Lets talk Hurricanes.

[Chalenge]

I'm afraid the Hurries didn't hold their own against the 109E. They didn't even hold their own against the 110C in an even fight. They simply didn't have the speed to compete in 1940-41.

Ergh, but that's pure horse squat! The 110 could out run the Hurricane, but not the Spitfire. Then, the 110C only had one defense and that was a Lufbery (last-ditch defensive circle) with the aid of other 110s. Hurricanes devastated the 110 over England, and even more so the Spitfire.

[GScholz]

Nope. The Bf 110C wasn’t as bad as its reputation is in English speaking countries. There's a tendency to judge too much based on the BoB, assuming it typical when in fact it was a relative low point in German fighter effectiveness in the whole first half of WWII. However, even during the BoB the 110C held its own despite the difficult close escort rules they were burdened with; during august and september 1940 the 110C Gruppen claimed 213 enemy aircraft destroyed for the loss of 199 110C's to enemy action (+10 losses in non operational flights and 12 in landing accidents).

Also in North Africa and the Mediterranean the 110C/D usually came out on top against the Hurricane. In 1941 in Greece Squadron Leader Marmaduke "Pat" Pattle, the RAF's leading ace at the time with 50 victories and the highest scoring Hurricane ace of the war, fell victim to ZG 26's Bf 110C's. Another of Pattle's Squadron, Roald Dahl (the famous writer), records five Hurricanes were downed in several air battles that day, with four pilots dying; one of those was Pattle. German claimants were Staffelkapitän Hauptmann Theodor Rossiwall and Oberleutnant Sophus Baagoe who were credited with kills against Hurricanes, taking their scores to 12 and 14 respectively. Which one got Pattle is unknown.

Flying higher and faster the 110C could dictate every engagement, and disengage at will unless caught unawares.

[Chalenge]

There is very little support for your opinion. I already said the 110C was faster, but that alone does not bring victory. As to your figures, every air force the world had at the time was over claiming on their kills. The 110Cs were certainly not immune on that front. As I said, once this plane is forced to turn it's all over against the Hurricane.

[Zimme83]

Not since ww1 had aerial wars been won mainly by the side with best planes. An air force is a system of system where the performance of the fighters has a minor role. Quantity, tactics, pilot training etc can easily affect the outcome more than what plane the pilotsis flying. LW failed in bob mainly because of poor tactic, failure to recognize and destroy vital target such as air craft factories, radars and air bases. Instead they let RAF of the hook by switching to bombing cities.
Most aerial fights was not a fight, it was more of a poor newbie getting killed by a plane he never saw. For ex the survivbility rate of the il2 increased dramaticly with a reag gunner just because the gunner could keep an eye on their 6.

Remember that a RAF pilot had around 45hrs of flying when sended into combat at the time of bob. Hurricane was a easy plane to fly and prob easier to fly at its max for a rookie pilot compare to spit and 109. Most pilot could not use their plane to max anyway.
The cannon shells of the 109 where also less effective against hurricanes than spit due to the construction of the hurris.

[Oldman731]

Hurricane is a beauty

"Well, the good news is you're grounded.  No more Hurricanes."  He widened his smile, made it almost congratulatory.  "I knew you'd be pleased..."  They weren't looking pleased.  "Now it's just a matter of going through the formalities."  He fished a sheet of paper from his in-tray.  "You're not the only ones, of course.  Dozens of chaps are itching to fly Spits.  Itching.  Personally, I think it's a bloody awful kite, always going wrong, doesn't turn anywhere near as tightly as a Hurri, very shaky gun-platform, and it's got that knock-kneed undercart, all you have to do is run over a small turd and the whole shooting match capsizes.  Plus, of course, the Spit's got no stomach for Jerry bullets, stop a couple and you've bought it, whereas the Hurricane gobbles 'em up and comes back for more...Anyway...where was I?"

*       *       *

"Welcome!"  Haducek cried.  "We were just discussing the many ways in which the Hurricane is superior to the Spitfire.  Sit down, have a drink."

"Oh, Christ," CH3 said.

"No, it is true," Zabarnowski told him.  "Did you know that you get a much better pattern of bullets from the Hurricane?  This is because the four guns in each wing are closely grouped together."

"In the Spitfire," Haducek explained, "the guns are spread all along the wing.  That is not so good."

"Also," Zabarnowski said, with a flourish of his index finger, "the Hurricane is a much better gun-platform."

"I know," CH3 said.  "I told you that at the start."

"This also is related to the placing of the guns," Haducek informed him.  "A very, very good idea."

"The Hurricane remains steady, you see," Zabarnowski said.  He handed them glasses of some clear fluid.  "The Spitfire wobbles and shakes.  Cheers."

