Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: BBP on January 26, 2015, 04:26:29 PM
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So I've been told "keep your speed up" - so does this mean you'll rarely use your flaps? On many planes the flaps don't work until your down to 175. So what are the Flaps good for? The Flaps work to slow down, help stabilize your plane at slow speeds, give you lift when needed, create a tighter turn when deployed, and oh yes - back your parked plane up. :lol
I'm sure there is more I don't know. Can you veterans please list all there is to know about the use of flaps and when to use them, it is confusing for us rookies.
Thanks Very Much!
KimoSabe
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Flaps lower your stall speed. If you hear the stall horn and want to pull more on the stick add flaps. Get the flaps back up as soon as you can.
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Flaps will normally be used for landing, and sometimes for takeoff. When landing, you can use flaps to slow you down, lower your stall speed, and make your plane more stable at lower speed.
Some planes, such as the P-38 (My Plane! :x) can use flaps in combat. At a speed of 250 or below, I can drop two notches of flaps, and make my turn tighter. Flaps should be raised as soon as the turn is complete.
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Flaps are the double edged sword. They increase lift at the expense of drag. So the trick is knowing how much and for how long to use them. In most fights you'll use them is short bursts to get your shot and quickly pull them back in to maintain as much E as possible. Flaps like throttle useage could fill a book unto themselves and vary their use according to airframe, airspeed, AoA, etc. For example how you use your flaps in an F4U is widely different then a Spitfire. just as how effective flaps are vary widely across airframes as well, Ki-43 vs C205 for example.
:salute
BigRat
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Well Rat, I wouldn't mind hearing more about useage of Flaps on the F4U as that is the plane I am trying to learn on now. I have a bad habit of flying around full speed never using my Flaps, partly in fear of getting to slow and getting whacked. But I'm getting the idea of out to save you and in to save your speed.
KimoSabe
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Outside of combat use them:
On landing in combination with throttle
Taking off with heavy loads (bombers, attack fighters from carriers) or short runways (carriers for certain aircraft)
Any time you want to reduce stall speed
During combat use them:
To help you over the top of a loop at stall speeds
To tighten the corner on your opponent
General information:
Aircraft have differing flap speeds. For instance, most U.S. aircraft deploy at 250 mph, German at 175 and British at 150 although there are exceptions. I use these examples as they're most familiar to me.
Aircraft have differing flap settings. For instance most U.S. aircraft have five deployed settings, German three and British three with the major exception being the Spitfire at one (down).
In some aircraft, flaps are incredibly helpful. In others they're a hindrance.
In some aircraft or in certain situations, the use of other controls such as rudder or throttle (including WEP) can make flaps usage more effective.
The general consensus is to use just enough flaps (both in level of deployment and in time of deployment) needed to accomplish your goal. That said, you'll find "full flaps" fights in your time in AH.
Hope that helps.
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Thanks Much!
Very Interesting!
KimoSabe
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Flaps, I've always been told are a "feel" kinda thing. As everyone said they are different on each plane. One other point, Combat Trim doesn't take into effect the flap deployment. When in a 38 I can zoom to 75 mph and using flaps roll over at the top and maintain control to dive back and make a guns pass. With combat trim ON if I go that slow the game will try to trim the nose up and the plane will seem almost like it got stuck in the air and wallow at the top of a zoom. There are other effects in other planes due to combat trim. If your going to get that slow you might want to knock combat trim off.
As for the F4u, it sounds like your flying it more like a pony or FW, which is ok. The F4 has a great roll rate and you can use that to get around on your targets. If you do want to use your flaps in most cases your going to flip them out a notch or two and then pulling them back up to keep your speed up. Heres a great pony film. He uses a bit of flaps here and there to turn/slow for a shot but gets them back up again to maintain his speed.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/5c72lgl1q7992wh/51lulz.ahf
The fun thing with the F4 is you CAN turn with a lot of planes and really mix it up with them. The trick is you have to have good SA. If your in a furball situation then getting slow isn't the best idea as it takes a bit of time and space to build your speed back up.. If you do get low and slow and you throwing flaps out be sure you aren't the target of more than 1 or 2 :devil
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The other thing you need to know about flaps is that the first 50% extension gives you most of the increase in coefficient of lift, the second 50% gives you most of the increase in drag. When you do need flaps don't use more than you need.
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The other thing you need to know about flaps is that the first 50% extension gives you most of the increase in coefficient of lift, the second 50% gives you most of the increase in drag. When you do need flaps don't use more than you need.
Which aircraft in AH can you put out 50% flaps? Most of the aircraft in AH use a standard 5 point setting for flaps, the P38 flaps are not modeled correctly, the combat maneuvering setting in the P38 was neither 20% or 30% but somewhere in between, not an option in the AH P38.
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Which aircraft in AH can you put out 50% flaps?
Ummm... any aircraft that has an even number of flap settings (2, 4, 6, etc.). The Fw 190D-9 is one such aircraft.
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Ummm... any aircraft that has an even number of flap settings (2, 4, 6, etc.). The Fw 190D-9 is one such aircraft.
Again a faulty model, many aircraft and I believe most axis aircraft didn't have pre selected setting for flaps, those with electric motors , the pilot ran the flaps down or up based on his judgment .
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The best flap tip I was given was to let the flaps do the work and not increase drag by adding elevator unless you have to make a desperate shot.
