Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Lucifer on October 02, 2014, 04:11:51 AM
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<S>
This plane was a "life saver" for the pilots who had the chance to fight with it.
All encounters happened under the "über compression capabilities" of its engine (>27000 Fts), though the AH's 152 FM is completely
against the 1945 pilots statement : Plane cant turn(very well), cant roll(very well), cant run(very well) and can only dive very well... (all this compared to P51D, Typhoon, P47D25, etc they met in fights).
Maybe (i say maybe) there are still some flaws in the 152 FM, HTC ?
Thoughts ?
**RUN** :bolt:
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152 has a good roll. Just not the same rollrate as the other 190s.
And remember that WW2 air combat in the ETO looked nothing like the MA furballs we have today.
The 152 was not built to scrap at tree top level, it was built for the altitudes that out fighter escorts would come in at (around 25k or so if I'm not mistaken)
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Here's a tree top level fight involving 152's and Tempys...
...From Wikipedia
We reached the position at an altitude of 200 metres, just at the moment when both Tempests after diving started climbing again. Just as the dogfight was developing Sepp Sattler, on our side, was hit and his plane fell like a stone out of the sky ... The Tempest which I attacked quickly reached the same height as me and was [at] approximately 10 o'clock before me. The dogfight began between 50 and 100 metres above ground level and very often the wing tips passed close over the treetops ... The whole fight was executed in a left-hand turn, the low altitude of which would not allow for any mistakes. Ever so gradually I gained metre-by-metre on the Tempest and after a few circles, I had reached the most favourable shooting position ... I pressed my machine gun buttons[10] for the first time ... I could see the Tempest for a short moment in straight ahead flight displaying slightly erratic flying behaviour. But immediately she went straight back into the left turn ... I sighted the Tempest very favourably in my cross hairs and could not have missed, but my machine guns experienced feeding problems. I therefore tried to shoot it down with my cannon and forced her into a tight left-hand turn from where she tipped out over her right wing and crashed into a forest
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I'm well aware of the account. Its also stated that the tempest pilots were inexperienced.
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Less yada, yada, yada, and more proof. HTC has been know to adjust setting if and only if good proof can be provided.
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I'm guessing someone got shot down by a TA152.
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I'm well aware of the account. Its also stated that the tempest pilots were inexperienced.
And the Luftwaffe was just filled to the brim with Experten in 1945... (Sarcasm)
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If I'm not mistaken, HiTech built a program equivalent of a wind tunnel for testing flight modeling in his physics environment. With so many WW2 aircraft that have surviving data to help bench mark his testing program. And industry standard data to augment that benchmarking. And the Ta152 schematics and some surviving data. What are we arguing?
1. - Some gaps might have been filled in with a well benchmarked testing program.
2. - That gaps might exist and there for you want the gaps filled to suit your interpretation of what you have read?
Who is more suited to fill the gaps. Yourself with no background on the Ta152 other than Internet reading, or HiTech basing his livelihood and reputation on his benchmarked program and extensive research and Warbird contacts to model the Ta152?
If you can provide newer real data, I've never seen HiTech ignore real verifiable data. It's just a grueling task searching for it.
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Here's a tree top level fight involving 152's and Tempys...
...
The tempest is one of the worst turning planes of WWII by the way. Turn fights in practice tend not to follow the dry performance tables because the conditions are never like in the test data. Therefore you cannot conclude anything from one report that lacks specific details. The TA152 barely counts as a WWII fighter given the tiny number of them and how little real action they saw in total - for this reason I do not suppose there are a lot of concrete data as to its performance or comparative flight tests. I could be wrong, I am not a 152 history expert.
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Tempest turn much better than the 190A5, and more than 25% better than the A8, and 20% better than the Dora.
The 'Pest' turn just about the same as the 109G6 in AH. all data without flaps.
With flaps deployed 109s get the better out of that tempest, but what Tempy driver fly it slow ?
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And the Luftwaffe was just filled to the brim with Experten in 1945... (Sarcasm)
It *was* Reschke...
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Just keep in mind the TA-152 was purpose built for the onslaught of B-29's the Germans thought were coming.
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It *was* Reschke...