"Hey, come on now," Barton said.  "The Spit's a hell of a good kite."

"But look at its wheels!"  Haducek protested.  "Thin little wheels that close together, while the Hurricane has those big strong wheels, very wide apart so you can throw it at the ground when you land, much better."

"Wheels!   Who cares about wheels?"  CH3 scoffed.  "What you need is speed, and the Spitfire's faster, no two ways about it."

"Ah, but it's not so tough!"  Zabarnowski was getting excited.  "You hit a Spit one little bang and poof!  She snaps.  You hit a Hurricane all day and all night and all next day and she never minds nothing, she flies you home, safe."

"No," Barton said.  "Big slow fat old cow.  Lousy plane."

"Lousy," CH3 agreed.  "Hurricane is cock-up."

"Hurricane is dump," Barton said.

"I tell you about guns," Zabarnowski said eagerly.  "With Hurricane you get much better pattern of bullets, see, because - "

"Okay, okay!"  Barton waved him down.  "You can fly again."

From Robinson, Derek, "Piece of Cake."

[Rich46yo]

LOL Love it Olds. I have POC on DVD.

[lyric1]

Lets see what this fellow had to say about the Hurricane.

Stewart "Bomb" Finney.

SAAF 1 squadron.

17 videos in all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf5ebCzzMOE&list=PL85DEF013233358E0&index=1

He just passed away last month.

[GScholz]

There is very little support for your opinion. I already said the 110C was faster, but that alone does not bring victory. As to your figures, every air force the world had at the time was over claiming on their kills. The 110Cs were certainly not immune on that front. As I said, once this plane is forced to turn it's all over against the Hurricane.

Common belief and public opinion rarely carry much relevance to historical reality. Can't you see just how silly your argument is? Or as you put it "that's pure horse squat!" - Don't you realize that the only edge the Spitfire had over the Hurricane was speed? That's the only thing that made it better. Even that plane in your avatar, often lauded by public opinion as "the plane that won the war", had only one performance attribute that was better or on par with other fighters: Speed. "Once this plane is forced to turn it's all over against the Hurricane" hods just as true for the Spitfire and 109 and P-51...




There is a reason why all the speed monsters are in the right hand side column while many turners, including three marks of Spitfires are on the left. Speed is life, altitude is life insurance.

[GScholz]

Lets see what this fellow had to say about the Hurricane.

Stewart "Bomb" Finney.

SAAF 1 squadron.

17 videos in all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf5ebCzzMOE&list=PL85DEF013233358E0&index=1

He just passed away last month.

Nice find. Looks like they used Il-2FB for the illustrative animation.

[lyric1]

Nice find. Looks like they used Il-2FB for the illustrative animation.

IIC's as well.

http://saafww2photographs.yolasite.com/bomb-finney-north-africa-photographs-album-1.php

[Chalenge]

Common belief and public opinion . . .

More precisely, the real world (or real war) does not correlate well with a video game.

[GScholz]

Part 13 and 16 are clearly the best.    What a lovely old man.

[GScholz]

More precisely, the real world (or real war) does not correlate well with a video game.

So in your personal delusional version of "the real world" air battles were won by turning. That's fine; keep saying that to yourself.

[Chalenge]

So in your personal delusional version of "the real world" air battles were won by turning. That's fine; keep saying that to yourself.

Ha! You're simply trying to prove WWII had a different outcome based upon a video game. The facts are that the 110 was required to have escort fighters assigned before venturing over England. If it were a successful fighter then it would not require escorts. If it were forced to fight Hurricanes you argue that it was faster and could escape. Not much of a fighter if its only hand is escape. In Aces High II the only reason that the Bf 110 is even acceptable is because of the twin-engine configuration and the fact that every aircraft seems to hang onto (E)nergy better than they do in reality. So, two engines and giant props lead to success more than actually being the best fighter in the real world. Yet, remaining focused upon the Bf 110 and Hurricane matchup there is no comparison to what happens in this game versus reality, and that is one shining example of how AHII must have got it wrong somehow.

Thanks for pointing that out for us all.

[GScholz]

More nonsensical half-truths and fantasies from you. The 110C didn't have 109 escorts when flying as fighters. Only when they were operating as fighter bombers. The 110C had the exact same advantages and disadvantages against the Hurricanes as the Spitfire had against the Hurricane. The 110C and Spitfire were both faster and had better high altitude performance. In fact, during the Battle of France and early in the BoB (the channel conflict) the 110C was faster than the Spitfire as well. Only after getting its new Rotol propeller and 100 octane avgas did the Spitfire outfly the 110C. If the Spitfire and 109 were not part of the battle the 110C would have been the dominating fighter in the BoB.