Which aircraft in AH can you put out 50% flaps? Most of the aircraft in AH use a standard 5 point setting for flaps, the P38 flaps are not modeled correctly, the combat maneuvering setting in the P38 was neither 20% or 30% but somewhere in between, not an option in the AH P38.
Traveler, in a P-38, the first notch is 50% extension in the real world and 8 degrees of deflection. After the first notch the deflection really goes up with each notch of extension since the lower rail hits a stop. In AH the first notch represents the 50% extension and 8 degrees of deflection which is spoke of as the Maneuver flaps.
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Again a faulty model, many aircraft and I believe most axis aircraft didn't have pre selected setting for flaps, those with electric motors , the pilot ran the flaps down or up based on his judgment .
Doesn't matter - you asked which aircraft it could be done in, not which models were historically accurate. We're discussing game mechanics here, and FLS is correct as a general rule of thumb.
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You guys are missing the point. It's not relevant whether a particular aircraft has a 50% flap setting. The point is before 50% gives you most of the increase in lift coefficient, after 50% gives you the most increase in drag. This is a useful guide for new pilots.
You also should not assume the 4 or 5 flap settings are equally dividing the extension range.
The decision to model flaps with discrete settings is a game design choice. I believe aircraft with variable flap settings generally had markings for flap positions HTC models.
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The best flap tip I was given was to let the flaps do the work and not increase drag by adding elevator unless you have to make a desperate shot.
I wouldn't generally agree with that advice. You increase drag by adding lift and also by adding flaps. If you can make the turn with your elevator instead of your flaps you are better off.
Traveler, in a P-38, the first notch is 50% extension in the real world and 8 degrees of deflection. After the first notch the deflection really goes up with each notch of extension since the lower rail hits a stop. In AH the first notch represents the 50% extension and 8 degrees of deflection which is spoke of as the Maneuver flaps.
I don't think that's correct. The 3rd position is more likely for 50%. That's also indicated by the turn performance.
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You guys are missing the point. It's not relevant whether a particular aircraft has a 50% flap setting. The point is before 50% gives you most of the increase in lift coefficient, after 50% gives you the most increase in drag. This is a useful guide for new pilots.
You also should not assume the 4 or 5 flap settings are equally dividing the extension range.
The decision to model flaps with discrete settings is a game design choice. I believe aircraft with variable flap settings generally had markings for flap positions HTC models.
From the indicator in the cockpit in AH the gauges showing the flap extension appears to be even distribution for each increment of flap up or down, no matter what aircraft.
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From the indicator in the cockpit in AH the gauges showing the flap extension appears to be even distribution for each increment of flap up or down, no matter what aircraft.
You don't fly 190s much do you?
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You don't fly 190s much do you?
seldom , maybe once a year.
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The best flap tip I was given was to let the flaps do the work and not increase drag by adding elevator unless you have to make a desperate shot.
Agreed, for certain planes. Corsair and 38G, in my experience, benefit most from this technique, the 109s don't.
- oldman
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From the indicator in the cockpit in AH the gauges showing the flap extension appears to be even distribution for each increment of flap up or down, no matter what aircraft.
The deflection angles the indicator shows and what the graphic model shows and what the flight model uses don't have to agree. They may be exactly the same in some cases but it seems unlikely.
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Agreed, for certain planes. Corsair and 38G, in my experience, benefit most from this technique, the 109s don't.
- oldman
Good point. With the 38 you increase the wing area. That's probably what Randy was referring to. :aok
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The deflection angles the indicator shows and what the graphic model shows and what the flight model uses don't have to agree. They may be exactly the same in some cases but it seems unlikely.
how do you know this? has AH published this information somewhere?
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how do you know this? has AH published this information somewhere?
I believe it's been mentioned but I don't have a reference handy.
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I believe it's been mentioned but I don't have a reference handy.
Mentioned by Hightech Creations? or just mentioned by other players? Would be nice to know the official version.
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The flap indicators have never shown the angle the flaps are at, just which of the five/three/whatever positions they are in at a glance.
190 (including 152) flaps have 3 notches, the third one travels as far as both the top two combined and the indicator shows this as well. I'm not sure if any other planes have a notch that travels more or less than the others, but this shows that the indicator shows where the flaps are at from full up through full down.
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how do you know this? has AH published this information somewhere?
The confusion comes when extension and deflection become interchangeable. The P-38 is a Fowler flap hybrid. The flap drops just enough to clear the trailing edge then slides back until the full flap is out of the pocket and extended behind the trailing edge fully. In doing that it goes to 8 degrees deflection. This gives the most efficient flap setting. From this point on any further extension of the flap stops since the bottom guide rail hits a stop. The top rail is still open. That means the bottom of the flap is held firm while the top edge of the flap is being pushed back greatly increasing the deflection angle without any further extension of the flap from the trailing edge of the wing..
In an old post HTC noted the first notch in AH P-38 was modeled to that 8 degrees which is about 50% of the top rail travel and 100% of the bottom rail travel in a real P-38. Another old post noted not to consider each notch to be equal since planes had different flap styles.
Keep in mind a flap on a plane like a door hinge to the trailing edge or split flaps offers no extension to the wing cord but Fowler flaps do add to the wing cord. I am guessing here but I think the word "extension got tied to flaps with the invent of fowler like flaps.
Best I can tell HTC did a super job of modeling our AH flaps making them as close to real world as practical.
