Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: jolly22 on December 06, 2014, 10:05:47 AM
-
Where has FSO gone. I've flown maybe 3 FSO's since I've came back 2 months ago. I used to fly EVERY FSO event 5-6 years ago.
It used to be a blast. The FSO leaders gave us a target, and we would collaborate with other squads on the same targets and figure out a game plan. Loadout, flight path, egress pattern, rally points. It gave us a sense of accomplishment when we had a successful run. Now a days, the FSO side leaders give us VERY specific orders. That's no fun.
Squad Ops, should be squadrons working together to reach a common goal. It sort of is now, but it's not as fun as it used to be. I'm part of the Claim Jumpers who volunteered as JU88s for this frame. Guess what our orders were. Fly STRAIGHT to target with NO FORMATIONS at 21k. Wow. Not like the allies will be expecting that or anything. So we said screw it. At least give us a flying chance. We went NOE. It was so much more fun dieing like that. Granted, none of us made it to target. NBD, but it was OUR idea to give it a shot. IT failed. Oh well. On to the next.
What I'm asking for, is a change in the strategic rolls from CiCs to the Squad leaders. The CiCs give us the planes, base, target and that's it. The squad leaders work together to figure out a plan, send that plan back to the CiC for approval.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
:salute
JRjolly
-
Somebody will eventually explain this better than I can.
All who do planning in FSO are volunteers with varying amounts of experience. CiC operational orders are defined by the stated objectives for the frame.
Operational orders are suggestions in reality because no plan survives first contact with the enemy. I don't like highly detailed orders from the CiC or complex timing and integration because of this. I just want to see a task order that includes target and supporting units (and any intel on opposition).
We will often make suggestions to the CiC before Friday so they have an idea where we will deviate from their plan. That's a courtesy depending on how early the orders are received. Most CiC's are open to communication and discussion. Some are not.
The most important aspect of the frame is to accomplish the objective even if it takes 'local discretion' to get it done.
That's what I think, based on doing FSO's since 2008. But I could be wrong, of course. :cool:
Whether an FSO is 'awesome' or not depends entirely on your local perspective of events. The events are usually very dynamic and some nights you get caviar and some nights, not so much. That's not a new characteristic, I'm thinking.
:salute
-
Well thought out and written orders should be simple, easy to understand and achievable.
I don't think in WW2 the commanders said: "You lot go attack that base within an hour...you lot try to escort them...oh, and you guys go meet up with these guys and attack that base over there - you'll have a fighter sweep somewhere around the target sometime around when you decide to get there."
I think there needs to be some coordinating efforts in the CiC orders, and those orders need to be distributed a few days early to allow squads time to more deeply coordinate efforts...and maybe try to fly historic profiles instead of standard MA tactics.
-
Yea that's all what I'm getting at..
Receiving very specific orders from a CiC ruins the teamwork aspect of FSO. Tell us what to fly, our objectives, and what base to fly out of. Maybe try to lean us towards one direction, but let the squads come up with the game plane.
-
The problem is balancing real life with the game. I'm sure many orders are thrown together very quickly because people have other stuff to do. Meanwhile, others can put plenty of time and effort into planning and more often than not it pays off. The problem lies in the fact that usually when a CiC realizes he can't put a lot of time into orders, it is too late.
You've also got squads who want to coordinate and those who just don't care. Any orders I've written give suggestions as to what routes to take, but I generally left it up to the squads to coordinate and figure out what they think is best. After all, they are the ones working together, not me.
-
Receiving very specific orders from a CiC ruins the teamwork aspect of FSO. Tell us what to fly, our objectives, and what base to fly out of. Maybe try to lean us towards one direction, but let the squads come up with the game plan.
Wow...I see this as being the problem.
Within the past year or so, what I've mostly seen from CiC's amount to nothing more than plane and target assignments. While this would fine if the Squadrons would communicate pre-frame, only a few do this on a consistent basis and proves to be the exception rather than the rule.
A CiC offering a reasonably detailed plan offers a coordinated approach. However, during the 20+ times I've CiC'd a frame (several years ago) I always assigned a squadron lead to coordinate and always gave that lead the option to change the plan. If nobody talked to one another at least there was a viable plan to start with.
What I fear FSO is de-evolving to is a one-life MA.
-
Wow...I see this as being the problem.
