Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Rich46yo on October 07, 2014, 11:47:37 PM
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Its no secret the Hurricane won the BOB. What made it so good in real life? Why isn't it remembered better?
Was it tactics? Pilot skill?. Or was it just to damn stubborn to be killed? It should be the iconic fighter of the BOB, the one airplane that saved Democracy to fight another day. Instead its hardly remembered, dang shame.
This was no light weight opponent it faced but the pride of the FatherLand, at the height of morale in world class machines. Yet the Hurricane triumphed.
A remarkable period of History.
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The Spitfire allowed the Hurricane to win the BoB by taking on the 109. Sort of like later in the war the 109 allowed the 190 to slaughter Allied bombers by taking on the 47/51.
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Its no secret the Hurricane won the BOB. What made it so good in real life? Why isn't it remembered better?
Because of BoB, it is actually remembered very well. Based on reading its performance and handling characteristics I actually consider it one of the most over rated combat aircraft of WWII...which is largely due to BoB.
Mark Hanna for example considered that he'd be better off with an I-16 in a combat situation. Of course this comment of his somewhat ignores range and altitude performance of the engine IMO. But I think it still is something that someone with casual knowledge of WWII aircraft would be surprised to hear.
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Let's not rag too hard on the poor Hurri... Yes, the Spitfire and Bf 109 were the cutting edge of fighter technology in 1940, but the Hurricane was easily one of the best second line fighters of the war. Its performance was on par or better than the front line fighters of all other nations except Germany and Britain at the time of the BoB.
Most people just don't realize how far advanced the Spitfire and 109 was.
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Both the media and the public tend to pick one hero and focus on that. Sometimes it is not even the plane that did most of the work - just the more shiny one. I mean look at the Beaufighter - it served the entire war from start to finish. After the LW switched to night bombing of Britain the Beau was the best night fighter to hold them off till the arrival of the mosquito. It served as a ground pounder in all combat theaters and was also a staple of coastal command anti shipping campaign.
Who remembers the Beau today?
And what about the mosquito that replaced the Beau on most of its roles and then added some. The best allied night fighter, the best long range photorecce, a revolutionary bomber. A plane whose main complaint about was that "there never seem to be enough of them".
American rides? The P47 and F6F that did most of the work against the toughest odds and had their thunder stolen from them by the P51 and F4U.
This is how fame works. It tends to get concentrated.
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F4U stole the F6Fs thunder? I don't know about that, I knew what a Hellcat was long before I found out the F4U existed.
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Hurricane is a beauty, has been my favourite since I was knee high. Although the intake version seems to have become strangely and suddenly useless
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Hurricane > 109s just ask Anarchy :ahand
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IMO I think it was how the RAF used the Hurricane in conjunction with the Spitfire, using radar/intel/etc to try and match the Spitfire against fighters and fighter bombers when possible, and have the Hurricanes hit the slower aircraft. I suppose this can be overstated, as I'm sure fighter command sent whatever they had a/c wise to intercept whatever was needed, and couldn't always pick and choose what fought what and where, but I do know this was the preferred match up.
I think the ruggedness of the Hurricane played a major part of its success against both fighters and bombers. I've also read that the way the .303 guns were grouped closely together provided a more dense pattern of bullets at the ranges they were shooting at the bombers with the Hurricane, but again, due to the RAF's policy regarding harmonization and convergence, and that many squads apparently "did their own thing" in this regard, it's likely hard to say what kind of effect this had. I know I've seen it come up in various books and documentaries regarding the Spit's spread out armament, and the Hurricane's focused and tightly grouped guns. I personally don't know, just find it an interesting subject regarding the differences between the two primary British fighters, and an important one, since the guns are really the bottom line of any fighter when it comes right down to it, since they are what causes the enemy to go down after all the other stuff like aircraft performance and the like.
Like the OP said, I'm sure British/RAF tenacity played a role with both British fighter types vs the Luftwaffe. Fighting over "home turf" in friendly radar cover can't be overstated either IMO, and obviously had an equal impact on both Spit and Hurricane.
