Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Randy1 on November 02, 2014, 02:07:30 PM
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In another thread, I had posted that the P-38J flew lighter than the P-38L with the same load-out. I remember an older thread where this came up as well. A few others have agreed the J flies better than the L in low speed handling. I added the J got the nose around quicker as if the elevator was more responsive than the L. Another had noted the J handled near stall maneuvers better than the L model. Anyway, a new thread seemed to be in order.
AH shows the weight and horsepower to be the same. Their curves and independent performance testing supports that. The dimensions and airfoils are the same.
I throw out for discussion a reason for the difference in flight characteristics between the J and L models.
I had suggest the L model is modeled tail heavy by a mathematical misplaced CG in the model. I had stated in the other post I wondered if it were misplaced mathematical weight in the model. I just don't see how this could be true the more I think about it. WAGing I would think the model coding for the L would be a cut and paste of the J.
Then it came to me that the dive flap model on the L would be the only change vs the J outside the roll rate model.
Is it possible the dive flap on the L is modeled in the down position all of the time, in error? This might create a nose up problem like it was modeled tail heavy at slow speeds. Add to that the countless thread space used up noting no notable drag when the flap is deployed and you start to wonder if an o and 1 are in the wrong place and the flap is always down.
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If the dive flap were always down you wouldn't see the difference between up and down that you see now. Any handling difference between the J and L should be measurable, like the difference in roll rate.
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Slow speed handling of both the P-38J and the P-38L are the same, the J isn't better in game than the L at slow speeds.
ack-ack
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The J has nicer skins. Everyone knows that a cooler plane handles better... at leat in the player's mind.
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You'll notice the older P38 sticks in AH tend to fly the J or G more than the L. Much like it was historically, the hydraulic boosted ailerons tend to hinder more than help off those that aren't accustomed to it. That said, I still feel the snaproll is different between the G/J and the L.
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You'll notice the older P38 sticks in AH tend to fly the J or G more than the L. Much like it was historically, the hydraulic boosted ailerons tend to hinder more than help off those that aren't accustomed to it. That said, I still feel the snaproll is different between the G/J and the L.
After spending the previous tour before the last just about entirely in the L, I was surprised this last tour how much easier it was to get kills in the J model. Several times I have went back to the L thinking it should be a better fighter because of the boosted aileron simulation but the sluggish response of the L in certain situations is small yet unmistakeable.
Although you can't put a lot of stock in a comparison between kills in a P-38LvsP-38J kills statistics, the J always wins engagements with the L by a wide margin. Several factors make this number very questionable so I don't hang my hat on the statistics.
How the dive flap is modeled is my best guess. Alas, I have no proof. If others say there is no difference I want and can not argue with them since the difference is unmeasurable at this time.
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Having never flown the L very much in the fighter role before, I did just that this tour. Overall if you can fly the other two, you can fly the L the same, but it's got it's quirks which always seem to manifest in a slower speed fight. Wing stalls seem to be much more common in the L. It's not night and day, but the L feels less stable to me in many of the situations I often put more poor P-38 in. :)
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Having never flown the L very much in the fighter role before, I did just that this tour. Overall if you can fly the other two, you can fly the L the same, but it's got it's quirks which always seem to manifest in a slower speed fight. Wing stalls seem to be much more common in the L. It's not night and day, but the L feels less stable to me in many of the situations I often put more poor P-38 in. :)
Many many moons ago I used the J in Fighter mode and the L in Attack mode. I don't remember any difference then but like you, after a long run in the L, the J difference became noticeable.
The only change in the L that might account for the difference would be the modeling of the dive flap. That difference would be small. I wonder too if there is some sort of dive flap subroutine that is inserted in every dive flap model and that might have an error in all dive flap planes. It could be something like the flap model works but the added drag stays in the model no matter if on or off.
I ran several test today at slow and high speed hoping to discover a small amount of lift or loss of lift when the dive flap is dropped. If I saw a change then that is one thing but because I didn't see a change , it did not tell me anything since a small change may not have been detectable by my test do to inaccuracy.
