Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Devil 505 on December 05, 2014, 11:57:07 PM
-
So, how about that strike on 131? You Allies forget to attack it or just taking a vacation this week?
-
Snork...like an old dog with the trots, Devil.
No credible force before T+60...It's a outrage!
:salute
-
If it was someones idea to waste 30 peoples Friday night, and you feel that this encourages participation in FSO, then think again.
There was no credible attack on 131 before the 70 min mark or at all unless you count 2 typhies flashing bases as credible.
Whatever, if people really want to play alone or with the very few left in this game, then fine, just don't expect me to show up to this kind of thing.
-
The forces were allocated per the orders.
As you could see from the beginning of the frame, the Allies were down by 30 pilots or so. Need to look at squad participation here.
-
The forces were allocated per the orders.
As you could see from the beginning of the frame, the Allies were down by 30 pilots or so. Need to look at squad participation here.
Were all 30 slated to attack 131? I'd like to see what squads were assigned that objective and see their attendance vs. commitment. With only 2 objectives to attack, this should never happen.
-
Sorry Nef...There is probably an explanation. And you're correct...it's December and it will likely happen again before this FSO is over. But you've never had to fly around behind AKQwik for 2 hours... :eek:
They can't all be corkers...I'm sure somebody found a fight tonight.
:salute
-
Sorry Nef...There is probably an explanation. And you're correct...it's December and it will likely happen again before this FSO is over. But you've never had to fly around behind AKQwik for 2 hours... :eek:
They can't all be corkers...I'm sure somebody found a fight tonight.
:salute
The explanation is in the logs. The Allies were 10 under their minimum numbers of 116 while the Axis were 21 over their minimum numbers of 118. The escort groups of the Strike Groups were asked to fill in for any Typhoons the Strike groups did not launch per the orders, not even that was enough. The Allies plan was predominately defensive based, but we maintained the FSO requirements per the objectives.
You gotta show up, If you don't? Adjust your numbers so the CMs and CICs can know what were working with.
-
We were supposed to protect our base as #1 mission, we did that! Those of my group still able rearmed with bombs ( yes we knew we were under staffed and out gunned from the get go so we upped heavy at the start and dumped ord at the beginning)! We attacked 131 with heavy 38's and got plastered so don't tell me we did not try! We normally fly Axis but went allied because we thought it looked like it would be skewed numbers. Believe me we were pedaling as fast as we could! :huh
-
I think everyone did the best they could, given what was assigned. through no fault of anyone's things didn't work out the way they were supposed to.
I think we should just try to fix it and go on... stuff happens, and sometimes things just don't work out the way you want them to.
personally if I had known, no one was hitting 131, I would have volunteered JG54 to hit it. unfortunately all the plans were laid, and
people were expected to follow their assignments. lets just realize we had a problem, try to fix it, and move on!
for the record: to all CM's and CIC's JG54 is always willing to take up the slack where ever its needed, even if its last minute!
Was fun last night even with the faux pa, lets do it again next week!!
-
These things happen, Pops. Just think of how awesome FSO would be if the planning was done at the Salt Lick. :cheers:
:salute
-
We were supposed to protect our base as #1 mission, we did that! Those of my group still able rearmed with bombs ( yes we knew we were under staffed and out gunned from the get go so we upped heavy at the start and dumped ord at the beginning)! We attacked 131 with heavy 38's and got plastered so don't tell me we did not try! We normally fly Axis but went allied because we thought it looked like it would be skewed numbers. Believe me we were pedaling as fast as we could! :huh
Pops, I'm referring to the planned attack of 131 before T+60.
Thanks for leading the remnants of your squad to 131 later. Your P-38 was the only con I saw all night, and that was well after T+60. :cheers:
-
I've been on defense at least twice, where we NEVER saw an enemy. Whether it was due to our outbound force stumbling across an incoming force and disregarding orders and other's fun and wiped them out, or the incoming force just plain attacked the wrong target. It happens and we move on.
-
As far as the attack on 131 goes.. there were 2 squads assigned that had registration commitments of 11-15 and 7-10.
So there should have been 18 - 25 aircraft in the attack group. Certainly a 'viable force' for FSO purposes.
