Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Randy1 on March 29, 2015, 01:00:04 PM
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Don't move controls too rapidly error is back in my game again after a year's hiatus. It is happening once to twice per session. Lost several planes in close to the ground fights.
Looking at the raw input in the "Advanced" controls on the clipboard I see a tiny jitter in the rudder on the CH pedals. Could that be it?
I have hand trembles. Could that be it?
Dog gone if i can figure out why AH has this feature. It sure hasn't stopped the porposeing planes or plane jiggles.
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Both reasons could be it. If the raw input isn't steady, there's some spiking in the pots unless you live in a place where minor earthquakes (or heavy traffic) makes your house shake constantly. Cleaning them might help. If the symptoms still occur after cleaning and calibrating (both in Windows and in game), add some dead band. The less the better because it will add a zone of no action in the middle and it'd be a nuisance both to learn having it and again learning out of it after fixing or replacing the controller.
The reason for the entire "don't move your controls too rapidly" is to add immersion by preventing players from using impossible stick moves. In flight the flying surfaces tend to keep flat so you'd need some muscles to actually move the controllers to move the rudder or flaps. Remember, the warbirds didn't have hydraulics to assist the pilot. As an example no human can pull back the stick of a compressing 109. Since very few are using Force Feedback sticks the "don't move" system has to suffice and IMO it does its job quite well.
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Thanks Bizman for the reply. My guess is a dirty pot on the rudder. I do use the rudders quite a bit.
On rudder I have not used scaling so I added that to see if that skirts the problem. I will post results latter. If that fails then I will pull the pedals apart and clean.
It would seem like they would use the modeling technique they use on the P-38J ailerons instead of the error message.
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it could be you are just trying harder for that kill.....or to avoid getting killed....I got that message a couple times when I first got back.....
I highly doubt it is small spiking in the stick or rudder peddles that cause it(I could be wrong just highly doubt it)
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If it only happens when fighting it's likely pilot error.
Try getting the message on purpose for each axis, pitch, roll, and yaw, to see just what it takes to trigger the lock.
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I would start with the cleaning because dead band and damping only hide the problem instead of removing the cause. Even worse, the dirt inside the pots works as an abrasive, causing them wear out prematurely. CH pedals aren't too difficult to service, just take care that you get the thin wires in their slots so that they won't twist or get too tight.
Scaling is somewhat related to both dead band and damping, but it won't fix the raw input jitter. Dead band is made for that, but it should be used only after everything else has been tried, mostly with poor quality or worn out controllers. Damping is like using rubber bands instead of steel wires and syrup instead of gear oil. Both are decreasing accuracy. Scaling on the other hand doesn't affect raw input accuracy at all, it determines the relation between your controller input and the flying surfaces. Some like it linear, some exponential. Some people like the latter set in a curve to let them use large hand/foot movements in the center area for better accuracy. Others may like the idea that a certain amount of movement correlates with the actual movement of the rudder or ailerons.
So, you may want to test whether some dead band would kill the raw input jitter, and if it does, clean the pots and test again without dead band to see if that did the trick.
Ink is probably correct in suggesting that small spiking hardly would cause the message. And FLS has a good suggestion for pinpointing the actual controller you're having most problems with. Hand trembles can get worse in the heat of a fight without you even noticing it. There's techniques and exercises for that, similar to those taught to birth-giving mothers for example. Breath, brother, breath... :evil:
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Thanks Bizman for the reply. My guess is a dirty pot on the rudder. I do use the rudders quite a bit.
On rudder I have not used scaling so I added that to see if that skirts the problem. I will post results latter. If that fails then I will pull the pedals apart and clean.
It would seem like they would use the modeling technique they use on the P-38J ailerons instead of the error message.
Don't adjust the scaling unless your looking to adjust how fast an input is applied to the control. Adjust the dead band to clean up a signal on a controller. Just bump it up a bit, half the "slider handle" and see if the signal settles down. The raw will bounce, but the other should stay steady.
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CH pedals aren't too difficult to service, just take care that you get the thin wires in their slots so that they won't twist or get too tight.
...er...are there instructions, somewhere, on how to do this...?
- oldman
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Thanks to everyone for their replies. I always get good advice.
I tried damping and could not dampen out the jitter.
I feel sure now it is the rudder pot. I was slipping the P-38n in for landing and the rudder hung to the right for a second or so.
I have never happen on defensive avoidance maneuvers. It most often happens in near stall pursuit when I kick the rudder in with full stick to pull the nose around.