Within the past year or so, what I've mostly seen from CiC's amount to nothing more than plane and target assignments. While this would fine if the Squadrons would communicate pre-frame, only a few do this on a consistent basis and proves to be the exception rather than the rule.
A CiC offering a reasonably detailed plan offers a coordinated approach. However, during the 20+ times I've CiC'd a frame (several years ago) I always assigned a squadron lead to coordinate and always gave that lead the option to change the plan. If nobody talked to one another at least there was a viable plan to start with.
What I fear FSO is de-evolving to is a one-life MA.
Exactly. I'm expecting it's turning into that as well..
It's a stretch, especially with our current numbers, but what if we decided to start disbanding the squadrons who don't take FSO as seriously. FSO is a HUGE event for some squads. And having 2-3 squads on our side who don't really give a crap is running the strategic operations value of the event.
I think we're all in agreence, so far, that something needs to change to allow the PLAYERS the opportunity to come up with a strategic plan.
-
Meh. It's all about the people and what they want out of the frame. Me? I like the strategy too. I was a squad CO for years and was glad to take the time to come out with something OTHER than a "fly straight from point A to point B" sort of a plan when it was my turn to be side CO. I always hated plans like that. Even so, a lot of times even tho I took a lot of time out of my week and especially my flying to test fly the routes and make sure my plan would time out right, squads would just ignore it and go in however they wanted and what I had planned on being a somewhat co-ordinated attack turned into a cluster. Pretty annoying.
But then there's the other side of it too. If you're on defense you don't want to be doing a lot of boring holes in the sky with nothing to shoot at. So I get that too. I'm pretty sure I'm one of the reasons there's the 1 hour rule. I used to make plans that allowed the minimum ammount of time to RTB from a target by endframe hoping the CAP fighters were out of fuel by the time we got there. Worked like a champ a few times but I gotta admit I see where it wouldn't have been much fun for the defenders.
Some people like the whole strategery thing. Some don't. Some are just in it for the plane matchups. Sometimes squads don't like what they're flying that particular frame and most or all just don't show up. Can't really fix that at T+0. It is what it is. Personally, I'm all about the mission. I could care less if they gave me a tricycle. :aok :salute
-
All CiCs have a different style of command. FSO is designed to be "open ended" re things like CiC command and control. That being said you can usually have some latitude when it comes to commanding your squad in battle. Have some patience with it, give some input and see where you can add your own touch to a sides plans.
...and HAVE FUN. Thats FSO Rule #1 !
;)
-
When I do orders, I usually only assign planes and targets. Sometimes I will include a map with "recommended" flight paths, but everything is left up to the squadrons.
-
NOE usually fail these days. Most commanders guard against them by setting a mid alt cap to look for the buffs on the deck.
Best chance is to use a sweep and try to time it so the sweep hits just at the right time while the bombers follow on there tails, Too early for the sweep and the defenders will climb back up, too late and the defenders will avoid the sweep and go straight for the bombers. It is a fine line between success and failure, in any venture in FSO because of the vast amount of talent that has grown over the years.
:salute
-
...and HAVE FUN. Thats FSO Rule #1 !
Fair enough.
After a 2 year span of not flying FSO, last night I gave it another whirl. Didn't see a single red guy in an hour and a half. It was still fun joking around on vox though at least with guys I hadn't flown with in ages. Just not as much "fun" as it's supposed to be. At least my accuracy rating in score wasn't hurt, landing with full magazines, haha.
I would say, based on the other thread, that if the problems with lack of action was a numbers/lack of guys showing up issue, that in the future, if whomever is in "command" (snicker) identifies this problem, to put out a call for a squad on the side with more to rapidly switch sides, and be given snap orders (how tough could that be, considering from what I've read here today that orders are pretty much - here is your aircraft type, and this is your target or defense location, and have a nice day). I would gladly have switched over, and I'm sure the rest of the squad would have as well, to P38s, Typhoons, whatever. Heh, it would even be a lot of fun, sort of like a scramble mission, where you don't get time, you just have to go fight.
-
when im cic I try to give map, targets and planes and take off bases, and escorts if you're in bombers..... how you get there, via what path, high or low or whatever, that's up to you and teamwork.
the other problem is, how do you know you're gonna be short 30 guys when the frame starts??? riddle me this! theres no way to predict something like that.
