Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: earl1937 on October 27, 2014, 10:12:37 AM
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:airplane: In this online game that we, or least some of us, love and play, there are many different kinds of aircraft with many different types of wings. Each wing on an aircraft is designed to do some specific operation for the performance of the aircraft. I think it would be beneficial if some our new and maybe some older players know more about these wings, so here is a little questionnaire which might be of help!
!- What is meant by a 12% wing, a 8% wing or a 21% wing, such as that on the B-17G in our game?
2- What is "MAC"?
3- What is a wing with a "balanced" aileron, such as that on our "Spit Fires"?
4- What is a "Fowler Flap" type wing?
5- What is a "split Flap" wing?
6- What is a "Laminar" Flow wing?
7- Which two aircraft in our game are famous for the "Laminar" flow wing?
8- What is the "separation" point of a wing and why is that important?
9- During a "stall", the wing's separation point moves: forward---backward---remains the same spot?
10- Which aircraft in our game has a wing that was called a "Hersey Bar Wing"?
11- In an aircraft wing, (those of WW2 design), had two wing spars, one main spar and one secondary spar! What was the purpose of the secondary spar?
12- There were "loose" terms used in describing wing design of WW2 aircraft! Which aircraft has a "Over the shoulder" wing?
13- The 57th fighter-bomber group in Italy flew the P-47D40 and the P-47D25 which we have in this game. What did the designers do wrong when they designed the wing and why?
14- What is called the "angle of Incidence" of a wing?
15- What is "wing dihedral"?
16- Why is dihedral important to the performance of the aircraft, such as our C-47 "Skytrain"?
17- How is the length of a wing decided by the designers?
18- What is wing "wash out"?
19- Why are some wing tips round and some square?
20- When an aircraft wing is close to the ground, such as landing, an effect affects the performance of the wing, unseen by man or machine and it is called what?
And it usually begins to effect the wing at what height above the ground or runway?
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7- Which two aircraft in our game are famous for the "Laminar" flow wing?
The P-51 and the Tempest
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1: ratio of maximum thickness of airfoil to chord?
2) Mean Aerodynamic Chord (i.e. an "average" chord length for tapered wings)
3) ?
4) a flap that extends outward (to increase chord) as well as downward?
5) only the bottom side of the wing deflects downwards (i.e. the flap splits off the bottom of the wing)
6) a wing on which the aerodynamicst thinks the airflow on top does not transition to turbulent flow (but it does as soon as a bug splat appears)
7) P51 (don't know of any others, didn't know the Tempest had a laminar wing)
8) the point along the chord that the flow departs from laminar to turbulent (i.e. vortices and chaotic flow instead of single direction vector)
9) forward?
10) Storch (i.e. rectangular bar planform)
11) beats me, prevent twisting?
12) ?
13) ?
14) Angle the wing makes in relation to the fuselage
15) The angle the wing makes viewed from the front in relation to level. A positive dihedral means the wing tips are higher off the ground that the root.
16) This stabilizes the roll axis. It also gives coupling between the rudder and roll axis.
17) Ah.. sufficient wing loading to keep the plane in the air at a reasonable airspeed?
18) lower angle of incidence at the wing tips so the root stalls first and the tips keep flying. Prevents sudden roll off at stall, i.e. tip stall.
19) beats me but it affects the tip vortex which affects lift a bit
20) Ground effect. Not sure but I would guess it starts to be felt at an altitude of about a wingspan.
Do I get a gold star?
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The P-51 and the Tempest
:airplane: The Ponie and the B-24J
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But the Tempest indeed has a laminar flow wing as well :old:
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1: ratio of maximum thickness of airfoil to chord?
2) Mean Aerodynamic Chord (i.e. an "average" chord length for tapered wings)
3) ?
4) a flap that extends outward (to increase chord) as well as downward?
5) only the bottom side of the wing deflects downwards (i.e. the flap splits off the bottom of the wing)
6) a wing on which the aerodynamicst thinks the airflow on top does not transition to turbulent flow (but it does as soon as a bug splat appears)
7) P51 (don't know of any others, didn't know the Tempest had a laminar wing)
8) the point along the chord that the flow departs from laminar to turbulent (i.e. vortices and chaotic flow instead of single direction vector)
9) forward?
10) Storch (i.e. rectangular bar planform)
11) beats me, prevent twisting?
12) ?
13) ?
14) Angle the wing makes in relation to the fuselage
15) The angle the wing makes viewed from the front in relation to level. A positive dihedral means the wing tips are higher off the ground that the root.
16) This stabilizes the roll axis. It also gives coupling between the rudder and roll axis.
17) Ah.. sufficient wing loading to keep the plane in the air at a reasonable airspeed?