IMO the major factors in the Hurricane's success were its ruggedness, the more simple materials allowing easier repair and maintenance, it's ability to out turn Luftwaffe fighters that in the heat of the moment decided to turn fight with it, it's more focused firepower, a noteworthy subject due to the very limited firepower of the .303 round - every little bit makes a huge difference type of idea. IMO it was sort of the dark horse of the Battle of Britain, that one factor that ended up surprisingly punching well above its weight class versus a much vaunted opponent.
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Hurri was also more available than the spitfire during BoB.
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Hurricanes are awesome, rugged, reliable and unforgiving to any Bosch Bomber pilot.
A stretch to say it isn't remembered well, every airshow I go to has at least one plucky Hurricane still showing. :salute
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The Hurrie also was one of the first fighter-bombers and had a 40mm under each wings for tank busting.
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The Spitfire allowed the Hurricane to win the BoB by taking on the 109. Sort of like later in the war the 109 allowed the 190 to slaughter Allied bombers by taking on the 47/51.
Except that for every 1 Spit there were at least 3 or 4 Hurri's in the BOB. Hurri's mixed it up with 109's all the time.
Fact is it was very durable and heavily armed fighter fighting on its own ground. Hurri's most Def held their own against 109's and they chewed up Stukas while performing well against Bombers. The Hurricane was a very sound design that passed all tests.
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I'm afraid the Hurries didn't hold their own against the 109E. They didn't even hold their own against the 110C in an even fight. They simply didn't have the speed to compete in 1940-41.
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There were simply more Hurricane's available than there were Spitfires. Had there been more Spits the Hurris may never have seen combat.
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I'm afraid the Hurries didn't hold their own against the 109E. They didn't even hold their own against the 110C in an even fight. They simply didn't have the speed to compete in 1940-41.
Ergh, but that's pure horse squat! The 110 could out run the Hurricane, but not the Spitfire. Then, the 110C only had one defense and that was a Lufbery (last-ditch defensive circle) with the aid of other 110s. Hurricanes devastated the 110 over England, and even more so the Spitfire.
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Nope. The Bf 110C wasn’t as bad as its reputation is in English speaking countries. There's a tendency to judge too much based on the BoB, assuming it typical when in fact it was a relative low point in German fighter effectiveness in the whole first half of WWII. However, even during the BoB the 110C held its own despite the difficult close escort rules they were burdened with; during august and september 1940 the 110C Gruppen claimed 213 enemy aircraft destroyed for the loss of 199 110C's to enemy action (+10 losses in non operational flights and 12 in landing accidents).
Also in North Africa and the Mediterranean the 110C/D usually came out on top against the Hurricane. In 1941 in Greece Squadron Leader Marmaduke "Pat" Pattle, the RAF's leading ace at the time with 50 victories and the highest scoring Hurricane ace of the war, fell victim to ZG 26's Bf 110C's. Another of Pattle's Squadron, Roald Dahl (the famous writer), records five Hurricanes were downed in several air battles that day, with four pilots dying; one of those was Pattle. German claimants were Staffelkapitän Hauptmann Theodor Rossiwall and Oberleutnant Sophus Baagoe who were credited with kills against Hurricanes, taking their scores to 12 and 14 respectively. Which one got Pattle is unknown.
Flying higher and faster the 110C could dictate every engagement, and disengage at will unless caught unawares.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=59&p2=62&pw=1>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
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There is very little support for your opinion. I already said the 110C was faster, but that alone does not bring victory. As to your figures, every air force the world had at the time was over claiming on their kills. The 110Cs were certainly not immune on that front. As I said, once this plane is forced to turn it's all over against the Hurricane.
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Not since ww1 had aerial wars been won mainly by the side with best planes. An air force is a system of system where the performance of the fighters has a minor role. Quantity, tactics, pilot training etc can easily affect the outcome more than what plane the pilotsis flying. LW failed in bob mainly because of poor tactic, failure to recognize and destroy vital target such as air craft factories, radars and air bases. Instead they let RAF of the hook by switching to bombing cities.
