Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: JunkyII on March 12, 2015, 01:16:43 PM
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So I've been watching my recent films and it seems like this is the area where I lose all my advantage in fights.
I can E merge, angle merge and get set into rolling/vertical scissors and do well but when it goes flat, I lose advantage and it normally ends with me initiating a rolling/vertical scissors where I enter with a severe disadvantage and have to force a overshoot.
My questions. Should instead of flat turning with someone, should I just extend away at the first sight and reset the fight?
and 2. How do I get better a flat turn fights? I try to hold on my best sustain turn but seems like they are doing something that is getting them inside my turn. I find retract my flaps up and gaining speed then setting the flat turn off axis seems to work for me but it isn't a cure all for sure.
Generally I'm just looking for better information on flat turn fights(even though they are boring as hell) it is the area that consistently gets me beat.
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What are you flying and what are the con flying?
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Come to think of it, this is where I have some trouble too, that is unless I've got a huge turn advantage over a con. I'll try to post film.
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Same planes
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You should only be flat turning if you're on the deck and too slow to go vertical. Whoever has flaps out in the same aircraft as in a duel has a turn radius advantage and should go nose to nose for a snap shot. Nose to tail needs a turn rate advantage and if you get too slow in a sustained turn you give the rate advantage to the bandit.
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You should only be flat turning if you're on the deck and too slow to go vertical. Whoever has flaps out in the same aircraft as in a duel has a turn radius advantage and should go nose to nose for a snap shot. Nose to tail needs a turn rate advantage and if you get too slow in a sustained turn you give the rate advantage to the bandit.
Help me out here: nose to nose= turning opposite from the con, nose to tail=turning in the same direction?
Actually last night I got beat by a zeke while flying an I-16. What should I have done in that situation? Nose to nose or nose to tail?
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It's impossible to say what you should have done in a fight I didn't see. :D
Nose to nose you meet head on if equal, the idea is to get their first. Nose to tail is a stalemate if equal so you need to build speed or altitude so you can go vertical.
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So in a flat turn fight just dump all flaps? Too easy, but I feel like I'm still going to lose. Is there any thing else that will get me to make a turn tighter other then just dumping flaps?
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No don't just dump all flaps. If the bandit has no flaps out you may benefit from one or 2 notches or you may need full flaps. It's likely you'll just slow down too much and the bandit will reset the fight to a tail chase with a rate advantage since you're slower now.
There is no general rule that always works. There are just general principles that are always true. The two ways to turn tighter instead of faster are decreasing your turn radius or going vertical.
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Well given their turning capabilities, co-alt and on the deck, which turn should I have used?
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You should have avoided getting there since the Zeke has all the advantages but since you are there you'll use both and hope the other guy screws up.
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Instead of going in a flat circle. Go up and down while you are doing the flat turn. This will give you a tiny notch if alt, then when you go down you'll have a tiny bit E. Often times, if I'm above 800ft I'll attempt to cut in and go into a dive to attempt a loop over the top.
Think of it as a wobbly circle going up and down, on one end you are high, the other side you are low. At the high side, you can roll into a nose a nose dive by cutting inside the circle and then using that E to do a loop or Emil over the top.
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You should have avoided getting there since the Zeke has all the advantages but since you are there you'll use both and hope the other guy screws up.
Well, that explains that then. :) Thanks!
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Junky, different planes require different flap settings for the best sustained turn, but there can be more to it in a fight.
Here's an example that happened to me recently: both f4u1as, just came out of a maneuver that I can't remember, but it ended up with him about my 4 or 5 o'clock low, about the same or maybe he had a little more smash, I tried to go into the f4u's best sustained by putting out 2 notches while he already had all of his out. I would have gotten around on him eventually, but the problem was he had enough position already to spend the rest of his speed on making use of all of his flaps, and he got a shot. What I should have done was dump some more flaps, maybe not all of them because he had to climb to me which bled his speed faster than I would have bled mine, then after I defeated his shot and he was spent I would gradually raise flaps back to 2 notches and then sit and wait.
So some key things to remember are the one with more energy entering the circle will win unless the other guy has enough position already to drag it to a stalemate, and you need to be wary of the other guy spending everything he's got at the right time for a shot.
Also, sometimes doing those yo-yos as Violator suggests can help, but if you're in same planes, same weight, all you're doing is adding drag.