And this *was* his *first* low level fighter kill. Reschke flew Fw 190A-8 bomber interceptors before transitioning to the Ta 152.
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The 152 can dogfight very well, see Junky, Moot, Sukov, Grizz, Irish or Krup flying it. Once you learn to deal with the instability, it becomes quite decent.
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The 152 can dogfight very well, see Junky, Moot, Sukov, Grizz, Irish or Krup flying it. Once you learn to deal with the instability, it becomes quite decent.
Thanks for the mention but those guys all lay the smack down on me quite frequently....I do like getting dirty in a 152 though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA_7QtXwcSo
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The 152 can dogfight very well, see Junky, Moot, Sukov, Grizz, Irish or Krup flying it. Once you learn to deal with the instability, it becomes quite decent.
It is hilarious how comments on "personal ability" trump natural sciences on this board. It would be so much more constructive if the comments would concentrate on the plane and its attributes instead of the e-peens of the poster and his favorite peers.
...but of course the fundamental problem with that is that it would require a brain...and there in lies the problem...
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Reschke flew Fw 190A-8 bomber interceptors before transitioning to the Ta 152.
That explains a lot.
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i thought the post on the idea that hitech has wisdom and modeling and therefore have done nothing wrong...CLEARLY THE GAME IS BIASED TOWARD THE ALLIES...evidence? no mid-war or late war luftwaffe bombers, no late war japanese dive bombers or torpedo bombers.....no early war american dive bombers or torpedo bombers....no raf early and mid war carrier aircraft.....no early-mid war p-51..the p-51A....or the earliest p-47 combat aircraft.....the p-47 c-5. so having alot..not all.....early and mid war axis.....and alot...not all...mid and late war allied,seem to be disproportionate.....but i guess not,if your american and it favors your side,lol :rofl :aok
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i thought the post on the idea that hitech has wisdom and modeling and therefore have done nothing wrong...CLEARLY THE GAME IS BIASED TOWARD THE ALLIES...evidence? no mid-war or late war luftwaffe bombers, no late war japanese dive bombers or torpedo bombers.....no early war american dive bombers or torpedo bombers....no raf early and mid war carrier aircraft.....no early-mid war p-51..the p-51A....or the earliest p-47 combat aircraft.....the p-47 c-5. so having alot..not all.....early and mid war axis.....and alot...not all...mid and late war allied,seem to be disproportionate.....but i guess not,if your american and it favors your side,lol :rofl :aok
Me 262
Me 163
Arador 234
Ta 152H
Jagdpanther
Tiger II
Ostwind
Wirbelwind
Yes, absolutely no German late war equipment modeled :aok
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It is hilarious how comments on "personal ability" trump natural sciences on this board. It would be so much more constructive if the comments would concentrate on the plane and its attributes instead of the e-peens of the poster and his favorite peers.
...but of course the fundamental problem with that is that it would require a brain...and there in lies the problem...
The answer has already been given to the original question. OP talked about accounts of terrible low level flight.Less yada, yada, yada, and more proof. HTC has been know to adjust setting if and only if good proof can be provided.
Nobody has came with any factual data.
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Me 262
Me 163
Arador 234
Ta 152H
Jagdpanther
Tiger II
Ostwind
Wirbelwind
Yes, absolutely no German late war equipment modeled :aok
Lusche,quit making sense,you're ruining a good rant thread with your logic.....shame on you!
If the OP thinks there is something wrong with the 152,it would help if he explained exactly what is wrong.
Also I might add Kurt Tank had envisioned the FW190 to be powered by a inline engine but the availability of such engines just werent possible so the LW requested that Tank use and alternative engine and thus the A model was born. I personally dont think the Germans or Tank knew about the B29 when the 152 was being designed!
I could be wrong on the B29 but I think the 152 was more about outrunning the excorts while being able to down a 4 engine heavy with ease.
:salute
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I could be wrong on the B29 but I think the 152 was more about outrunning the excorts while being able to down a 4 engine heavy with ease.
:salute
This is my understanding as well
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I personally dont think the Germans or Tank knew about the B29 when the 152 was being designed!
They knew about the 29 for quite some time, and were worried about it.
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They knew about the 29 for quite some time, and were worried about it.
They would have been a lot more worried had they known about a certain bomb the 29 would carry.