Most aerial fights was not a fight, it was more of a poor newbie getting killed by a plane he never saw. For ex the survivbility rate of the il2 increased dramaticly with a reag gunner just because the gunner could keep an eye on their 6.
Remember that a RAF pilot had around 45hrs of flying when sended into combat at the time of bob. Hurricane was a easy plane to fly and prob easier to fly at its max for a rookie pilot compare to spit and 109. Most pilot could not use their plane to max anyway.
The cannon shells of the 109 where also less effective against hurricanes than spit due to the construction of the hurris.
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Hurricane is a beauty
"Well, the good news is you're grounded. No more Hurricanes." He widened his smile, made it almost congratulatory. "I knew you'd be pleased..." They weren't looking pleased. "Now it's just a matter of going through the formalities." He fished a sheet of paper from his in-tray. "You're not the only ones, of course. Dozens of chaps are itching to fly Spits. Itching. Personally, I think it's a bloody awful kite, always going wrong, doesn't turn anywhere near as tightly as a Hurri, very shaky gun-platform, and it's got that knock-kneed undercart, all you have to do is run over a small turd and the whole shooting match capsizes. Plus, of course, the Spit's got no stomach for Jerry bullets, stop a couple and you've bought it, whereas the Hurricane gobbles 'em up and comes back for more...Anyway...where was I?"
* * *
"Welcome!" Haducek cried. "We were just discussing the many ways in which the Hurricane is superior to the Spitfire. Sit down, have a drink."
"Oh, Christ," CH3 said.
"No, it is true," Zabarnowski told him. "Did you know that you get a much better pattern of bullets from the Hurricane? This is because the four guns in each wing are closely grouped together."
"In the Spitfire," Haducek explained, "the guns are spread all along the wing. That is not so good."
"Also," Zabarnowski said, with a flourish of his index finger, "the Hurricane is a much better gun-platform."
"I know," CH3 said. "I told you that at the start."
"This also is related to the placing of the guns," Haducek informed him. "A very, very good idea."
"The Hurricane remains steady, you see," Zabarnowski said. He handed them glasses of some clear fluid. "The Spitfire wobbles and shakes. Cheers."
"Hey, come on now," Barton said. "The Spit's a hell of a good kite."
"But look at its wheels!" Haducek protested. "Thin little wheels that close together, while the Hurricane has those big strong wheels, very wide apart so you can throw it at the ground when you land, much better."
"Wheels! Who cares about wheels?" CH3 scoffed. "What you need is speed, and the Spitfire's faster, no two ways about it."
"Ah, but it's not so tough!" Zabarnowski was getting excited. "You hit a Spit one little bang and poof! She snaps. You hit a Hurricane all day and all night and all next day and she never minds nothing, she flies you home, safe."
"No," Barton said. "Big slow fat old cow. Lousy plane."
"Lousy," CH3 agreed. "Hurricane is cock-up."
"Hurricane is dump," Barton said.
"I tell you about guns," Zabarnowski said eagerly. "With Hurricane you get much better pattern of bullets, see, because - "
"Okay, okay!" Barton waved him down. "You can fly again."
From Robinson, Derek, "Piece of Cake."
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LOL Love it Olds. I have POC on DVD.
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Lets see what this fellow had to say about the Hurricane.
Stewart "Bomb" Finney.
SAAF 1 squadron.
17 videos in all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf5ebCzzMOE&list=PL85DEF013233358E0&index=1
He just passed away last month. :salute
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There is very little support for your opinion. I already said the 110C was faster, but that alone does not bring victory. As to your figures, every air force the world had at the time was over claiming on their kills. The 110Cs were certainly not immune on that front. As I said, once this plane is forced to turn it's all over against the Hurricane.
Common belief and public opinion rarely carry much relevance to historical reality. Can't you see just how silly your argument is? Or as you put it "that's pure horse squat!" - Don't you realize that the only edge the Spitfire had over the Hurricane was speed? That's the only thing that made it better. Even that plane in your avatar, often lauded by public opinion as "the plane that won the war", had only one performance attribute that was better or on par with other fighters: Speed. "Once this plane is forced to turn it's all over against the Hurricane" hods just as true for the Spitfire and 109 and P-51...
