Author Topic: Marksmanship made easy  (Read 2133 times)

Offline Gman

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2014, 11:29:03 PM »
As Rich first said, this system really only automates the ranging function, eliminating the need to dial in your own come ups on the turret of your optics.  It doesn't do anything for all the other factors, such as the elevation of the rifle-->target, the altitude and related effects such as temperature and pressure, the direction you're shooting (if it's east or west the earth's movement will somewhat affect shot placement at longer ranges such as 1500+m/y), and most importantly, the wind.  Windage is the most important and difficult thing to master IMO with long range, even medium range shooting.  Windage can be affected by either the wind, the movement of the target, or a combination of both.  This system being discussed only really makes things easier if you're shooting at stationary targets on calm days IMO.

Now, I do think this idea is an incremental step in forward progression of long range shooting technology.  I know from guys I worked with at Sigarms and other guys I met through my best friend, Sgt Brent Clearman, who before being killed had instructed at the USMC Sniper School as well as the mountain high angle shooting school, that the eventual sniper system that is wanted will hopefully be as simple as being a gunner in an M1 tank.

The M1 gunner is often called the simplest and most lethal weapon system in the military.  The reason is, (simplified somewhat), that all the gunner really has to do is see the target, put his sight on it, press one button to get the range, then the computers capture a pile of info from a bunch of sensors in a few milliseconds, and then he can just press the trigger.  This is what is wanted at the evolutionary end of a soldiers long range rifle system by the military minds at places like Darpa and the like.

A rifle that has the ability to sense the alt, pressure, air density, elevation, range to target, and windage/movement of the target.  All at the press of a button, which will give a solution in the reticule that the shooter can just overlap with his xhair, and then press the trigger.  Sort of an M1 Tank gun/fire control computer miniaturized into a system that will fit on a rifle.   I've already seen (at least 5 years ago) the telescoping wind sensing instrument designed to measure windspeed and direction for this type of thing, it has four detached square sides sensors at the top of an expanding antenna sort of deal, and uses sound to dope the wind.  This is the ultimate simplest solution to mass producing long range capability without taking months, even years of very specialized training and experience.  Until a laser or projected/directed energy weapon, shoulder supported railguns, or guided rifle munitions come online, this is quite possibly what the future will bring so far as long range shooting.  It's either eliminate gravity and wind (laser/etc), be so fast that they aren't a factor within visual range of potential target (railgun), guide the current rounds affected by all these factors with some sort of internal stabilization system and laser guidance (guided bullets), OR, make the current bullet and rifle technology so simple and fast vis a vis the optics and firing solutions that anyone can pretty much do it.  IMO that's the future that is coming, one, some, maybe even all of these things, probably in our lifetime as well.

This new hunting system is just a baby step along that path, an incomplete yet positive progression of this idea.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 11:43:31 PM by Gman »

Offline danny76

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2014, 12:50:33 AM »
Danny - I like your stance on many things -  knew that right from the start on the old blueberry board.  Thanks for the candor.

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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2014, 04:38:32 AM »
snip

Their marketing sure didn't give the same picture like you just painted.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2014, 10:38:13 AM »
Quote
As Rich first said, this system really only automates the ranging function, eliminating the need to dial in your own come ups on the turret of your optics.

And again I have to ask, if thats all it does then what is its value? Its already easy to buy a cheap laser, tho it may take more time, range your target, and from there glance at your note and guestimate holdover. Even easier if you have a range reticule or a dial up scope. Even then they dont seem to say how one would input data for different loads, different barrel lengths, and let alone, different calibers and rounds. Maybe I missed something and it comes with USB and software that allows the transfer of such data but if it doesnt then I only think it can be used as an all inclusive unit. Scope, rifle,load, and one only.

I dont like shooting long on game for several reasons. #1 I just dont need to make something bleed enough to take such shots. #2 I recognize what can go wrong under field conditions to bullets at extreme ranges and feel such shots on big game are unethical and unnecessary. The longest I ever attempted was a ,lasered after, 475 yrd shot on a Bull Elk I had already hit hard at 350. He was on an elevated trail we were sitting on cause we knew Elk were using it to cross properties and I hit him a little far back getting liver and some lung. He was dead on his feet but we didnt want him crossing back to the other property. I knew the drop and guessed the wind and hit him with a 225 grn A-frame right where neck meets shoulder. Rolling him down the hill. Were he 600 yrds maybe different story.

That same hunt two other parties cripped Elk, one a so called "expert long shooter", and the other just an idiot who was terrified by his first rifle.

