P-38J vs P38L Flight Performance in AH

[FLS]

In real life that is true.  Is it modeled in the game in that manner?

If you hear the stall buffet in AH it means at least a part of one wing has stalled. The wing portion stalls at the critical AoA of the relative wind.

[Drano]

I'm a whacko that generally flies the L as a fighter. I just like the better roll rate at higher speed than the others but will have to agree it can be a double edged sword at times. You can be in a certain speed range where it seems it will roll you into a spin as it's happened to me plenty of times. Flick over too fast in that range and it seems to me like you get all gyroscopic from the weight of the engines outside your center line and wierd things happen. This doesn't happen when you're fast as there's plenty of other forces keeping you stable. It doesn't happen when very slow either as the roll rate isn't as strong in the P-38 at those speeds and it can't quite get there.

I don't fly the J a whole lot but don't have much problem with it. Because of my time in the L it actually feels comparitively sluggish to me. Surely it's the roll rate but once the speed comes down it's much the same bird to me.

[DmonSlyr]

The reason why there is a perception that the J is be better "dog fighter" has been due to how both planes are used by players.  Because of the way the L model is used by the majority of the players, it has the reputation of being more a dump truck than a fighter like the J model. 

ack-ack

I agree and disagree. The majority would use the L for jabo because it has better ord, dive flaps, and overall power.  But it is not about reputation. While they are similar, the J is just better to use in the fighter category. It seems to have slightly better fighting performance, not speed or climb type performance, but just how much better in a fighter type situation it is. It is hard to explain but it is noticable.

[Ack-Ack]

. It is hard to explain but it is noticable.

Hate to say it but it's all in your mind.

ack-ack

[Delirium]

It isn't in our minds, AKAK. The snap rolling of the J is definitely different than the L.

I won't say overall performance, or the ability to rate the nose is different. Just the snap roll is different, but again, that could be because of the boosted ailerons may throw off my timing.

[Ack-Ack]

It isn't in our minds, AKAK. The snap rolling of the J is definitely different than the L.

I won't say overall performance, or the ability to rate the nose is different. Just the snap roll is different, but again, that could be because of the boosted ailerons may throw off my timing.

I'm not saying the snap roll is any different, I'm agreeing on that fact.  I am totally disagreeing with Violator's comment, which was the J was a better 'fighter' than the L.

ack-ack

[colmbo]

If you hear the stall buffet in AH it means at least a part of one wing has stalled. The wing portion stalls at the critical AoA of the relative wind.

I know that.  My question is if the flight model is of a high enough fidelity to model the increase in AOA of the down moving wing when rolling.

[FLS]

I know that.  My question is if the flight model is of a high enough fidelity to model the increase in AOA of the down moving wing when rolling.

Sorry I thought I answered that. Yes. My understanding is that the wings have different lift points, each point has an airflow velocity and AoA which determines the lift for that point at any instant of time. When you roll the airflow velocity and AoA change differently for each point. The combined lift and drag forces are applied to the CG along with all the other forces. Center of pressure changes are also modeled but I don't know if that's done on each lift point.

So if you roll and hear the stall buffet, it means a lift point has exceeded the critical AoA.

The engine management and damage models are deliberately basic but the flight model is the best one I know of. 

[Randy1]

Has anybody read an anecdote from WW2 or a veteran describing the different flight characteristics of the early J model and L model?

[Delirium]

Guppy made a couple of posts some years ago and I archived them for just this purpose.

Found that comment by the 38 driver on the SAPP board.  Still can't find with 474th book it was from and it's only a small comment where he talks about the J-25 vs the J-15.  J-25 being essentially the same as the L-1

"Captain MacKay spent a few minutes in the air, his first flying since his bail out on June 12th.  The ex-MIA found the handling of the J-25 somewhat difficult as compared with the controlling of the lighter J-15 he had last flown."

Interesting note about the J-15 being lighter too.

The other quote from Lloyd Wenzel

"Power assist on the controls was on the ailerons only and it made the 38 a differant
bird.  Loads on the aileron control were very high and resulted in slow rate of roll and
lots of effort by the pilot.  The early versions had problems with the neutral point but
were quickly solved--we all loved alieron boost.  The dive brakes were very
effective-electrically accuated and quickly deployed.  Being under the outer wing panel,
it was a good idea to deploy them before reaching the critical speed in case only one
deployed and control would be lost.  They were hooked up for only both  to deploy but who
knows.  In low alt work they were not used much unless you were jumped by other birds and
there was occasion for quick descent at times.  With low drag, it was easy to get to the
critical Mach.  The flat plate area of the bird was about the size of a folding card
table and it went like hell with the nose down."

[Randy1]

Those are some interesting quotes.  The one quote comparing the J15 to a J25 suggest the AH model is correct.

 As some have suggested, the faster aileron deflection may be creating increased drag around the aileron at slow speeds on the L model when compared to the J. This would be due to a greater and faster deflection in aileron on the L vs J in the same situation. Is that what Captain MacKay may have been experiencing?

Would damping the aileron joystick curve for the L somewhat offset that effect?  A test may be in order.  Maybe flatting the top of the curve say at 90%.

[Delirium]

As some have suggested, the faster aileron deflection may be creating increased drag around the aileron at slow speeds on the L model when compared to the J. This would be due to a greater and faster deflection in aileron on the L vs J in the same situation. Is that what Captain MacKay may have been experiencing?

I don't believe the ailerons are creating more drag, as I said before I am of the opinion it is mainly user error. Since the L rolls slightly better at low speeds it requires a different amount of stick deflection compared to the G/J. Many of us G/J pilots don't like the L because we tend to use too much aileron inputs giving it the illusion of it dropping a wing in a stall situation.

Would damping the aileron joystick curve for the L somewhat offset that effect?  A test may be in order.  Maybe flatting the top of the curve say at 90%.

It could at lower speeds but remember the roll rate isn't fixed and changes depending on your airspeed (L improves at higher speed). In the J, I have no aileron dampening at all to help offset the poor roll rate with quicker responses.

[colmbo]

.

 As some have suggested, the faster aileron deflection may be creating increased drag around the aileron at slow speeds on the L model when compared to the J. This would be due to a greater and faster deflection in aileron on the L vs J in the same situation.

I doubt it Randy.  The ailerons don't move faster, they are just easier to move.  They still only move as fast as the pilot moves the stick.

As a pilot you would notice the lighter control forces, at first that might lead to a bit of over controlling but you quickly adjust.  As far as finesse…it's how much you move the stick that matters….how much force you have to use to do so is just something you deal with.

[Randy1]

I need then to go back to the L then and watch closely for an excessive aileron movement on my part to see if I can match the J 's performance.

 My personal opinion it is not aileron related but for now, it is the best explanation we have on what some of us see as a difference in the flight performance of the J and L models.

The replies have all been very interesting.  I really appreciate the follow up post.

[DmonSlyr]

I need then to go back to the L then and watch closely for an excessive aileron movement on my part to see if I can match the J 's performance.

 My personal opinion it is not aileron related but for now, it is the best explanation we have on what some of us see as a difference in the flight performance of the J and L models.

The replies have all been very interesting.  I really appreciate the follow up post.

My bet is, that no matter how hard you try, the J will still out maneuver the L. In my experience it is like fighting the K4 vs the G14, while the K4 is faster all around, the G14 seems to out maneuver the K4 slightly.

I got $50 on it!