If you get on the losing end of the circle there is a way to escape if you're not too far gone already. Keeping at the edge of the stall (or wherever is best for your plane), raise flaps one by one, then very slowly easy off the pressure. Your mindset should be making the other guy turn as much as possible while you build speed at the same time.
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Well, that explains that then. :) Thanks!
One thing you can try if the Zeke is a bad shot is to go out of phase. For example with the bandit behind you go left and when he follows go right etc. The bandit will turn sooner than you to get a shot and that will move him forward letting you move back. Same thing in the vertical or a combination of the two. But that snap shot you give the bandit is how a lot of cannon birds get their kills.
Most fights are lost by the loser rather than won by the winner. In other words, the guy making the biggest or the most mistakes loses. The notion that you win with a winning move is misleading. If neither side makes a mistake or both sides fail to take advantage of mistakes it can be a long fight. Watch the bandit, think about his intent and watch for mistakes.
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What violator is saying works good for 109's. It all depends on what plane you are flying when performing a flat turn. But violator technique is actually the best way on late war planes. Something like a zeke, brewster, ki43 etc, you would wana pull kind of inside the turn to lock on the opponent 6 since they will most likely be in a late war plane and that can force you to fall back if they end up leveling off. So use turning planes to pull a quick shot before opponent runs away. Or if in you are in a late war plane do what violator said(Inside high yo yo turning).
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If u are in a plane that can outturn your opponent it might be an idea to not turn as much as u could, just enough to stay with him in the turn. this works best if your opponent is a faster plane. For ex if u in a Zeke or Brew against a Pony. That way u could conserve your E and make him bleed his off faster than u. (yes u can do that) And when he is slow enough tighten the turn an move in for the kill.
Most fights are lost by the loser rather than won by the winner. In other words, the guy making the biggest or the most mistakes loses. The notion that you win with a winning move is misleading. If neither side makes a mistake or both sides fail to take advantage of mistakes it can be a long fight. Watch the bandit, think about his intent and watch for mistakes.
If up against a plane like the Zeke its good to know that they are quite hard to handle at stall speed and an average pilot will have trouble to avoid misstakes in a turn fight at stall speed.
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So in a flat turn fight just dump all flaps? Too easy, but I feel like I'm still going to lose. Is there any thing else that will get me to make a turn tighter other then just dumping flaps?
A proper understanding of the energy egg and use of lift vector can accomplish what you are looking for.
YMMV.
:salute
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A proper understanding of the energy egg and use of lift vector can accomplish what you are looking for.
YMMV.
:salute
Regarding that quote, I know you like flying the F4Us. Instead of trying to turn the plane in a circle. The F4Us can actually hover turn, much like a helicoptor. No other plane in AH can do this. It is a combination if using rudder, keeping the nose up, throttle and stall control and using slight aileron in the direction you want to go. By doing this, you can spin around and get inside turners because you are hover turning (skidding around) rather than flying in a circle. You do have to be going super slow of course. Right on the edge of the wing falling over.
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Actually I havent flown an F4U since around 06 or 07!
There were plenty of corsair trainers at the time so I never bothered with them and the only F4U I ever really flew was the birdcage back before we had sepperate arenas.
:salute
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Instead of going in a flat circle. Go up and down while you are doing the flat turn. This will give you a tiny notch if alt, then when you go down you'll have a tiny bit E. Often times, if I'm above 800ft I'll attempt to cut in and go into a dive to attempt a loop over the top.
Think of it as a wobbly circle going up and down, on one end you are high, the other side you are low. At the high side, you can roll into a nose a nose dive by cutting inside the circle and then using that E to do a loop or Emil over the top.
That's using the energy egg.
Regarding that quote, I know you like flying the F4Us. Instead of trying to turn the plane in a circle. The F4Us can actually hover turn, much like a helicoptor. No other plane in AH can do this. It is a combination if using rudder, keeping the nose up, throttle and stall control and using slight aileron in the direction you want to go. By doing this, you can spin around and get inside turners because you are hover turning (skidding around) rather than flying in a circle. You do have to be going super slow of course. Right on the edge of the wing falling over.
You're saying at the top of the egg you can turn tighter and set your lift vector to bring your nose up on the bandit.
I'd add that other aircraft can also do it.
Just pointing that out for people who didn't make the connection. :D
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FLS, I might just need to find you in the TA one night and discuss this....I learn better from seeing it :aok
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Sounds good. PM me to set up a time when you're ready.
