/40M%20Nimrod/Nimrod_zps2719bca6.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/40M%20Nimrod/Nimrod_zps2719bca6.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/40M%20Nimrod/Nimrod1_zps529767c3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/40M%20Nimrod/Nimrod1_zps529767c3.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/40M%20Nimrod/nimrod-03big_zpsffbaf82e.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/40M%20Nimrod/nimrod-03big_zpsffbaf82e.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/40M%20Nimrod/Hobbyboss-83829-1-35-Hungarian-40M-Nimrod-Anti-Aircraft-Gun-570x361_zpsea13077f.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/40M%20Nimrod/Hobbyboss-83829-1-35-Hungarian-40M-Nimrod-Anti-Aircraft-Gun-570x361_zpsea13077f.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/40M%20Nimrod/51-9fa88a6920_zps6eb8200d.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/40M%20Nimrod/51-9fa88a6920_zps6eb8200d.jpg.html)

(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/40M%20Nimrod/24-a70ebcbab3_zpsef274b92.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/40M%20Nimrod/24-a70ebcbab3_zpsef274b92.jpg.html)

Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Chalenge on September 21, 2014, 12:26:06 AM
Nice! I wish the scans were a lot bigger (1:1), but I understand beggars can't be choosers.
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Volron on September 21, 2014, 07:53:26 PM
Okay, I have to call it.  It's OBVIOUS that Alro has managed to hack lyric's stuff.  No way anyone would have more stuff about stuff than lyric. :noid


Also: +1 for EW tanks! :rock
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: SmokinLoon on September 21, 2014, 08:59:23 PM
In terms of survivability, and versatility, the Panzer III would be the best bet.

The Matilda was armored enough to shrug off all early war AT guns with exception to the 88mm.  The thing about the Matilda that people need to remember is that was extremely slow, had a pea shooter of a gun adequate for early way and ONLY early war.
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Chalenge on September 21, 2014, 09:24:35 PM
It's not a question of survivability I think. I believe it is more important to get Early War fleshed out, and to move the Mid War T-34/76 to where it belongs.
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: lyric1 on September 21, 2014, 10:19:57 PM
Okay, I have to call it.  It's OBVIOUS that Alro has managed to hack lyric's stuff.  No way anyone would have more stuff about stuff than lyric. :noid


Also: +1 for EW tanks! :rock

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47115217/German-Early-War-Armored-Fighting-Vehicles

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47146991/Russian-Armored-Fighting-Vehicles

http://www.scribd.com/doc/46984917/American-Armored-Fighting-Vehicles

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47051381/British-Armored-Fighting-Vehicles

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47139814/Other-Axis-Allied-Armored-Fighting-Vehicles



Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Lucifer on September 24, 2014, 12:39:13 AM
Matilda armor would make it only killable by bombs... Not sure thats a good idea here.
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Karnak on September 24, 2014, 01:01:04 AM
Matilda armor would make it only killable by bombs... Not sure thats a good idea here.

Really?  What is the armor thickness and slope on the Matilda?
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Chalenge on September 24, 2014, 02:36:14 AM
Not sure, but it is rumored that Rommel personally directed the anti-tank guns against them when the Panzers could not punch through the armor. I think they had a similar problem with the B1-bis. Both the 4th and 7th RTR claimed that their tanks had superior armor to the B1-bis (Battles of Arras 21 May 1940), but I don't know how they figured that out.
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: guncrasher on September 24, 2014, 03:12:24 AM
so was the tiger story i read a few years ago, cant find it anymore but it talks about a tiger 1 coming back with 248 hits and the only problem it had was a transmission problem.


talking about cheating :).



semp
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Fish42 on September 24, 2014, 03:57:40 AM
Really?  What is the armor thickness and slope on the Matilda?