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@Oldman: Remove the screws in the bottom. There may be a couple hidden under rubber pads, so check those if the bottom doesn't come loose. I've only done that once, years ago on a friend's equipment so I can't check. But I did it without any instructions and I'm not an engineer. Just take care of some precautions like a steady working surface, good lighting and your favourite relaxant. Take your time while taking it apart, a camera might be handy in documenting how things looked like before digging deeper. There's small clamps conducting the wires, make note where they are and ensure the cables don't get tight when pushing the pedals to their extents.
@Randy: While looking for instructions regarding Oldman's question I stumbled upon a thread where the poster had found out that the the mechanic parts of the pedals can get sticky. While cleaning your pots take a look at the plastic parts, too. Clean them and add some plastic friendly lubricant.
The reason I opened my friend's pedals was because the plastic sliding parts had become sticky from spilled beverage. Sugar is great for gluing!
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@Oldman: Remove the screws in the bottom.
Thanks, Bizman!
- oldman
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Thanks, Bizman!
- oldman
Always a pleasure to say the obvious :D
Wasn't trying to underestimate your technical skills, I'm just trying to be as exact as possible to avoid misunderstandings due to English not being my native tongue.
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...er...are there instructions, somewhere, on how to do this...?
- oldman
The googles is ma fri-end http://www.svaf.net/index.php/forum/5-tech-talk/9479-assembly-of-the-ch-pedals-pictures (http://www.svaf.net/index.php/forum/5-tech-talk/9479-assembly-of-the-ch-pedals-pictures)
Also you can register on http://www.ch-hangar.com (http://www.ch-hangar.com) forum, I just downloaded a step by step guide with pics even.
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The googles is ma fri-end http://www.svaf.net/index.php/forum/5-tech-talk/9479-assembly-of-the-ch-pedals-pictures (http://www.svaf.net/index.php/forum/5-tech-talk/9479-assembly-of-the-ch-pedals-pictures)
Also you can register on http://www.ch-hangar.com (http://www.ch-hangar.com) forum, I just downloaded a step by step guide with pics even.
More good information, thanks!
- oldman
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More good information, thanks!
- oldman
Welcome.
I downloaded the guide, it looks very easy. The trick apparently is taking the pedals (brakes) apart first, then the base.
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Don't stick stir....that will fix the problem
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Still don't understand how people get this message all the time man :airplane:.
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Still don't understand how people get this message all the time man :airplane:.
It's easy. I used to get them quite a lot. Now it's very rare, less than once a year. The reason in my case was lack of experience. The games I had played before didn't rely on real world dynamics, overdriven reactions played a major role. It took some time to learn not to crank the stick the maximum. Take the early sports games as an opposite, where your sprinter ran at the speed you beat your joystick from one end to another.
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Don't stick stir....that will fix the problem
I have never had it happen while being pursued . . . Never!
Still don't understand how people get this message all the time man :airplane:.
Sooner or latter man it will happen to you.
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Generally of you aren't cranking away on the stick it won't happen unless there's something going on mechanically /electronically with the stick itself. A pot or pots may be spiking in a certain position. My experience having had this happen periodically over the years is when I get that the first time it's time to tear the stick down and do some general maintenance. Usually I can get away with cleaning the pots but eventually it's time for new ones and voila I'm good for another 20k miles.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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Getting that error message is a good indicator that your controls aren't calibrated correctly or it's going south on you.
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Another stupid thing with the CH sticks. The pots are connected to the wiring harness by little spade connectors. They get loose and will make whacky things happen. Give them a snug up with a needle nose.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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Only time this happens to me is when im in bombers. I have learned not to extend away from the target very far by using flaps while bombing. This shortens the time to shutdown a base by a matter of minutes even in B29's. The down side is over compensating if my turn doesnt line up on the target. Normally nowadays i only have 20-30 seconds out of my turn to re-calibrate and drop again. There are times when i have to play with the stock back and forth to line it up from F3 mode to F6. If i do it too much it locks up my stick and i get the warning. Even worse if all that is happening and im trying to defend my buffs against air cons.
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I finally had a chance to teardown the pedals yesterday using the guide Scca found. The connections to the pots were tightened and pots cleaned. It did fix a nagging toe brake problem but the rudder still shimmers when viewing the raw data in the W7 calibration or the advanced section in AH albeit not as much. Did not get the error message last night.
I am beginning to believe it is the USB connector having tried powered USB ports and sole connection to the mother board USB without any other device attached to any USB port. Getting odd results when I change connections.
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It is not unusual to get different results when changing USB ports.
Remember this. No matter how many USB ports are available on your computer, the chances are, there are only two hubs supporting all those ports. It is quite easy to overload one hub and not even touch the other hub.
I wish computer manufacturers would identify the hubs for each port (i.e. Port/Hub: 1/1, 2/1, 3/2, 4/2...)
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It is not unusual to get different results when changing USB ports.
I will do some experimenting with different ports again today if time permits.