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Actually I havent flown an F4U since around 06 or 07!
There were plenty of corsair trainers at the time so I never bothered with them and the only F4U I ever really flew was the birdcage back before we had sepperate arenas.
:salute
Ahh lol. I meant to imply junky when I said "you". I need to stop doing that. I was talking about the quote you had posted about what junky said about turning sharper.
The trick is a hovering rudder flat stall turn. The size of the wings and the rudder and flaps make this plane almost float in the air. So its not like you are turning in a circle with your ailerons and elevator. You are turning flat in the air with your stall right on the edge in the direction you are spinning. Basically a controlled flat spin in order to stay in the middle of the circle turn and attempting to get a shot before you have to get your nose over.
FLS. You could maybe try it in some other planes, but it's not going to be like what the F4U can do simply because of the structure of the aircraft and how it can handle stalls.
RudEboi, that trick I mentioned earlier also works quite well in the P47s as well.
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There's only three things to consider in a flat nose to tail turn fight; flaps or not, how hard to pull the stick and closure rate.
In a same plane match-up the guy who can pull deepest into the stall without wobbling his plane is likely going to win, but, you may not want to depending on closure. Reading where the other guy is in the turn will dictate the use of flaps and whether you pull for lead or lag. Lead decreases turn radius but increases turn rate while lag increases radius but decreases rate. The art of the flat turn is reading and responding to closure correctly and making the right decisions regarding rate and radius. I agree that even a slight amount of vertical movement can be beneficial.
Once you're in a flat nose to tail turn fight you'd better win as there's no easy way out without first turning it into a flat nose to nose turn fight.
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There's only three things to consider in a flat nose to tail turn fight; flaps or not, how hard to pull the stick and closure rate.
In a same plane match-up the guy who can pull deepest into the stall without wobbling his plane is likely going to win, but, you may not want to depending on closure. Reading where the other guy is in the turn will dictate the use of flaps and whether you pull for lead or lag. Lead decreases turn radius but increases turn rate while lag increases radius but decreases rate. The art of the flat turn is reading and responding to closure correctly and making the right decisions regarding rate and radius. I agree that even a slight amount of vertical movement can be beneficial.
Once you're in a flat nose to tail turn fight you'd better win as there's no easy way out without first turning it into a flat nose to nose turn fight.
This is not correct. You imply that there is no low speed limit to best sustained turn rate. When you get too slow to pull 2.5 - 3g, depending on which aircraft you're flying, turn rate will decrease.
Lead pursuit does not decrease turn radius or increase turn rate. Turn radius and rate are a function of speed and load factor regardless of pursuit curve.
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Violator I know the move you are talking about. I do it Sometimes when i get into trouble. It takes some time getting use to the weird gravitational lift but once you get use to it its awesome.
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Ahh lol. I meant to imply junky when I said "you". I need to stop doing that. I was talking about the quote you had posted about what junky said about turning sharper.
The trick is a hovering rudder flat stall turn. The size of the wings and the rudder and flaps make this plane almost float in the air. So its not like you are turning in a circle with your ailerons and elevator. You are turning flat in the air with your stall right on the edge in the direction you are spinning. Basically a controlled flat spin in order to stay in the middle of the circle turn and attempting to get a shot before you have to get your nose over.
FLS. You could maybe try it in some other planes, but it's not going to be like what the F4U can do simply because of the structure of the aircraft and how it can handle stalls.
RudEboi, that trick I mentioned earlier also works quite well in the P47s as well.
Hogs are easy mode, I only fly them when I'm perk farming in a -1
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-1 aint easy mode :old:
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-1 aint easy mode :old:
It's not hard
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You are easy Junky :D
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Hogs are easy mode, I only fly them when I'm perk farming in a -1
Pilot quality aside, the difficulty of any aircraft is determined by it's characteristics vs the opposing aircraft.
It takes some time getting use to the weird gravitational lift but once you get use to it its awesome.
Gravitational lift requires you to be inverted. You may be thinking of losing yaw stability and rotating from torque.
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Maybe you are right FLS.
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This is not correct. You imply that there is no low speed limit to best sustained turn rate. When you get too slow to pull 2.5 - 3g, depending on which aircraft you're flying, turn rate will decrease.
Lead pursuit does not decrease turn radius or increase turn rate. Turn radius and rate are a function of speed and load factor regardless of pursuit curve.