Quote
Like many other British infantry tanks, it was heavily armoured; from 20 mm (0.79 in) at the thinnest it was 78 mm (3.1 in) at the front, much more than most contemporaries. The turret armour was 75 mm (3.0 in) all round,[4] the hull side armour was 65 to 70 millimetres (2.6 to 2.8 in),[nb 3] and the rear armour, protecting the engine to sides and rear, was 55 millimetres (2.2 in).[4] The frontal armour was 75 millimetres (3.0 in), although the nose plates top and bottom were thinner but angled. The turret roof was the same thickness as the hull roof and engine deck: 20 millimetres (0.79 in).[14] The German Panzer III and Panzer IV tanks, of the same period, had 30 to 50 millimetres (1.2 to 2.0 in) thick hull armour. The shape of the nose armour was based on Christie's designs,[16] and came to a narrow point with storage lockers added on either side. The heavy armour of the Matilda's cast turret became legendary; for a time in 1940–41 the Matilda earned the nickname "Queen of the Desert".[17] The sheer thickness of its armour made the tank impervious to the 37 mm and 50 mm calibre anti-tank guns that were then commonly used by the Germans, as well as the 47 mm used by the Italians in North Africa; only the 75 mm PaK 40 anti-tank gun — and as demonstrated as early as the Battle of France on May 21, 1940 from the counterattack at Arras, the 88 mm anti-aircraft gun — could penetrate its armour reliably.

The long 75s in game already will be enough to pen the Matilda. some will need to close the distance to make sure, but the Matilda's 2pdr would need to be close to pen most of them too. Though the LittleJohn would give the Matilda a real punch (though I am not sure if any Matildas even used them).

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=121:british-anti-tank-gun-penetration-tables&catid=49:other-data&Itemid=61

Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Lucifer on September 24, 2014, 05:21:08 AM
Thats absolutely right : Rommel had no available Panzer to knock B1-Bis from Front, and had same problem wit Mathilda on front/side and even rear : slope and armor were extremely well designed for 1940 and by far superior to Pz1/2/3/4 at that time (Rommel used 88s against Mathildas in desert, as only the few Tigers he had could deal with them, among with bombs).

Not sure, but it is rumored that Rommel personally directed the anti-tank guns against them when the Panzers could not punch through the armor. I think they had a similar problem with the B1-bis. Both the 4th and 7th RTR claimed that their tanks had superior armor to the B1-bis (Battles of Arras 21 May 1940), but I don't know how they figured that out.
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: R 105 on September 25, 2014, 12:01:07 PM
Should be one per nationality, if such a project is undertaken:

Germany:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/PzKpfwIIIH.Saumur.000a1y8q.jpeg)
Panzer III

Great Britain:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/MatildaII.jpg)
Matilda II

Russia:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Soviet_cavalry_tank_BT-7m.jpg)
BT-7

Italy:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-783-0104-38%2C_Nordafrika%2C_italienische_Panzer_M13-40.jpg)
M13/40

Japan:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Type-97-Shinhoto-ChiHa-Aberdeen.0003dtwq.jpg)
Type 97 ShinHoTo Chi-Ha

U.S.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Stuart_m5a1_cfb_borden_1.JPG)
M-3 Stuart
:aok
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: JimmyD3 on September 29, 2014, 04:23:52 PM
Are we going to ignore the French Tanks?  :headscratch:
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: 10thmd on September 29, 2014, 06:14:11 PM
Are we going to ignore the French Tanks?  :headscratch:

You do know the CharB1 they are talking about is french right?
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Arlo on September 29, 2014, 06:15:33 PM
You do know the CharB1 they are talking about is french right?

My list ignored it.  :aok
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: 10thmd on September 29, 2014, 06:26:06 PM
Imagine if the French Generals wouldn't have had their heads up their you know what and unleashed the B1's en masse on the Germans.
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Arlo on September 29, 2014, 06:27:39 PM
Imagine if the French Generals wouldn't have had their heads up their you know what and unleashed the B1's en masse on the Germans.

The French generals didn't even conceive anything like a 'blitzkreig.'
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: SmokinLoon on September 30, 2014, 10:10:45 AM
The French generals didn't even conceive anything like a 'blitzkreig.'

There wasn't a military in the world set up for "blitzkrieg", the Germans got lucky a few times. Their supply lines were stretched as far as they could go and very feable at that. If France's government would have unleashed their military WWII may have been very different.  Instead, the French military had no choice to hunker down and be cut off.