18) lower angle of incidence at the wing tips so the root stalls first and the tips keep flying. Prevents sudden roll off at stall, i.e. tip stall.
19) beats me but it affects the tip vortex which affects lift a bit
20) Ground effect. Not sure but I would guess it starts to be felt at an altitude of about a wingspan.
Do I get a gold star?
:airplane:
#1 is correct, but put another way, it is the thickness of wing in % of the length of the wing!
#2 is correct
#4 is correct
#5 is correct
#7 P-51 and B-24J
#8 Separation point is where the air flowing over the wing stops producing lift, only drag
#9 is correct
#10 B-17G
#11 Partially correct, but don't you think that the wing would warp when flaps are lowered, if not re-enforced
#19 Speed! But it hurts maneuverability, good example in this game is the Spit fires, some have rounded tips, one has square tips.
#20 Correct
While a gold star would indicate a perfect score, you did get a large enough amount correct for a passing grade of 65, which in my day would be failing, but since we have "dumbed" down our schools, 60 is now a passing grade. Hope these questions helped you some. I did not answer all correctly so that other guys might try their hand at this!
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But the Tempest indeed has a laminar flow wing as well :old:
:airplane: I am sure you are correct, but I don't know to much about the British aircraft. I have never flown the tempest in this game!
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12) Storch
B24 & A20 might qualify as shoulder mounted.
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#10 B-17G
Hershey Bar wing is a constant chord wing (leading edge is parallel to the trailing edge, like the Piper J-3 Cub, and a Hershey bar). B17 has a tapered wing.
(Gotta get my score up ;) )
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I thought the B-24 was a Davis wing. Is that considered laminar flow??? I know I can google it :devil Just to lazy
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I thought the B-24 was a Davis wing. Is that considered laminar flow??? I know I can google it :devil Just to lazy
:airplane: The people at North American, when designing the "Ponie", borrowed the wing design of the B-24 because it was much faster, but I don't think wind tunnel testing was in vogue then, so they might not have known what they were dealing with. I think the term "Laminar" flow wing was more of a marketing phase than anything for the U.S. Army brass.
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Hershey Bar wing is a constant chord wing (leading edge is parallel to the trailing edge, like the Piper J-3 Cub, and a Hershey bar). B17 has a tapered wing.
(Gotta get my score up ;) )
:airplane: Yes, the 17 does have a "tapered" wing design, but when viewed from the side, looking at the shape of the airfoil, one of the Bell Bomber plant employees at Mareitta, Ga, which was building it under contract, coined the phase, "Hersey Bar" wing and it stuck.
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12) Storch
B24 & A20 might qualify as shoulder mounted.
:airplane: You are correct, B-25, B-26 and many other aircraft are considered "over the shoulder" mounted wings. If the wing is mounted more than 50% above the center of the fuselage from top to bottom, it is considered a "over the should wing". Then you have the "mid" wing design, and then you have "standard" wing mount, which is the wing mounted more or less on the bottom of the fuselage! The only other "single" wing design, other than those three during the WW2 era, was a "gull wing" design and we all know what that was!
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re: Tempest. One thing to keep in mind is that what one consider's "most famous" in aircraft is significantly affected by where you live. Worldwide the Spitfire is generally the most famous of WWII aircraft, but in the USA the P-51 and B-17 easily eclipse it in fame.
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re: Tempest. One thing to keep in mind is that what one consider's "most famous" in aircraft is significantly affected by where you live. Worldwide the Spitfire is generally the most famous of WWII aircraft, but in the USA the P-51 and B-17 easily eclipse it in fame.
References please.
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References please.
Talk to people.
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References please.
:airplane: The Spitfires became famous during the early war years because of what is termed the "Battle of Britain", which the German Air Force was trying to defeat the Brits on their own home ground. History records what happened and the legend of the Spit grew by giant strides! Then as the war raged on, most people, world wide tend to remember the last thing which made an impression on them, where or not out of respect or awe!
The B-17's became famous, not only for the job they did, but pictures of them, turning the sky black with 1,000 bomber raids, where the bomber "stream" was 150 miles long at times, as they, time and again, pounded the German industrial complex. Those pictures, printed though out the world, "Look" mag here and other pubs, quickly erased the memory of what those brave young Allied pilots did during the battle of Britain.
The images of all those B-17's, B-24's, B-26's, gave everyone a feeling of impending victory in the war and were very instrumental in providing moral to people on the home fronts which had to built the allied war machines
The Spit, because of its short range, was mostly used as submarine patrol duties, CAP over vital bases and factories, and of course we cannot forget the Spit14 and Tempest which were trying to intercept the V-2's Germany was lobbing towards Britain. Not to take away the importance of what the Spit's did, because they held the line against the Germans until the U.S. and other countries could "tool" up and start those massive production lines, which would spell the doom of the Germans and Japanese!