And this is why I no longer contribute to this forum.
If I can turn inside you I'm going to kill you. If I can't do that I'm going to try to catch you from behind. Funny how doing it wrong has worked so well for 19 years.
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And this is why I no longer contribute to this forum.
If I can turn inside you I'm going to kill you. If I can't do that I'm going to try to catch you from behind. Funny how doing it wrong has worked so well for 19 years.
I understand that you shared your perceptions but it wasn't an accurate description of turning. If you pull harder for lead pursuit you are pulling more g, if you pull less for lag pursuit you are pulling less g. The difference in turn rate and radius is due to the combination of speed and g not the chosen pursuit curve.
You have the opportunity to learn something but it's up to you what you do with it.
What happens to turn rate and radius when you're slower than 150mph?
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8204/hwjoxha29hx328h6g.jpg) (https://www.mediafire.com/view/?hwjoxha29hx328h)
You can see that if you ride the stall, once you get under 150mph your radius increases and turn rate decreases.
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Interesting how my post has been completely ignored.
I believe Bald may be talking about the same thing I was, determining whether or not you should dump the rest of your flaps for a temporary increase in rate vrs keeping best sustained configuration.
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Interesting how my post has been completely ignored.
I believe Bald may be talking about the same thing I was, determining whether or not you should dump the rest of your flaps for a temporary increase in rate vrs keeping best sustained configuration.
Mar,
If you drop flaps,all the way,you will decrease RADIUS not rate,you best turn RATE is at corner speed,not at sustained speed.
:salute :salute
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You are easy Junky :D
I do like fat chicks
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Interesting how my post has been completely ignored.
Topic was low E flat turn fight. Your suggestion was to give the opponent a turn advantage by raising flaps and reducing AOA. Other people advised how to use an E advantage the OP didn't have. BaldEagl posted his misunderstanding of turning.
I'm always happy to answer questions if there's anything you don't understand.
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Mar,
If you drop flaps,all the way,you will decrease RADIUS not rate,you best turn RATE is at corner speed,not at sustained speed.
:salute :salute
If for example, in the f4u1a, you're at 2 notches doing best sustained, dumping the rest of your flaps will temporarily increase your rate until your speed runs out. This can be useful if you are close enough to get a shot after doing so, but will leave you in a bad position if you don't get the kill.
Topic was low E flat turn fight. Your suggestion was to give the opponent a turn advantage by raising flaps and reducing AOA. Other people advised how to use an E advantage the OP didn't have. BaldEagl posted his misunderstanding of turning.
I'm always happy to answer questions if there's anything you don't understand.
The part in bold was at the very end of my post, and it was for ESCAPING the circle.
He did not state his E state. As I said in my example, if you start with maximum sustained speed with full flaps out in the f4u, you should raise flaps one at a time (or even all at once depending) up to 2 notches down. Your speed will increase as you do this, up to the maximum sustained turn rate configuration once you reach 2 notches. However, this is only possible if o the ther guy is not too close to getting a shot already. If he is far enough behind in the turn, raise flaps all at once up to 2 notches down, your rate will temporarily suffer until you get up to speed, but once you do all you have to do is wait. Unless of course the other guy starts doing something else, then you should react accordingly.
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Mar,
Did you look at FLS's chart? You will decrease the turn radius,not increase the rate if you drop flaps.
Now that might get your nose around but you turn rate isnt increased,the best turn rate is at corner speed and you have a smaller turn radius at sustained speed.
YMMV.
:salute
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If the OP is stuck in a flat turn then you know his E state.
If you have full flaps at max AOA and raise them one notch you will have to ease your pull to avoid stalling and your turn radius increases while your rate decreases. After you accelerate you can increase AOA again.
You mentioned losing a flat turn fight, now the bandit is far enough behind that you can wait to accelerate.
If you are stuck in a flat turn you cannot escape by easing your pull and raising flaps one notch at a time. You're just giving the bandit angles for a shot.
What is max sustained speed with full flaps? That would be minimum sustained speed unless you mean best sustained turn g and speed clean then drop flaps for instantaneous turn rate.
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I'm fed up with arguing about everything that I've seen and done first hand.
If you are stuck in a flat turn you cannot escape by easing your pull and raising flaps one notch at a time. You're just giving the bandit angles for a shot.
I have escaped circle jerks with the only shot the bandit getting being at 800 yards and increasing. Perhaps you would like me to show you how to do it?
