Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zerstorer on January 22, 2015, 10:07:02 AM
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Yes or no?
Please be sure to discuss how you came to your conclusion.
:aok
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No
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No
Why?
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Why?
because we are playing what is infact a game so everything is gamey.
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No way, it's only used by the most elite acm masters and is totally applicable in the real world too..
Woohoo post 500
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It's not, at all
and is totally applicable in the real world too..
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Now lets talk about stick stirring...... :bolt:
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(http://cdn.yourepeat.com/media/gif/000/010/624/872ff72edc71b18ad145659448e52bdb.gif)
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I would say yes. Doing a tail slide in real combat is a very unwise thing to do.
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Why?
After this post Im not going to post another due to a feeling of mine that this thread is mainly a trolling one. Anyways, it would be like saying a locemvac is a gamey move (if it could be preformed... I never could get it). There is a lot of airshow footage of where you can find a "tailslide" If you will. And yes I know they are stunt planes, but I don't see why a war machine couldn't pull it off in a freak occurance.
There is also that famous dogfights video with the p51 shooting down that 109 with a tail slide like move...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuBiMM7VGh8
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No, a tailslide is NOT gamey. Here is why... it is use of the inertia of the plane, along with the control surfaces to throw the plane into a controlled spin, it's kind of like a flip with a half twist dive. It has been practiced in various stunt planes, which I have personally observed. Good enough?
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because we are playing what is infact a game so everything is gamey.
This is actually a good answer! Thanks Hamhawk!
I asked, btw, because it came up in a discussion recently. I'm personally on the fence on the matter.
It seems to fall into the same type of "super-maneuvering" you see with some late generation Russian jets like the Su-27 series (e.g. Pugachev's Cobra, Frolov Chakra, etc). The fact it's done in a game/sim which models WWII combat is what I have a difficult time with...not saying stuff like this can't be done with these planes...but for the life of me I've never seen any data of it being done IRL.
There is also that famous dogfights video with the p51 shooting down that 109 with a tail slide like move...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuBiMM7VGh8
That's not a "tail slide"....at least not as typically practiced in AH. That was performed at higher speeds to quickly slow down...not float like a helicopter during a slow stall fight.
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No way, it's only used by the most elite acm masters and is totally applicable in the real world too..
A true tail slide has been (and still is in Russian doctrine) used in air combat. This is what an actual tail slide looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCMaSWuh-4o
The latest Sukhoi aircraft perform this maneuver very well with thrust vectoring.
Aces High version of the "tail slide" has no real life correlation, nor would it work. It's a violent cross-controlled stall performed at a high angle of attack, done to purposely depart the aircraft from controlled flight. Not even modern fighter pilots in current aircraft would do such a maneuver without extensive calculations beforehand, as you highly risk over-G of the aircraft and in-flight breakup. Even if over-G does not happen, the inherently unstable flight condition would send you into a well-developed spin in real life and make recovery very difficult with severe (thousands of feet of) altitude loss.
The ingame version seen commonly is just gaming the torque modeling, and doesn't work anywhere else but AH.
I have to admit that I'm guilty of using it myself from time-to-time. This isn't really a sim, it's a game with sim-like features, and so it's going to allow maneuvers that are gamey. If you want a combat sim, this isn't the right game or crowd.
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That's not a "tail slide"....at least not as typically practiced in AH. That was performed at higher speeds to quickly slow down...not float like a helicopter during a slow stall fight.
Tailslides aren't always used to float so the enemy overshoots in a slow stall fight. Though they often are, there are different kinds. So to speak.
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its pretty damn gamey and unrealistic, but i'll be damned if its not fun to do
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After this post Im not going to post another due to a feeling of mine that this thread is mainly a trolling one. Anyways, it would be like saying a locemvac is a gamey move (if it could be preformed... I never could get it). There is a lot of airshow footage of where you can find a "tailslide" If you will. And yes I know they are stunt planes, but I don't see why a war machine couldn't pull it off in a freak occurance.
There is also that famous dogfights video with the p51 shooting down that 109 with a tail slide like move...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuBiMM7VGh8
I think the reason we can't do a proper Lomcevak is because we seem to have limited elevator travel.