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The other thing you need to know about flaps is that the first 50% extension gives you most of the increase in coefficient of lift, the second 50% gives you most of the increase in drag. When you do need flaps don't use more than you need.
Real world never heard this expressed as a percentage. I've always heard up to about 20 degrees is good, beyond that is just more drag.
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Real world never heard this expressed as a percentage. I've always heard up to about 20 degrees is good, beyond that is just more drag.
If you have 40 degrees full extension that would fit. :D It's meant to be a general point for understanding flaps effect on lift and drag.
Real world reference for this expression is Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators pg 45.
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Link to full post
Thank you Randy1 for this imensely helpful post! Most of us forget or miss the fact that some planes have the fowler (spelling?) flaps which have an impact on the wings cord!
On most planes, from my experience, anything beyond the first two settings are useful for trying to slow your plane down or to help create lift at slower speeds but does not in fact dicrease your turn radious or increase your turn rate. I remember a conversation sometime back where corshair pilots were testing this out with their flap settings and decided thT anything over two notches is detramental for trying to get better turn performance at a fixed speed but is more usefull for its braking power, snapping the nose back under the horizon when near an inverted and slow attitude, and holding onto a little bit of lift when in a stall fight (but not to be kept out the whole time).
Does this make sense to you guys?
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Thank you Randy1 for this imensely helpful post! Most of us forget or miss the fact that some planes have the fowler (spelling?) flaps which have an impact on the wings cord!
On most planes, from my experience, anything beyond the first two settings are useful for trying to slow your plane down or to help create lift at slower speeds but does not in fact dicrease your turn radious or increase your turn rate. I remember a conversation sometime back where corshair pilots were testing this out with their flap settings and decided thT anything over two notches is detramental for trying to get better turn performance at a fixed speed but is more usefull for its braking power, snapping the nose back under the horizon when near an inverted and slow attitude, and holding onto a little bit of lift when in a stall fight (but not to be kept out the whole time).
Does this make sense to you guys?
The anything more than 2 notches of flaps out in F4U model planes only applies to the following F4U-1A, F4U-1D, F4U-1C, F4U-4..... the F4U-1 is capable and able to maintain its turn radius & turn rate all the way to having full flaps extended, it does not lose any turn performance if you go past using 2 notches of flaps extended, to where as the other F4U series/models will decrease in turn performance after 2 notches of flaps ( using more than 2 notches ), the F4U-1 model stays constant from 1st notch flaps deployed thru full flaps deployed
Badboy has even posted the EM Charts/Diagrams showing this several times in years past.......
hope this helps
TC
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The anything more than 2 notches of flaps out in F4U model planes only applies to the following F4U-1A, F4U-1D, F4U-1C, F4U-4..... the F4U-1 is capable and able to maintain its turn radius & turn rate all the way to having full flaps extended, it does not lose any turn performance if you go past using 2 notches of flaps extended, to where as the other F4U series/models will decrease in turn performance after 2 notches of flaps ( using more than 2 notches ), the F4U-1 model stays constant from 1st notch flaps deployed thru full flaps deployed
Badboy has even posted the EM Charts/Diagrams showing this several times in years past.......
hope this helps
TC
Yes, thank you for that correction, I forgot all about the F4U-1 flap performance.
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Well I watched a film today of a pilot flying a P-51. He had the Flaps working. But what I noticed was when he was cruising he kept his speed right at 249. That let him deploy the flaps whenever he needed them. And that is my misunderstanding. How can you keep the plane fast - say 300 and use your Flaps?
YOU CAN'T!!!
So is it standard procedure to cruise at Flap speed? On some planes I guess you can but others you can't. Many planes won't deploy Flaps till 190. Who is going to fly around at that speed just so they can use the Flaps? This can be confusing! :headscratch:
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You don't need flaps when you're going 300 MPH because you can already turn hard enough to black out.
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So is it standard procedure to cruise at Flap speed?
No it's not. For a fighter pilot, speed is life. It's easier to burn off speed (i.e. energy) than it is to regain it. The ability to start flaps out at a relatively high speed in the Mustang allows the pilot to generate turn rate to gain the advantage on the opponent.
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Some players make good use of flaps, others don't. For the most part, we learn how to employ flaps from experience, but in some cases, even after significant experience it is still all too easy to get it wrong. One reason for this is the difficulty getting the quality experience in the first place and also the difficulty getting good information.
Before I give you my take on this I need to make some general comments on the use of flaps in air combat. It is fairly commonly known that using flaps changes the camber of the wing and that this changes both the lift and drag. Most players are aware that the lift increases, and the drag also increases, but what is important is the ratio between the increase in lift and drag and that ratio is known as the aerodynamic efficiency. Depending on the type of flaps and how much they are deflected, the influence of the flaps on the profile and induced drag in proportion to the lift can result in either an increase or decrease in the resulting aerodynamic efficiency of the wing. What that means is that the use of flaps can be good or bad in terms of the price you have to pay for the increase in lift.
What does that mean in terms of air combat? During an engagement, the differences in lift and drag are apparent by the influence on the way our aircraft can turn. Employing flaps generally results in higher instantaneous turn rates, and a smaller turn radius. However, in the case of a sustained turn, while the turn radius is always reduced, the sustained turn rate may either increase or decrease.
In cases where a particular flap deflection results in a reduction in turn radius, and an increase in the sustained turn rate, it is very important to identify that, because it can be highly desirable to fly in that configuration. However, it is more common for a reduction in turn radius to be accompanied by a reduction in the sustained turn rate. In those cases it is essential to know when you need to minimise your turn radius, or when it is more important to maximise your sustained turn rate.
