Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mthrockmor on September 27, 2014, 01:34:45 PM
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http://www.shotmade.com/new-video-tracking-moving-targets-and-extreme-accuracy/
It is turning into a video game with cheats.
Boo
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I'm sure when magnified optics where introduced some people had the same sentiment.
Technology marches on, it's neither good nor bad, it just is. What people do with it is what makes the difference.
99% of shooters will not be able to afford Tracking Point's products for the foreseeable future anyway.
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99% of shooters will not be able to afford Tracking Point's products for the foreseeable future anyway.
No interest. You either know how to shoot or you dont and you can buy all the gadgets you want. Nothing will change that.
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No interest. You either know how to shoot or you dont and you can buy all the gadgets you want. Nothing will change that.
Well said. These types of gadgets make me laugh and I think of how many fat arses will hop out of their heated enclosures, pull up to shoot, and be fogged out. That actually makes me smile. My Dad made me shoot iron sights until I was 14. He also was adamant about game not running off (and not being found) after I shot it during that period. I never shamed myself and allowed it to happen. I think I am a better marksman to this day because of that.
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Nor do I understand how the thing compensates for wind gusts, elevation angles and gravity, different barrel lengths, bullet types/weights/powder loads and weights. Even such things as brass types and primer seats. All have impact on ballistic performance, most of all velocity and MOA, at extreme ranges. 350, 400 yrds is a chip shot for a decent rifleman on a rest that knows his rifle and load. I can make a 350 yrd shot all day long with a .300/.338 mag and my reloads. Heck even a .270 or '06. Even 400 yrds isnt that hard. But 700 to 1000 ? Ive seen nothing but mistakes made in the hunting field on 600 yrd+ shots on big game and this from guys who swore they practiced long at the range and had a laser. And then you have to good ole failures that have nothing to do with the load,rifle,or scope. Like trigger control and wind doping.
If there is a way to dial this thingamajig into a particular rifle/load they dont explain how. It looks like a fun toy if your rich and want to throw your hunting money away on chasing pigs around in a chopper, "even then most of those shots in the video could have been made with standard sights". Calculating lead should be no problem with a 5.56mm cause you just dont need much at 200 yrds. Im just an average rifleman and I can hit center on a Silh at 300 yrds with an A1 or a Garand all day long with a peep sight. Why? Cause Im military trained and/or a rifleman that learned the basics and built them into muscle memory.
Realistically I can see it only being useful when paired with a particular rifle and a particular load. Maybe thats what they mean to do, to sell the entire package.
Which leads me to believe there will be no hurry for the military to adopt it. It may have some app's with the .50 BMG systems, but ya know, those guys are pretty darn good with standard gear and a spotter. Military shooters are pretty anal but a lot of stuff and I surely dont see them handing the trigger pull over to a thingamajig. Eventually there will be something like it as standard but not in out lifetimes. Back in the '70s who could have foreseen dot scopes being standard issue right?
As for hunting big game? I hope I never see one out there. Pigs and varmints is one thing but theres enough slob hunting already without a sci-fi scope.
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Shooting from a helo isn't much of a challenge, especially if the helo is pacing the target. The Coasties train for this every day, and they don't have Tracking-Point lead compensating sights.
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Nothing beats learning to shoot with Iron Sights.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4!!!!!!
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Aimbots! :mad:
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #14
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No interest. You either know how to shoot or you dont and you can buy all the gadgets you want. Nothing will change that.
that reminds me of the quote from the original "dawn of the dead" movie:
"it's a shame that the only sucker that can miss with this thing is the one that has enough dough to buy it".
semp
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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Oldskool65 why not just be happy you live in the safest place on earth and thank your keepers. Don't belittle others way of life that you could never understand or appreciate until you need them again. The only thing you will achieve is getting this thread locked and you will have to troll somewhere else anyway.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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one thing is for sure. it's not the availability of arms tat is the problem it's the people's attitude that is the problem.
semp
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See Rule #4
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:aok
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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Calm down to a frenzy, I am quite comfortable living in the UK and not owning a firearm. I have however used firearms since I was a teenager, I have used firearms in combat and I can guarantee you there is no shortage of privately owned weapons in the UK, all in the hands of criminals. Are US firearms laws too lax? Sure they are. Would I own and carry in Uk if I was allowed? Damn right :old:
Danny - I like your stance on many things - knew that right from the start on the old blueberry board. Thanks for the candor.
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See Rule #2
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Guns are a useful tool and gun prohibitions can kill too.
It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. :aok
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It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. :aok
+1
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WTF does any of this have to do with the topic? Why does every decent conversation regarding the shooting sports get deflected into a gun control debate and why do we allow it by responding to the guy trying to ruin the thread?