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In Europe the Spitfire is perhaps the most known (and celebrated) WWII aircraft. I would think the Zero is better known in Japan, China and Southeast Asia. Though I suspect the Japanese are also very familiar with the B-29...
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The Spit, because of its short range, was mostly used as submarine patrol duties, CAP over vital bases and factories, and of course we cannot forget the Spit14 and Tempest which were trying to intercept the V-2's Germany was lobbing towards Britain. Not to take away the importance of what the Spit's did, because they held the line against the Germans until the U.S. and other countries could "tool" up and start those massive production lines, which would spell the doom of the Germans and Japanese!
Well... The first single-engined allied aircraft over Berlin was a Spitfire PR VI on 14 March 1941... However you are correct that the American industry contributed significantly to the war in Europe, but perhaps not in the way you think. What many if not most Americans overlook is the fact that the perhaps most important battles in Europe were fought and won before America entered the war directly. The Battle of Britain, Battle of Moscow, Battle of Stalingrad... The British won the Battle of El Alamein in Egypt just as the USAAF started operating out of England in late 1942. By the time America got into the war directly Germany was already retreating on all fronts. The lend-lease deal with Britain and the Soviets was undoubtedly America's greatest contribution to victory in Europe, and without it victory would have been doubtful, at least for the Soviets. Victory was precarious enough with American aid...
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Interesting note on the Spitfire... The British were working on long-ranged armed versions of the Spitfire before the Mustang arrived. However, this work was halted when the Mustang arrived and so beautifully filled the role of long-range escort. The British test pilot Jeffrey Quill flew a modified long-range Spitfire Mk IX, and I quote from his book:
"Long range escort was the role in which the Merlin Mustang was particularly excellent because of the large load of fuel it was able to carry. True, the Spitfire Mk VIII, in service in 1943, was carrying additional fuel in its wing roots and also in jettosonabale tanks under the fuselage, but it was serving overseas and the problem of accommodating larger loads of fuel in the Spitfire at home was acute. The only available space was in the fuselage behind the pilot, but a tank of significant size there would have a major effect on the centre of gravity.
However, it seemed to both Joe Smith and myself that, for the purpose of escorting bomber formations in daylight, a degree of longitudinal instability in the early stages of a sortie would be acceptable. Therefore the fuel in the rear fuel tank could be used for take off and climb and during the early stages of the sortie, the main tanks and wing tanks remaining full. In this case the centre of gravity would be moving forward to an acceptable position by the time the aircraft reached hostile airspace. It was decided therefore to embody a rear fuselage tank in a derivative of the MkXIV shortly due to come into production, the Mk XVIII.
In the meantime a 75-gallon tank was fitted in the fuselage of a Mk IX behind the pilot and we also fitted a bob-weight in the elevator circuit, so what with this and the large horn-balance on the elevator we hoped for the best. However the best and most expedient way to test this aeroplane was to fly it a good long way and see how everything worked. So I took off from High Post on Salisbury Plain with all tanks full, carrying a 45-gallon drop tank in addition, and set off at economical cruising boost and RPM in the general direction of Scotland. The weather was unsettled, so I decided to fly at low altitude which was not, of course, a favourable height for optimum air miles per gallon: but I thought that if I could fly a distance equivalent to John o'Groats and back non-stop at that rather unfavourable height, keeping to the east of the Pennines and the Grampians, it would be a useful demonstration.
The aeroplane was unstable to start with, but as soon as I had used up the rear fuselage fuel the handling was back to normal and I settled down to a long and enjoyable flight over a great variety of countryside from Salisbury Plan to the Moray Firth and back again, all below 1,000ft. In distance, and not taking into account the various diversions for weather and terrain, it was the equivalent to flying from East Anglia to Berlin and back. It took five hours.
This flight demonstrated, if nothing else, that there was no fundamental reason why the Spitfire should not be turned into a long-range escort fighter provided that certain problems could be solved.
A demonstration of this basic fact was also given by the Americans. They had two Mk IX Spitfires at Wright Field and by local modification they added two Mustang overload fuel tanks under the wings and some additional fuel inside the wings. They flew them across the Atlantic by the Northern Route via Greenland and Iceland and eventually they were thoroughly examined by the Supermarine design department. Unfortunately some of the structural modifications carried out were detrimental to the strength of the aircraft and so could not be considered for production."
(http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire9-fuelsystem-lr.jpg)
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The images of all those B-17's, B-24's, B-26's, gave everyone a feeling of impending victory in the war and were very instrumental in providing moral to people on the home fronts which had to built the allied war machines
If only people knew that these bombers could not hit anything expect maybe the ground...
References please.
The Spit was a legend even before the Brits ordered the first P-51 to be built.