The answer is this… Generally, (I need to speak in general terms because there are exceptions and I will come to that later) it is better to minimise your turn radius in a one circle fight (nose to nose turns) and to maximise your turn rate in a two circle fight (nose to tail). This is a very important point, it is so important that many players lose fights because they fail to understand the subtleties of it.
In order to make best use of the differences in radius and rate caused by the use of flaps, it is necessary to know how your turn radius and turn rate are influenced by the use of flaps in a sustained turn. That information is conveyed most readily by means of a diagram showing the turn circle for a fixed time. That way the turn radii can be seen relative to each other, and because the circles are drawn for a fixed time, the differences in sustained turn rates will be apparent because some lines will extend farther around the circle than others. You can see this by inspecting the following diagram.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/TurnF4U1D.gif)
Here you can see that the F4U1D benefits from a tighter turn radius and an increased sustained turn rate when flaps are employed. You will notice that the best sustained turn rate occurs when the flaps are deflected by two notches. That's the best place to be in nose to tail fight, because the way to win that kind of fight is simply to win the turn rate war. You need to gain angles on your opponent until you move around the circle onto his tail. In order to do that you need to know how to maximise your sustained turn rate. The diagram above shows you exactly how to do that.
You can also see that if you deflect the flaps on the F4U1D beyond two notches, you pay for it with a reducing sustained turn rate. Notice also that once you get to four notches, the fifth and final notch gives you a slightly tighter radius with an insignificantly small reduction in rate. So for this particular aircraft, once you enter a turn fight, you should use only two notches of flaps as long as you are turning nose to tail to optimise your rate, and if the fight goes nose to nose, such as in a scissors, where you need to reduce speed and minimise your turn radius, use full flaps.
Lastly, if the situation changes don't be afraid to work the flaps. If the fight is nose to nose and you employ full flaps as appropriate in that case, but the situation changes to one where you find your self chasing the bandits tail, don't be afraid to reduce your flap deflection in order to improve your turn rate, and thus out turn your opponent.
Having said that, few things in life are cut and dry, and even that wisdom isn't always safe. It all depends on the aircraft. For example, take a look at the diagram for the A6M2 shown below:
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/ZekeR1.gif)
You will see that this case is very different from the previous one. Instead of the flaps producing an increase in the sustained turn rate as it did in with the F4U1D, you now notice that as the flaps are deflected the turn radius tightens up as expected, but now the sustained turn rate drops also. You can see that while there is a significant drop in sustained turn rate for the first and second notch of flap deflection, the second, third and fourth positions all have very similar turn rates.
The conclusion you can draw from this is that for this aircraft, if you want to maximise your turn rate, don't use your flaps at all. There is no sweet spot as there was with the F4U1D. Also, if you feel the need to deflect the flaps by two notches, you might as well go all the way, because you will get a tighter turn radius and your sustained turn rate won't diminish any farther than it already has. However, in this case the turn radii are small and the reduction in radius at full flaps is significant and that introduces another complication.
Most of us learn fairly quickly that the right thing to do in a nose to tail turn would be to optimise turn rate, however because the circles are so small in this example, there is a danger that a player who drops full flaps may be able to pull his nose inside his opponent's turn for a shot across the circle. If the shot succeeds, the energy sacrificed will be worthwhile, but if you don't make the shot, at worst it may very quickly prove fatal, or at best the energy lost in the attempt will haunt you throughout the remainder of the fight. That's why some players will deliberately offer the prospect of a shot in the hope that their opponent will go full flaps and give up all their energy for a first shot opportunity.
On the other hand, getting slow quickly and using full flaps is a strategy that can be an effective way to get quick kills if you always take the fight one circle, in a scissors type engagement, in which case full flaps is almost always the right thing to do. It can be so effective against weaker players that it is easy to get locked into that way of fighting. The catch is that a good player can force the fight back to a nose to tail turn, and if they are good at optimising aircraft performance in that that situation, and if they have a proper understanding of the relationship between angles and energy, the fight can become very difficult for the player stuck at full flaps with a one circle fixation. The longer such a player allows themselves to remain in that situation, the more they continue to lose angles and energy until they become entirely defensive.
The bottom line is that good players develop a feel for when and how to use flaps so that they can maximise aircraft performance for the situation they are in. They simply know where the sweet spot is for their particular ride. It takes hundreds of hours of top quality fighting to develop the skills needed to excel in this, so my advice to anyone who hasn't figured it out yet is this:
Forget about trying to survive, speed is life, but you won't learn as much that way. Get stuck in at every opportunity, seek out tough fights because quality experience produces accelerated learning and adrenaline packed fun! That is the best way to make rapid progress, because as other players appreciate your willingness to engage and have fun, the better ones will be equally willing to help, its a win win situation.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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With our 190's Hitech is being kind. Translate the manuals and you find the 190's had three settings available from the cockpit, each with a push button for the setting. Flight, landing, takeoff. To assist this, there was a hole in the top of the wing the pilot could see through from the cockpit, where a graduated semicircular scale of 0-60 in 10 degree increments showed through as the flaps actuated.
So how many flap down positions do our 190 have in this game? Wonder if the 152 holds true to this. Should be easy to look at a cockpit photo and count the buttons.