Losing the ground war saved them from being nuked.
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The OP can always show up in the TA around 5-6:30pm pacific coast time where Morfeind will be holding his informal follow me clinic a few days a week. Up a Ta152 and follow Morfeind and shoot at him. Funny how for a slow motion flyer he is very slowly slippery.
I did so. It cannot turn. It cannot run away level. It cannot roll. But, so what. Get it up to speed and it does it's own thing very well. It zooms like a rocket. It dives like a porpoise. You can trade nose for tail at the top very quickly. And at it's speed, can hold a turn just long enough for deflection shooting. Then dive away. Oh! Yes G effects the Mk108 trajectory worse than the two MG151/20 in terms of needing a volume of rounds to get lucky during deflection shooting with some G on. Other wise setting up your shots is one of the skills to master.
Then go to the DA for Ta152 finishing school.
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In the translation of the of the report on that tree top level fight with the Tempest, the pilot initially shot with his MG button on his Knueppelgriff KG 13 B. That would have been his MG151/20 circuit to the A-Knopf(A Button). MG were routed to the A-Knopf button in all Luft fighters or, in this case the paired wing root cannon. The engine mounted MK108 was routed to the B 1-Knopf (B 1-button) which was standard practice. One has to wonder in the real world how many kills attributed to the Ta152 were with the MG151/20 with ammo to spray versus the MK108. Very few pilots even liked the HUB cannon mounting of that specific gun as a fighter versus fighter weapon. To over come it's limitations, the quad mounting in the 262 was ideal.
Ta152, Tempest action report.
We reached the position at an altitude of 200 metres, just at the moment when both Tempests after diving started climbing again. Just as the dogfight was developing Sepp Sattler, on our side, was hit and his plane fell like a stone out of the sky ... The Tempest which I attacked quickly reached the same height as me and was [at] approximately 10 o'clock before me. The dogfight began between 50 and 100 metres above ground level and very often the wing tips passed close over the treetops ... The whole fight was executed in a left-hand turn, the low altitude of which would not allow for any mistakes. Ever so gradually I gained metre-by-metre on the Tempest and after a few circles, I had reached the most favourable shooting position ... I pressed my machine gun buttons[10] for the first time ... I could see the Tempest for a short moment in straight ahead flight displaying slightly erratic flying behaviour. But immediately she went straight back into the left turn ... I sighted the Tempest very favourably in my cross hairs and could not have missed, but my machine guns experienced feeding problems. I therefore tried to shoot it down with my cannon and forced her into a tight left-hand turn from where she tipped out over her right wing and crashed into a forest
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I personally dont think the Germans or Tank knew about the B29 when the 152 was being designed!
I could be wrong on the B29 but I think the 152 was more about outrunning the excorts while being able to down a 4 engine heavy with ease.
:salute
From this book.
http://www.rzm.com/books/ee/ee013.cfm
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/img114_zps39a5334b.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/img114_zps39a5334b.jpg.html)
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From this book.
http://www.rzm.com/books/ee/ee013.cfm
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/img114_zps39a5334b.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/img114_zps39a5334b.jpg.html)
Colour me embarrassed..... :o
I've read alot on Tank and the FW's in general and didnt recall ever seeing the B29 mentioned specifically.
:salute
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i thought the post on the idea that hitech has wisdom and modeling and therefore have done nothing wrong...CLEARLY THE GAME IS BIASED TOWARD THE ALLIES...evidence? no mid-war or late war luftwaffe bombers, no late war japanese dive bombers or torpedo bombers.....no early war american dive bombers or torpedo bombers....no raf early and mid war carrier aircraft.....no early-mid war p-51..the p-51A....or the earliest p-47 combat aircraft.....the p-47 c-5. so having alot..not all.....early and mid war axis.....and alot...not all...mid and late war allied,seem to be disproportionate.....but i guess not,if your american and it favors your side,lol :rofl :aok
Huh?
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While any intel or propaganda on the B-29 would certainly have spurred the Germans on, it wasn't the genesis of the German Höhenjäger program. The Ta 152 was not the first German high altitude fighter design; it wasn't even Tank's first high altitude fighter design. The Fw 190B-1 with GM-1 (NO2) and pressurized cockpit was supposed to enter production in 1942, but production was cancelled. Pre-production models of the 190B served as chase planes during the Ta 152 development.