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I don't think it's the dive flap. I think it's the effect from the boosted ailerons that you're noticing, and the same stick movements that you can do in a J will sometimes cause the L to stall.
That added roll rate, while really nice when at higher speeds, causes havoc if you're not used to it when maneuvering at lower speeds. The J feels smooth, whereas the L does not.
However, if you take some of the dedicated L fliers, they can move it around just as smoothly as some of the J fliers. But put some of them into a J, and they have similiar problems, albeit not as pronounced as moving from a J to a L.
A chart of the roll rates (something on the Internet - can't verify the veracity):
(http://www.456fis.org/THE%20P-38/P-38rollchart.JPG)
Another chart, seemingly of a later model J. At 100mph, the boosted ailerons make it 2 seconds faster in roll rate to 90 degrees than without the boost turned on:
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/p-38j-roll.jpg)
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I don't think it's the dive flap. I think it's the effect from the boosted ailerons that you're noticing, and the same stick movements that you can do in a J will sometimes cause the L to stall.
What stick movements that you can do in the J that would cause you to stall in the L model? The only "issue" I've had in flying the L (at high speeds) is that it takes less stick force to roll the L, and being used to the J model, I tend to use too much force causing to me sometimes "over roll" in the L. Other than that, any other maneuver hasn't caused me to stall like some have mentioned happens to them. The biggest difference in the "feel" between both planes is that the L feels like it's flying on rails compared to the J.
ack-ack
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Well the p38s aren't my #1 ride, but I do enjoy figting in them often. The P38J just out performs the L in a turn circumstance. It is the better dog fighter and to me has a better chance in 1v1 style fight than the P38L. IMO the p38J is the dog fighter plane and L is the attack plane.
I don't know the specifics or specifications of each model. But it is quite obvious to me in the time I've been playing that the J, while slower, is the better dog fighter.
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What stick movements that you can do in the J that would cause you to stall in the L model? The only "issue" I've had in flying the L (at high speeds) is that it takes less stick force to roll the L, and being used to the J model, I tend to use too much force causing to me sometimes "over roll" in the L. Other than that, any other maneuver hasn't caused me to stall like some have mentioned happens to them. The biggest difference in the "feel" between both planes is that the L feels like it's flying on rails compared to the J.
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I meant to phrase it in the sense of my inputs, not the actual stick movements, make it stall, like you just stated. I make it stall, since I apply too much force, as I'm used to flying the J. :)
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The P38J just out performs the L in a turn circumstance.
The P-38J doesn't "out perfrom the L in turn circumstance". At high speeds the L has the edge and at medium to low speeds, it's a wash between the two. The reason why there is a perception that the J is be better "dog fighter" has been due to how both planes are used by players. Because of the way the L model is used by the majority of the players, it has the reputation of being more a dump truck than a fighter like the J model. Of the three P-38s we have in game, the L model is the best and definitive version of the Lightning.
ack-ack
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Rolling faster can cause a stall if you're already close to stalling, as you would be in a knife fight. The angle of attack of the descending wing increases the faster the roll. If the AoA is increased enough the descending wing will stall resulting in a snap roll leaving you inverted or spinning. If you're close to stalling already it doesn't take much to stall that wing; a nervous jerk is enough.
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Rolling faster can cause a stall if you're already close to stalling, as you would be in a knife fight. The angle of attack of the descending wing increases the faster the roll. If the AoA is increased enough the descending wing will stall resulting in a snap roll leaving you inverted or spinning. If you're close to stalling already it doesn't take much to stall that wing; a nervous jerk is enough.
In real life that is true. Is it modeled in the game in that manner?
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In real life that is true. Is it modeled in the game in that manner?
If you hear the stall buffet in AH it means at least a part of one wing has stalled. The wing portion stalls at the critical AoA of the relative wind.
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I'm a whacko that generally flies the L as a fighter. I just like the better roll rate at higher speed than the others but will have to agree it can be a double edged sword at times. You can be in a certain speed range where it seems it will roll you into a spin as it's happened to me plenty of times. Flick over too fast in that range and it seems to me like you get all gyroscopic from the weight of the engines outside your center line and wierd things happen. This doesn't happen when you're fast as there's plenty of other forces keeping you stable. It doesn't happen when very slow either as the roll rate isn't as strong in the P-38 at those speeds and it can't quite get there.