What is max sustained speed with full flaps? That would be minimum sustained speed unless you mean best sustained turn g and speed clean then drop flaps for instantaneous turn rate.
I didn't think I would have to spell out the fact that I was talking about a turn with full flaps out on the edge of the stall horn, which is most efficient (edge of stall horn) for the F4us, unlike for example the 109s which benefit from pulling into the buffet.
If you have full flaps at max AOA and raise them one notch you will have to ease your pull to avoid stalling and your turn radius increases while your rate decreases. After you accelerate you can increase AOA again.
Again, edge of stall horn, wherever that may be. I said rate suffers until you're up to speed.
Did you look at FLS's chart? You will decrease the turn radius,not increase the rate if you drop flaps.
Now that might get your nose around but you turn rate isnt increased,the best turn rate is at corner speed and you have a smaller turn radius at sustained speed.
Again, spending excess speed on flaps will temporarily increase turn rate until you're down to the best speed the plane can manage at full flaps on edge of stall horn.
If I'm wrong, then explain how I've been killed by the same plane with same weight while I'm settled into best rate sustained turn.
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I agree with you MAR. What the numbers, charts, and "experts" say here doesn't always match up with what CAN be done in the game. Practice and pushing the "planes" to and past the limits teaches you what can be done far better than reading and studying charts.
We are not playing in a real world, its a virtual one and the rules are not always the same.
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The nice thing about hypothetical situations is that they will demonstrate anything you want them to.
If you don't want to discuss ACM consider that nobody dragged you into the thread and forced you to. It seemed you complained about the lack of response. Now you're complaining about the response.
Baldeagl gets a clue why he usually gets an early exit from his dueling ladder and you see the thanks I get. :D
Anyone posting nonsense like fugi's is going to get corrected. If that's a problem then don't post nonsense.
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What nonsense have I posted then? Explain how everything I've said is incorrect.
I agree with you MAR. What the numbers, charts, and "experts" say here doesn't always match up with what CAN be done in the game. Practice and pushing the "planes" to and past the limits teaches you what can be done far better than reading and studying charts.
We are not playing in a real world, its a virtual one and the rules are not always the same.
I'll tell you what Fugi, dumping remaining flaps to temporarily increase turn rate can be charted too. The chart in question though does not show anything about starting from 2 notches at 150mph, to dumping out 5 notches and the rates that occour between 150 to whatever the 5 notch at edge of stallhorn best sustained speed is.
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What nonsense have I posted then? Explain how everything I've said is incorrect.
What part of "nonsense like fugi's" do you think refers to you?
This part was for you: The nice thing about hypothetical situations is that they will demonstrate anything you want them to.
If you don't want to discuss ACM consider that nobody dragged you into the thread and forced you to.
It seemed you complained about the lack of response. Now you're complaining about the response.
So now you're fed up and the conversation is over.
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What part of "nonsense like fugi's" do you think refers to you?
I assumed you were refering to your your "corrections" to my posts.
is going to get corrected.
The nice thing about hypothetical situations is that they will demonstrate anything you want them to.
They were not hypothetical, they happened, and will continue to happen until the end of time.
If you don't want to discuss ACM
What part of my post is not ACM? I am describing maneuvers to use to the effect of not getting shot and/or getting a shot, am I not?
What part of my posts will not help with understanding what can happen in a fight?
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Lead pursuit does not decrease turn radius or increase turn rate.
It absolutely does in an equal nose to tail chase.
If two planes are flying the exact same circle and one pulls into the circle for lead he has to have decreased his turn radius, otherwise he couldn't pull lead. Likewise if the same pilot eases back on his stick he increases radius and gains speed. You simply can't argue this.
You need geometry lessons.
Baldeagl gets a clue why he usually gets an early exit from his dueling ladder and you see the thanks I get. :D
And BTW you're an arrogant prettythanghole.
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If two aircraft are making their max turn, which is normal when they want to avoid getting shot, neither one is able to pull lead without stalling. Go ahead and argue that.
I'm not arrogant, I'm well informed and helpful. I don't get frustrated by disagreement and I find it easy to avoid petty insults.
If you study the EM diagram I posted you'll learn something important that can help you.
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If two aircraft are making their max turn, which is normal when they want to avoid getting shot, neither one is able to pull lead without stalling. Go ahead and argue that.
You got it.