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/456/pics/2_90.jpg)
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While any intel or propaganda on the B-29 would certainly have spurred the Germans on, it wasn't the genesis of the German Höhenjäger program. The Ta 152 was not the first German high altitude fighter design; it wasn't even Tank's first high altitude fighter design. The Fw 190B-1 with GM-1 (NO2) and pressurized cockpit was supposed to enter production in 1942, but production was cancelled. Pre-production models of the 190B served as chase planes during the Ta 152 development.
(http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/456/pics/2_90.jpg)
Thanks for the info. I did not know that. Any clear reason why was this program canceled? I know that high alt performance was one of the problems with the 190A's and 109s were considered better up high.
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It is hilarious how comments on "personal ability" trump natural sciences on this board. It would be so much more constructive if the comments would concentrate on the plane and its attributes instead of the e-peens of the poster and his favorite peers.
...but of course the fundamental problem with that is that it would require a brain...and there in lies the problem...
hi there, having fun as usually? :)
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Thanks for the info. I did not know that. Any clear reason why was this program canceled? I know that high alt performance was one of the problems with the 190A's and 109s were considered better up high.
If my memory doesn't fail me, the a/c used the DB603 engine which was to be used in other a/c.
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If my memory doesn't fail me, the a/c used the DB603 engine which was to be used in other a/c.
Yes. From the very beginning the 190 had to use second-rate engines due to priority going to the Messerschmitt planes. The Me 410 had dibs on the DB 603.
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Yes. From the very beginning the 190 had to use second-rate engines due to priority going to the Messerschmitt planes. The Me 410 had dibs on the DB 603.
Really? they prioritized the engines to the 410 over the 190A?!
Not only the 410 was not very successful, it took two of those engines to make it not so successful...
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Fw 190B... And in 1942 they didn't know the 410 wouldn't be that successful...
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If my memory doesn't fail me, the a/c used the DB603 engine which was to be used in other a/c.
This ^^^^
Also there were other issues,cockpit sealing was a problem for presurization,the blower caused the engine to disassemble.... :O And IIRC Willy had a highalt job in the works and well we all know he had the connection Tank didnt.
:salute
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The tempest turned the wrong way which gave away any turn advantage it had over the 152.
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I'd like to find a good book on the 190 and the TA-152. Kurt Tank was a fascinating character.
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I'd like to find a good book on the 190 and the TA-152. Kurt Tank was a fascinating character.
Dieter Harman books (Ta152 and Fw190D)
http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-Ta-152-Luftwaffes-High-Altitude/dp/0764308602
http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-190-Long-Nose-Illustrated/dp/0764318764/ref=pd_sim_b_7?ie=UTF8&refRID=0QMXPE30MBYFT9X4318P
Don't have this one but have other M-M books which are good
http://www.amazon.com/The-Focke-Wulf-152-Monogram-Monarch/dp/0914144537/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1AV4Y10TSQ1CKK66KZB3
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Capt. Eric Brown's assessment from his book "Wings of the Luftwaffe". Note I pulled this from a web source, I don't have the book near me at the moment but will verify when I get home but I from memory it seems to say what I read in the book:
"Flying the Ta 152
Having flown the BMW 801-powered Fw 190 on a many occaissions and in several versions, I was understandably delighted when an opportunity arose to get my hands on what was, from the production standpoint at least, the ultimate development of Kurt Tank's superb basic design, the high-flying Ta 152H-1. ....
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High performance at all altitudes was ensured by its 18.71 Imp gal (85 l) of nitrous oxide (GM 1) and 15.4 Imp gal (70 l) of methanol- water (MW 50), which injected into the Jumo 213E engine according to the altitude at which the fighter was flying, boosted output mightily. Perhaps this was the clue as to why the Ta 152H-1 was never really put through its paces in the UK - we had no GM 1 or MW 50 at Farnborough! Nevertheless, lack of nitrous oxide and methanol-water notwithstanding, my adrenalin began to flow that summer morning as I eased myself into the cockpit of Ta 152H-1 Werk-Nr 150168 and peered along that immense nose which stretched out so far ahead of the windscreen - the only aircraft I was ever to fly offering a comparable stretch of nose was the Blackburn Firebrand. The German fighter was, of course, equipped with a oressured cabin and since I had done quite a bit of flying in the pressurised Spitfire XIX on clean air and turbulence investigation, the opportunity given by the flight to Brize Norton to make a comparison between the German and British fighters was irresistable.