-
the other problem is, how do you know you're gonna be short 30 guys when the frame starts??? riddle me this! theres no way to predict something like that.
Well, that was exactly my point - there may be no way to "predict" it, but it certainly should and could be noticed at the beginning of the frame during the warning time to take offs given by the CiC. At the start of the frame, if such a discrepancy is noted, swift simple action of putting out a call in the CiC Blue letters that "This event will be extremely boring due to xyz not showing up, for several squads unless one/two/whatever of you is wiling to switch sides and accept a mission with snap/scramble orders given". Again, I for one would love a chance to do that, for nothing else but for the feeling of just hopping into a historical emergency scramble mission with little info/intel, as well as the obvious increase in chance of finding somebody to fight with.
It would have worked great for this last Friday's FSO, if one squad, say ours or the AKs who were in our area with one other squad, had switched to Allies and attacked - and the same being done in any other area where no enemies were even seen, if that happened. Hindsight is easy to pick stuff apart, and again, I suppose for "historical" accuracy, many missions would be flown without seeing a single enemy aircraft. I don't think that's the experience anyone would want for FSO however. I would just say for future reference, if this same sort of imbalance - which is what those in charge have said caused the lack of action in our sector of several L/W squads - happens again, just put out a request for a squad to jump sides for the benefit of all, so everyone has a chance of mixing it up in some fashion at least.
-
actually all they had to do was to change JG54 from defense to attack on 131 with 26's and we would've wiped the place out.... theres no stopping us you know!! LOL... :airplane:
but again how do you do that at T-1.... theres no way to realize a shortage even 10 minutes before the frame, most of my guys don't show up til T-3.....
I would suggest maybe having a squad that could change at a moments notice, but that's not really fair to the planners and the CIC's.... would it work sure,
but think about it, you got your orders, you practice for 2 days in plane A, and all of a sudden, you get reassigned plane b, target X because not enough
people show up.
its a tough balancing act on everyone's part, and sometime we just have to suck it up...... with a straw! :)
-
I was flying for Allied so I did not see the Axis orders, but it is a little puzzling to me that a line on a map linking the launch base to the target with a note that the max bomber altitude was 21k was interpreted as route that had to be flown without question. And even if that was the "strategic plan" it was not followed. So it sounds to me that the tactical planning is already left to the squad leaders and no further action is required.
:cheers:
-
Actually think about the side switching thing. It's not the MA or even the AvA. I mean if you know the plan of attack and defense for your side.... And then you switch sides.... I'd think the howls of "spiez!" would be deafening. Saying.
-
Perhaps FSO should have an arena lock before the event starts. Maybe not the T-30 like Scenarios but maybe a T-15 lock. It's frustrating for squad leaders having to scramble to get everything squared away in less than 5 min. For the CiC it's even more crazy. Having a set time before launch that all pilots must be in arena allows the CiC time to check the roster and possibly fill any gaps in attendance by shifting units.
-
Perhaps FSO should have an arena lock before the event starts. Maybe not the T-30 like Scenarios but maybe a T-15 lock. It's frustrating for squad leaders having to scramble to get everything squared away in less than 5 min. For the CiC it's even more crazy. Having a set time before launch that all pilots must be in arena allows the CiC time to check the roster and possibly fill any gaps in attendance by shifting units.
Our squad has a requirement, that if you're flying FSO, you need to be there 15 minutes before the start. So I believe it's a good idea.