One day there will be such a device carried by military shooters but i think it will be a long time. Old Marines still grumble about the AR system and the services dont like change when it comes to rifles and training. But the march of technology is relentless.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Gman

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2014, 05:59:44 PM »
If you go and watch their youtube videos Ripley, you'll plainly see that you have to enter your own estimate of the wind.  I'll say again, once you have an accurate range, the windage is the most difficult problem to solve with any long range shooting solution.  The other things like elevation, temp, etc are very minor compared to range and windage, these two are the primary things that HAVE to have a high level of precision.  

If you wish, give them a call, ask how their product performs with new shooters who are buying it that have no real long range shooting experience and training, on windy days, with full value winds in the 15mph and greater range.  Their system again ONLY simplifies the range, elevation, temp/pressure parts of the equation with technology.  They don't have a wind sensor built in, and even if they did, due to the changing nature of wind direction and speed on windy days, it's as much art as it is science.  Their videos show shots on very calm days.  Look at the landscape around the targets before they are struck in all their videos - calm winds.  Yet they purposefully edit in pictures of the shooters back at their position in gusty conditions.  They've been called out on this from various shooting magazines and review sites.

Also regarding the bbl length, load and such Rich, their programs are set up with certain bbl length and loads already pre configured.  They currently offer 3 different calibers, you can't pick anything else at the moment. That's how they are doing if, if that answers your question at all - 3 calibers with a single load of their own, already with known values entered into their system.

You STILL have to dope the wind yourself, and enter the ESTIMATED value(s) into the fire control system.  I mistake of just 5 mph on a 1000 yard shot on your estimate, or making the mistake of calling it a full value instead of a quarter value wind, will result in misses, by distance that will surprise shooters who don't do much long range shooting.  Again, Tracking Point, as I said, is an incremental step up the ladder to simplifying long range shooting for the average shooter, but it only simplifies PARTS of the whole solution required to make long range shots connect.  

Example, Ripley, you can use that Tracking Point rifle on an unknown distance range on a windy day, and I'll shoot a similar caliber (300 win mag or whatever) in a typical rifle with decent optics, and use the regular tools of wind and range estimation already in use for quite a while.  If you're an average or untrained long range shooter, you'll have zero chance of out shooting somebody who is with it.  None.

Every review you'll read about Tracking Point will say the following - this is taken from one.
Quote
For instance, the shooter still has to correctly gauge the wind and manually input that into the scope.
 See, the laser rangefinder that I'll use isn't integral to my optics, like it is with Tracking Point.  So, having pre-ranged my rifle with the loads I'm using, I already know what M.O.A. settings to click into my optics for various ranges, so once I get my range from either a laser or optical (mil dot) range finder, or plain old estimation, I then adjust my optic.  Then I account for elevation of the target (pretty easy to do), any massive changes in environment (I usually shoot in the same area, again not difficult either way), and THEN do the hardest part - estimate the wind direction and speed, as well as take into account if my target it's in motion (hopefully constant consistent, otherwise wait for constant motion or complete stop in motion).  The point is, I still have to enter the wind on BOTH the older tech rifle AND the Tracking Point system.  The higher the wind, and the fuller it's value, the more likely there will be descrepency between my estimate, and the real value.  Thus, the likelihood if missing due to the wind is the SAME with both Tracking Point and a Regular scoped rifle.  

Tracking Point does take the elevation reading itself and adjust for it automatically, which again isn't a real difficult part of the solution anyway, but it does help new shooters a bit I suppose.  It also doesn't "fire" when the trigger is pressed, which does help new shooters a lot who still flinch or improperly press their trigger, as it is a total surprise when the rifle fires, as it will only do so when it thinks everything is in alignment, and the trigger has been held down, not just when the trigger is pressed.  It does do PART of that "dream" M1 tank solution that I mentioned, and if someday they figure out how to do the wind accurately, they'll be well on their way to this.  It just doesn't do that most difficult part AT ALL now.  

If you go to a lot of the long range and military shooting sites that have reviewed it, you'll get the same story I've "painted" here.  One example -

Quote
The first thing that they’re working on is wind and moving targets for the existing rifle setup. Getting the ballistics right for the drop is good, but having something that is completely idiot proof for even wind calls is high on their list. As for moving targets, they have had some incredible interest from the military and law enforcement for these systems but they need to be able to hit moving targets before those customers are willing to drop the coin on some of these rifles.

It's a fantastic system for untrained long range shooters, and even simplifies and speeds up the process for advanced shooters in many regards.  It's just that vs moving targets, or on windy days, or combining both these things, the system isn't capable of helping a new shooter out with these things, which happen to be next to range the most important and difficult to adjust your long range solution for.