But hey, our I16 has both flaperons and split flaps which no I16 Type was ever mounted with both. Since the flaperon was replaced with the split flap to stop the death of pilots. And the first generation of split flaps actuated with an air bottle, killed pilots due to the sudden and dramatic extension of "air brakes". This was fixed by using a hand crank which took forever to lower and raise the split flaps. But, stopped killing pilots. Our version(s) of the I16 should only have the hand cranked split flaps. That's why in game when you pop the flaps, very often you commit suicide. I Wish listed this with in depth visuals to help Hitech and Waffle fix it "some day"........
So did someone post that the Fw 190's in our game have "3" flap down positions??
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FLS why would I want to turn fast and hard to pass out? I would really rather turn a little to slow my plane enough to use my flaps as they were intended.
KimoSabe
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BBP I have some videos that cover some aspects of working with flaps and rudder.....it doesnt cover everything and it is in a turny bird but it will show you some views.
Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDCJj706Pqk&index=39&list=PL54E5CE4C59347B00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDCJj706Pqk&index=39&list=PL54E5CE4C59347B00)
Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6USkuXdbc4&list=PL54E5CE4C59347B00&index=40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6USkuXdbc4&list=PL54E5CE4C59347B00&index=40)
Part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6USkuXdbc4&list=PL54E5CE4C59347B00&index=40 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6USkuXdbc4&list=PL54E5CE4C59347B00&index=40)
Those links will also take you to a playlist that has other videos that may have handy info. :D
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FLS why would I want to turn fast and hard to pass out? I would really rather turn a little to slow my plane enough to use my flaps as they were intended.
KimoSabe
I never said you did. I said there is no turn advantage with flaps at 300 MPH.
The graphs Badboy made show flaps effect on best sustained turn performance. Sustained turn performance is under 190 MPH.
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Some players make good use of flaps, others don't. For the most part, we learn how to employ flaps from experience, but in some cases, even after significant experience it is still all too easy to get it wrong. One reason for this is the difficulty getting the quality experience in the first place and also the difficulty getting good information.
Before I give you my take on this I need to make some general comments on the use of flaps in air combat. It is fairly commonly known that using flaps changes the camber of the wing and that this changes both the lift and drag. Most players are aware that the lift increases, and the drag also increases, but what is important is the ratio between the increase in lift and drag and that ratio is known as the aerodynamic efficiency. Depending on the type of flaps and how much they are deflected, the influence of the flaps on the profile and induced drag in proportion to the lift can result in either an increase or decrease in the resulting aerodynamic efficiency of the wing. What that means is that the use of flaps can be good or bad in terms of the price you have to pay for the increase in lift.
What does that mean in terms of air combat? During an engagement, the differences in lift and drag are apparent by the influence on the way our aircraft can turn. Employing flaps generally results in higher instantaneous turn rates, and a smaller turn radius. However, in the case of a sustained turn, while the turn radius is always reduced, the sustained turn rate may either increase or decrease.
In cases where a particular flap deflection results in a reduction in turn radius, and an increase in the sustained turn rate, it is very important to identify that, because it can be highly desirable to fly in that configuration. However, it is more common for a reduction in turn radius to be accompanied by a reduction in the sustained turn rate. In those cases it is essential to know when you need to minimise your turn radius, or when it is more important to maximise your sustained turn rate.
The answer is this… Generally, (I need to speak in general terms because there are exceptions and I will come to that later) it is better to minimise your turn radius in a one circle fight (nose to nose turns) and to maximise your turn rate in a two circle fight (nose to tail). This is a very important point, it is so important that many players lose fights because they fail to understand the subtleties of it.
In order to make best use of the differences in radius and rate caused by the use of flaps, it is necessary to know how your turn radius and turn rate are influenced by the use of flaps in a sustained turn. That information is conveyed most readily by means of a diagram showing the turn circle for a fixed time. That way the turn radii can be seen relative to each other, and because the circles are drawn for a fixed time, the differences in sustained turn rates will be apparent because some lines will extend farther around the circle than others. You can see this by inspecting the following diagram.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/TurnF4U1D.gif)
Here you can see that the F4U1D benefits from a tighter turn radius and an increased sustained turn rate when flaps are employed. You will notice that the best sustained turn rate occurs when the flaps are deflected by two notches. That's the best place to be in nose to tail fight, because the way to win that kind of fight is simply to win the turn rate war. You need to gain angles on your opponent until you move around the circle onto his tail. In order to do that you need to know how to maximise your sustained turn rate. The diagram above shows you exactly how to do that.
You can also see that if you deflect the flaps on the F4U1D beyond two notches, you pay for it with a reducing sustained turn rate. Notice also that once you get to four notches, the fifth and final notch gives you a slightly tighter radius with an insignificantly small reduction in rate. So for this particular aircraft, once you enter a turn fight, you should use only two notches of flaps as long as you are turning nose to tail to optimise your rate, and if the fight goes nose to nose, such as in a scissors, where you need to reduce speed and minimise your turn radius, use full flaps.
Lastly, if the situation changes don't be afraid to work the flaps. If the fight is nose to nose and you employ full flaps as appropriate in that case, but the situation changes to one where you find your self chasing the bandits tail, don't be afraid to reduce your flap deflection in order to improve your turn rate, and thus out turn your opponent.