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See Rule #4
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Back on subject it is a neat scope of it works half as well as they show
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You can have one for the low bargain price of only $23,000
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=444792918
(http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af183/DarcOpsArmory/XS3/IMG_9221_zpsc50db3f7.jpg)
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I like the retical although I think they need to be a tad thinner.
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I like the retical although I think they need to be a tad thinner.
You don't really need to see your target, it will auto fire once your lead and angle is correct.
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For those of you who have a problem with guns, please stay out of this thread. All you can do is get yourself banned from the board by violating the posting rules.
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You don't really need to see your target, it will auto fire once your lead and angle is correct.
Yep. I just like the retical. They can keep everything else.
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With this thing, why even bother carrying it around? This could be the beginning of the next generation of hunting technology.
This thing clearly doesn't need to be carried around by a person. They should just mount it on some kind of silent running RC ATV and send it out to the desired location. When something pops up on infrared, have it notify the hunter via SMS and they can call up the video feed on their smart phone and decide to take the shot or not. Hell, with the image recognition it seems to have, it could probably be tweaked to identify game and only send the message if it's the correct species.
With proper software, you could hunt from the convenience of your cubicle. Wouldn't even need to take time off work.
What a world we live in.
(Sort of want, but not for the price... ;))
Wiley.
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Interesting technology.
Why does it do a tag then fire when your aim point meets the tag point rather then just fire when placing the tag in the first place? That part, I don't understand well.
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Interesting technology.
Why does it do a tag then fire when your aim point meets the tag point rather then just fire when placing the tag in the first place? That part, I don't understand well.
I would assume so you are sure you're happy with your placement, otherwise you'd cancel the shot.
Wiley.
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As Rich first said, this system really only automates the ranging function, eliminating the need to dial in your own come ups on the turret of your optics. It doesn't do anything for all the other factors, such as the elevation of the rifle-->target, the altitude and related effects such as temperature and pressure, the direction you're shooting (if it's east or west the earth's movement will somewhat affect shot placement at longer ranges such as 1500+m/y), and most importantly, the wind. Windage is the most important and difficult thing to master IMO with long range, even medium range shooting. Windage can be affected by either the wind, the movement of the target, or a combination of both. This system being discussed only really makes things easier if you're shooting at stationary targets on calm days IMO.
Now, I do think this idea is an incremental step in forward progression of long range shooting technology. I know from guys I worked with at Sigarms and other guys I met through my best friend, Sgt Brent Clearman, who before being killed had instructed at the USMC Sniper School as well as the mountain high angle shooting school, that the eventual sniper system that is wanted will hopefully be as simple as being a gunner in an M1 tank.
The M1 gunner is often called the simplest and most lethal weapon system in the military. The reason is, (simplified somewhat), that all the gunner really has to do is see the target, put his sight on it, press one button to get the range, then the computers capture a pile of info from a bunch of sensors in a few milliseconds, and then he can just press the trigger. This is what is wanted at the evolutionary end of a soldiers long range rifle system by the military minds at places like Darpa and the like.
A rifle that has the ability to sense the alt, pressure, air density, elevation, range to target, and windage/movement of the target. All at the press of a button, which will give a solution in the reticule that the shooter can just overlap with his xhair, and then press the trigger. Sort of an M1 Tank gun/fire control computer miniaturized into a system that will fit on a rifle. I've already seen (at least 5 years ago) the telescoping wind sensing instrument designed to measure windspeed and direction for this type of thing, it has four detached square sides sensors at the top of an expanding antenna sort of deal, and uses sound to dope the wind. This is the ultimate simplest solution to mass producing long range capability without taking months, even years of very specialized training and experience. Until a laser or projected/directed energy weapon, shoulder supported railguns, or guided rifle munitions come online, this is quite possibly what the future will bring so far as long range shooting. It's either eliminate gravity and wind (laser/etc), be so fast that they aren't a factor within visual range of potential target (railgun), guide the current rounds affected by all these factors with some sort of internal stabilization system and laser guidance (guided bullets), OR, make the current bullet and rifle technology so simple and fast vis a vis the optics and firing solutions that anyone can pretty much do it. IMO that's the future that is coming, one, some, maybe even all of these things, probably in our lifetime as well.
This new hunting system is just a baby step along that path, an incomplete yet positive progression of this idea.
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Danny - I like your stance on many things - knew that right from the start on the old blueberry board. Thanks for the candor.
:salute
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snip
Their marketing sure didn't give the same picture like you just painted.
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As Rich first said, this system really only automates the ranging function, eliminating the need to dial in your own come ups on the turret of your optics.