I don't fly the J a whole lot but don't have much problem with it. Because of my time in the L it actually feels comparitively sluggish to me. Surely it's the roll rate but once the speed comes down it's much the same bird to me.
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The reason why there is a perception that the J is be better "dog fighter" has been due to how both planes are used by players. Because of the way the L model is used by the majority of the players, it has the reputation of being more a dump truck than a fighter like the J model.
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I agree and disagree. The majority would use the L for jabo because it has better ord, dive flaps, and overall power. But it is not about reputation. While they are similar, the J is just better to use in the fighter category. It seems to have slightly better fighting performance, not speed or climb type performance, but just how much better in a fighter type situation it is. It is hard to explain but it is noticable.
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. It is hard to explain but it is noticable.
Hate to say it but it's all in your mind.
ack-ack
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It isn't in our minds, AKAK. The snap rolling of the J is definitely different than the L.
I won't say overall performance, or the ability to rate the nose is different. Just the snap roll is different, but again, that could be because of the boosted ailerons may throw off my timing.
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It isn't in our minds, AKAK. The snap rolling of the J is definitely different than the L.
I won't say overall performance, or the ability to rate the nose is different. Just the snap roll is different, but again, that could be because of the boosted ailerons may throw off my timing.
I'm not saying the snap roll is any different, I'm agreeing on that fact. I am totally disagreeing with Violator's comment, which was the J was a better 'fighter' than the L.
ack-ack
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If you hear the stall buffet in AH it means at least a part of one wing has stalled. The wing portion stalls at the critical AoA of the relative wind.
I know that. My question is if the flight model is of a high enough fidelity to model the increase in AOA of the down moving wing when rolling.
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I know that. My question is if the flight model is of a high enough fidelity to model the increase in AOA of the down moving wing when rolling.
Sorry I thought I answered that. Yes. My understanding is that the wings have different lift points, each point has an airflow velocity and AoA which determines the lift for that point at any instant of time. When you roll the airflow velocity and AoA change differently for each point. The combined lift and drag forces are applied to the CG along with all the other forces. Center of pressure changes are also modeled but I don't know if that's done on each lift point.
So if you roll and hear the stall buffet, it means a lift point has exceeded the critical AoA.
The engine management and damage models are deliberately basic but the flight model is the best one I know of.
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Has anybody read an anecdote from WW2 or a veteran describing the different flight characteristics of the early J model and L model?
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Guppy made a couple of posts some years ago and I archived them for just this purpose.
Found that comment by the 38 driver on the SAPP board. Still can't find with 474th book it was from and it's only a small comment where he talks about the J-25 vs the J-15. J-25 being essentially the same as the L-1
"Captain MacKay spent a few minutes in the air, his first flying since his bail out on June 12th. The ex-MIA found the handling of the J-25 somewhat difficult as compared with the controlling of the lighter J-15 he had last flown."
Interesting note about the J-15 being lighter too.
The other quote from Lloyd Wenzel
"Power assist on the controls was on the ailerons only and it made the 38 a differant
bird. Loads on the aileron control were very high and resulted in slow rate of roll and
lots of effort by the pilot. The early versions had problems with the neutral point but
were quickly solved--we all loved alieron boost. The dive brakes were very
effective-electrically accuated and quickly deployed. Being under the outer wing panel,
it was a good idea to deploy them before reaching the critical speed in case only one
deployed and control would be lost. They were hooked up for only both to deploy but who
knows. In low alt work they were not used much unless you were jumped by other birds and
there was occasion for quick descent at times. With low drag, it was easy to get to the
critical Mach. The flat plate area of the bird was about the size of a folding card
table and it went like hell with the nose down."
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Those are some interesting quotes. The one quote comparing the J15 to a J25 suggest the AH model is correct.
As some have suggested, the faster aileron deflection may be creating increased drag around the aileron at slow speeds on the L model when compared to the J. This would be due to a greater and faster deflection in aileron on the L vs J in the same situation. Is that what Captain MacKay may have been experiencing?