Having said that, few things in life are cut and dry, and even that wisdom isn't always safe. It all depends on the aircraft. For example, take a look at the diagram for the A6M2 shown below:
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/ZekeR1.gif)
You will see that this case is very different from the previous one. Instead of the flaps producing an increase in the sustained turn rate as it did in with the F4U1D, you now notice that as the flaps are deflected the turn radius tightens up as expected, but now the sustained turn rate drops also. You can see that while there is a significant drop in sustained turn rate for the first and second notch of flap deflection, the second, third and fourth positions all have very similar turn rates.
The conclusion you can draw from this is that for this aircraft, if you want to maximise your turn rate, don't use your flaps at all. There is no sweet spot as there was with the F4U1D. Also, if you feel the need to deflect the flaps by two notches, you might as well go all the way, because you will get a tighter turn radius and your sustained turn rate won't diminish any farther than it already has. However, in this case the turn radii are small and the reduction in radius at full flaps is significant and that introduces another complication.
Most of us learn fairly quickly that the right thing to do in a nose to tail turn would be to optimise turn rate, however because the circles are so small in this example, there is a danger that a player who drops full flaps may be able to pull his nose inside his opponent's turn for a shot across the circle. If the shot succeeds, the energy sacrificed will be worthwhile, but if you don't make the shot, at worst it may very quickly prove fatal, or at best the energy lost in the attempt will haunt you throughout the remainder of the fight. That's why some players will deliberately offer the prospect of a shot in the hope that their opponent will go full flaps and give up all their energy for a first shot opportunity.
On the other hand, getting slow quickly and using full flaps is a strategy that can be an effective way to get quick kills if you always take the fight one circle, in a scissors type engagement, in which case full flaps is almost always the right thing to do. It can be so effective against weaker players that it is easy to get locked into that way of fighting. The catch is that a good player can force the fight back to a nose to tail turn, and if they are good at optimising aircraft performance in that that situation, and if they have a proper understanding of the relationship between angles and energy, the fight can become very difficult for the player stuck at full flaps with a one circle fixation. The longer such a player allows themselves to remain in that situation, the more they continue to lose angles and energy until they become entirely defensive.
The bottom line is that good players develop a feel for when and how to use flaps so that they can maximise aircraft performance for the situation they are in. They simply know where the sweet spot is for their particular ride. It takes hundreds of hours of top quality fighting to develop the skills needed to excel in this, so my advice to anyone who hasn't figured it out yet is this:
Forget about trying to survive, speed is life, but you won't learn as much that way. Get stuck in at every opportunity, seek out tough fights because quality experience produces accelerated learning and adrenaline packed fun! That is the best way to make rapid progress, because as other players appreciate your willingness to engage and have fun, the better ones will be equally willing to help, its a win win situation.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
Thank You, Badboy, for your in depth analysis on Flap Management ( when to use, when not to use and the upsides and downfalls Flap Management all en tells )
enjoyed seeing another good thought provoking post from you, again, thanks
Cheers , hope you are doing well!
TC ( Johnny )
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FLS why would I want to turn fast and hard to pass out? I would really rather turn a little to slow my plane enough to use my flaps as they were intended.
You don't actually want to pass out, but if you begin a turn at any speed above corner velocity with the intention of maximizing your turn rate, you should pull all the way to the edge of your physiological limit, in Aces High that means that you pull until most of the screen is black and you are maintaining a visual on the bandit by looking through a small window of visibility at the center of your screen. To get the most angles for the least cost in energy while above corner velocity, you should maintain full throttle, fly on the edge of the black out and reduce speed by turning so as to gain altitude, and a spiral climb can work well in that situation. Turn hard and high! Once your speed drops below corner you can maintain your optimal turn rate by transitioning to a nose low turn, giving back the altitude you just gained in an effort to keep your speed as close to corner for as long as possible and thus benefit from the very high turn rates that can be achieved at speeds near corner velocity. If you judge it wrong and your speed goes just above corner you will start to black out again, but the secret is not to ease off the G, but to just raise the nose slightly to control your speed and maintain the turn rate... The point is that riding the edge of the black out is an important skill.
If you have a considerable amount of excess speed, the best option is not to turn hard at all and fly the early stage of the fight as an energy fight, and then transition back to an angles fight after you have used your energy to gain a positional advantage. If you don't have time for that and your excess speed is more of an embarrassment than a benefit you can turn hard, turn high and also reduce throttle at the same time. With practice you can learn to control your energy with G, Altitude and the throttle to get to the elbow with great efficiency.
Hope that helps
Badboy
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Cheers , hope you are doing well!
Yep, doing great thanks. Did you drop out for a while there?
Haven't seen you on the boards for while.
You still have the same phone number?
Regards
Badboy
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(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/TurnF4U1D.gif)
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/ZekeR1.gif)
Thank You, Badboy, for your in depth analysis on Flap Management ( when to use, when not to use and the upsides and downfalls Flap Management all en tells )
enjoyed seeing another good thought provoking post from you, again, thanks
Cheers , hope you are doing well!
TC ( Johnny )
I second this!
As usual your post is very educational and clear.
Would you mind giving your advice on testing out different aircrafts to get a general idea for determining their flap performance for all those following this thread? I've got the general idea of just taking a flight at sea level in the TA and entering a sustained and level turn for x time at different flap settings, but I was wondering if you've got any input to help facilitate the process or to make the effects of the flaps more obvious.
Thankyou again Badboy!
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A quick way to compare slow speed turn performance is to compare the lowest speed you can maintain a given load like 3g in a level turn. You can compare flap settings or different aircraft this way.