If for example, in the f4u1a, you're at 2 notches doing best sustained, dumping the rest of your flaps will temporarily increase your rate until your speed runs out. This can be useful if you are close enough to get a shot after doing so, but will leave you in a bad position if you don't get the kill.
There are other planes where what you say is true however, like the 109's and the KI-84 which do best sustained rate with full flaps at about the very edge of stalling a wing.
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If two aircraft are making their max turn, which is normal when they want to avoid getting shot, neither one is able to pull lead without stalling. Go ahead and argue that.
Which is exactly what I said to begin with. The guy who can pull closest to that edge without stalling wins.
I don't get frustrated by disagreement and I find it easy to avoid petty insults.
No, you just take cheap shots.
If you study the EM diagram I posted you'll learn something important that can help you.
And another cheap shot. You are beyond being an arrogant amazinhunk...
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Which is exactly what I said to begin with. The guy who can pull closest to that edge without stalling wins.
Yes, well, it does depend on the situation and plane type as I have demonstrated, but it does work well as a general rule to start out with.
That diagram is useful for learning the F4u-1's maximum sustained and instantaneous G, rate, and radius at various speeds with no flaps down. Badboy made another diagram that showed the best sustained rate (and the radius that came with it) for each of the flap settings for the F4u, which showed 2 notches made the best rate, and is what I keep basing the 2 notches for f4u is best on.
However, neither of them can demonstrate what happens while you dump all of the flaps and burn your speed down until you get to the best speed the F4u can generate at the best rate turn for the full flap setting.
Edit: I should have thought to describe "dump all of the flaps and burn your speed down until you get to the best speed" as an instantaneous turn. Here is a post by Badboy on flaps and what they do to rates, take very special note of the third paragraph under his a6m chart:
Some players make good use of flaps, others don't. For the most part, we learn how to employ flaps from experience, but in some cases, even after significant experience it is still all too easy to get it wrong. One reason for this is the difficulty getting the quality experience in the first place and also the difficulty getting good information.
Before I give you my take on this I need to make some general comments on the use of flaps in air combat. It is fairly commonly known that using flaps changes the camber of the wing and that this changes both the lift and drag. Most players are aware that the lift increases, and the drag also increases, but what is important is the ratio between the increase in lift and drag and that ratio is known as the aerodynamic efficiency. Depending on the type of flaps and how much they are deflected, the influence of the flaps on the profile and induced drag in proportion to the lift can result in either an increase or decrease in the resulting aerodynamic efficiency of the wing. What that means is that the use of flaps can be good or bad in terms of the price you have to pay for the increase in lift.
What does that mean in terms of air combat? During an engagement, the differences in lift and drag are apparent by the influence on the way our aircraft can turn. Employing flaps generally results in higher instantaneous turn rates, and a smaller turn radius. However, in the case of a sustained turn, while the turn radius is always reduced, the sustained turn rate may either increase or decrease.
In cases where a particular flap deflection results in a reduction in turn radius, and an increase in the sustained turn rate, it is very important to identify that, because it can be highly desirable to fly in that configuration. However, it is more common for a reduction in turn radius to be accompanied by a reduction in the sustained turn rate. In those cases it is essential to know when you need to minimise your turn radius, or when it is more important to maximise your sustained turn rate.
The answer is this… Generally, (I need to speak in general terms because there are exceptions and I will come to that later) it is better to minimise your turn radius in a one circle fight (nose to nose turns) and to maximise your turn rate in a two circle fight (nose to tail). This is a very important point, it is so important that many players lose fights because they fail to understand the subtleties of it.
In order to make best use of the differences in radius and rate caused by the use of flaps, it is necessary to know how your turn radius and turn rate are influenced by the use of flaps in a sustained turn. That information is conveyed most readily by means of a diagram showing the turn circle for a fixed time. That way the turn radii can be seen relative to each other, and because the circles are drawn for a fixed time, the differences in sustained turn rates will be apparent because some lines will extend farther around the circle than others. You can see this by inspecting the following diagram.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/TurnF4U1D.gif)
Here you can see that the F4U1D benefits from a tighter turn radius and an increased sustained turn rate when flaps are employed. You will notice that the best sustained turn rate occurs when the flaps are deflected by two notches. That's the best place to be in nose to tail fight, because the way to win that kind of fight is simply to win the turn rate war. You need to gain angles on your opponent until you move around the circle onto his tail. In order to do that you need to know how to maximise your sustained turn rate. The diagram above shows you exactly how to do that.