Would damping the aileron joystick curve for the L somewhat offset that effect? A test may be in order. Maybe flatting the top of the curve say at 90%.
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As some have suggested, the faster aileron deflection may be creating increased drag around the aileron at slow speeds on the L model when compared to the J. This would be due to a greater and faster deflection in aileron on the L vs J in the same situation. Is that what Captain MacKay may have been experiencing?
I don't believe the ailerons are creating more drag, as I said before I am of the opinion it is mainly user error. Since the L rolls slightly better at low speeds it requires a different amount of stick deflection compared to the G/J. Many of us G/J pilots don't like the L because we tend to use too much aileron inputs giving it the illusion of it dropping a wing in a stall situation.
Would damping the aileron joystick curve for the L somewhat offset that effect? A test may be in order. Maybe flatting the top of the curve say at 90%.
It could at lower speeds but remember the roll rate isn't fixed and changes depending on your airspeed (L improves at higher speed). In the J, I have no aileron dampening at all to help offset the poor roll rate with quicker responses.
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As some have suggested, the faster aileron deflection may be creating increased drag around the aileron at slow speeds on the L model when compared to the J. This would be due to a greater and faster deflection in aileron on the L vs J in the same situation.
I doubt it Randy. The ailerons don't move faster, they are just easier to move. They still only move as fast as the pilot moves the stick.
As a pilot you would notice the lighter control forces, at first that might lead to a bit of over controlling but you quickly adjust. As far as finesse…it's how much you move the stick that matters….how much force you have to use to do so is just something you deal with.
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I need then to go back to the L then and watch closely for an excessive aileron movement on my part to see if I can match the J 's performance.
My personal opinion it is not aileron related but for now, it is the best explanation we have on what some of us see as a difference in the flight performance of the J and L models.
The replies have all been very interesting. I really appreciate the follow up post.
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I need then to go back to the L then and watch closely for an excessive aileron movement on my part to see if I can match the J 's performance.
My personal opinion it is not aileron related but for now, it is the best explanation we have on what some of us see as a difference in the flight performance of the J and L models.
The replies have all been very interesting. I really appreciate the follow up post.
My bet is, that no matter how hard you try, the J will still out maneuver the L. In my experience it is like fighting the K4 vs the G14, while the K4 is faster all around, the G14 seems to out maneuver the K4 slightly.
I got $50 on it!
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According to Mosq's sustained turn list they're both equal in turn without flaps. With flaps the L turns slightly better, but I guess it's well with the margin of error.
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My bet is, that no matter how hard you try, the J will still out maneuver the L. In my experience it is like fighting the K4 vs the G14, while the K4 is faster all around, the G14 seems to out maneuver the K4 slightly.
I got $50 on it!
I think you are right but I am trying to give each theory a go.
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According to Mosq's sustained turn list they're both equal in turn without flaps. With flaps the L turns slightly better, but I guess it's well with the margin of error.
and Mosq's list is correct.
ack-ack
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According to Mosq's sustained turn list they're both equal in turn without flaps. With flaps the L turns slightly better, but I guess it's well with the margin of error.
The sustained turn performance between the J and L was not in question. It is the ability to move the two planes around in low speed situations that is in question.
It could be the L is modeled correctly and the simulation coding used to mimic stiffer, nonboosted ailerons in the J model may offer a small benefit in slow speed maneuvers.
Again, I have zero proof of any of this so I have no argument with those that say it is bunk.
Delirum's post quoting a WW2 P-38 pilot having switched from a nonboosted plane to a boosted plane suggest the AH simulation is dead-solid-perfect. The question then is why would the nonboosted plane seem to fly lighter than the boosted plane?
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Anybody read this document?
DSIR 23/15439
Description:
Lockheed P38 Lightning aircraft fitted with power boosted ailerons: brief handling trials
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Randy1 "flying lighter" does not describe anything unless you're reducing weight which is not the case here. We experience a visual representation of pitch, roll, yaw, and acceleration. Those can all be measured and compared. What we know is different between the J and L models is the degree the aileron deflection is reduced at high speeds.