-
...So we said screw it. At least give us a flying chance. We went NOE. It was so much more fun dieing like that. Granted, none of us made it to target. NBD, but it was OUR idea to give it a shot. IT failed. Oh well. On to the next.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
:salute
JRjolly
Occassionally VF-17 has been assigned as fighter escort, or sweep, only to have our charges elect to go NOE. Our feelings on buffs going NOE (when not designed that way) is that you're on yer own. Especially if we're on sweep and we knock 'em down for ya, expecting you to be at your assigned alt, only to find you went NOE because you wanted a little excitement. Well, we end up laughing our arses off when we start reading the whines on the text buffer about every buff getting wiped out because they ran into a gaggle of enemy fighters ALREADY LOW. Actually it's very frutrating to us, because the JRs feel very responsible for every BUFF we're assigned to protect, and take it hard when any of them get shot down. :x
-
Occassionally VF-17 has been assigned as fighter escort, or sweep, only to have our charges elect to go NOE. Our feelings on buffs going NOE (when not designed that way) is that you're on yer own. Especially if we're on sweep and we knock 'em down for ya, expecting you to be at your assigned alt, only to find you went NOE because you wanted a little excitement. Well, we end up laughing our arses off when we start reading the whines on the text buffer about every buff getting wiped out because they ran into a gaggle of enemy fighters ALREADY LOW. Actually it's very frutrating to us, because the JRs feel very responsible for every BUFF we're assigned to protect, and take it hard when any of them get shot down. :x
+1
-
Occassionally VF-17 has been assigned as fighter escort, or sweep, only to have our charges elect to go NOE. Our feelings on buffs going NOE (when not designed that way) is that you're on yer own. Especially if we're on sweep and we knock 'em down for ya, expecting you to be at your assigned alt, only to find you went NOE because you wanted a little excitement. Well, we end up laughing our arses off when we start reading the whines on the text buffer about every buff getting wiped out because they ran into a gaggle of enemy fighters ALREADY LOW. Actually it's very frutrating to us, because the JRs feel very responsible for every BUFF we're assigned to protect, and take it hard when any of them get shot down. :x
Well here's what tends to happen on almost every FSO when we get a single bomber, of almost anything. (at least with a box we can protect ourselves). We come in at 21k. Fair enough. Our escorts do a great job at clearing the skies in our path by making them hit the deck. GREAT. But then what. We're left to fend for ourselves by another wave of high fighters coming in. And this is where we get slaughtered by having no high alt escort groups. Even if there were a high alt escort group with us. Because we only have one JU88 with the tiniest of armament, it'll take the enemy squadron one sweep and 50% of us are dead.
I'm just stating my opinions here guys, I respect FSO and their ideas and all who participate. I just feel like it's shifted from player bases orders to CiC orders.
:salute
JRjolly
-
We come in at 21k. Fair enough. Our escorts do a great job at clearing the skies in our path by making them hit the deck. GREAT. But then what. We're left to fend for ourselves by another wave of high fighters coming in. And this is where we get slaughtered by having no high alt escort groups. Even if there were a high alt escort group with us. Because we only have one JU88 with the tiniest of armament, it'll take the enemy squadron one sweep and 50% of us are dead.
That is just poor discipline on the part of the escorts if that indeed is the case. Yes! push them low...But do not pursue.
Any Escort assigned close in High Alt work should always operate with a hard deck assigned - and envelope of air space protection around the bombers that no one is allowed to violate - unless pressed into a defensive posture. To leave the bombers up top alone is madness.
-
Occassionally VF-17 has been assigned as fighter escort, or sweep, only to have our charges elect to go NOE. Our feelings on buffs going NOE (when not designed that way) is that you're on yer own. Especially if we're on sweep and we knock 'em down for ya, expecting you to be at your assigned alt, only to find you went NOE because you wanted a little excitement. Well, we end up laughing our arses off when we start reading the whines on the text buffer about every buff getting wiped out because they ran into a gaggle of enemy fighters ALREADY LOW. Actually it's very frutrating to us, because the JRs feel very responsible for every BUFF we're assigned to protect, and take it hard when any of them get shot down. :x
This is why, when I write orders, I assign flight lead status to the main attacking squad. The intent behind doing so is this: The main attacking squad knows their best and preferred method of attacking. All other squads are to help make their job easier. If that squad wants to go NOE, that's their decision, and they'll have an idea on how best to use the assigned fighter cover to their advantage - probably not by sweeping directly ahead of them.
I also use this strategy for Squads defending an objective. Flight lead status is given to the squad given the best bomber killing fighter. That squad then uses the other assets to ensure the best chances for their own success.
-
That is just poor discipline on the part of the escorts if that indeed is the case. Yes! push them low...But do not pursue.
Any Escort assigned close in High Alt work should always operate with a hard deck assigned - and envelope of air space protection around the bombers that no one is allowed to violate - unless pressed into a defensive posture. To leave the bombers up top alone is madness.
Indeed. This is Escorting 101.
