Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dimebag on February 25, 2015, 06:48:01 PM
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seriously considering jumping in head first into sport flying..
Currently, I have no license or no experience, but I know I would love being able to do it. The opportunities it would open as far as travel is concerned are amazing..
I've been looking at Lightning LS1's, Cessna 162s, Czech SportCruisers, enclosed canopy planes with lots of fancy avionics...
Besides the cost of the plane itself, what can I expect?
-License (1200 using my plane, 3000 using theirs)
-hangar fee's 1200 a year
-insurance 1500 a year
-gas, be it av or auto 3.50-5.50 a gallon
-maintenance fund (oil changes, tune ups, etc)
I've done the math on this to the best of my knowledge, if I buy a low hour plane (less than 200 hours) I can set back 25-30 per hour of flight (plus fuel) and be prepared when TBO time comes for the engine replacement, that's granted I don't sell the plane at 800 hours or so and get another low hour one.
besides the unexpected, what else? for that matter, what unexpected should be expected?
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I've always heard that if you fly, it ends up costing $125/hr when all the costs are added up.
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seriously considering jumping in head first into sport flying..
Currently, I have no license or no experience, but I know I would love being able to do it. The opportunities it would open as far as travel is concerned are amazing..
I've been looking at Lightning LS1's, Cessna 162s, Czech SportCruisers, enclosed canopy planes with lots of fancy avionics...
Besides the cost of the plane itself, what can I expect?
-License (1200 using my plane, 3000 using theirs)
-hangar fee's 1200 a year
-insurance 1500 a year
-gas, be it av or auto 3.50-5.50 a gallon
-maintenance fund (oil changes, tune ups, etc)
I've done the math on this to the best of my knowledge, if I buy a low hour plane (less than 200 hours) I can set back 25-30 per hour of flight (plus fuel) and be prepared when TBO time comes for the engine replacement, that's granted I don't sell the plane at 800 hours or so and get another low hour one.
besides the unexpected, what else? for that matter, what unexpected should be expected?
I haven't any experience with the sport pilot license, or with planes limited to that use, so your figures may be accurate. Otherwise, I would be surprised if you could get 100LL for $5.50/gallon anywhere. Hanger fees, same thing (around here - perhaps more expensive than by you - you're looking at $400+ per month). Don't know if you have to do an annual inspection on sport planes, but I suspect you do. For my purposes, I figure that a hangered plane here will run $10,000/year, without even flying it.
But that's around here. Go over to your local airport and start getting real prices from the FBO. Talk to the A&P mechanics, see what they charge. And go over the FARs again to see just exactly what maintenance you're committed to.
- oldman
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knew I was forgetting something...
annuals... 800 a year
our hangar (inside) is 100 a month if paid for a year up front... reckon that's a deal from what else I've read
I know all the costs vary on how much I fly... at 4-5 gallons per hour, I think I can go for 60 an hour tops.. and at 135 mph cruise, I can get down the highway a ways..
pondering a RV7 too, but being a real plane with higher horsepower engine, the license is 3 times as high and the fuel burn is a smidge higher, but I can also cruise at 175 or so. need to compare insurance... it really surprised me insurance was as cheap as it was for a rookie pilot... that's a good thing!
will check out local airports and pilots as soon as my car sells... till then, plane is just a dream anyway
thanks for the replies and looking forward to more
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oh yea, other perk to light sport plane is the majority have a whole plane parachute
if that aint reason enough to pick that over a "real" plane, I don't know what is lol
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I owned a 1957 Cessna 182 for 9 years.
Annuals varied from a little over $1000 to $6000 plus (first year, had to get things legal/right). If you I/A will allow you to help with the annual (remove covers, etc) it will save you a considerable amount of money.
My insurance was about $1500/year. I had around 1000 hours total, 500+ in type, Commercial and Instrument. I had no restrictions on use of the aircraft, I could land on glaciers, gravel bars, etc. Quite often insurance will restrict where you can operate, sometimes restricting you to paved runways.
While the Light/Sport aircraft are cheaper and the certificate is easier to get you might find that category lacking. The aircraft by definition are limited to two people, they are low powered and have limited load carrying capability. The Cessna 162 shows a useful load of 490 pounds. With two 170 pounds people that only leaves 150 pounds for fuel, survival gear, underwear and toothbrush. And the 135 MPH cruise is probably closer to 120-125 in reality.
Good luck. Having an airplane is a blast.
You don't have to have a hangar. A lot of airplanes do fine sitting outside.
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Only seen a 162 once and hated it. Everyone I talked to that had flown it also hated it.