The 11-15 squad only fielded 6 pilots and they managed to take out 2 FHs at 131 before being decimated at T+40. 1 survivor after initial strike.. none by end of frame.
The 7-10 squad only fielded 5 pilots and their task was escort. I don't know what they did or where they were, but one survivor managed to make a secondary strike and take out an ammo at 131.
So, from the logs, an effort was made to plan for a viable attack.. it just didn't work out that way.
As to how it may have been prevented, the options are pretty limited... especially when one of the aircraft involved is a restricted use ( Typhoon ) bird that causes headaches for making sure you don't exceed the allotment.
Couple that with how many squads don't know their actual strength until after launch time, as we all have folks popping in at the absolute last second to make the frame. That makes last-minute task-reassignment almost impossible.
It's annoying when you plan and wait and fly around and never get to shoot at anything.. by golly, I've been there many times myself.. Chances are, tho.. the guys you should have been able to shoot at probably got their butts kicked and prematurely found themselves in the tower, for whatever reason.. Which, IMHO, is far more painful and depressing than flying around for, ultimately, no reason.
Stuff happens. It just makes you enjoy the times when things work out correctly even more.
:salute
-
Now that would be cool! :aok
These things happen, Pops. Just think of how awesome FSO would be if the planning was done at the Salt Lick. :cheers:
:salute
-
Looks like they tried to get it done but just did not have the numbers/luck. Stuff happens! I'll try to live longer in the future so more guys can shoot at me! lol
Pops, I'm referring to the planned attack of 131 before T+60.
Thanks for leading the remnants of your squad to 131 later. Your P-38 was the only con I saw all night, and that was well after T+60. :cheers:
-
.
-
In Frame 1, while flying north on an offensive sweep of the area around Cherbourg, JG11 stumbled upon a south-bound force of bomb-armed Typhoons, and attacked. A few were shot down, and many jettisoned ordnance. Maybe this RAF force was intended to hit A131?
-
In Frame 1, while flying north on an offensive sweep of the area around Cherbourg, JG11 stumbled upon a south-bound force of bomb-armed Typhoons, and attacked. A few were shot down, and many jettisoned ordnance. Maybe this RAF force was intended to hit A131?
Not likely, 131 was the farthest east objective. All the Axis targets were in the west.
I'm sure it was just bad luck that most the short attended squads were assigned to one target.
-
Not likely, 131 was the farthest east objective. All the Axis targets were in the west.
I'm sure it was just bad luck that most the short attended squads were assigned to one target.
Correct. No chance they were heading A131.
And for the record it was my call to attack, and mine alone. We had no idea these single engine contacts were heavy, and they were - when spotted, heading directly toward the Axis bombers we were tasked with clearing a path for. Very interesting how we can all experience such different circumstances in the same single frame of action. We saw more reds than we could count, and 19/20 of my ships did not return home. We got pasted, and pasted hard - probably needed, certainly long overdue, and only confirms my long standing position, that anything can happen during a Friday Night mission, and any team can defeat another on any given Friday night.
-
Correct. No chance they were heading A131.
And for the record it was my call to attack, and mine alone. We had no idea these single engine contacts were heavy, and they were - when spotted, heading directly toward the Axis bombers we were tasked with clearing a path for. Very interesting how we can all experience such different circumstances in the same single frame of action. We saw more reds than we could count, and 19/20 of my ships did not return home. We got pasted, and pasted hard - probably needed, certainly long overdue, and only confirms my long standing position, that anything can happen during a Friday Night mission, and any team can defeat another on any given Friday night.
<S> JG11, you guys fought a hard fight Friday night.
-
Very interesting how we can all experience such different circumstances in the same single frame of action. We saw more reds than we could count, and 19/20 of my ships did not return home...and only confirms my long standing position, that anything can happen during a Friday Night mission, and any team can defeat another on any given Friday night.
:salute Stampf
The FSO frame is a very big container, indeed. When you think about battle evolution in terms of time-slices, it certainly puts things into perspective.
Your time slice was 'Holy Mother of Pearl!' and our slice, after cause and effect, was 'It's a Outrage'. Much easier to understand when you think about it in those terms. And it supports one of the best reasons to fly FSO...you can never truly predict what you're going to get.