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Great posts BadBoy <S>.
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HOLY CRAP BATMAN.......egh aghhhhhhhh RatMan!
I'm practicing everything y'all have posted and its really good stuff. I am having one problem. I'm in the F4U-1A. I get hot on the tail and the Dude cuts a hard right. In the F4U-1A..........NO PROBLEM..............sept. I stay with the dude on two extention of flaps. I've managed to close it down to 200. I start to pull the trigger but the Flaps have me lifting the guns off the dude. I push down on my nose and oooops, go to far. Let up some and I'm floating above the dude again. Darn,he escapes with a few bullet holes.
How do you hold the bead steady on the guy and fight the rising flaps too? :bhead :bhead :bhead
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BBP,
Well one of two ways you deal with that issue of nose bounce with flaps deployed. Learn to fly with manual trim in a dogfight or learn to compensate for the combat trim while taking the shot. I personally just learned to compensate, but others have better luck with manual trim. Find what works best for you.
:salute
BigRat
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How do you hold the bead steady on the guy and fight the rising flaps too? :bhead :bhead :bhead
As BigRat said, the problem isn't the flaps, it's combat trim adjusting to your slower speed without taking the flaps into consideration. Without the flaps, combat trim would set the elevator for level flight at your current speed with the stick centered. Because you have flaps down combat trim causes you to pitch up and you have to push the stick forward for level flight.
A quick fix is to map combat trim to a button and turn it off before you use flaps. This is easy to do and easy to forget to do.
You can also turn off combat trim and briefly use auto level to set your trim to cruise speed before the merge. This will give you some nose heavy trim for the fight which is generally a good idea. In addition to fixing your problem it also lets you avoid any deadband at stick center when you're making fine adjustments to your aim. You just pull more or less instead of push/pull across the dead spot.
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As BigRat said, the problem isn't the flaps, it's combat trim adjusting to your slower speed without taking the flaps into consideration. Without the flaps, combat trim would set the elevator for level flight at your current speed with the stick centered. Because you have flaps down combat trim causes you to pitch up and you have to push the stick forward for level flight.
A quick fix is to map combat trim to a button and turn it off before you use flaps. This is easy to do and easy to forget to do.
You can also turn off combat trim and briefly use auto level to set your trim to cruise speed before the merge. This will give you some nose heavy trim for the fight which is generally a good idea. In addition to fixing your problem it also lets you avoid any deadband at stick center when you're making fine adjustments to your aim. You just pull more or less instead of push/pull across the dead spot.
Yep, what FLS and BigRat have posted above.....
I have flown he F4U-1 since it first showed up in Aces High, and prefer it over all other F4U models......with that said, I approach the combat trim vs flaps fighting each other in the following way:
upon launching my F4U-1 and taking of / grabbing altitude, I will normally use auto climb as well as use combat trim turned on, as I am inbound to my target or patrol area. Now as I get closer to where I am going to be patrolling or dogfighting, etc... I will level out and build my level flight cruise speed up to between 310 mph IAS upwards to 330 mph IAS ( IAS = Indicated Air Speed = the WHITE MPH needle ), now once I have reached this desired 310 to 330 IAS speed while having CT ( combat Trim ) enabled and in level flight with no stick inputs ( be sure to have no aileron input, no elevator input, no rudder input), disengage CT (Combat Trim )!!! Also, be sure to not be using WEP either, while setting your desired speed / trim.... WEP being on will just throw your trim off a little and make it less beneficial once you start to dogfight
The reason I set my controls / trim up in this manner is for several reasons, FLS mentioned it slightly in his above post when he said:
You can also turn off combat trim and briefly use auto level to set your trim to cruise speed before the merge. This will give you some nose heavy trim for the fight which is generally a good idea. In addition to fixing your problem it also lets you avoid any deadband at stick center when you're making fine adjustments to your aim.
Another tip: if you are flying towards some enemy planes and you do not have quiet enough speed built up to get your controls trimmed out and set properly, you can engage combat trim , make sure all flaps are up/in and hit WEP and put your F4U into a slight shallow nose dive ( nose just slightly below the horizon so you do not give up a lot of altitude ), carefully watching the speed increase to 310 IAS and keeping your stick inputs to a minimal, just maintain wings level..... Once you hit around 310 IAS disengage WEP first, then disengage CT.................continue in your shallow dive for a couple more seconds before leveling out and climbing back up to your desired altitude......
As FLS posted, it is easier to shoot at your bogey, when you have a gentle pull on your joystick which makes it much easier to steady your piper/bore-sight and hold it on your target, verses trying to fight the Combat Trim / Flaps struggle of pushing and pulling your joystick trying to hold a good bead on your target!
Another benefit of using manual trim, when flying the F4U series is that when I am climbing up or chasing someone up in the vertical and they proceed to drop flaps.... I can drop notches of flaps with out any impunity of having to worry about CT ( combat trim ) fighting against my stick inputs or extended flaps, which could possibly cause me to stall or spin even....
Also, while dogfighting and when one might get slow as they near the top of their loop or reversal and they may need to drop a notch or 2 of flaps to help them get over the top, if they have CT turned on, it will take them a few extra seconds to regain that speed once they are heading back down, to where as I, myself, am able to regain / pick up speed a good bit faster being already trimmed out at around 310/330 IAS.... once my nose is pointed back below the horizon I am immediately raising as many notches of flaps as I deem necessary according to the situation...