-
It's all about having an understanding of the different missions and how they interact with each other. A lot of people here either don't or don't want to and that is sort of a requirement for this sort of play. It's not the MA. This idea of close escort-- that it seems everyone embraces here--is just nuts. It never works. And with good reason. The worst place to be--well, other than trailing the bombers--is right above. Reason is that WHEN the group encounters NME that are tasked with knocking down the bombers, they're gonna largely ignore the escorts and focus on killing as many bombers as possible. Might only take one pass but a lot of em are gonna go down. Seen it a thousand times. The escorts are only in a position to watch that first pass+ pretty much. Close escort= very bad idea. It didn't work in real life so why would anyone think it would here? The escorts NEED to range out ahead of a bomber group and make a hole for them. The escorts need to be mindful of that. THAT is their mission--NOT racking up kills! Get your bombers in and out of the target and there's time for that. Take the defenders below the bombers' level in order to remove threat---never chase them to the deck. See that all the time. Bad discipline. THAT is what gets your bombers killed by another group of defenders. Just take them low ENOUGH. Don't take YOURSELF out of the play in pursuit of a kill. Detached escort is the way to do it--but that takes some effort. Not much--but some. And it ain't hard.
Escorting bombers REQUIRES a LOT of coordination between the bomber lead and fighter lead(s) in order to be successful. It can work. Flying bombers need not be a suicide mission. Bomber leads MUST MUST MUST have someone in their group giving frequent posreps so the fighters know where they are. Every twenty minutes doesn't get it. Bombers have to keep the group tight. Ever see film of bomber missons? They're pretty close together aren't they? There's a reason for that! Throttle the hell back and stay together! Bomber leaders get their whole group strung out over half a sector? See it all the time. They get killed. And then whine about it. They didn't respond on TAC and were all over the place so they couldn't even cover each other let alone get any help from the escorts. Their own fault. It's a team concept. Communicate--act as a team---and survive to complete the mission. Don't do that and you make life easy for the defender.
The whole NOE thing is a joke in FSO. It should be outlawed for bomber aircraft. Especially if people are gonna betch about dying while NOE. The only thing a NOE raid should be used for is as **part of a strategy** to drag some of the CAP fighters low so that those high alt level bombers can get a clearer path to the target. Give the escorts an easier time.
Timing is another thing. Don't know how many times I've tried to escort bombers that went charging in at a lower alt at full throttle and ended up in the target area well ahead of their escorts. Again--this ain't hard. Throttle the hell back and make sure that you are in the correct position to make the attack. If you go in first--YOU ARE GOING TO DIE. It's that simple.
Escorts. If you're escorting a group of bombers. THAT IS YOUR MISSION. Period. If you cross paths with an NME group that's possibly an attack--DO NOT ENGAGE IT. Like EVER! Send ONE OR TWO guys over to shadow that group and give FREQUENT POSREPS so that the guys that are tasked with defending the area they're heading to just might have something to shoot at. This happened this past frame where a group of escorts went after a group of attackers, wiped them out but left their bombers without an arm of escort and left their buds with a lot of empty sky.
I'm sorry if this comes across kinda harsh. But I've been flying events for years and years gong back into air warrior. I've been in every position from plane pilot on up to sice CiC in a scenario. So I know from the missions and the strategy. Events are a different animal people. Learn the missions, learn the strategy of them and I guarantee you'll have a better time. Treat it like an AvA MA and you'll have just that. And if that's the case don't whine when you get there.
-
Lot of good thoughts here.
My squad has had FSO discussions, or maybe it was complaints, doesn't matter what you call it. The consensus in our group is the FSO campaign are flawed at the design level. There are really no surprises when surprise could add a pucker factor.
What I mean is, each side is given a set of targets to attack or defend and ALL targets must be attacked. What if, and it's just a what if, the attacker did not have to hit every target but does have to meet a points objective? And, to ensure the defenders saw action, the arena setting were adjusted so radar or DAR showed their presence at a specified range. What I mean by that is it wouldn't have to be MA range.
Then maybe a CiC and his squad leads could have options to be creative in their planning.
I'm sure there are many holes in my thoughts. Be assured though, I simply want FSO to be everything it can be which in turn means great fun for the participants, and hopefully more participants.
All my years in the military, I learned a lot. One thing that stands out in relation to this is always try to improve your foxfole for the ones that follow behind you.
-
I agree with everything. But it's hard to find an escort group with that kind of discipline.
EVEN with the escorts, no matter where they are, they see bombers, they engage. They forget about the fighters. One pass, 50% of us are down.. Then we're hurting. Especially with no drones.
We'll try something else this frame. If we don't get a ride change.