Thanks Skuzzy and to all those that submitted replies. Always good help here on the forum.
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Go to Device Manager, Universal Serial Bus Controllers. Double click each USB Root Hub to get their Properties windows open. On the Power tab you'll find the Total Power Available and a box titled Attached Devices showing how much each device is using. Clicking a device will open its Properties, on the Details tab you'll find a drop down menu. Scroll down to Bus Reported Device Description to find out which devices are connected to which bus. Unfortunately this won't tell you the locations of the ports, but it helps balancing the load.
While you're at it, uncheck the power saving of each bus.
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It happened again tonight, twice. Lost a kill then worse lost a plane.
Bizman I tried two different computers watching for the power spread as you posted. 35 ma was the highest draw I saw and with a power hub it was zero.
Next step is solder the wires to the pots
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Before you go to the trouble soldering the connections I'd say it's time for a new pot. If you've cleaned them and tightened the connections and are still having the same problem right out of the gate that's a bad sign, You can only clean them so many times but at some point---they're just shot. The good news is that doesn't happen very often. I don't fly near as much as I used to and even then is seemed like it was over a year between tear downs of stick and rudder.
What were you using exactly to clean the pots with? It matters. I tend to avoid using any that include "lubricant". I find whatever is in there tends to attract more dust and just accelerates the process. Use something that says safe for plastics and is lubricant free. Lubricate the mechanical parts for smooth travel but not the electronics. CRC makes some good products. I use CRC mass airflow sensor cleaner for the pots that you can find in just about any auto parts store. Big ol can of it for cheap.
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Drano I used the CRC electronic parts cleaner. Tore it down again and cleaned and crimped again to be sure. Same same. Must be the pots.
Has Ch quiet selling parts?
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Directly pretty much. Anyone have a source for them? Could use a few for the spares box myself while we're on the subject.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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It's unlikely that spiking pots are triggering the lock up. Lock up generally requires rapid full deflections. This is easy to demonstrate by locking up on purpose. A little jitter in the rudder shouldn't be a problem.
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It's unlikely that spiking pots are triggering the lock up. Lock up generally requires rapid full deflections. This is easy to demonstrate by locking up on purpose. A little jitter in the rudder shouldn't be a problem.
thats what I would think :aok
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It's unlikely that spiking pots are triggering the lock up. Lock up generally requires rapid full deflections. This is easy to demonstrate by locking up on purpose. A little jitter in the rudder shouldn't be a problem.
I gave my oscilloscope to my brother but I suspect if i still had it, I would see the spike would show a full range of travel on occasions.
thats what I would think :aok
When you look at your raw data on the W7 settings, does it jump around without touching the control?
What about you FLS?
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I gave my oscilloscope to my brother but I suspect if i still had it, I would see the spike would show a full range of travel on occasions.
When you look at your raw data on the W7 settings, does it jump around without touching the control?
What about you FLS?
I don't have W7....
can you stay on Auto Pilot?
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Good point.
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No offense, but when I get behind you in the MA, your plane is flopping like a fish on land. I think it is working as intended.
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No offense, but when I get behind you in the MA, your plane is flopping like a fish on land. I think it is working as intended.
Yours too.
Again, it has never ever happened on defense
I try not too porpoise or do an stick jiggling on defense but if I kill the power and flop the rudder back and forth to kill speed for an over shoot it could appear that way. But again this has never ever happened on defense. I don't have W7....
can you stay on Auto Pilot?
Yes but I rarely use auto pilot. I manually trim.
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Ink's point was that if your stick was doing something entirely on its own without any input from you it would break auto pilot as if you'd jerked the stick or pedals.
Be a good test to determine if the error was in the stick or.... elsewhere.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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Ink's point was that if your stick was doing something entirely on its own without any input from you it would break auto pilot as if you'd jerked the stick or pedals.
Be a good test to determine if the error was in the stick or.... elsewhere.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
Drano best I can tell is the spikes push it over the edge when stick movement is already aggressive in very low speed, near stall situations and in pursuit using the pedals more than in regular flight. It never happens in straight level flight or like in a dive bomb attack. The toe brakes are now randomly sticking even though I have tightened the pot connectors
It did not happen last night but it did happen twice the night before. Lazer got a proxy on one of those times when it froze and I clipped a tree.
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Drano best I can tell is the spikes push it over the edge when stick movement is already aggressive in very low speed, near stall situations and in pursuit using the pedals more than in regular flight. It never happens in straight level flight or like in a dive bomb attack. The toe brakes are now randomly sticking even though I have tightened the pot connectors
It did not happen last night but it did happen twice the night before. Lazer got a proxy on one of those times when it froze and I clipped a tree.
for that message to appear you need to go full motion on the stick/rudder very quickly back and forth....AFAIK
if you can stay on auto pilot then the stick/rudder is not spiking....that will absolutely break Auto pilot...