Here's a gamer exploiting the torque modeling. :D
http://youtu.be/uRz6JpPrESE
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"I got a fever, and the only cure is... more tail slide." -DMF
https://vimeo.com/85493660
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its pretty damn gamey and unrealistic, but i'll be damned if its not fun to do
Yes they are. And I'm just as guilty of using it.
I think the reason we can't do a proper Lomcevak is because we seem to have limited elevator travel.
Here's a gamer exploiting the torque modeling. :D
http://youtu.be/uRz6JpPrESE
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's an acrobatic plane...frame composed of lightweight composite materials combined with a powerful engine.
So the comparison should only be partly correct, at least in the context of a WWII warbirds doing the same things......the Zero and Ki43 likely being exceptions to some extent.
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The real question is... what does Fresco have in store when someone eventually says cutting the engine in the middle of a fight is gamey?
I have no idea what's in store. Do you guys? :uhoh
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:noid
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The real question is... what does Fresco have in store when someone eventually says cutting the engine in the middle of a fight is gamey?
I have no idea what's in store. Do you guys? :uhoh
Cutting one's engine is gamey in that a real pilot probably wouldn't do it, but they could still easily do it and do it multiple times without any difficulty or adverse effect. Try a "AH tailslide" in a real aircraft and you probably aren't coming back except in a body bag.
Anyways, I'm not sure what everyone's so worked up about. This is a game - it's clear that actual ACM is rarely followed here, so who cares?
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The real question is... what does Fresco have in store when someone eventually says cutting the engine in the middle of a fight is gamey?
I have no idea what's in store. Do you guys? :uhoh
Questioning the ulterior motives of a question is certainly an interesting way to dodge providing an answer...but it isn't an actual answer. It also implies that the person doing the dodging doesn't want to answer because it invalidates their prior arguments.
But I digress...
I know you don't tail slide that much in your B38..... but you seemed to be doing just fine last night skating along 50 feet over the deck at 90mph, flaps full out in a Yak3. It didn't save you...but you sure looked good doing it! :aok
So what's your opinion, Triton....is it gamey or not?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's an acrobatic plane...frame composed of lightweight composite materials combined with a powerful engine.
The aircraft are different but the physics are the same. We can't tumble but otherwise we get a similar ride limited by the performance differences.
So if a maneuver is a real maneuver then is a less extreme version of it still gamey or is it advanced stall fighting?
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Tail slide is dweeby :old:
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Tail slide is dweeby :old:
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The aircraft are different but the physics are the same. We can't tumble but otherwise we get a similar ride limited by the performance differences.
So if a maneuver is a real maneuver then is a less extreme version of it still gamey or is it advanced stall fighting?
That's the question I think we are trying to answer. As I said....I'm on the fence on that matter. :D
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That's the question I think we are trying to answer. As I said....I'm on the fence on that matter. :D
No doubt people will set aside their preferences and have a rational discussion about it. :lol
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The aircraft are different but the physics are the same. We can't tumble but otherwise we get a similar ride limited by the performance differences.
So if a maneuver is a real maneuver then is a less extreme version of it still gamey or is it advanced stall fighting?
Modern aerobatic planes and fighters can do things far beyond what a ww2 fighter could and even in AH its hard to to some of the stuffs. So if we use that definition nothing is gamey.
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I'm more on the side of "it probably wouldn't have been done much in real life, except in extreme desperation". Not having the effects of the maneuver makes it easier on the virtual pilot, so that control is kept, but war being what it was, planes weren't always in top notch condition, so they might not handle the stress as well, along with various other factors make it unlikely to be a "go to" maneuver.
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This morning I saw a thread from last year on the SIMHQ forum about 'the most dangerous sim' out there. The OP indicated that Aces High took top honors.
More important than that drivel was the 'points of distinction' (it's a comparison, remember) made below it.
One was that Aces High is a combat simulator and DCS was a 'study' simulator, from which I read 'realism'.
If you use Aces High and DCS as polarities, then IL2 would be in the high-middle somewhere.