The Piper/Czech sport cruiser is nice, though I have not flown one.
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Mooney
That is all.
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What is the 1200 vs 3000 number in you licensing budget? It might make sense to start learning how to fly before you buy an airplane. Spend a thousand on an instructor and plane just to get familiar with it and be able to make a more informed decision. I'm hazy on the sport pilot/lsa thing, you can't do IMC or night, correct?
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Mooney
That is all.
Still better than dumping money in a boat.
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Before being stuck on disability and having a health record that would forever screw me for getting even a rec permit here in Canada, I looked into all of this as well in the recent past. R22 helo as well.
What is the OP plan regarding the actual aircraft cost? Most of these planes are 100$k plus from what I've seen. Purchase outright, or a shared ownership? A shared ownership if you get along with the other partners can really cut all your costs you've listed by a significant amount IMO. Have you entertained that or other options at all?
I'm unfamiliar with the sport class, what are the requirements for the license in the USA? Our recreation pilot license up here will cost at least 5000$ minimum, and that's if you stay at it diligently and don't need to retrain or re familiarize yourself with past hours. I believe it's 25 or 30 hours and 5 solo here. What are the restrictions, and can you upgrade to a PPL after a certain amount of sport flying experience?
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Besides the cost of the plane itself, what can I expect?
-License (1200 using my plane, 3000 using theirs)
-hangar fee's 1200 a year
-insurance 1500 a year
-gas, be it av or auto 3.50-5.50 a gallon
-maintenance fund (oil changes, tune ups, etc)
I've done the math on this to the best of my knowledge, if I buy a low hour plane (less than 200 hours) I can set back 25-30 per hour of flight (plus fuel) and be prepared when TBO time comes for the engine replacement, that's granted I don't sell the plane at 800 hours or so and get another low hour one.
besides the unexpected, what else? for that matter, what unexpected should be expected?
You need to check with your flight school or CFI if your aircraft can be used for flight instruction? You need to check with your insurance carrier to see if your aircraft is covered for use in flight instruction?
To me, after doing all of the cost analysis you might discover that it is a better option to rent a school aircraft for flight instruction, let their aircraft take all the beatings, save your money to purchase for after you get your rating. Depending on the local weather which will determine how often you train, be as aggressive in training as you can, two times a week.
Ask the flight school how many hours , realistically you are going to end up buying to get your rating. Most flight school rent training aircraft wet (fuel included). Talk to the CFI and ask him for some realistic numbers. Also, make sure that the CFI is on board and understands your goals and requirements and is ready to commit to the training schedule needed to accomplish it. If during your training the CFI cancels more than once or appears not to be ready for your flight lesson, appears to be winging it. Does not present you with all of the necessary lesson plans at your first lesson, change instructors, don't wast your time. If you arrive for a flight lesson and the aircraft scheduled is not available, change flight schools. Remember, things , little things break on aircraft all the time, a lot more often on aircraft being used for training, let the flight school pay the bills to keep the training aircraft in the air. It's cheaper in the long run. I've been teaching people to fly for 35 years. Right now, with a block of cash, going into any flight school gives you some power , use it wisely. Purchasing block time on aircraft is a big cost saver, something you can't do when you own the aircraft. Also buying CFI block time is sometimes available as well. Good luck and enjoy the experience.
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I own a Cirrus, so one of those "real planes" with a parachute. A few things: skip the 162, that plane is an abortion. The LS1 and Czech Sport Cruiser are great choices. That said, there are very real issues so I'll be blunt: you need money, a lot of it. You need enough to at any point in time write a check for $30k.for what reason, any reason. I can shut an an engine tomorrow and I'm out $50k, so there's 1 reason. The numbers on my plane are, let's be frank here: humbling.
Parachute repack: $15k
Engine: $45k
Mx reserve per hour: $180 per hour
Gas: $75 per hour
Hangar: $800 month
Taxes: depends on ur locality
Inspections: $4000
300 hours per year: it's a number
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the rotax 912ULS is 25k plus labor, I was quoted 4k for that
the jabiru 3300 6cy in the LS1 is less
fuel burn on either is 5-6 gallons per hour... if I burn 100LL at 5 a gallon, that's 30 per hour
what is mx reserve?
hangar again was 1200 a year here
tax, don't recall the calculation but it was 1000 a year on a 75k plane
annual was 800
chutes are 7k new for lighter planes
if I bought a low hour plane, can I not realistically make it to 2000 hours before the engine needs to be replaced?
the cirrus is very sharp, but I think your figures and costs are atleast double what I'd be looking at...