If I want to take an untrained long range shooter out and let them shoot at long range stationary stuff without any knowledge about how long range shooting works, yes, this system will let them get hits consistently on calm days at whatever they shoot at.  If I want to use it in long range competitions where there is often wind or moving targets, or use it on the battlefield, it really isn't going to allow that same untrained and unknowledgeable person get those same hits.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 06:51:23 PM by Gman »

Offline eagl

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2014, 01:19:34 AM »
I think it would be most interesting from a survivalist perspective.  You've got 50 yrs to live post-apocalypse, and if you have surviving children they'll inherit everything you don't waste.  5000 rds of ammo and a gun that hits pretty much every shot would go quite a ways towards ensuring that you and your group/family at the very least won't starve while you re-learn basic primitive hunter/gatherer skills.

In the hands of a criminal it could be messy, but I'm not sure it would really be that much more effective than just some guy who's practiced a lot or who picks a soft target to go after.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2014, 10:05:34 PM »
I think it would be most interesting from a survivalist perspective.  You've got 50 yrs to live post-apocalypse, and if you have surviving children they'll inherit everything you don't waste.  5000 rds of ammo and a gun that hits pretty much every shot would go quite a ways towards ensuring that you and your group/family at the very least won't starve while you re-learn basic primitive hunter/gatherer skills.

In the hands of a criminal it could be messy, but I'm not sure it would really be that much more effective than just some guy who's practiced a lot or who picks a soft target to go after.

Lol I never forgot them. If things go to pot I'll pass on the superwidgetrifle and gladly grab a M1 Garand. To many things can go wrong with technology which is why I'll stick with "the greatest battle implement ever devised".
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Offline danny76

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2014, 10:07:53 PM »
Lol I never forgot them. If things go to pot I'll pass on the superwidgetrifle and gladly grab a M1 Garand. To many things can go wrong with technology which is why I'll stick with "the greatest battle implement ever devised".

The FN SLR? :old:
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Offline Rob52240

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2014, 11:45:10 AM »
The FN SLR? :old:

FN Doesn't make cameras!

If I had a gun with 3 bullets and I was locked in a room with Bin Laden, Hitler, Saddam and Zipp...  I would shoot Zipp 3 times.

Offline SilverZ06

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2014, 11:50:07 AM »
FN Doesn't make cameras!



there are probably only a handful of people on this board that will get that.

Offline Rob52240

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2014, 11:54:16 AM »
Good point Silver.
If I had a gun with 3 bullets and I was locked in a room with Bin Laden, Hitler, Saddam and Zipp...  I would shoot Zipp 3 times.

Offline Gman

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #56 on: October 03, 2014, 01:58:39 PM »
I can't figure out why SLR cameras aren't made in both Metric and Inch pattern.













I think you would be surprised how many would get the Self loading rifle/SLR Camera pun there. 

« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 02:50:39 PM by Gman »

Offline bustr

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #57 on: October 03, 2014, 02:20:19 PM »
If this initiative by DARPA is real....................

http://www.gizmag.com/darpa-sniper-bullet-change-path/32952/
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Gman

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #58 on: October 03, 2014, 02:44:40 PM »
As I've been saying regarding Darpa and other such places of small arms technology research Bustr, that sort of thing has been in the design phase since the 90s.  They tested .50 cal guided bullets, using small actuators inside the round and a tiny laser seeker in the nose probably 15 years ago now.  I'm pretty certain that the classified stuff is well beyond that.  Again, it's either make a weapon system capable enough to deliver "dumb" rounds with extreme precision in a faster/simpler way, OR, make the projectile the "smart" part of the system, and guide it to the target.  Perhaps even a combination of both.

Either way, it's the future, and it's coming. I do agree w/Rich and others that especially long range marksmen, and even regular rifleman/soldiers  should still be taught to shoot properly the "analogue" way.  However,  this sort of technology has the goal of making average untrained long range marksmen have a capability close to what a sniper currently has, just your average soldiers so far as shooting ability goes, have the capability to engage and hit targets at far, far longer ranges than they currently can, all with the press of a button for a computerized fire control solution, and a press of the trigger, which will be more like a permissible action link deal, than a current trigger (operating in a close to mid range mode, such a weapon would obviously have a different fire control mode).  Such tech can make the process of engagement faster for long range marksmen/snipers as well, and help push the limits of their current range caps out further and further, which is obviously the goal - faster acquisition and engagement times, and longer range brackets.  
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 02:46:25 PM by Gman »

Offline Patches1

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Re: Marksmanship made easy
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2014, 03:48:11 AM »

Sight picture, sight alignment, breath control, trigger squeeze...anything else is a guess.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 04:06:02 AM by Patches1 »
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