Thank you for feedback.
:salute
JRjolly
-
Please note: Both the B-26 and JU-88 have NO minimum required number in this setup. Use of those two aircraft by the C-in-C is optional.
-
EVEN with the escorts, no matter where they are, they see bombers, they engage.
Of course. And like Drano said, - No one can stop one pass on the bombers. It is impossible for any close escort to prevent one pass. Can't be done in close proximity to the bombers.
-
Of course. And like Drano said, - No one can stop one pass on the bombers. It is impossible for any close escort to prevent one pass. Can't be done in close proximity to the bombers.
So at that point, have the single ju88s with the next to useless armament, we're sitting ducks.
-
My squad has had FSO discussions, or maybe it was complaints, doesn't matter what you call it. The consensus in our group is the FSO campaign are flawed at the design level. There are really no surprises when surprise could add a pucker factor.
Then maybe a CiC and his squad leads could have options to be creative in their planning.
I'd have to disagree that it's the design. Sure,some are better than others but--seriously? I mean what else could you possibly do here? You have a planeset. It is what it is. There simply isn't every plane that was available in the RL campaign available in the game--usually. So what substitutes that can be made are made. There have been discussions to this affect on the forums from time to time and those have been tweaked. You have objectives to attack and defend. Side balance is never historically accurate as it would just suck for one side usually. Take this FSO. The LW had scarcely any presence in this battle in RL. How about 10% for the axis? See what I mean? What else would you do? Again--this ain't hard.
But--on your second point I'd agree completely. A simple case of garbage in--garbage out. If you're the CiC and you make up the **orders** at the last minute that rhyme with "all routes are up to flight leaders' discretion"--that's garbage in. You didn't take the time to come up with a plan when it was your turn to do so. That's lame and it possibly might ruin everyone's fun come Friday night. Had a busy week? Get in line! That's why there's multiple guys per squad that get the objectives for the frame. Some of us get the objectives every week. All of us get the orders every week. They aren't the same. Read them. Know them. Execute them. If you do that and it didn't work out--maybe it was because the other guy had a better plan! Hell I've flown with guys in these events for years and at the beginning of every frame without fail the dumb questions start. What plane are we in? What field? What's the fuel load? Jaysus could you just read the email that I know you all got for 20 seconds and jot it out on a post-it so you know at least THAT much? If you don't do that it's a simple case of garbage in--garbage out. You'll get out of the frame what you put into it. Ain't hard. If the CiC DID take the time to come up with a plan and you either A) didn't even bother to read it or B) just ignored it and went wherever you wanted to--that's garbage in. Chances are the frame is gonna be a cluster and your action or inaction were a large contributing factor! WTG! We've all been there. Look around. That's why frames end up the way they do a lot of the time. Now think about it. The frames that went well. Weren't they the ones that had an actual plan that people actually communicated and acted like a unit? Pretty much huh? Garbage in--garbage out.
Are you (the FSO community) doing your part to make the frame what it could be? Or did you just come here to fly an MA that has historical plane matchups? If the latter then you're misinformed as that's not what events are supposed to be about. It's about missions and strategy. If you're ignoring them trust me you're really screwing youselves out of an awful lot of the fun these frames are intended to be.
-
There are really no surprises when surprise could add a pucker factor.
I'd like to know more about what you mean here.
-
I'd like to know more about what you mean here.
Not sure what he means, but with FSO, you basically have:
Allies- Attack fields A, B, and C and defend fields X, Y, and Z.
Axis- Attack fields X, Y, and Z and defend fields A, B, and C.
You know the enemy is coming, you know within 10-15 minutes when they'll be arriving. It's simplistic. The way the majority of the players are, it needs to be. If it were done differently, it would create more unpredictability, but it would also increase the chances for people to have a 'dud' night if the enemy didn't show in the area they were in.
Wiley.
-
So at that point, have the single ju88s with the next to useless armament, we're sitting ducks.
Yeah - 88's are ducks. That's where Drano's post below yours comes into play. Tactics, subterfuge, call it what you will. You must be creative and get those bombers in there some way, coupled with the available other squadrons assigned into your mission group. Teamwork. You must have a plan and because as Wiley notes - it isn't too difficult to narrow down the likely times and places the bombers will be at. So somehow some way, when we all have bomber duty - the way must be found, or in the least try to have as much fun with it at possible by being creative in the approach and plan, and in the playing the chess game part of it with the opposition. Not always going to work of course, but nothing always works.