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I flew a J3 for more years then I care to remember. My Dad taught me to fly in that plane, when I took over hangers were 30 a month, I flew out of a grass field and loved every second of it. My wife soloed in it, she just wanted to learn enough so that if something happened to me, she could land. Kathy had a red Miata that she would race me to different airshows along the east coast. I used to put the J3 on the line in static displays for vintage aircraft , won a few awards. Point is she would beat me by hours , her traveling the interstate highway system at 80 to 90 miles an hour, me in the J3 at 50 miles an hour. Head winds never seemed to bother her.
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Hah, I enjoyed reading that Traveler. Back in the days when things made sense.
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My Granddaddy told me once,
If it flies, floats or f**ks.....rent it.
Seriously, if you don't even have a PPL yet, go get it...rent lots of different light planes until you find a type you like. Maybe a Skyhawk will suffice...you might end up wanting a decathalon to do advanced aerobatics.
You gotta fly an awful lot to justify airplane ownership over rentals.
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I own a Cirrus, so one of those "real planes" with a parachute. A few things: skip the 162, that plane is an abortion. The LS1 and Czech Sport Cruiser are great choices. That said, there are very real issues so I'll be blunt: you need money, a lot of it. You need enough to at any point in time write a check for $30k.for what reason, any reason. I can shut an an engine tomorrow and I'm out $50k, so there's 1 reason. The numbers on my plane are, let's be frank here: humbling.
Parachute repack: $15k
Engine: $45k
Mx reserve per hour: $180 per hour
Gas: $75 per hour
Hangar: $800 month
Taxes: depends on ur locality
Inspections: $4000
300 hours per year: it's a number
You own a cirrus....and you play this game.....seriously? Why not just go flying?
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This flying thing is just going to be a hobby and a reason to get out and about to do some travelling. I just see ownership being cheaper than renting In the long run. Of course, I haven't grenaded a rotax yet either lol
And wolfala must be out flying it now, I know I would be.
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And heard about this today. Must sell my challenger before plane purchase anyway but I'll hold out till this bill passes because lsa market should fall because of it.
http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2015/February/26/Medical-reform-legislation-introduced-in-House-and-Senate?CMP=ADV%3A1
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Dimebag .. dood .. I can offer a few insights that may be helpful.
Go out to your local FBO, take a demo ride in a plane you fit into ..size *does* matter :)
Demo rides are not much and ask the instructor if you can take the controls once airborne
and/or follow through during takeoff and landing.
All the sim-time in the world wont mean anything if flying just isn't something you can do.
Some people just plain wig out, inner ear imbalance, fear, or completely inop once the wheels leave the tarmac.
Then there's people like most of us .. lot of AH/AW time, strap on a real airplane, and just have a frikkin blast.
The time you have spent in game has already taught you more than most.
You have the sight-picture of what a good approach looks like, how an aircraft controls 'work' more or less,
..what a stall is ..etc. It's a huge leg up in learning a real plane and how to fly it.
Your instructor time will be reduced significantly because of the above.
ie: My first hour in the air we blew through power on stalls, power off stalls, turns around a point, pattern entry, and I landed the plane.
National average to solo when I earned my license was 76 hours.
I solo'd after 7 hours of dual instruction.
Just Do It.
-grin-
It's too much fun not to do.
A wise man once told me that flying will take all of your disposable income, period.
I cannot think of a better way to use disposable income.
Not one.
-GE aka Frank
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This flying thing is just going to be a hobby and a reason to get out and about to do some travelling. I just see ownership being cheaper than renting In the long run. Of course, I haven't grenaded a rotax yet either lol
And wolfala must be out flying it now, I know I would be.
Sounds to me like you had already made up your mind, I'm wondering now why you even started the thread if you were not interested in listing to the advise of more experienced flyers that have already been down the road. Again, if you buy a training aircraft to learn in you had better make sure that your insurance company allows you to use it for flight instruction. insists on seeing the declaration page don't take the agents word on it. Your going to make mistakes, make bad landings, make hard landings, you own it, you bang it, all the repairs come out of your pocket. I've seen lots of aircraft owners do major damage to their aircraft and turn it into a very expensive paper weight. And remember, you can't determine if the damage is minor or major or none at all, you need an A&E to inspect it and sign off on it. Every time you have a hard landing, hope you develop a close personal relationship with your A&E. A&E's are on staff at most FBO's and when an instructor states on the gig sheet hard landing, the A&E does a check out. That's how it works at the FBO I work at. But your never going to have a hard landing right, more than one aircraft owner has clipped a wing tip moving an aircraft in a hanger, but that will never happen to you. CFI's get more per hour to fly in student owned aircraft to cover the extra insurance they have to carry. The majority of pilot dreamers only fly as a hobby, Piper and Cessna continue to sell the myth that these aircraft can be used for transportation. Not if you need to get back to work on Monday morning. Weather determines if they can be used for transportation. And if you think landing fees are high, wait until you get weathered in and want or need to put your dream machine in a hanger at a far off field for two or three days. Plan to sleep in the plane because you won't be able to afford their hanger fee and the rental car and hotel at the same time. If you are using the training aircraft to travel, be sure to include the cost of a car rental at the other end, or all you will see is the airport and if you have a girl friend or wife along, they want to see the sights from the ground, stay in the hotel and have a clean car to use.