You can also see that if you deflect the flaps on the F4U1D beyond two notches, you pay for it with a reducing sustained turn rate. Notice also that once you get to four notches, the fifth and final notch gives you a slightly tighter radius with an insignificantly small reduction in rate. So for this particular aircraft, once you enter a turn fight, you should use only two notches of flaps as long as you are turning nose to tail to optimise your rate, and if the fight goes nose to nose, such as in a scissors, where you need to reduce speed and minimise your turn radius, use full flaps.
Lastly, if the situation changes don't be afraid to work the flaps. If the fight is nose to nose and you employ full flaps as appropriate in that case, but the situation changes to one where you find your self chasing the bandits tail, don't be afraid to reduce your flap deflection in order to improve your turn rate, and thus out turn your opponent.
Having said that, few things in life are cut and dry, and even that wisdom isn't always safe. It all depends on the aircraft. For example, take a look at the diagram for the A6M2 shown below:
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/ZekeR1.gif)
You will see that this case is very different from the previous one. Instead of the flaps producing an increase in the sustained turn rate as it did in with the F4U1D, you now notice that as the flaps are deflected the turn radius tightens up as expected, but now the sustained turn rate drops also. You can see that while there is a significant drop in sustained turn rate for the first and second notch of flap deflection, the second, third and fourth positions all have very similar turn rates.
The conclusion you can draw from this is that for this aircraft, if you want to maximise your turn rate, don't use your flaps at all. There is no sweet spot as there was with the F4U1D. Also, if you feel the need to deflect the flaps by two notches, you might as well go all the way, because you will get a tighter turn radius and your sustained turn rate won't diminish any farther than it already has. However, in this case the turn radii are small and the reduction in radius at full flaps is significant and that introduces another complication.
Most of us learn fairly quickly that the right thing to do in a nose to tail turn would be to optimise turn rate, however because the circles are so small in this example, there is a danger that a player who drops full flaps may be able to pull his nose inside his opponent's turn for a shot across the circle. If the shot succeeds, the energy sacrificed will be worthwhile, but if you don't make the shot, at worst it may very quickly prove fatal, or at best the energy lost in the attempt will haunt you throughout the remainder of the fight. That's why some players will deliberately offer the prospect of a shot in the hope that their opponent will go full flaps and give up all their energy for a first shot opportunity.
On the other hand, getting slow quickly and using full flaps is a strategy that can be an effective way to get quick kills if you always take the fight one circle, in a scissors type engagement, in which case full flaps is almost always the right thing to do. It can be so effective against weaker players that it is easy to get locked into that way of fighting. The catch is that a good player can force the fight back to a nose to tail turn, and if they are good at optimising aircraft performance in that that situation, and if they have a proper understanding of the relationship between angles and energy, the fight can become very difficult for the player stuck at full flaps with a one circle fixation. The longer such a player allows themselves to remain in that situation, the more they continue to lose angles and energy until they become entirely defensive.
The bottom line is that good players develop a feel for when and how to use flaps so that they can maximise aircraft performance for the situation they are in. They simply know where the sweet spot is for their particular ride. It takes hundreds of hours of top quality fighting to develop the skills needed to excel in this, so my advice to anyone who hasn't figured it out yet is this:
Forget about trying to survive, speed is life, but you won't learn as much that way. Get stuck in at every opportunity, seek out tough fights because quality experience produces accelerated learning and adrenaline packed fun! That is the best way to make rapid progress, because as other players appreciate your willingness to engage and have fun, the better ones will be equally willing to help, its a win win situation.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Which is exactly what I said to begin with. The guy who can pull closest to that edge without stalling wins.
You ignore my point. You can ride the stall to a decrease in rate and an increase in radius. That's how you lose. That was my point all along and you haven't addressed it. Lead pursuit is simply pointing in front of the bandit. You could be flying straight in lead pursuit. Your description was inaccurate and the implication that there is no speed limit to turn performance is false.
You persist in rudeness. We're done.
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What u must remember is that every flap setting and every weight configuration has its own chart. Each plane has an almost unlimited numbers of charts from 100% fuel and ords to almost 0% fuel and no ammo.
2 planes are not equal because its the same model, if one have 25% fuel and the other 75% it could be the difference between winning and loosing.
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What nonsense have I posted then? Explain how everything I've said is incorrect.
