Is a "tail slide" a gamey move?

[JunkyII]

The only stall "tailslidish" thing I can do is in the 152 but I don't know how close to historically accurate that stall is.


And it is only used in a worse case scenario, low percentage shot comes from it, better off just beating the guy before it gets there.

[Zerstorer]

This morning I saw a thread from last year on the SIMHQ forum about 'the most dangerous sim' out there.  The OP indicated that Aces High took top honors.

More important than that drivel was the 'points of distinction' (it's a comparison, remember) made below it.

One was that Aces High is a combat simulator and DCS was a 'study' simulator, from which I read 'realism'.

If you use Aces High and DCS as polarities, then IL2 would be in the high-middle somewhere.

Aces High is a combat simulator.  If the flight model allows a pilot to perform an outlandish and unlikely maneuver and get away with it, then it is just part of the game.  The same way that the BFG was so popular in first person shooters.  There was never a 'real' BFG, but it was fun as heck.

Eliminating a tailslide capability in Aces High might otherwise harm other, more likely, flight regimes in the game.  Leave it in...don't fuss about 'gamey'.  Figure out a way to defeat it.

I'm not the most well read person on this board, but I have been reading about fighter combat in WWII for about 50-years.  I've not run across an account yet of a WWII pilot intentionally tail-sliding as either an offensive or defensive 'move'.  There are other ways to force overshoots, I suppose.  When talking to those veterans, I almost never heard anything about intentionally stalling unless all else was lost.  Why?  Because when your aircraft is ballistic, you might evade your attacker, but not his wingman.

If this was a troll, OP, then like a tailslide, you've roped me in!  

   

I think you hit some good points, almost all of which I agree with.  BTW...I never mentioned I think the tailslide should be removed (I don't).

You simply do not see a "AH tail slide" (for lack of a better term) used as a combat tactic in other air combat sims.  At least I never have, and I've flown just about everything sim-wise released in the past 20 years.  That's not to say you can't perform something close to it in, say, IL-2 (you can...kinda  ).....but its a LOT harder to pull off.  As for DCS....I can't get the K4 or 51 to do it there but I'm sure with time you might get to something close.  As you pointed out, DCS is a study sim with significant additional complexity thrown in (e.g. more realistic flight model, engine management, etc).

"Because when your aircraft is ballistic, you might evade your attacker, but not his wingman."  <-  this is quotable!  

As for it being a "troll"....a little...more of a "counter troll" as Triton correctly surmised...but I really wasn't trying hard to hide it.    

That said, it's also meant as an honest (and interesting) question.  

[Ack-Ack]

It's not gamey, it's just not the most smartest move one can do unless you have sufficient energy to keep out of the other guy's guns.

[FLS]

Modern aerobatic planes and fighters can do things far beyond what a ww2 fighter could and even in AH its hard to to some of the stuffs. So if we use that definition nothing is gamey.

What's interesting about the Holland video, aside from his flying, is not the differences with AH performance but the similarities.

...You simply do not see a "AH tail slide" (for lack of a better term) used as a combat tactic in other air combat sims.  At least I never have, and I've flown just about everything sim-wise released in the past 20 years.  That's not to say you can't perform something close to it in, say, IL-2 (you can...kinda  ).....but its a LOT harder to pull off.  As for DCS....I can't get the K4 or 51 to do it there but I'm sure with time you might get to something close.  as you said, DCS is a study sim with significant additional complexity thrown in (e.g. more realistic flight model, engine management, etc)...

You really can't do the same post stall maneuvers in other sims but we see more extreme versions of them in videos of real aircraft. To me that's a credit to the AH flight model.

[Zerstorer]

You really can't do the same post stall maneuvers in other sims but we see more extreme versions of them in videos of real aircraft. To me that's a credit to the AH flight model.

Disagree.  You can.  They just are different and in most cases harder to pull off.   I can get the F4 in Battle of Stalingrad to do it (but not the 109G2...I get close and she goes all nutty).  I can do the same with the various 109E models in Cliffs of Dover with the TF mods.  I can't in DCS (yet)...Frustrating. 