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What is the weight of both the J and L? Are the essentially the same bird otherwise other than the L is the improved version?
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The weights in the hanger are the same when the loads match. The significant differences between the late model J and the L are the dive flaps and aileron boost. The most noticeable performance difference in AH after the high speed roll rate has been the snap roll behavior.
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Randy1 "flying lighter" does not describe anything unless you're reducing weight which is not the case here. We experience a visual representation of pitch, roll, yaw, and acceleration. Those can all be measured and compared. What we know is different between the J and L models is the degree the aileron deflection is reduced at high speeds.
Flying lighter is just a descriptive phase for the difference in the J model meaning the J model flies as if it were lighter.
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Flying lighter is just a descriptive phase for the difference in the J model meaning the J model flies as if it were lighter.
Aren't you just repeating the phrase? Actually flying as if it was lighter would be measurable in climb rate and turn rate. The known difference in handling is the roll rate. I assume the roll inertia is the same because the total weight is the same but the difference in snap rolls makes me wonder what causes it.
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Aren't you just repeating the phrase? Actually flying as if it was lighter would be measurable in climb rate and turn rate. The known difference in handling is the roll rate. I assume the roll inertia is the same because the total weight is the same but the difference in snap rolls makes me wonder what causes it.
Was the L model the first P-38 with a bit larger fuel tanks? I think each wing leading edge tank had an addtional 55 gallons
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The late model J's also have the additional wing tanks. Note the weights and fuel capacities are the same.
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...the difference in snap rolls makes me wonder what causes it.
I haven't been able to see a difference in handling yet. What is it you're seeing?
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38L follow in to a dive up to about 500-ish, whereas 38j normally pull out earlier.
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I haven't been able to see a difference in handling yet. What is it you're seeing?
The 38J seems to start and stop a snap roll more easily. A few years ago I wasn't able to get more than a quarter roll from the L but it's better now. I don't know if the flight model changed or I did something differently but I couldn't get both models to respond the same way . I was surprised when I tried it again and it worked. It's still a puzzle.
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I haven't been able to see a difference in handling yet. What is it you're seeing?
To me it is getting the nose around a bit better with the J as if it weighed less than the L. The speed range here we talking about is less than 200. Like Triton, I flew the L for a whole tour then went to the J. After a whole tour in the l when you take up the J your mind expects the nose to come around the same but are taken with how smooth the J comes around. Other terms I might use is the J elevator response seems better. The L seems tail heavy.
Not sure one could try one then the other and see the difference.
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Here we go again with "it feels better"...
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Here we go again with "it feels better"...
Not feels . . . is better. Just can't prove it so I have nothing. The J may be the best perk point generator in the game. In real life I would think the boosted ailerons would be super. In AH, not so much. The up-trim is just as good if not better than the dive flap simulation on the L
I know from so many old post I have read, HTC accumulated a lot of data to model each plane. Different sources have different numbers for things like HP, weight, and speed on the J and L models but I am sure they choose the most documented and reliable numbers they could find. After all these years they should be well vetted.
I just keep wondering about the simulated dive flap treatment on the L and the simulated dampened roll rate on the J. Is there a difference modeled in by accident?
Again I have zero proof and lay no claim to an error in HTC modeling of the J and L. I will stand by the L and J fly differently and let it go at that. Both 38s are still supper planes and will always be my favorite.
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If you have no proof or "I have nothing", then the only thing you can have is a "feeling". If you had something more you'd have something more than "nothing".
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If you have no proof or "I have nothing", then the only thing you can have is a "feeling". If you had something more you'd have something more than "nothing".
We posted just about the same time. See the reply just before yours.
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Not feels . . . is better. Just can't prove it so I have nothing. The J may be the best perk point generator in the game. In real life I would think the boosted ailerons would be super. In AH, not so much. The up-trim is just as good if not better than the dive flap simulation on the L
The P-38J is not the best perk farmer in the game, the P-38G is far better in generating perks than the J will ever be. And on top of that, there are far more other planes (like the C202) that are far better in farming perks.