I'll tell you what Fugi, dumping remaining flaps to temporarily increase turn rate can be charted too. The chart in question though does not show anything about starting from 2 notches at 150mph, to dumping out 5 notches and the rates that occour between 150 to whatever the 5 notch at edge of stallhorn best sustained speed is.
Oh I agree. The problem with FLS is that there is only one way for everything. His hard facts is all that matters. The problem is he doesn't have ALL the facts. He doesn't take into account facts that apply in game that have nothing to do with real world. He doesn't take into account that not everyone has the same knowledge/skill set in this game and that factors into who can out turn who as well.
I gave up reading what he writes some time ago. It seems Bald is finding his arrogance to being detrimental to the discussion as well. I never liked a teacher that would brow beat info into you and expect that was enough. Arrogance is just not a good trait for an instructor.
My point still is, read all you want, but getting in there down and dirty is the only way your are going to learn what to do in those situations.
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Fugi giving people advice when you don't know what you're talking about is arrogant. You insult Hitech when you say the aerodynamic model has nothing to do with the real world. When I ask you to list these facts you claim I don't have you don't seem to be able to come up with any. You told me to watch a video, that I appear in, to learn something that you can't name or describe except to claim people should exceed limits and fly 110%. I'm confident most people reading that recognize BS when they see it.
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FLS doesn't seem arrogant at all Fugi
I think he just tries to stop miss information so people don't get confused :D
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I will clear something up,turn rate is measured in degrees per second,turn radius is measured in feet,yards,etc.
The use of flaps wont increase turn rate they will however decrease the turn radius.... You can claim to do whatever you want but you cant change simple facts and physics.
:salute
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Mar is correct. Sometimes flaps increase rate while reducing radius. It depends on the aircraft. We can see that on another of Badboy's very helpful EM diagrams.
However you'll notice that in this example, the P-38, you only have about a 10 mph speed band where each flap setting is worth the drag for a rate increase. The speed difference for best sustained turn is first notch 5 mph then 10 mph. Most players will likely miss the speeds and not increase their turn rate so Morf you're correct in practice. :D
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6a26/6g5hqha2oqm5h5d6g.jpg) (https://www.mediafire.com/view/?6g5hqha2oqm5h5d)
For those not used to reading these charts, it shows that a P-38L at sea level with 25% fuel and WEP will give it's best sustained turn rate and minimum radius with 3 notches flaps with is presumably the 50% extension maneuvering setting. An increase in flap extension would reduce the radius but add enough drag that the rate would degrade.
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:rofl
:salute
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Yes indeed thank you for that FLS, however I believe Morf is referring to the instantaneous turn that happens between flap settings.
As we can see in that 38 chart, at 3 notches its best sustained rate is 21 dps at 162ish mph. But if we were to start at its best sustained rate with no flaps at 190 mph and drop those three notches (read: add lift) from there, the turn rate will go above 21dps until the drag and thrust equalize again at 162 mph. If we were to drop the rest of the flaps from there, the dps would breifly increase again until the extra drag causes us to lose enough speed to cancel the extra lift created.
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I'm sure you know that flaps don't actually add lift. Flaps change the shape of the inner wing and increase the coefficient of lift, lowering the stall speed. Lift remains the product of AOA and speed. Since instantaneous turn rate lasts for an instant in flat turns it's not generally useful. If you already almost have a shot it can let you pull lead for the shot but in that case you can probably spare the angles to lag and build speed and then pull more g clean. The difference being the speed you end up with after the shot. If it's a duel it doesn't matter which way you go unless you miss the shot but in the arena you may want the higher speed.
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increase the coefficient of lift
Close enough. :lol
At last we are in agreement. :old:
Not generally useful sure, but you must at least be wary of it as I have learned the hard way. You may also want to use it in the MA if you're confident with your gunnery and need to deal with the guy quickly before more come, but as you say as well, speed is life.
:salute
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Instead of going in a flat circle. Go up and down while you are doing the flat turn. This will give you a tiny notch if alt, then when you go down you'll have a tiny bit E. Often times, if I'm above 800ft I'll attempt to cut in and go into a dive to attempt a loop over the top.
Think of it as a wobbly circle going up and down, on one end you are high, the other side you are low. At the high side, you can roll into a nose a nose dive by cutting inside the circle and then using that E to do a loop or Emil over the top.
What Violator said above or try a sustained slight climb while holding that tight turn.