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Dimebag .. dood .. I can offer a few insights that may be helpful.
Go out to your local FBO, take a demo ride in a plane you fit into ..size *does* matter :)
Demo rides are not much and ask the instructor if you can take the controls once airborne
and/or follow through during takeoff and landing.
All the sim-time in the world wont mean anything if flying just isn't something you can do.
Some people just plain wig out, inner ear imbalance, fear, or completely inop once the wheels leave the tarmac.
Then there's people like most of us .. lot of AH/AW time, strap on a real airplane, and just have a frikkin blast.
The time you have spent in game has already taught you more than most.
You have the sight-picture of what a good approach looks like, how an aircraft controls 'work' more or less,
..what a stall is ..etc. It's a huge leg up in learning a real plane and how to fly it.
Your instructor time will be reduced significantly because of the above.
ie: My first hour in the air we blew through power on stalls, power off stalls, turns around a point, pattern entry, and I landed the plane.
National average to solo when I earned my license was 76 hours.
I solo'd after 7 hours of dual instruction.
-GE aka Frank
Stop with the miss information, the national average to get the PPL is 76 hours, not solo and most students solo between 6 and 12 hours as an average.
I've been an active CFI for over 35 years.
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Got my private at mininum hours in 4.5 weeks.
The amount of time and cash savings doing it this way is pretty big but your life has to be such that you can devote that kind of "time percentage".
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Yes I had my mind made up based on what I thought to be the facts
The first plane I looked at was a 162 (before I realized they aren't the plane for me). It was 75k. I priced insurance on it based off me having zero experience. I don't recall if I told the agent if I planned on training in it, but he priced me 1500 a year. That's zero deductible for in motion or on ground incidents. That would cover a hard landing or a hangar hit, right??
I know I can't fly a lsa plane in sub-par weather, but I can in a rv7... I'm talking cloudy or rainy days, not a hurricane.
This is why I'm posting here, to learn all I can
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Yes I had my mind made up based on what I thought to be the facts
The first plane I looked at was a 162 (before I realized they aren't the plane for me). It was 75k. I priced insurance on it based off me having zero experience. I don't recall if I told the agent if I planned on training in it, but he priced me 1500 a year. That's zero deductible for in motion or on ground incidents. That would cover a hard landing or a hangar hit, right??nts
I know I can't fly a lsa plane in sub-par weather, but I can in a rv7... I'm talking cloudy or rainy days, not a hurricane.
This is why I'm posting here, to learn all I can
I think you should tell the agent that you plan to do your training in the aircraft for your PPL, so your not going for the sport you plan to get an instrument rating, let the agent know that as well. Is the Airfield manager that is renting you the hanger for 100 a month, is that hanger insured, or is there an additional expense. are you renting an entire hanger and you are the only one in the hanger or is it a shared space? What part of the country, what is the weather like? Boston area, has several hanger caved in due to snow, lots of damaged to aircraft parked inside. Also define on ground incidents, is that your word, or an FAA incident or insurance incident. If someone breaks into your hanger and steals all your radios or nav equipment, is that covered. If the roof falls in on your dream machine is that covered? Or will your insurance company point you to the field operator. A lot of people in the Boston area are finding out the hard way that they have no coverage or that it was an additional rider that they didn't get.
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I know I can't fly a lsa plane in sub-par weather, but I can in a rv7... I'm talking cloudy or rainy days, not a hurricane.
Remember when you were a kid playing outfield in Little League? It was hot and the other team couldn't hit. So you got bored and looked away and thought about ice cream after the game. And THEN…RIGHT EXACTLY THEN….some kid whacks one right out there at you and because you're not paying attention the ball goes right on by to the fence?
Well….that's the way a few clouds or a splash of rain turn into deep toejame when you don't have your instrument rating.
Be careful out there.
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Well….that's the way a few clouds or a splash of rain turn into deep toejame when you don't have your instrument rating.