I don't understand your comment about the boosted ailerons. They work on the L in real life as they do in AH, so I'm confused by your comment that they worked in real life but not in AH. No, trimming out of a high speed dive in the P-38J isn't as effective as using the dive flaps in the P-38L in a high speed dive. At least with the P-38L in a high speed dive with the dive flaps employed, you still have limited (although sluggish) control, while at the point you need to use trim to pull out of a dive in the P-38J, you do not have effective control of the Lightning.
I just keep wondering about the simulated dive flap treatment on the L and the simulated dampened roll rate on the J. Is there a difference modeled in by accident?
Again I have zero proof and lay no claim to an error in HTC modeling of the J and L. I will stand by the L and J fly differently and let it go at that. Both 38s are still supper planes and will always be my favorite.
What "simulated dive flap treatment" are you speaking about with the P-38L? Or the "simulated dampened roll rate of the J"? Of course there is going to be a difference in handling between an early P-38J model (like the J we have in game) and the P-38L because of the features introduced with the L model (boosted ailerons, dive flaps, etc).
ack-ack
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From what I read, although the aileron boost increased the roll rate speeds at higher speeds the biggest benefit was reduced pilot arm fatigue for the whole sortie. The L in AH at speeds where the simulated boosted ailerons pays off is often too fast. Only on rare occasions have I wished I had taken the L over the J.
Ran out of time will post more later.
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The boost reduced the stick force by 1/6. It didn't directly increase the roll rate, it just made high roll rates less work for the real pilot. In AH our spring stick force is the same but our "pilot" is strength limited so the J model rolls slower at high speeds from reduced stick response.
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From what I read, although the aileron boost increased the roll rate speeds at higher speeds the biggest benefit was reduced pilot arm fatigue for the whole sortie. The L in AH at speeds where the simulated boosted ailerons pays off is often too fast. Only on rare occasions have I wished I had taken the L over the J.
Ran out of time will post more later.
IIRC, it's at 325mph IAS that the boosted ailerons start to be effective in the P-38L in game.
ack-ack
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Here we go again with "it feels better"...
You are the one bringing in the graphs.
While the inside turn rate may be a tiny bit smaller with flaps. The graphs only show a 2D demintional ideaoligy of one specific part during a fight. Which plane can pull a better loop inside after the turns? Does the slightly slower speed help the J roll better in the scissors? Or maneuver inside better during a scissors? Yes. The L's speed in AH doesn't quite do it justice compared to in real life where they only flew agaisnt the same type of planes.
The G out maneuvers both planes yet is slower, maybe just a tad bit too slow in the skies of AH. Great for perkies. Keep it high!
My arguements toward flight characteristics only partain to AH as comparing them toward real life plane models/pilots isn't fair in comparison. I think the J has better overall flight combat abilities to be successful in the AH skies, and sholtz you can look at AH records over the years to prove that point . While the L can handle turning at higher speeds and is faster AH. It really isn't too much of a difference, especially once you lose E in a loop fight, it could be fatal for the slightly faster plane from a defensive stand point. The dive flaps can be useful in the dive which could allow it to get the kill more quickly in a dive. It all depends on how quickly you can actually get the kill without having to lose too much E in the L model (or any plane with more E)
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The P-38J is not the best perk farmer in the game, the P-38G is far better in generating perks than the J will ever be. And on top of that, there are far more other planes (like the C202) that are far better in farming perks.
Even without looking at the exact ENY-values, I can't see how C.202 is a better perk farming plane than P-38G. The difference in armament alone makes P-38G far better perk farmer.
...as in "bang for the buck".
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38G is the best perk farmer IMO mostly because it still has the peanut butter and chocolate combination that is 50's and Hispanos lined up in the center. The 202 might make you more perks per kill, but you won't kill near as much as you can in the G wagon. :old:
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Best perk-farmer in the game is the Mosquito fighter, bar none.
For ENY 30 you get 4*20mm Hispanos center mounted, and 4 7.7mm peashooters with almost infinite ammunition, also centre mounted, and internal and external bomb load.
Its also plane that can challenge many planes in MA in pure dogfighting.