Lazer has been doing this for a long time and he is not an idiot.....he says you flop around which would be quickly going full motion on the stick or rudder.....
I am guessing you are trying too hard and putting to much motion into the stick....
I know you are not "new" but you haven't been at this a long time....I know when I have fought ya in the past you seemed to try to use your E and stay fast....
I am guessing you have become more aggressive in your fighting and just not used to that fighting style.....
with time you will and I bet that message will stop.
I could be completely wrong.....it has happened once or twice :D
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Randy i have never hear of this happening, i also dont know much about joysticks. Have you tried turning sensitivity down in the advance control settings? I wasnt taking a shot at you with my previous comment. :cheers:
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No offense, but when I get behind you in the MA, your plane is flopping like a fish on land. I think it is working as intended.
This has been my experience with Randy as well, and over numerous encounters at that.
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I hope the new update will model the Pilot vomiting all over the wind screen from the stick stirring :D. it'll be like a green smelly oil leak.
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I hope the new update will model the Pilot vomiting all over the wind screen from the stick stirring :D. it'll be like a green smelly oil leak.
glzz if your on my 6 again and i puke trying to avoid you and mess up my new stick im going to put a spell on you that your plane will always fly upside down.... :devil
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I will try one more time to help those with little knowledge of electronics. When i see the W7 calibration jumping from 49% to 51 % without touching the pedals what I am seeing is limited by the computer's and monitor's speed to measure and display. An oscilloscope speed and controls could capture full travel spikes that the computer is just not fast enough to read and display.
Now all of you that have posted assuming it is my stick movement only does your raw data show it is jumping around as much as mine.
This has been my experience with Randy as well, and over numerous encounters at that.
I have seen yours do the same several times.
And one more time to those that do not read my past post.
IT HAS NEVER ... NEVER EVER HAPPENED ON DEFENSE.
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Randy you don't need an oscilloscope or a degree in nuclear physics to diagnose a bad pot. Change the pots. Get a new powered hub while you're at it, they're cheap. Try another stick. If you do this and it STILL happens I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it's probably just you. Being on defense has nothing to do with this. You said yourself further up the thread it happens when you're near stall making extreme stick inputs. Could it even possibly be you're being just a little ham handed with the stick? Not possible? I don't know what else to tell you. It's been my experience with you that you have a really hard time with people trying to help you out. You've gotten great advice here from some good people and apparently none of us know what we're talking about. You're welcome. Sheesh.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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I might add it is quite possible for what one person sees to be a reflection of the network latencies of any given connection involved in the fight. High speed maneuvers, at close ranges, can exacerbate the issue.
This has little to do with your immediate Internet connection, unless you are on a high variance/latency connection.
The smoothing code will do its best to present natural transitions, but there is a limit to how effective it can be.
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Randy you don't need an oscilloscope or a degree in nuclear physics to diagnose a bad pot. Change the pots. Get a new powered hub while you're at it, they're cheap. Try another stick. If you do this and it STILL happens I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it's probably just you. Being on defense has nothing to do with this. You said yourself further up the thread it happens when you're near stall making extreme stick inputs. Could it even possibly be you're being just a little ham handed with the stick? Not possible? I don't know what else to tell you. It's been my experience with you that you have a really hard time with people trying to help you out. You've gotten great advice here from some good people and apparently none of us know what we're talking about. You're welcome. Sheesh.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
sounds like "defense" to me
but hey thats cool :rolleyes:
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Drano It is so odd people have completely discounted the problem the pedals have showing a very unstable center position easily seen in AH as well as W7.
sounds like "defense" to me
but hey thats cool :rolleyes:
It is not defense when the guy is in your sight and I am pulling the trigger. :rofl
Skuzzy's point is a good one. A lot of times when we. including myself in this accuse others of :joystick: jiggling it may be acceptable defensive moves with internet situations between the two players that are beyond the ability of smoothing curve to make look correct.
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Drano It is so odd people have completely discounted the problem the pedals have showing a very unstable center position easily seen in AH as well as W7.
It is not defense when the guy is in your sight and I am pulling the trigger. :rofl
Skuzzy's point is a good one. A lot of times when we. including myself in this accuse others of :joystick: jiggling it may be acceptable defensive moves with internet situations between the two players that are beyond the ability of smoothing curve to make look correct.
now that is a true statement....
do you auto record?
it would be good to see when and how it happens.
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glzz if your on my 6 again and i puke trying to avoid you and mess up my new stick im going to put a spell on you that your plane will always fly upside down.... :devil
Hehehehe