Aces High is a combat simulator. If the flight model allows a pilot to perform an outlandish and unlikely maneuver and get away with it, then it is just part of the game. The same way that the BFG was so popular in first person shooters. There was never a 'real' BFG, but it was fun as heck.
Eliminating a tailslide capability in Aces High might otherwise harm other, more likely, flight regimes in the game. Leave it in...don't fuss about 'gamey'. Figure out a way to defeat it.
I'm not the most well read person on this board, but I have been reading about fighter combat in WWII for about 50-years. I've not run across an account yet of a WWII pilot intentionally tail-sliding as either an offensive or defensive 'move'. There are other ways to force overshoots, I suppose. When talking to those veterans, I almost never heard anything about intentionally stalling unless all else was lost. Why? Because when your aircraft is ballistic, you might evade your attacker, but not his wingman.
If this was a troll, OP, then like a tailslide, you've roped me in! :D
:salute
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The only stall "tailslidish" thing I can do is in the 152 but I don't know how close to historically accurate that stall is.
And it is only used in a worse case scenario, low percentage shot comes from it, better off just beating the guy before it gets there.
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This morning I saw a thread from last year on the SIMHQ forum about 'the most dangerous sim' out there. The OP indicated that Aces High took top honors.
More important than that drivel was the 'points of distinction' (it's a comparison, remember) made below it.
One was that Aces High is a combat simulator and DCS was a 'study' simulator, from which I read 'realism'.
If you use Aces High and DCS as polarities, then IL2 would be in the high-middle somewhere.
Aces High is a combat simulator. If the flight model allows a pilot to perform an outlandish and unlikely maneuver and get away with it, then it is just part of the game. The same way that the BFG was so popular in first person shooters. There was never a 'real' BFG, but it was fun as heck.
Eliminating a tailslide capability in Aces High might otherwise harm other, more likely, flight regimes in the game. Leave it in...don't fuss about 'gamey'. Figure out a way to defeat it.
I'm not the most well read person on this board, but I have been reading about fighter combat in WWII for about 50-years. I've not run across an account yet of a WWII pilot intentionally tail-sliding as either an offensive or defensive 'move'. There are other ways to force overshoots, I suppose. When talking to those veterans, I almost never heard anything about intentionally stalling unless all else was lost. Why? Because when your aircraft is ballistic, you might evade your attacker, but not his wingman.
If this was a troll, OP, then like a tailslide, you've roped me in! :D
:salute
I think you hit some good points, almost all of which I agree with. BTW...I never mentioned I think the tailslide should be removed (I don't).
You simply do not see a "AH tail slide" (for lack of a better term) used as a combat tactic in other air combat sims. At least I never have, and I've flown just about everything sim-wise released in the past 20 years. That's not to say you can't perform something close to it in, say, IL-2 (you can...kinda :D).....but its a LOT harder to pull off. As for DCS....I can't get the K4 or 51 to do it there but I'm sure with time you might get to something close. As you pointed out, DCS is a study sim with significant additional complexity thrown in (e.g. more realistic flight model, engine management, etc).
"Because when your aircraft is ballistic, you might evade your attacker, but not his wingman." <- this is quotable! :aok
As for it being a "troll"....a little...more of a "counter troll" as Triton correctly surmised...but I really wasn't trying hard to hide it. ;)
That said, it's also meant as an honest (and interesting) question. :salute
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It's not gamey, it's just not the most smartest move one can do unless you have sufficient energy to keep out of the other guy's guns.
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Modern aerobatic planes and fighters can do things far beyond what a ww2 fighter could and even in AH its hard to to some of the stuffs. So if we use that definition nothing is gamey.
What's interesting about the Holland video, aside from his flying, is not the differences with AH performance but the similarities.
...You simply do not see a "AH tail slide" (for lack of a better term) used as a combat tactic in other air combat sims. At least I never have, and I've flown just about everything sim-wise released in the past 20 years. That's not to say you can't perform something close to it in, say, IL-2 (you can...kinda :D).....but its a LOT harder to pull off. As for DCS....I can't get the K4 or 51 to do it there but I'm sure with time you might get to something close. as you said, DCS is a study sim with significant additional complexity thrown in (e.g. more realistic flight model, engine management, etc)...