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/topkillvic_zps5881b6f3.jpg)
There is a reason why all the speed monsters are in the right hand side column while many turners, including three marks of Spitfires are on the left. Speed is life, altitude is life insurance.
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Lets see what this fellow had to say about the Hurricane.
Stewart "Bomb" Finney.
SAAF 1 squadron.
17 videos in all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf5ebCzzMOE&list=PL85DEF013233358E0&index=1
He just passed away last month. :salute
Nice find. Looks like they used Il-2FB for the illustrative animation.
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Nice find. Looks like they used Il-2FB for the illustrative animation.
IIC's as well.
http://saafww2photographs.yolasite.com/bomb-finney-north-africa-photographs-album-1.php
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Common belief and public opinion . . .
More precisely, the real world (or real war) does not correlate well with a video game.
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Part 13 and 16 are clearly the best. :lol What a lovely old man.
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More precisely, the real world (or real war) does not correlate well with a video game.
So in your personal delusional version of "the real world" air battles were won by turning. That's fine; keep saying that to yourself.
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So in your personal delusional version of "the real world" air battles were won by turning. That's fine; keep saying that to yourself.
Ha! You're simply trying to prove WWII had a different outcome based upon a video game. The facts are that the 110 was required to have escort fighters assigned before venturing over England. If it were a successful fighter then it would not require escorts. If it were forced to fight Hurricanes you argue that it was faster and could escape. Not much of a fighter if its only hand is escape. In Aces High II the only reason that the Bf 110 is even acceptable is because of the twin-engine configuration and the fact that every aircraft seems to hang onto (E)nergy better than they do in reality. So, two engines and giant props lead to success more than actually being the best fighter in the real world. Yet, remaining focused upon the Bf 110 and Hurricane matchup there is no comparison to what happens in this game versus reality, and that is one shining example of how AHII must have got it wrong somehow.
Thanks for pointing that out for us all.
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More nonsensical half-truths and fantasies from you. The 110C didn't have 109 escorts when flying as fighters. Only when they were operating as fighter bombers. The 110C had the exact same advantages and disadvantages against the Hurricanes as the Spitfire had against the Hurricane. The 110C and Spitfire were both faster and had better high altitude performance. In fact, during the Battle of France and early in the BoB (the channel conflict) the 110C was faster than the Spitfire as well. Only after getting its new Rotol propeller and 100 octane avgas did the Spitfire outfly the 110C. If the Spitfire and 109 were not part of the battle the 110C would have been the dominating fighter in the BoB.
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... and that is one shining example of how AHII must have got it wrong somehow.
Yeah, HiTech and Pyro must be idiots! To say nothing of the Luftwaffe who continued to use the 110 in the day-fighter role well into 1942. What do they know, right?
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Too bad they never put a fuel injected engine in the Hurri.
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The 110 suffered a lot during bob, it was faster than a hurricane but the combat record was poor against hurris and spits. Its longer range made it the only option for bomber escort beyond 109 range and as a bnz fighter they had some success. But LW losses of the 110 was far higher than the replacement rate. Poor agility and acceleration was the main flaws of the 110 against RAF fighters.
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The 110C didn't have 109 escorts when flying as fighters. Only when they were operating as fighter bombers.
I am sure I have read otherwise.
BoB engagements may not have been representative of all 110 engagements, but clearly the 110s did not do well as fighters in that campaign. In fact, I don't think I've ever read anything - anything - that says otherwise.
- oldman ("well, hey, Oldman, you just aren't much of a reader now, are you?")
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If you're asking for book recommendations you could start with this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Hurricane-Bf-110-1940-Duel/dp/1846039452
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41G1dS3dYFL.jpg)
Not very in-depth on statistics, but excellent in commentary from pilots of both aircraft.