Military docrtrine was far different in 1938-40 than it was in 1943-45.   

Oh, and just an FYI: most people do not know that the "combined arms" approach (focused infantry, mechanized infantry, AFV's, and air force), was not originally a German idea.  The Germans were simply the first to put it in to practice. Same goes for the "blitzkrieg" tactics. Do some digging and find out just WHO put the idea to paper and was devising the "by the book" approach to the tactics.   ;)   
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Skyguns MKII on September 30, 2014, 10:19:44 AM
Hotchkiss H35 french tank


In service   1936–1952
Used by   France, Poland, Nazi Germany, Bulgaria, Hungary, Croatia, Yugoslav Partisans, Chetniks, Israel
Wars   World War II; Israeli War of Independence
Production history
Designer   Hotchkiss
Designed   1933
Manufacturer   Hotchkiss et Cie
Produced   September 1936 - June 1940
Number built   ~1200
Variants   Hotchkiss H35 modifié 39
Specifications
Weight   11 metric tonnes
Length   4.22 m (13 ft 10 in)
Width   1.95 m (6 ft 5 in)
Height   2.15 m (7 ft 1 in)
Crew   2
Armour   40 mm turret, 34 mm hull
Main
armament

37 mm SA 18 gun
Secondary
armament

7.5 mm Reibel machine gun
Engine   six-cylinder 3480 cc
78 hp
Power/weight   7.1 hp/t
Suspension   horizontal helical springs
Fuel capacity   180 litres
Operational
range

129 km (80 mi)
Speed   28 km/h (17 mph)
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Zerstorer on September 30, 2014, 12:14:42 PM
(http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/vehicles/A7V-Tank/IMAGES/A7V-tank-stuck-in-mud.jpg)

(http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/world-war-i-german-tank-everett.jpg)

They might be a bit too early war....but they would be fun!   :D
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: JimmyD3 on September 30, 2014, 02:33:55 PM
You do know the CharB1 they are talking about is french right?

No I did not. :o
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Arlo on September 30, 2014, 03:21:56 PM
There wasn't a military in the world set up for "blitzkrieg", the Germans got lucky a few times. Their supply lines were stretched as far as they could go and very feable at that. If France's government would have unleashed their military WWII may have been very different.  Instead, the French military had no choice to hunker down and be cut off.

Military docrtrine was far different in 1938-40 than it was in 1943-45.   

Oh, and just an FYI: most people do not know that the "combined arms" approach (focused infantry, mechanized infantry, AFV's, and air force), was not originally a German idea.  The Germans were simply the first to put it in to practice. Same goes for the "blitzkrieg" tactics. Do some digging and find out just WHO put the idea to paper and was devising the "by the book" approach to the tactics.   ;)   

Please tell me you're not trying to prove me wrong.  :)
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Oldman731 on September 30, 2014, 04:07:09 PM
Please tell me you're not trying to prove me wrong. 


I think he's talking about Fuller, deGaulle and Guderian between the wars. 

Of course, they weren't generals then, so you aren't wrong!

- oldman
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Arlo on September 30, 2014, 04:35:46 PM

I think he's talking about Fuller, deGaulle and Guderian between the wars. 

Of course, they weren't generals then, so you aren't wrong!

- oldman

Whew. That's good to hear.
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Lucifer on October 01, 2014, 07:37:24 AM
Wrong, De Gaulle (who was colonel at this time) wrote a book in 1937 or such about using massive armor attacks with air support to break an enemy front.

The French generals didn't even conceive anything like a 'blitzkreig.'
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Rob52240 on October 01, 2014, 07:58:42 AM
A slow tank would be fine for defensive use.
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: Arlo on October 01, 2014, 07:59:41 AM
Wrong, De Gaulle (who was colonel at this time) wrote a book in 1937 or such about using massive armor attacks with air support to break an enemy front.


Hey, already told I was right since D was a Colonel. So there. :D
Title: Re: We need a true early war tank
Post by: save on October 01, 2014, 08:05:43 AM
IRL cutting fuel / supply was  as effective as killing the tank itself, if you could keep out of range , that is.