But even when you do its still not "helicopter-like" as it is in AH at low speeds...and I think that's the heart of the question.

[Canspec]

I believe that if the game allows any maneuver then its valid and not gamey. I think that this is why some people, with no preconceived notions or knowledge about what an aircraft should do, sometimes end up being better at the game. They are more open to exploring the game limits.

[Someguy63]

What do you mean by helicopter like? Can you describe a situation?

[JunkyII]

But even when you do its still not "helicopter-like" as it is in AH at low speeds...and I think that's the heart of the question.

Can you provide video of this maneuver in Aces High?

[Zerstorer]

It's not gamey, it's just not the most smartest move one can do unless you have sufficient energy to keep out of the other guy's guns.

Sounds like you are describing this, which isn't what I'm referring to as a "tailslide".  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfcsgF_h-60

FYI - you do see this in other sims (obviously....the film demonstration is in Cliffs of Dover).

Side Note:  Please add in the ability to embed Youtube videos one day, HTC!

[Zerstorer]

Can you provide video of this maneuver in Aces High?

Sadly I cannot....I have trouble with "film" due to technical reasons.  I run triple-screen which doesn't come out right in film viewer usually.  So I don't use the AH film record option often. 

(On a side note...I have high hopes for using DXtoxy soon to film my fights....I am in the process of testing the eval version now.  )


That said, I'm fairly certain some others pilots I know might have a few examples clips. 

[JunkyII]

Sounds like you are describing this, which isn't what I'm referring to as a "tailslide".  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfcsgF_h-60

FYI - you do see this in other sims (obviously....the film demonstration is in Cliffs of Dover).

Side Note:  Please add in the ability to embed Youtube videos one day, HTC!

Thank looked like a stick stir to me....like a complete accident, the hurri just missed the shot.

[Skyyr]

Thank looked like a stick stir to me....like a complete accident, the hurri just missed the shot.

That's what torque + a stall looks like, and that's fairly realistic looking from the behavior of it. Once a stall happens, the floor drops out from under you and you lose the majority of directional control. The stall behavior in Aces High is very odd and doesn't mimic any aircraft I've flown or seen. See here for what happens when you put an aircraft into a spin configuration (aka the "AH tailslide"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgvnGvShz4g

Stick-stirring is something also unique to Aces High, as it's the rubber-banding effect that happens when you move your stick around. The game engine in IL2 doesn't have the same rendering issues.

[JunkyII]

That's what torque + a stall looks like, and that's fairly realistic looking from the behavior of it. Once a stall happens, the floor drops out from under you and you lose the majority of directional control. The stall behavior in Aces High is very odd and doesn't mimic any aircraft I've flown or seen.

Stick-stirring is something also unique to Aces High, as it's the rubber-banding effect that happens when you move your stick around. The game engine in IL2 doesn't have the same rendering issues.

What I'm getting at is, it seems he didn't know what he was actually doing, maybe by accident he performed a maneuver, which the second half should not of happened if the Hurri knew how to aim(he looked forward just as the Hurri just about had a gun solution).

It wasn't some expert ACM on the half of the 109, it was failed ACM of the hurri.

[Zerstorer]

Thank looked like a stick stir to me....like a complete accident, the hurri just missed the shot.

It would look like a "stick stir" to you..you are used to flying "in water".  Search the forum posts....pretty sure this term has been used before...more than once...

Its a simple cross control input.  Looks "stick stirrish" to you because planes tend to stall more violently in Cliffs than in AH.

[JunkyII]

It would look like a "stick stir" to you..you are used to flying "in water".  Search the forum posts....pretty sure this term has been used before...more than once...

Its a simple cross control input.  Looks "stick stirrish" to you because planes tend to stall more violently in Cliffs than in AH.

He rolled twice, reversed his roll and cross controlled which set him in the stall....from the Hurri's POV he probably looked like a floppy dead fish.

again he didn't do anything special, the Hurricane is a fault for his own death. I only spent a little bit of time on Il2, I personally liked the fights in AH better maybe its better(more planes in a smaller area, AH had a lot more people in MA in that time), been like 5 years. Might have to check it out again.