When I fly the A8 (ENY 20) together with Bozon's Mossie, he out climbs me (with internal bombs) and simply fly away from me and easy out-turns me with bombs, have better endurance, have 2 engines to be smoked instead of one, 4 Hispanos instead of 4*151 and 2*13mm (or in buff-killing mode 2*30mm).
The bad things for the Mossie vs the 190A's is its roll rate, dive speed, shorter WEP, and the Mossie seem to take less hits, and get you PW very easy compared.
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The P-38J is not the best perk farmer in the game, the P-38G is far better in generating perks than the J will ever be. And on top of that, there are far more other planes (like the C202) that are far better in farming perks.
I don't understand your comment about the boosted ailerons. They work on the L in real life as they do in AH, so I'm confused by your comment that they worked in real life but not in AH. No, trimming out of a high speed dive in the P-38J isn't as effective as using the dive flaps in the P-38L in a high speed dive. At least with the P-38L in a high speed dive with the dive flaps employed, you still have limited (although sluggish) control, while at the point you need to use trim to pull out of a dive in the P-38J, you do not have effective control of the Lightning.
What "simulated dive flap treatment" are you speaking about with the P-38L? Or the "simulated dampened roll rate of the J"? Of course there is going to be a difference in handling between an early P-38J model (like the J we have in game) and the P-38L because of the features introduced with the L model (boosted ailerons, dive flaps, etc).
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Finally had time to reply fully.
Although the G gets more perks per kill the J has a better chance to get the kill. The J is the most efficient perk farmer might be a better way to put it.
On boosted ailerons. A bit more to add to my short previous post. I suspect the J model uses a damping subroutine that works much like the scaling in the Joystick control. That damping effect might offer an unexpected benefit in the way of smoother flying and that might be the difference I see. In AH the higher speed the L can roll at higher speeds has a small benefit but not enough to justify the difference in ENY between the J and L in my opinion. In Attack mode the difference in ENY difference is well justified.
On the dive flap in the L. Yes what you say is true Ak-Ak. My point is that if you reach speeds that the dive flaps come into use, you have put yourself in a poor position both offensively and defenselessly. I will note in the Attack mode, on a dive bomb-rocket run I actuate the dive flap as a kind of safety net. I can not say I have pulled out of a dive in the L with dive flaps that I could not pull out the J using up trim. I do fly with manual trim by the way so up trim is easy for me to apply. Now that I have posted that, I can see in Combat Trim, the dive flap would be useful. I think you posted once you use CT.
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Going fast enough to need the dive flaps is why they were installed in the first place. Hard to see their use as putting you in a poor position. The dive flaps allow higher speeds which is also where the boosted ailerons make the biggest difference.
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Going fast enough to need the dive flaps is why they were installed in the first place. Hard to see their use as putting you in a poor position. The dive flaps allow higher speeds which is also where the boosted ailerons make the biggest difference.
Speed control is very important. Too fast and options start going away. That speed is the same with or without dive flap. The dive flap is only for an error in judgement at the altitude most fights occur in AH.
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I've never found the dive flap to be much use because the line between full control and lawndart is still very thin in the 38L. You might be able to hit a higher speed with them deployed, but you're still far better off powering off and slipping her down the same way you would in a J model. I'm not sure if RL pilots felt that way. I kinda doubt it unless Kelly Johnson was an evil SOB and just put some random gadget on there to make the Army feel better.
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I've never found the dive flap to be much use because the line between full control and lawndart is still very thin in the 38L. You might be able to hit a higher speed with them deployed, but you're still far better off powering off and slipping her down the same way you would in a J model. I'm not sure if RL pilots felt that way. I kinda doubt it unless Kelly Johnson was an evil SOB and just put some random gadget on there to make the Army feel better.
It took me awhile to get it through my thick head that the throttle is your friend being just as important as any axis on the joystick.
Lockheed may shaded it a little to the bright side in news releases as problem solved. Seems like I read the big bragging point was a throttle off dive from 20,000 feet at 45 degrees was possible with the dive flap. i have read so much P-38 stuff it is all running together so I might be wrong on the bragging point.