Even with an instrument rating, I often do not plan to fly myself if I truly Have To Be There at a particular time. There have been a number of occasions when ice, high winds or thunderstorms just made it impractical to fly.
But I don't know how I managed to get anywhere without an instrument rating!
- oldman
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Even with an instrument rating, I often do not plan to fly myself if I truly Have To Be There at a particular time. There have been a number of occasions when ice, high winds or thunderstorms just made it impractical to fly.
But I don't know how I managed to get anywhere without an instrument rating!
- oldman
I've been doing exceptionally well as of late taking passengers to airports they didn't want to go to for weather and operational reasons. Doesn't matter if you're instrument rated or not when some days you just aren't getting in.
In one case the airport iced over and the Mu values went through the floor enroute. Another the weather dropped and resulted in staying in Denver vs continuing into ski country. Last week I couldn't get into Telluride and had to go to Montrose while the Pax were real ultra melons about it too.
In 4 attempts in to Sun Valley I've only seen clouds and wound up in Twin Falls. I feel that it's incorrectly named based on that experience.
Oh and Presidents Day one engine wouldn't start while short of the runway and I got an earful of "WHY ARE YOU LETTING THOSE OTHER AIRPLANES GO AHEAD OF US!!" While we waited for ground to make a hole for us to go back to the FBO in Teterboro.
Time to spare, go by air. Heck I don't even fly the Bonanza at night or if the wx isn't at least close to VFR. I want to see the mountain I'm crashing on when the engine quits is my idea on that I suppose.
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Nice stuff, Mr Puma.
Did you ever get stick time in F86 or F88?
JGroth
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Oh and Presidents Day one engine wouldn't start while short of the runway and I got an earful of "WHY ARE YOU LETTING THOSE OTHER AIRPLANES GO AHEAD OF US!!" While we waited for ground to make a hole for us to go back to the FBO in Teterboro.
That sounds a little like Hell.
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Dime, I have sent you a PM about this.
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If you can find one I would suggest dipping your toes into some form of shared ownership group rather than jumping into the deep end. You'll be able gain insight and experience whether the pain and expense of buying and finding out things the hard way. Flying shouldn't be a solitary experience.
When I was building time for my commercial and instrument ratings. I was a member of a club which was also a shared ownership group. I had access to the wisdom and experience from airline pilots and old Instructors. It's best that the first time you experience some of those scary weather moments you are in the company of someone who has seen it before and lived to tell the tale.
Like Aces High there is nothing like being part of a squad.
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You own a cirrus....and you play this game.....seriously? Why not just go flying?
Flying is overrated! :airplane: Flying cartoon planes is much more fun.
You can do both at the same time. I'm a skydive pilot and sometimes during the climb I'd pull out my smartphone and open up a flight sim app and start playing making sure I get the attention of the skydivers. I tell them the app is actually controlling the aircraft! :joystick:
Always gets their attention. :banana:
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If you can find one I would suggest dipping your toes into some form of shared ownership group rather than jumping into the deep end. You'll be able gain insight and experience whether the pain and expense of buying and finding out things the hard way. Flying shouldn't be a solitary experience.
When I was building time for my commercial and instrument ratings. I was a member of a club which was also a shared ownership group. I had access to the wisdom and experience from airline pilots and old Instructors. It's best that the first time you experience some of those scary weather moments you are in the company of someone who has seen it before and lived to tell the tale.
Like Aces High there is nothing like being part of a squad.
ive been thinking about that more and more. we shall see.
thanks all for the input
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seriously considering jumping in head first into sport flying..
Currently, I have no license or no experience, but I know I would love being able to do it. The opportunities it would open as far as travel is concerned are amazing..
I've been looking at Lightning LS1's, Cessna 162s, Czech SportCruisers, enclosed canopy planes with lots of fancy avionics...
Besides the cost of the plane itself, what can I expect?
-License (1200 using my plane, 3000 using theirs)
-hangar fee's 1200 a year
-insurance 1500 a year
-gas, be it av or auto 3.50-5.50 a gallon
-maintenance fund (oil changes, tune ups, etc)
I've done the math on this to the best of my knowledge, if I buy a low hour plane (less than 200 hours) I can set back 25-30 per hour of flight (plus fuel) and be prepared when TBO time comes for the engine replacement, that's granted I don't sell the plane at 800 hours or so and get another low hour one.
besides the unexpected, what else? for that matter, what unexpected should be expected?
ALways double your expected cost. Then double it again.
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Skip that sport pilot toe jam and go for your private. Seriously. Go for your private.