And again I have to ask, if thats all it does then what is its value? Its already easy to buy a cheap laser, tho it may take more time, range your target, and from there glance at your note and guestimate holdover. Even easier if you have a range reticule or a dial up scope. Even then they dont seem to say how one would input data for different loads, different barrel lengths, and let alone, different calibers and rounds. Maybe I missed something and it comes with USB and software that allows the transfer of such data but if it doesnt then I only think it can be used as an all inclusive unit. Scope, rifle,load, and one only.
I dont like shooting long on game for several reasons. #1 I just dont need to make something bleed enough to take such shots. #2 I recognize what can go wrong under field conditions to bullets at extreme ranges and feel such shots on big game are unethical and unnecessary. The longest I ever attempted was a ,lasered after, 475 yrd shot on a Bull Elk I had already hit hard at 350. He was on an elevated trail we were sitting on cause we knew Elk were using it to cross properties and I hit him a little far back getting liver and some lung. He was dead on his feet but we didnt want him crossing back to the other property. I knew the drop and guessed the wind and hit him with a 225 grn A-frame right where neck meets shoulder. Rolling him down the hill. Were he 600 yrds maybe different story.
That same hunt two other parties cripped Elk, one a so called "expert long shooter", and the other just an idiot who was terrified by his first rifle.
One day there will be such a device carried by military shooters but i think it will be a long time. Old Marines still grumble about the AR system and the services dont like change when it comes to rifles and training. But the march of technology is relentless.
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If you go and watch their youtube videos Ripley, you'll plainly see that you have to enter your own estimate of the wind. I'll say again, once you have an accurate range, the windage is the most difficult problem to solve with any long range shooting solution. The other things like elevation, temp, etc are very minor compared to range and windage, these two are the primary things that HAVE to have a high level of precision.
If you wish, give them a call, ask how their product performs with new shooters who are buying it that have no real long range shooting experience and training, on windy days, with full value winds in the 15mph and greater range. Their system again ONLY simplifies the range, elevation, temp/pressure parts of the equation with technology. They don't have a wind sensor built in, and even if they did, due to the changing nature of wind direction and speed on windy days, it's as much art as it is science. Their videos show shots on very calm days. Look at the landscape around the targets before they are struck in all their videos - calm winds. Yet they purposefully edit in pictures of the shooters back at their position in gusty conditions. They've been called out on this from various shooting magazines and review sites.
Also regarding the bbl length, load and such Rich, their programs are set up with certain bbl length and loads already pre configured. They currently offer 3 different calibers, you can't pick anything else at the moment. That's how they are doing if, if that answers your question at all - 3 calibers with a single load of their own, already with known values entered into their system.
You STILL have to dope the wind yourself, and enter the ESTIMATED value(s) into the fire control system. I mistake of just 5 mph on a 1000 yard shot on your estimate, or making the mistake of calling it a full value instead of a quarter value wind, will result in misses, by distance that will surprise shooters who don't do much long range shooting. Again, Tracking Point, as I said, is an incremental step up the ladder to simplifying long range shooting for the average shooter, but it only simplifies PARTS of the whole solution required to make long range shots connect.
Example, Ripley, you can use that Tracking Point rifle on an unknown distance range on a windy day, and I'll shoot a similar caliber (300 win mag or whatever) in a typical rifle with decent optics, and use the regular tools of wind and range estimation already in use for quite a while. If you're an average or untrained long range shooter, you'll have zero chance of out shooting somebody who is with it. None.
Every review you'll read about Tracking Point will say the following - this is taken from one. For instance, the shooter still has to correctly gauge the wind and manually input that into the scope.
See, the laser rangefinder that I'll use isn't integral to my optics, like it is with Tracking Point. So, having pre-ranged my rifle with the loads I'm using, I already know what M.O.A. settings to click into my optics for various ranges, so once I get my range from either a laser or optical (mil dot) range finder, or plain old estimation, I then adjust my optic. Then I account for elevation of the target (pretty easy to do), any massive changes in environment (I usually shoot in the same area, again not difficult either way), and THEN do the hardest part - estimate the wind direction and speed, as well as take into account if my target it's in motion (hopefully constant consistent, otherwise wait for constant motion or complete stop in motion). The point is, I still have to enter the wind on BOTH the older tech rifle AND the Tracking Point system. The higher the wind, and the fuller it's value, the more likely there will be descrepency between my estimate, and the real value. Thus, the likelihood if missing due to the wind is the SAME with both Tracking Point and a Regular scoped rifle.
Tracking Point does take the elevation reading itself and adjust for it automatically, which again isn't a real difficult part of the solution anyway, but it does help new shooters a bit I suppose. It also doesn't "fire" when the trigger is pressed, which does help new shooters a lot who still flinch or improperly press their trigger, as it is a total surprise when the rifle fires, as it will only do so when it thinks everything is in alignment, and the trigger has been held down, not just when the trigger is pressed. It does do PART of that "dream" M1 tank solution that I mentioned, and if someday they figure out how to do the wind accurately, they'll be well on their way to this. It just doesn't do that most difficult part AT ALL now.