You really can't do the same post stall maneuvers in other sims but we see more extreme versions of them in videos of real aircraft. To me that's a credit to the AH flight model.
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You really can't do the same post stall maneuvers in other sims but we see more extreme versions of them in videos of real aircraft. To me that's a credit to the AH flight model.
Disagree. You can. They just are different and in most cases harder to pull off. I can get the F4 in Battle of Stalingrad to do it (but not the 109G2...I get close and she goes all nutty). I can do the same with the various 109E models in Cliffs of Dover with the TF mods. I can't in DCS (yet)...Frustrating. :mad:
But even when you do its still not "helicopter-like" as it is in AH at low speeds...and I think that's the heart of the question.
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I believe that if the game allows any maneuver then its valid and not gamey. I think that this is why some people, with no preconceived notions or knowledge about what an aircraft should do, sometimes end up being better at the game. They are more open to exploring the game limits.
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What do you mean by helicopter like? Can you describe a situation?
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But even when you do its still not "helicopter-like" as it is in AH at low speeds...and I think that's the heart of the question.
Can you provide video of this maneuver in Aces High?
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It's not gamey, it's just not the most smartest move one can do unless you have sufficient energy to keep out of the other guy's guns.
Sounds like you are describing this, which isn't what I'm referring to as a "tailslide".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfcsgF_h-60 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfcsgF_h-60)
FYI - you do see this in other sims (obviously....the film demonstration is in Cliffs of Dover).
Side Note: Please add in the ability to embed Youtube videos one day, HTC!
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Can you provide video of this maneuver in Aces High?
Sadly I cannot....I have trouble with "film" due to technical reasons. I run triple-screen which doesn't come out right in film viewer usually. So I don't use the AH film record option often.
(On a side note...I have high hopes for using DXtoxy soon to film my fights....I am in the process of testing the eval version now. :aok)
That said, I'm fairly certain some others pilots I know might have a few examples clips. :D
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Sounds like you are describing this, which isn't what I'm referring to as a "tailslide".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfcsgF_h-60 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfcsgF_h-60)
FYI - you do see this in other sims (obviously....the film demonstration is in Cliffs of Dover).
Side Note: Please add in the ability to embed Youtube videos one day, HTC!
Thank looked like a stick stir to me....like a complete accident, the hurri just missed the shot.
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Thank looked like a stick stir to me....like a complete accident, the hurri just missed the shot.
That's what torque + a stall looks like, and that's fairly realistic looking from the behavior of it. Once a stall happens, the floor drops out from under you and you lose the majority of directional control. The stall behavior in Aces High is very odd and doesn't mimic any aircraft I've flown or seen. See here for what happens when you put an aircraft into a spin configuration (aka the "AH tailslide"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgvnGvShz4g
Stick-stirring is something also unique to Aces High, as it's the rubber-banding effect that happens when you move your stick around. The game engine in IL2 doesn't have the same rendering issues.
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That's what torque + a stall looks like, and that's fairly realistic looking from the behavior of it. Once a stall happens, the floor drops out from under you and you lose the majority of directional control. The stall behavior in Aces High is very odd and doesn't mimic any aircraft I've flown or seen.
Stick-stirring is something also unique to Aces High, as it's the rubber-banding effect that happens when you move your stick around. The game engine in IL2 doesn't have the same rendering issues.
What I'm getting at is, it seems he didn't know what he was actually doing, maybe by accident he performed a maneuver, which the second half should not of happened if the Hurri knew how to aim(he looked forward just as the Hurri just about had a gun solution).
It wasn't some expert ACM on the half of the 109, it was failed ACM of the hurri.
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Thank looked like a stick stir to me....like a complete accident, the hurri just missed the shot.
It would look like a "stick stir" to you..you are used to flying "in water". Search the forum posts....pretty sure this term has been used before...more than once...
Its a simple cross control input. Looks "stick stirrish" to you because planes tend to stall more violently in Cliffs than in AH.
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It would look like a "stick stir" to you..you are used to flying "in water". Search the forum posts....pretty sure this term has been used before...more than once...
Its a simple cross control input. Looks "stick stirrish" to you because planes tend to stall more violently in Cliffs than in AH.