<S>
-
I know that whenever I see suggested routes from a CiC I will try to fly them offline to see what I am dealing with in regards to time, alt, and speed.
I use specific CiC orders more of as a recommendation or guidline. Those types of orders are never really meant for us to stick specifically to them unless you are bringing in more than one strike to a specified IP where numbers enroute are key to safety prior to committing to your final leg.
I always try to communicate my squad's intent as early as possible to ensure all squads are in the right place at the right time doing the right thing. I know that if I am an attack plane or bomber, it is critical for the sweep, escort, or CAP planes to be in place when the poop starts to hit the fan.
Sometimes, depending on terrain, NOE is a great tactic to use as long as your sweepers are in 3 to 4 dimensional mode and you planned for it ahead of time. I prefer NOE spokewheel type attacks in JABBO missions. I prefer deception and layers with altitude bombing if time permits. Again, it always depends on the situation.
I'd say that the most important thing is that CiC assigns an ATTACK lead and a DEFENSIVE CAP lead. As long as those assigned actually lead, then there shouldn't be a problem. I know real life gets in the way. It has with me until I finally settled down in TX this past month. I know that if my squad isn't lead, I usually try to put a recommendation together and send it off the the participating squads on my mission to ensure everyone knows what our intent is. And of that strike's lead needs us to do something different at crunch time, we flex to that plan. Always leave some wiggle in your plan to flex.
:old: Sometimes the best laid plan falls apart when the first shot is fired. :old:
:rockSlipKnoT
-
Yeah - 88's are ducks. That's where Drano's post below yours comes into play. Tactics, subterfuge, call it what you will. You must be creative and get those bombers in there some way, coupled with the available other squadrons assigned into your mission group. Teamwork. You must have a plan and because as Wiley notes - it isn't too difficult to narrow down the likely times and places the bombers will be at. So somehow some way, when we all have bomber duty - the way must be found, or in the least try to have as much fun with it at possible by being creative in the approach and plan, and in the playing the chess game part of it with the opposition. Not always going to work of course, but nothing always works.
<S>
Agreed. So we tried the NOE plan.
But what COULD happen. Is the CiCs give the allied multiple bases to attack. We choose.. Fairly close proximity. (ie: A52, A57, A65 are available targets). Give the axis the SAME fields, then allow the allied to pick and choose. if you hit A52 first frame, It's not allowed in 2nd/3rd frame.
No matter what we do in the JU88s (with singles at least) we're going to get destroyed.
-
I'd like to know more about what you mean here.
Excuse me for not being clear. And by no means should you or any of the FSO CMs take my comments as a knock - that is not what I want to portray.
What I mean is, normally, the objectives given to CiCs don't give them a lot of room for creativity in planning. As mentioned by Wiley, targets X,Y, and Z must be attacked and defended. I get it, this measure is built in to ensure action for everyone. Everyone knows where the planes are upping from and about what time to expect the attack.
If it wasn't so clear cut on what to expect on the defenders side, it would add an element of the unknown, and the defender would need to plan for that, and luck would certainly be a bigger factor.
Maybe not all will agree that this would improve the FSO experience.
Additionally, I think enhanced arena settings would give the CMs more ability to enhance the playing event's environment would be great, and maybe with the next revision of AH, it will be true. For example, if were possible to adjust radar for certain areas in the SEA and not a global setting, where it would could be used to the defender and not the attacker. Just my thoughts
-
What I mean is, normally, the objectives given to CiCs don't give them a lot of room for creativity in planning.
I call BS on that. The problem happens when the side CO sees the objectives, puts in the minimum time planning and comes up with a straight line that goes from field A to field Z, Field B to field Y and field C to field X. THAT is where the problem you're describing comes from. NOT the design. The side CO takes some time to come up with an ACTUAL plan of attack and it can be fun. The whole "creativity" thing lies with the side CO and the side CO alone. Just takes a little effort but you can come up with routes that actually have turns in them. Misdirection is a tactic rarely used here. It's a 3D battlefield. Use everything--including altitude. Altitude, time, radar ranges--use them all! It can maybe actually work! You can probably survive a successful strike in Ju-88s! Hell I've survived missions in a Stuka that I was sure was an obvious suicide run. But like I said in my other post--garbage in-----garbage out. Come up with one of those straight line from launch field to target field plans isn't only NOT creative---it's not even a plan.