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In 1990 the Air & Space Museum hosted a couple of pilots that had flown Hurricanes in the BoB as part of their 50th anniversary remembrance - I was fortunate enough to be able to go to their discussion. I wish I could remember their names right now (I'll have to go dig up the program I brought back from the event - they were kind enough to sign it for us). I remember quite clearly they were asked if they thought their Hurricanes were being outclassed by the 109s they had come up against, as the 109s were faster, had a 20mm cannon etc. Pretty much the same arguments that I am seeing in this thread.
Their answer was a clear and unequivocal no. Their reason was that while the 109 had a higher top speed and could dive away from them if he got in trouble, if he did that then he was abandoning the bombers he was escorting and was effectively neutralized. Most of their engagements were over in a matter of minutes and began with them diving in on a group of German bombers and escorts that were lumbering along at the cruising speed of the bombers. The controllers gave them altitude and position data and they always did their best to make sure they came in higher than the enemy so the battle would begin with them coming screaming through the enemy formation because they would almost certainly be outnumbered.
Couple other things I remember -
1. One of the guys had a 109 kill to his credit, along with a couple of bombers (Heinkels I think) -- but he quite clearly let us know that he was after bombers as his top priority. Every night they would listen to the reports of civilian casualties from bombings on the radio, and that got them fired up to stop the bombers. His 109 kill came because his squadron leader would sometimes divide them into 2 sections and have one section dive in first on the bombers and then the other section would dive in on the escorts diving in on the first section and clear their tails.
2. If they did get intercepted by the escorts and a furball started, they could always tell when the 109s got low on fuel because they would suddenly break away and start running back towards the channel. That was fine with him since it meant that there were some bombers behind him someplace that no longer had fighter protection.
This thread got me remembering that perhaps the biggest advantage the Hurricane had was the huge cojones on the men that flew her.
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"Outclassed" is too strong... "At a disadvantage" is a better description of the Hurri in 1940-41, and not a disadvantage that couldn't be balanced out by tactical advantages and skill.
Too bad they never put a fuel injected engine in the Hurri.
What other allied fighter had fuel injection?
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"One weakness of the engine was that it cut out under negative g force during a steep dive. Me-109’s had fuel-injected engines and were not affected by this but Spitfires and Hurricanes were as they used the carburated Merlin engines. This problem was partially solved in 1941 by “Miss Shilling’s Orifice” – a diaphragm fitted across the float chambers designed by Miss Tilly Shilling."
I was under the impression that the early Spitfires and all Hurricanes would loose power in a negative G situation was because of the carburated engines. So I always wondered why they didnt put the fuel injected Merlin in the Hurricane.
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Later Merlin engines were also carburetted, but only the early SU carburetors had the negative-G cutout problem. Google "Tilly orifice" for a cute little story on how it was fixed in the early birds. :)
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Command & Control, better radar and the fact that by June 1940 Britain was making more fighter aircraft per month than Germany was and had pilots ( the greatest shortage) coming in from overseas.
Sometimes we need an icon.... The Spit became one.... It did what was needed at the time..... It was not "better" in every respect.
The Hurri was not glamorous enough.
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Was the 12 .30 gun bird available for the BOB ? It was like the early llB right?
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The first 12 gun Mk. II S2 were deployed in October 1940, so they were available for some time during the last month of the battle.
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I would think the legendary toughness of the airframe with the addition of 12 .30's made this model Hurri an impressive aircraft. I'd hate to be in a top gun of a 111 with one bearing down on me. Ive yet to fly it in game, dang I have no time to play, but think I will maybe against a naval foe.
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Eight guns are terrifying enough, let alone 12 guns.
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LOL Love it Olds. I have POC on DVD.
The book is far superior.
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Hurricane was the hero not because of its performance in the air but rather because its performance on the ground...
1. It was much easier to produce and was available in greater numbers than Spitfire.
2. It was much easier to maintain and repair the battle damage (for example stressed skin of spitfire vs fabric ones)
3. It has much shorter turn around cycle (~10min vs ~30min of spit)
On the point of the performance in the air it does not THAT matter. On the other hand C&C matters a lot, resource management matters a lot.