He rolled twice, reversed his roll and cross controlled which set him in the stall....from the Hurri's POV he probably looked like a floppy dead fish.
again he didn't do anything special, the Hurricane is a fault for his own death. I only spent a little bit of time on Il2, I personally liked the fights in AH better maybe its better(more planes in a smaller area, AH had a lot more people in MA in that time), been like 5 years. Might have to check it out again.
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Tailslides can be done in various planes when a certain notch of flaps is deployed. Note: When performing a tailslide maneuver You will loose majority of airspeed. If You can tailslide planes please use it wisely as which most time it will cost you to die.
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Sounds like you are describing this, which isn't what I'm referring to as a "tailslide".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfcsgF_h-60 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfcsgF_h-60)
FYI - you do see this in other sims (obviously....the film demonstration is in Cliffs of Dover).
Side Note: Please add in the ability to embed Youtube videos one day, HTC!
I know what a tail slide is.
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He simply had one option once he was co-e....and it isn't a pretty one but it does work.
If you are flying a bf109 in Cliffs and try to turn or maintain a co-E fight with a Hurricane.....you will die.
Period.
No slow roll to show your flank, bank up as he overshoots and lazy roll down on his six. No throw flaps out and suddenly your By-Design-E-Fighter can magically outturn a plane built to turn fight. It doesn't work that way. You stay fast, stay fighting in the vertical and you live (and likely win).
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Thank looked like a stick stir to me....like a complete accident, the hurri just missed the shot.
I disagree...he was controlling right until his nose dropped just before the end. I thought he did a pretty good job.
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No slow roll to show your flank, bank up as he overshoots and lazy roll down on his six. No throw flaps out and suddenly your By-Design-E-Fighter can magically outturn a plane built to turn fight. It doesn't work that way. You stay fast, stay fighting in the vertical and you live (and likely win).
Hmmm... sounds surprisingly like every ACM book I've ever read. Whoodathunkit?!
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Disagree. You can. They just are different and in most cases harder to pull off. I can get the F4 in Battle of Stalingrad to do it (but not the 109G2...I get close and she goes all nutty). I can do the same with the various 109E models in Cliffs of Dover with the TF mods. I can't in DCS (yet)...Frustrating. :mad:
But even when you do its still not "helicopter-like" as it is in AH at low speeds...and I think that's the heart of the question.
I say they're different. You disagree and say they're different. That actually means you agree with me.
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I say they're different. You disagree and say they're different. That actually means you agree with me.
er....well....yes.
:lol
Sorry...I disagreed thinking you said you CAN'T do it, which I now realize is not what you said.
You are correct...you can but its different.
My bad! :salute
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He simply had one option once he was co-e....and it isn't a pretty one but it does work.
If you are flying a bf109 in Cliffs and try to turn or maintain a co-E fight with a Hurricane.....you will die.
Period.
No slow roll to show your flank, bank up as he overshoots and lazy roll down on his six. No throw flaps out and suddenly your By-Design-E-Fighter can magically outturn a plane built to turn fight. It doesn't work that way. You stay fast, stay fighting in the vertical and you live (and likely win).
the fight was not CO E...the Hurri had a ton more...the 109 should have nosed down and into the Hurri as he came up and extended away from him so as to reset the fight so he could get the fight into the vertical. The reason he had to perform this manuever is he failed at SA, which is what I'm getting at...any of these "flashy" moves don't matter until the worst case scenario.
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the fight was not CO E...the Hurri had a ton more...the 109 should have nosed down and into the Hurri as he came up and extended away from him so as to reset the fight so he could get the fight into the vertical. The reason he had to perform this manuever is he failed at SA, which is what I'm getting at...any of these "flashy" moves don't matter until the worst case scenario.
The hurri had more E, but not much at the end because the 109 made mistakes....my point is that's something you want to avoid.
You are correct.....his SA failed him at some point. But you seem to be suggesting this makes him a bad pilot without a full understanding of the challenges posed by the environment around him.