Hope this helps....
TC
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Thanks Guys! Its much appreciated!
KimoSabe
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I am having one problem. I'm in the F4U-1A. I get hot on the tail and the Dude cuts a hard right. In the F4U-1A..........NO PROBLEM..............sept. I stay with the dude on two extention of flaps. I've managed to close it down to 200. I start to pull the trigger but the Flaps have me lifting the guns off the dude. I push down on my nose and oooops, go to far. Let up some and I'm floating above the dude again. Darn,he escapes with a few bullet holes.
How do you hold the bead steady on the guy and fight the rising flaps too? :bhead :bhead :bhead
Hello BBP,
one thing I just noticed regarding your above post, where you typed that while you are in your F4U-1A and are hot on the tail of your opponent, when suddenly they execute or perform a "cut, hard right"
here is a tip that might help you out in future situations when turning to the right in all of the F4U series planes......
Usually when you are flying along in your Big Blue F4U and are turning toward the left, one has no problems at all even while turning and using WOT or WOT w/WEP, even
BUT: when trying to do the same thing but you find yourself turning to the right, you might find at times that the torque from the F4U , especially when using WEP, you will find yourself fighting the turn, for the torque is wanting to roll you back toward the left!
To counter this situation, as well as help you turn toward the right better and even gain ground ( gain angles while turning right ), I recommend that you back off on the throttle a couple to few % , instead of tying to turn to the right using 100% throttle, try turning with like anywhere in between 92% to 97% throttle......
You will find that you will actually be able to gain closure rate and angles on your opponent instead of giving up angles and distance to them when trying to use 100% throttle
Hope This Helps
TC
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I tried going back to CT but it was a no go. That being said though If I try to manual trim efficiently on a plane choice I don't fly often it doesn't work so well. You have to develop an eye for manual trim. I have a button to switch to CT for those situations. Just have to remember to switch back to CT after an auto flight selection.
There is a stiffness with CT that I just don't like. Kind of like having to yank the plane out of a given path.
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TequilaChaser
Thanks Man,
In fact I was having that trouble as well. It was only intermittent so I didn't think to much of it because it seemed to go away. Now I know what was going on. I've had that issue on other planes a lot. I tend to fly flat out open throttle. Always trying to catch the guy!
In fact I've had the right wing point to the up position while attempting a right hand turn. The left wing will be on its way up and its like it got slapped down and the right wings comes up taking it place. This of course sends me in a different direction.
Thanks again for the info...........thanks to all. I got one more question I'm going to post but its a new topic.
KimoSabe
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I recently found something that I find interesting throwing my plane around in the DA. Lets say I find myself under 200mph being b&zed by someone with flaps disengaged. They come in from my 6, or 4, or 8oclock range hauling azz. Instead of hitting flaps for optimal control right away, I utilize a quick snap roll to throw off their shot, whilst kicking 2 knotches then following them up. This gives me a quick shot at their tail and makes em sweat a bit. Just another trick in the bag so I'm not doing the same thing every time a fast one swoops on me.
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In fact I've had the right wing point to the up position while attempting a right hand turn. The left wing will be on its way up and its like it got slapped down and the right wings comes up taking it place. This of course sends me in a different direction.
It sounds to me like this issue you are describing above is not torque-related, but is actually the result of a stall. One wing is stalling in the turn, causing the plane to "flip" (snap roll) the other way. Essentially you are trying to turn too hard to follow your opponent, stalling a wing and losing the positional advantage you wanted.
In this case, instead of trying to match his turn, perhaps a high yo-yo or low yo-yo would be better, depending on your relative energy state (are you faster or slower than the opponent you are trying turn with?).
<S>
Ryno
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You know I think that's really what it is. I have fast hands and quick reflexes being a tennis pro. I'm always to fast with the stick.
Thanks Again!
Kimo
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Would anyone have comments on FLAP useage for a P-51?
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The advice already posted pertains to the P-51 also. The P-51 has a high speed combat flap setting of 10 degrees but again, if you're already going fast enough to pull 6 g and black out you don't need flaps.
The P-51's corner speed is around 260 MPH, depending on weight and altitude. Corner speed gives you the best turn rate and smallest radius. Corner speed is defined as the slowest speed you can pull max g. In our case that's blackout at 6g. If you want to pull 6g at less than 260 mph you'll need flaps. Since you create a lot of drag with that much lift you slow down very quickly even without flaps. Turn rate you can't maintain is referred to as instantaneous turn rate, you may only have it for an instant unless descending, as opposed to sustained turn rate where thrust and drag are balanced.
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TequilaChaser
Thanks Man,
In fact I was having that trouble as well. It was only intermittent so I didn't think to much of it because it seemed to go away. Now I know what was going on. I've had that issue on other planes a lot. I tend to fly flat out open throttle. Always trying to catch the guy!
In fact I've had the right wing point to the up position while attempting a right hand turn. The left wing will be on its way up and its like it got slapped down and the right wings comes up taking it place. This of course sends me in a different direction.
Thanks again for the info...........thanks to all. I got one more question I'm going to post but its a new topic.
KimoSabe
From the description, you may be experiencing an accelerated stall. If so, the Mustang will snap to follow the rudder input. For example, in the right turn if your rudder is coordinated (ball centered) or too much right rudder, it will snap to the right. If not enough rudder is applied, i.e. too much left rudder, it will snap to the left. :salute