Spitfire was the poster boy of the "savior of Britain".
The Mustang was able to escort heavy bombers on their dubious mission to litter Germany's country side with bombs and bomber debris.
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If only people knew that these bombers could not hit anything expect maybe the ground...
The Spit was a legend even before the Brits ordered the first P-51 to be built.
Spitfire was the poster boy of the "savior of Britain".
The Mustang was able to escort heavy bombers on their dubious mission to litter Germany's country side with bombs and bomber debris.
:airplane: You hit the nail right on the head!!! Up until mid 1943, when they started using H2X radar system for aiming, a bomb which landed within 2 miles of the target was considered a hit! The big problem over Europe was the in experience with the jet streams and the problem of bomb drift from high altitudes, 28 and 29,000 feet. The problem of the jet stream disturbing bomb aiming really came into real hard focus when the B-29 started bombing Japan.
Curtis E. LaMay took over the 21st Air Force, which was operating the B-29 and spent many hours with weather people discussing the problem. A new and better "Norton" bomb sight was installed in all the 29's, but still the results were less than satisfactory. They even tried increasing slightly a deflection in the "fins" of bombs to make them spin, just like a bullet does and this didn't work out. Even with on board radar systems which could pin point the target didn't help much as the bombs just weren't going where they were aimed.
Lemay got the idea of dropping fire bombs from 5,000 feet, so as to not scatter them everywhere, but the fire bombs were never intended to be precise anyway, so it didn't matter. so the 21st set about fire bombing just about all the major Japanese cities. This proved highly successful and hurried the end of WW2 over Japan. The two atomic bombs dropped were just the "straw" that broke the camels back, so to speak.
Now, with guided bombs, they can drop a 500 lber in a pickle barrel from 30,000 feet.
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GScholz,
I've read that too. My take on it was that had the Merlin Mustang not happened there would have been long range Spitfires doing escort to Berlin and back. The reason it didn't happen was because the Merlin P-51 had that covered.
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I've read that too. My take on it was that had the Merlin Mustang not happened there would have been long range Spitfires doing escort to Berlin and back. The reason it didn't happen was because the Merlin P-51 had that covered.
At that time the RAF bombers were flying almost only at night and did not need a daytime long range escort fighter. At least not in large numbers - RAF P51s did escort mosquitoes and other small-scale long range missions during daytime. Do you mean that the RAF intended to escort the Americans on day raids to the heart of Germany?
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At that time the RAF bombers were flying almost only at night and did not need a daytime long range escort fighter. At least not in large numbers - RAF P51s did escort mosquitoes and other small-scale long range missions during daytime. Do you mean that the RAF intended to escort the Americans on day raids to the heart of Germany?
Yes, and American's flying long range Spitfires as well. As you note, the USAAF had their own long range Spitfire project.
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In case someone here haven't heard about Spitfire 944 here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie3SrjLlcUY
A definite "must watch" if you haven't seen it...
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Yeah, that old dude is the quintessence of Cool.
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In case someone here haven't heard about Spitfire 944 here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie3SrjLlcUY
A definite "must watch" if you haven't seen it...
Those photo-recce pilots sure did not get the glory they deserved. Spits and mossies roving across axis territory shooting the enemy with cameras instead of guns. That took some mighty big balls.
"That was the sweetest airplane. Any pilot should fly a spitfire at least once" (13:43).
That seems to be the sentiment of every pilot who flew a spit. In the early days of the Israeli air force, when they had 109s, P51Ds and Spits flying in the same squadron, every pilot had a different opinion of the planes, but they all loved the Spit. Ezer Weizmann, one of the first IAF fighter pilots, later a legendary IAF commander and Israeli president, loved his Spit so much that he ordered to keep one in flying condition in the IAF museum, so he and his buddies could take it out for a spin when they felt the itch. Without the armor and guns they said it was an even greater joy to fly.
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Those photo-recce pilots sure did not get the glory they deserved. Spits and mossies roving across axis territory shooting the enemy with cameras instead of guns. That took some mighty big balls.
Indeed. Just think of the workload flying alone from Britain to Germany and back. All the navigating, looking for enemy interceptors, finding your target, navigating back to base... One man alone in an unarmed and unarmored single-engined plane.
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My brother-in-law's dad was a Recon Photographer assigned to a Mossie PR recon unit. He talked about one time being chased by a Bf-109 while they were taking pictures at in Northern Africa. It was at a higher altitude and parallel to their course and tried to 'jump them'. His pilot just nose down a little, full throttle and the Mossie 'walked away'. He worked in East Europe first, then Africa, later Italy was when he was busiest. He was off to south east Asia before the end of hostilities but by then he was mostly the 'odd' flight and not much work. Alan became a veterinarian after the war and died at the old age of 92 in 2008.