The take-off of the Ta 152H-1 was shorter than that of the Spitfire XIX and the climb was steeper albeit somewhat slower than that of the British fighter, but once the 30,000 ft (9 145 m) mark had slipped oast the altimeter, the Tank fighter gave me the impression of holding its rate of climb better than its British counterpart. In so far as manouvrabbility was concerned, the story was very much the same; the Spitfire was certainly the better of the two below 30,000 ft (9 145 m), there being little to choose between British and German fighters between that altitude and 35,000 ft (10 760m), but above the latter altitude the Ta 152H-1 enjoyed a decided edge. I gave the German fighter its head on the way to Brize Norton and did a full throttle run at 35,000 ft (10 670 m), which, by my rough reckoning, worked out at around 425 mph (684 km/h), or about 35 mph (56 km/h) less than the SpitfireXIX was capable of, but, of course, the availability of GM 1 boost would have more than redressed the balance and the Ta 152H-1 was certainly the superior aeroplane on the score of range. In essence, however, these two potential opponents were remarkably close from many aspects, illustrating how closely parallel Britain and Germany were running in piston-engined fighter technology.
On the descent from altitude to Brize Norton, I had time to make quick checks on the stability and control of the German fighter. I found a noticeable reduction in roll rate and an increase in the stick force per g by comparison with its BMW 801-powered predecessors, some of the more attractive qualities of the original fighter having been sacrificed in order to acheive the best possible performance at extreme altitudes. I therefore expectede the stability to be improved over that of the Fw 190, as indeed it was, but it was not so good that a protracted flight at 45,000 ft (13 715 m) would not have been a fatiguing experience, a fact evidently recognised by the provision of an autopilot.
.....
In my view, the Ta 152H-1 was every bit as good as any of its Allied piston-engined counterparts and, from some aspects, better than most. It was unfortunate for the Jagdflieger but undoubtedly fortunate for the Allies that it arrived on the scene too late to play any serious role in the air war."
http://www.amazon.com/Wings-Luftwaffe-Flying-Captured-Aircraft/dp/1902109155/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412617448&sr=8-1&keywords=wings+of+the+luftwaffe (http://www.amazon.com/Wings-Luftwaffe-Flying-Captured-Aircraft/dp/1902109155/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412617448&sr=8-1&keywords=wings+of+the+luftwaffe)
A great book if you haven't read it. Most of Eric Brown's books are very good, even if he does occasionally give an impression (to me at least) of being slightly biased towards UK warbirds. :)
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ino early war american dive bombers or torpedo bombers
SBD Dauntles is a US early war dive bomber.
no raf early and mid war carrier aircraft
Of course the RAF doesn't have any early/mid-war carrier aircraft, but the Fleet Arm did. The Sea Hurricane Mk I could be considered an early war carrier plane, same with the Seafire Mk II, at the least both are very solidly mid-war carrier aircraft.
.....no early-mid war p-51..the p-51A
P-51B is most definitely a mid-war fighter. I think you probably meant to say we don't have any Allison powered Mustangs.
Any claims of bias towards one side in the plane set has absolutely no foundation at all and is always in the mind of the beholder claiming bias.
ack-ack
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The Sea Gladiator would be an early war British a/c.
In the Mediterranean Theatre during 1940–41, Gladiators saw combat with four Allied air forces: the RAF, Royal Australian Air Force, South African Air Force and Ellinikí Vasilikí Aeroporía (Royal Greek Air Force) squadrons.
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In Finnish winter war Swedens airforce supplied a squadron of Gladiators with crew and all
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Ack-Ack,
Can't really agree about the P-51B. December of 1943 is barely mid war from an American perspective, let alone a European perspective. Less than two years to go in a six year war.
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SBD Dauntles is a US early war dive bomber.
1943 for the start of production of the -5.
Is that still early war in AHII?