The logs revealed one large truth about commitment. It's difficult to populate FSO's that occur during holiday seasons. Perhaps, all squadrons could provide the FSO CM's with a special numbers estimate for the remainder of FSO today or tomorrow? If numbers truly drive things, then it wouldn't hurt.
Seasons Greetings to all.
:salute
-
^^ I agree. It's certainly not the planner's fault (Bino is a great guy, and reading the plans today myself that have been issued to COs and such from his posts, shows to me that he put a lot of effort in). Like Stampf said, you never know quite what can happen, as rare as it was for JG 11 to run into swarms and be wiped out, it's just as rare to not run into any enemy at all - and both of these events happen to his and the squad I flew with on the same night. That pretty much proves the theory from both ends of the spectrum IMO.
However, as the previous poster has stated, holiday seasons should be a time where players to extra care with regards to commitment, so their COs can give those planning events during these times the most accurate info they can. I'm the worst person in the world to be pointing this out, as it's been years since I've bothered flying FSO, and when I did, I found the time put into climbing and touring about waiting intolerable, and often didn't show when I was supposed to have. So, in effect, it's people like me (circa 2012 at least) that are causing this problem. I came very close to not showing up Friday, but had given my word I would, and did - a trend I plan on following in the future now.
I would like to see some JG11 videos of this FSO, it sounds like quite a fight - even some SS would be cool.
-
Historically, the winter months are the FSO peak season. Even with the holidays in November and December, Attendance usually surges through these months and levels off again when Spring comes and the weather improves and Days grow longer. FSO is scheduled not to interfere with holidays like Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year.
Frame 1 of this event was about average for the last two months. (245 players recorded in the logs) I think the issue here is not the season, but the fact that a lot of the squads on the Allied side were squads that regularly field less pilots than what the Axis had. If you put all the squads who regularly have above average attendance on one side, and all the squads who regularly have below average attendance on the others, you will produce results like we saw in Frame 1.
This is not a pick or stab at Bino because he produces quality FSOs and we work with the system we have for FSO that has always been used in splitting sides. The system we use to split the squads uses a number scale we are all familiar with (4-6, 7-10 etc), and of course we allow the squads to work with -/+2 of those numbers. That reason, I believe is a part of the problem. I have tried to think of new ways to do this and when I split sides, I try to keep these averages in mind. It's not easy, and I have been bitten several times. Then of course, you have squads that always want to fly Allied or Axis, this plays a big part in attendance. You got a squad that typically flies Luftwaffe or Allied and switch them, well, they might now show up. It's all part of the things we as Admins try to anticipate, doesn't always work as intended though.
<S>
-
Well I think the admins do a pretty good job for the most part. I know nef takes this job very serious, heck he even had my squad move from one team to another team because they didn't have enough players and we got slaughtered, so if he is willing to do that to his own squad ya'll ought to give him a break. You know I remember now why I quit fso years ago and it was the back biting.
salute
ab8aac/dmdchief
-
a trend I plan on following in the future now.
I would like to see some JG11 videos of this FSO, it sounds like quite a fight - even some SS would be cool.
This is good news, G - as you are far to good a man to be on the sidelines. I failed to roll film Friday so can offer only a brief written AAR of the nights action. My apologies.
The night began as usual with myself logging into the Arena around 10:30 PM EST - to find a few of my men already there. Almost all my guys are considerate enough to be in the Arena by 10:45PM EST - which makes my life and role all the more easy. Up until 10:55 we shoot the bull, laugh a lot and generally discuss anything under the sun while I work out flight assignments based on attendance. At this time I usually give my amateur historical take on the real war actions that the frame/Operation is based on to immerse the guys and begin focusing on the task at hand. I lay out my Operational plan to the guys, what I think we will face and how we will find the victory. Victory is never in doubt, ever. From this time until the last man lands or gets shot down I make up for my personal lackings through unwavering enthusiasm, optimism and confidence in the guys. Generally we spawn under the belief that the mission is already won, all the foemen destroyed, and the only thing left to do it actually fly it. Right wrong, or irrelevant - this is my style of leadership.