I'll throw out a challenge....come fly Cliffs and see how well you maintain SA. It's a weeeee bit more difficult than in Aces High. Might want to give yourself a day to get familiar engine start and take off procedures, RPM & prop pitch management, engine management during flight (i.e. you can't fly with the engine firewalled all the time) and a few other nasty surprises. I recommend you fly German and choose a bf109 E4 or E4N....they have auto prop pitch management that reduces the workload somewhat.
After that....fly over to England and "pick a fight"....or wait for someone to pick one with you. Hope you see them first! :aok
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The hurri had more E, but not much at the end because the 109 made mistakes....my point is that's something you want to avoid.
You are correct.....his SA failed him at some point. But you seem to be suggesting this makes him a bad pilot without a full understanding of the challenges posed by the environment around him.
I'll throw out a challenge....come fly Cliffs and see how well you maintain SA. It's a weeeee bit more difficult than in Aces High. Might want to give yourself a day to get familiar engine start and take off procedures, RPM & prop pitch management, engine management during flight (i.e. you can't fly with the engine firewalled all the time) and a few other nasty surprises. I recommend you fly German and choose a bf109 E4 or E4N....they have auto prop pitch management that reduces the workload somewhat.
After that....fly over to England and "pick a fight"....or wait for someone to pick one with you. Hope you see them first! :aok
I don't have much time for Aces High/video games in general but if I find the time I will.
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"This is a game, therefore game it" - Skyyr :rolleyes:
Seriously though, if anything is gamey it's the way Torque throws you around at stall speeds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCVK3nhkOAg
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A true tail slide has been (and still is in Russian doctrine) used in air combat. This is what an actual tail slide looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCMaSWuh-4o
The latest Sukhoi aircraft perform this maneuver very well with thrust vectoring.
In modern aerial combat environment that maneuver is as dumb as Maverick's "I'll hit the brakes, he'll fly right by" maneuver from Top Gun. It's the equivalent of turning off your engine at the top of a zoom climb in AH. :D
If you have any doubts, you can ask one of our resident fighter pilots, like eagl, heater or mace.
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In modern aerial combat environment that maneuver is as dumb as Maverick's "I'll hit the brakes, he'll fly right by" maneuver from Top Gun.
Never said it was or wasn't, but tailslides and negative forward airspeed maneuvers are part of Russian BFM/ACM training.
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Krup,
You a Phillys, ill Bill or Villans fan?
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:D
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BngUQ3iSxu8/T_4HEIQtIvI/AAAAAAAACS8/7XiuSJAfJYM/s1600/CBP_6825.png)
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Man's gotta have priorities....... :salute
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In modern aerial combat environment that maneuver is as dumb as Maverick's "I'll hit the brakes, he'll fly right by" maneuver from Top Gun. It's the equivalent of turning off your engine at the top of a zoom climb in AH. :D
If you have any doubts, you can ask one of our resident fighter pilots, like eagl, heater or mace.
Ack ack is correct.
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In modern aerial combat environment that maneuver is as dumb as Maverick's "I'll hit the brakes, he'll fly right by" maneuver from Top Gun. It's the equivalent of turning off your engine at the top of a zoom climb in AH. :D
If you have any doubts, you can ask one of our resident fighter pilots, like eagl, heater or mace.
This reminds me of 40 second Boyd, who was considered a maverick, and his signature move. :joystick:
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I would say yes. Doing a tail slide in real combat is a very unwise thing to do.
You're thinking like a fighter pilot. There's no place for that nonsense around here! :devil
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I love a good tail slide, its an easy kill for me!! is it gamey, no not really, its a maneuver.... just hope the guy you're doing it to, isn't expecting it!
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"I got a fever, and the only cure is... more tail slide." -DMF
https://vimeo.com/85493660
Those cats were definitely fast as lightning.
:aok
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Hitech, please ban the tail sliders.
wait...
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Saw a really long tail side last night. The guy held it perfectly vertical until he ran into a lead stream and exploded. Kind of like upside down fireworks.
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JOACH1M great video of that maneuver. Done in a P-51d at that!
Thanks for posting.
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Unless it's in a 38. Then it's a great move AND cool.
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JOACH1M great video of that maneuver. Done in a P-51d at that!
Thanks for posting.
Glad you liked it! :aok