If you go to a lot of the long range and military shooting sites that have reviewed it, you'll get the same story I've "painted" here. One example -
The first thing that they’re working on is wind and moving targets for the existing rifle setup. Getting the ballistics right for the drop is good, but having something that is completely idiot proof for even wind calls is high on their list. As for moving targets, they have had some incredible interest from the military and law enforcement for these systems but they need to be able to hit moving targets before those customers are willing to drop the coin on some of these rifles.
It's a fantastic system for untrained long range shooters, and even simplifies and speeds up the process for advanced shooters in many regards. It's just that vs moving targets, or on windy days, or combining both these things, the system isn't capable of helping a new shooter out with these things, which happen to be next to range the most important and difficult to adjust your long range solution for.
If I want to take an untrained long range shooter out and let them shoot at long range stationary stuff without any knowledge about how long range shooting works, yes, this system will let them get hits consistently on calm days at whatever they shoot at. If I want to use it in long range competitions where there is often wind or moving targets, or use it on the battlefield, it really isn't going to allow that same untrained and unknowledgeable person get those same hits.
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I think it would be most interesting from a survivalist perspective. You've got 50 yrs to live post-apocalypse, and if you have surviving children they'll inherit everything you don't waste. 5000 rds of ammo and a gun that hits pretty much every shot would go quite a ways towards ensuring that you and your group/family at the very least won't starve while you re-learn basic primitive hunter/gatherer skills.
In the hands of a criminal it could be messy, but I'm not sure it would really be that much more effective than just some guy who's practiced a lot or who picks a soft target to go after.
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I think it would be most interesting from a survivalist perspective. You've got 50 yrs to live post-apocalypse, and if you have surviving children they'll inherit everything you don't waste. 5000 rds of ammo and a gun that hits pretty much every shot would go quite a ways towards ensuring that you and your group/family at the very least won't starve while you re-learn basic primitive hunter/gatherer skills.
In the hands of a criminal it could be messy, but I'm not sure it would really be that much more effective than just some guy who's practiced a lot or who picks a soft target to go after.
Lol I never forgot them. If things go to pot I'll pass on the superwidgetrifle and gladly grab a M1 Garand. To many things can go wrong with technology which is why I'll stick with "the greatest battle implement ever devised".
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Lol I never forgot them. If things go to pot I'll pass on the superwidgetrifle and gladly grab a M1 Garand. To many things can go wrong with technology which is why I'll stick with "the greatest battle implement ever devised".
The FN SLR? :old:
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The FN SLR? :old:
FN Doesn't make cameras!
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FN Doesn't make cameras!
there are probably only a handful of people on this board that will get that.
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Good point Silver.
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I can't figure out why SLR cameras aren't made in both Metric and Inch pattern.
I think you would be surprised how many would get the Self loading rifle/SLR Camera pun there.
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If this initiative by DARPA is real....................
http://www.gizmag.com/darpa-sniper-bullet-change-path/32952/
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As I've been saying regarding Darpa and other such places of small arms technology research Bustr, that sort of thing has been in the design phase since the 90s. They tested .50 cal guided bullets, using small actuators inside the round and a tiny laser seeker in the nose probably 15 years ago now. I'm pretty certain that the classified stuff is well beyond that. Again, it's either make a weapon system capable enough to deliver "dumb" rounds with extreme precision in a faster/simpler way, OR, make the projectile the "smart" part of the system, and guide it to the target. Perhaps even a combination of both.
Either way, it's the future, and it's coming. I do agree w/Rich and others that especially long range marksmen, and even regular rifleman/soldiers should still be taught to shoot properly the "analogue" way. However, this sort of technology has the goal of making average untrained long range marksmen have a capability close to what a sniper currently has, just your average soldiers so far as shooting ability goes, have the capability to engage and hit targets at far, far longer ranges than they currently can, all with the press of a button for a computerized fire control solution, and a press of the trigger, which will be more like a permissible action link deal, than a current trigger (operating in a close to mid range mode, such a weapon would obviously have a different fire control mode). Such tech can make the process of engagement faster for long range marksmen/snipers as well, and help push the limits of their current range caps out further and further, which is obviously the goal - faster acquisition and engagement times, and longer range brackets.
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Sight picture, sight alignment, breath control, trigger squeeze...anything else is a guess.
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The ballistic computers on modern tanks like the M1 Abrams are amazing. Even a complete noob like Richard Hammond can hit a target on the first shot 3/4 times with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnFY4OFHZZc