Frame 1 was no different. 20 men ended up ready to fly - and I gave out flight assignments breaking the group up into 5 equal schwarmen. Fields opened and we spawned to the runway. We often spawn from the Hanger to increase immersion even further, but I was playing a fuel load gamble and wanted the guys out on the strip and shut down as soon as possible. We spawned and shut down. The Ju88's of the 162nd. FG. and their AoM escort was launching from a different field then we were, and Mission CO - 'Wieser' of the 162nd informed me he wished to see JG 11 run north, screening to the west, and destroy or displace enemy CAP by T+50. - the time he planned on his first wave to arrive over target. From my seat - looking around at 20 strong 190's, I was supremely confidant that we would easily smash all the defenders and get the 88's both into the target and back home again. I was grossly mistaken in the event, as we would find out later on. My only real concern was altitude that the enemy defenders would be at. Flying Luftwaffe planes all the time, you get used to engaging and fighting from an altitude disadvantage, as you yourself know our planes simply don't function above 25K - but we have gotten accustomed to it and actually enjoy the thrill and reward of taking victory from a disadvantage, so it was not an overly large concern. I've seen these guys pull it off so many times now that I simply don't consider it for more than a brief moment. Some of the newer guys gasp when I lead us into a cloud of red that has a 5K alt advantage on us - but soon come to realize that through teamwork anything can be accomplished.
T plus 5 and the order to spin wood was given. we formed up and headed north as planned. First 17 minutes and 2 -1/2 sectors were uneventful with dead silent vox and all comms taking place on squadron text. We rallied with the strike group and then both groups set off in good order on the planned routes of attack, keeping regular text com sit/rep reports flowing between the groups and we entered the red zone. First contact was just south of the target sector line - a group of single engine co -alt contacts flying south down our left side straight toward the last reported and known position of the 88's. They showed no interest in us - only confirming what I believed at that moment, that they were enemy CAP out hunting the heavies. I gave the order to break left and attack. As we closed it became apparent that I was mistaken (my first of several this night) and that these were Typoons and that they were heavy with ordinance. I let the boys know we would make one pass and one pass only on them and then reverse course back to the North. In the lead, I closed first and the Typh's began to maneuver and some pickled their eggs as well. I came up under a straight and level flying Typh and let off a short burst of quad 20 mil - scoring direct hits all across and down the fuselage of the enemy plane which pitched hard right and rolled over under my nose out of immediate sight. I called 'Typh down' and reversed my course 180 degrees instructing the rest to do so as well. I heard a squadmate call out that the Typh was still flying and actually trying to get back up to me, but I knew he was dead, as I saw his radiator burst a leak after I struck so disregarded that, and him altogether. (this would indeed be a kill later in the logs for me).
Satisfied we had spoiled a potential Allied attack somewhere to the south, we proceeded back on our Northerly sweep route, though now I was worried that we had lingered and or been dragged to far south and that the real possibility now existed that we would be late to the party and leave the88's without adequate cover or any disruption to the A119 CAP whatsoever. This has me worried - I was already a bit peeved that the Typhs were heavy and meant to be someone else's action for the night, now coupled with the real fears of mission failure I ordered best speed level flight to the North. (potential second error). We were a bit strung out but I still thought we could handle whatever was about to be found. First in was a group of Lightnings down our right side about 8 K above us. I ordered everyone to ignore them and keep pushing North. Next a group a jugs angled in from the North Easy also considerable higher than us. I almost turned and fought right there but wanted desperately to close in closer on the target area so again ordered everyone to ignore the Jugs and keep pressing. (mistake #3). I wanted to get all the foemen in one place before engaging. A second group of Lightnings then appeared on our right side and I saw them maneuvering to drop in on us. Just then I spotted yet another group of Lightnings coming straight at us from the North and as soon as we merged I called fight on - and the mosh erupted. I had in fact given too much advantage to the foemen and now we faced better than 2-1 odds from an alt disadvantage as well. Though I remained confident on kombat vox I knew we were in for it, and the calls of men going down began to flutter across the airwaves. Refusing to give in, I latched onto a Jug and pursued him down to medium alts with SNO - my wingman right behind me. I destroyed the Jug and we hurriedly attempted to reform on the main action. I could tell from VOX flow we were losing the fight, but Honcho was on his game, knocking one enemy down after another which gave me heart, and when SNO and I arrived back at the swirling mess of fighters we tried to bring the fight down to co alt as it was plain to see the Allies were playing it right, and staying on top - not giving up their advantage. This appeared to initially work and for a brief moment I thought we would prevail, but there was simply too many of them and one by one the remainder of us were shot down. My wingman went in and I took an oil hit from a Typhoon and lost a wingtip to a Lightning - (apparently they never did make their attack but followed us back to the fight)(?)