-
The active strike launch fields are not always the fields that need to be defended. Many times there are limits as to what fields are active, for historical reasons, but many times all fields are active and the CiC has a choice. So the enemy doesn't always know the strike launched from field A just because field A needs to be defended against attack.
I agree with Drano. Everyone's FSO experience is directly proportional to the effort put forth by the CiC to design orders and the ability of participating squads to stay on task.
-
I do not represent my squadron in these discussions -disclaimer.
I might not be reading the tone of this thread correctly. So, I have to ask a question. Is the general expectation for the CiC to provide detailed routes for attacks and detailed patrol areas for CAPs?
Thanks.
:salute
-
I do not represent my squadron in these discussions -disclaimer.
I might not be reading the tone of this thread correctly. So, I have to ask a question. Is the general expectation for the CiC to provide detailed routes for attacks and detailed patrol areas for CAPs?
Thanks.
:salute
Something better than a straight line route...
Here's what should happen. The CiC should know if his schedule for the week will be busy.. IF IT IS, give early orders about what needs to be hit, plane set, etc. Allow the Squads time to come up with decent flight routes. Giving orders a day before FSO that is point A to point B is not doing anyone good.
IF the CiC has time to come up with a decent plan, still come up with it early, send it out to the squads and be open to discussion.
:salute
JRjolly
-
Just takes a little effort but you can come up with routes that actually have turns in them. Misdirection is a tactic rarely used here. It's a 3D battlefield. Use everything--including altitude. Altitude, time, radar ranges--use them all! It can maybe actually work! You can probably survive a successful strike in Ju-88s! Hell I've survived missions in a Stuka that I was sure was an obvious suicide run. But like I said in my other post--garbage in-----garbage out. Come up with one of those straight line from launch field to target field plans isn't only NOT creative---it's not even a plan.
A good deal of the time, straight line is almost necessary to get there under the T+60 requirement.
Wiley.
-
If it wasn't so clear cut on what to expect on the defenders side, it would add an element of the unknown, and the defender would need to plan for that, and luck would certainly be a bigger factor.
I've seen it done in the other sim. It was at times some of the best gameplay I've ever had, it could also be an evening of boring holes in the sky. I get why they do it the way they do here. I think the majority would not care for it.
Wiley.
-
I call BS on that. The problem happens when the side CO sees the objectives, puts in the minimum time planning and comes up with a straight line that goes from field A to field Z, Field B to field Y and field C to field X. THAT is where the problem you're describing comes from. NOT the design. The side CO takes some time to come up with an ACTUAL plan of attack and it can be fun. The whole "creativity" thing lies with the side CO and the side CO alone. Just takes a little effort but you can come up with routes that actually have turns in them. Misdirection is a tactic rarely used here. It's a 3D battlefield. Use everything--including altitude. Altitude, time, radar ranges--use them all! It can maybe actually work! You can probably survive a successful strike in Ju-88s! Hell I've survived missions in a Stuka that I was sure was an obvious suicide run. But like I said in my other post--garbage in-----garbage out. Come up with one of those straight line from launch field to target field plans isn't only NOT creative---it's not even a plan.
I agree with you on your point that a higher level of effort in planning by the CiC would improve the event - no doubt about that and I am sure the majority agree. But that doesn't mean the event planning at the design level couldn't be improved as well.
I also stand by my thoughts that more fidelity to arena settings for historical terrains would be great for events - whether achievable or not. That is HTC's to consider. Imagine if each side only had radar coverage for it's own territory, and radar didn't work in ravines and behind natural obstacles. Or what if each base did not have it's own radar facility but were at strategic locations. The current arena settings are great for the MA with make believe terrains made to enhance game play, but I propose they are less than optimal for historical terrains.
-
I've seen it done in the other sim. It was at times some of the best gameplay I've ever had, it could also be an evening of boring holes in the sky. I get why they do it the way they do here. I think the majority would not care for it.
Wiley.
Your probably right - not everyone wants a historically accurate event - game play must always be considered and a balance struck.
-
A good deal of the time, straight line is almost necessary to get there under the T+60 requirement.
Wiley.
Indeed. This is one of the reasons why this month's FSO setup is built with the enemy bases a bit closer together.