Trying to escape - a Typhoon spotted me and followed me for the kill. I thought I could shake him or get him to auger but when I heard him chop throttle I knew He was not a novice, and he promptly ended my night with a burst to the skull from point blank range. Back in the tower I encouraged the boys to keep at them but by this time there were too few of us left and finally Zoney disengaged - the only survivor of a 20 ship strong force. We never did even penetrate the radar ring of the A119 target, but this turned out to be a good thing as it allowed the bombers to make a clean bombing run from the west and flatten the target before also being set upon and destroyed by the CAP returning from our fight. I watched from the tower as Zoney landed, and I made the comment of "You took off an hour ago with 19 mates - and you are the only man returning home. how's that for immersion heh?"
Been a long time since I got my whole command killed, but in the end the mission succeeded at great cost, and as a leader, I learned both a few tactical lessons as well as enjoying a large portion of humble pie. That's about it in a nutshell. We ended up taking 10 enemy down with us before the end but hats off to the Allied defenders for the way you played it, the spirit you fought it with, and the intensity level of the fight. For what amounted basically a slaughter of my men - we all had a good, fun, white knuckled time of it while it lasted. This is my perspective of the night and could differ substantially from another's of course. Maybe one of the other guys has some SS's to share.
<S>
-
Well I think the admins do a pretty good job for the most part. I know nef takes this job very serious, heck he even had my squad move from one team to another team because they didn't have enough players and we got slaughtered, so if he is willing to do that to his own squad ya'll ought to give him a break. You know I remember now why I quit fso years ago and it was the back biting.
salute
ab8aac/dmdchief
I appreciate the comments, but I'm not sure if anybody was personally going after me. :) This thread is a good venue for discussion on FSO as the problem was identified and it can be looked at from both the players and Admin CMs side for changes.
-
just a minute.
you attacked a flight element knowing full well they were not defenders of you buffs target?
First contact was just south of the target sector line - a group of single engine co -alt contacts flying south down our left side straight toward the last reported and known position of the 88's. They showed no interest in us - only confirming what I believed at that moment, that they were enemy CAP out hunting the heavies. I gave the order to break left and attack. As we closed it became apparent that I was mistaken (my first of several this night) and that these were Typoons and that they were heavy with ordinance. I let the boys know we would make one pass and one pass only on them and then reverse course back to the North.
Satisfied we had spoiled a potential Allied attack somewhere to the south, we proceeded back on our Northerly sweep route, though now I was worried that we had lingered and or been dragged to far south and that the real possibility now existed that we would be late to the party and leave the88's without adequate cover or any disruption to the A119 CAP whatsoever. This has me worried - I was already a bit peeved that the Typhs were heavy and meant to be someone else's action for the night,
-
Is this troll #1?
-
.
-
My squad was patrolling east of 119. Heard the spotting of the Ju88 coming in from the west. Got there just in time to kill half the bombers before they dropped on target. I believe most of the escorts were low by then.
-
I remember jg54 doing that once by accident, stampf..... guess that happens now and then, not really a big deal... <S>
-
I remember jg54 doing that once by accident, stampf..... guess that happens now and then, not really a big deal... <S>
Situations were nothing alike, but you are correct, J...it happens. <S>
-
Situations were nothing alike, <S>
Nothing alike?
JG54 happened upon a flight that was not their assignment. The CO allowed his pilots
to make one pass only. A melee ensued and planes were shot down.
JG11 happens upon a flight that is not only, not their assignment, but is not even a threat to their assignment.
Still the CO tells his pilots to make a pass at this flight. A melee ensues and planes are shot down.
Nothing alike!