General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dichotomy on April 07, 2015, 08:49:34 PM
Title: Interesting debate
Post by: Dichotomy on April 07, 2015, 08:49:34 PM
over on Brobible..
Maverick or Iceman.. who is the better pilot? Back it up with facts will you guys.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Devil 505 on April 07, 2015, 09:39:10 PM
Iceman, obviously.
Mav wasn't even the best pilot in his squadron, that would be Cougar. Mav only got to go after Cougar had a meltdown.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Dichotomy on April 07, 2015, 09:58:11 PM
true but I was thinking. Mav had a more instinctual 'feel' for his aircraft. Iceman was the more tactical thinker. I think they both have their own place in air combat but what makes one pilot 'better' than the other. I'd like to hear from some of the aces of AH and real combat pilots as I am neither.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: eagl on April 07, 2015, 10:29:09 PM
I was a much more instinctual pilot than one guy who couldn't air refuel at night early on in his fighter career. I snagged his deployment sortie (2x 12 hr flights including a half dozen night refuellings across the atlantic) because he couldn't stay on the boom during his night AAR checkout. I fell off the boom maybe twice in my entire career, once the first time I ever went to a tanker and once the first time I refueled with a full weapons loadout. Later on during one of his flight lead upgrade sorties, I was his red air bandit and gunned his brains out and pretty much disrupted his entire gameplan on every engagement. I went to fly trainers and will someday retire as a Major, he went on to become a fighter squadron commander.
I'd say with some confidence that at that time, I had better hands than he did. But that's only one relatively small part of the business of being a good fighter pilot. I could fly the plane just fine, possibly better than he could at the time when we were both in the same squadron, but without question he was better at the overall job than I was.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: SPKmes on April 07, 2015, 10:34:06 PM
Well Maverick and his I am ways caused cougar to meltdown and killed his navigator.... also he broke many a rule and claimed victory even though the rules were not followed so he loses.... Iceman was a dick so he loses. Meg Ryan is hot so she wins all
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: jeep00 on April 09, 2015, 07:41:01 PM
Well Maverick and his I am ways caused cougar to meltdown and killed his navigator.... also he broke many a rule and claimed victory even though the rules were not followed so he loses.... Iceman was a dick so he loses. Meg Ryan is hot so she wins all
This :aok
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Serenity on April 09, 2015, 10:52:42 PM
Well, I'm far from a fighter pilot, but in my experience so far, Iceman is the winner.
I'm very much the instinctual pilot myself. So far, at least in sims, IPs haven't been able to throw anything at me I can't recover from, and I can certainly get the plane where I want it, and make it look good. However, stack me up against another guy I'm competing with, and while he doesn't have the instinctive reactions, and he may be a little slower in his reactions, with enough practice, he gets the plane there just as I do, but he burns less fuel, stays "on the numbers" much better, and is a little more adept at learning the Navy's way of flying (And so he's scoring higher!)
Instinct is GREAT in an airplane, and really helps early on, but at the end of the day, the Navy KNOWS what it's teaching you. He who can follow their ways best will probably be more successful in the long run. Therefore, Iceman wins.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: craz07 on April 10, 2015, 09:59:55 AM
long live goooose his career was stalled no pun intended by maverick
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Zimme83 on April 11, 2015, 08:45:32 PM
Well, all thats matter is that they didnt HO on the merge...
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: DaveBB on April 11, 2015, 09:02:54 PM
That look on Cruise's face is telling him something :D
"I don't know. I just don't know."
Something tells me that Ironside DID in fact see action in his days as a pilot. Vietnam, right?
The actor? No. He's Canadian and pretty much trained to be an actor and a writer in his youth. As for the character, only Skerritt's character is actually stated as being a Viet Nam vet, as he flew with Maverick's father at one time.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Nefarious on April 11, 2015, 09:35:58 PM
Jake Grafton and Cole Virgil Cole.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Saxman on April 11, 2015, 10:43:40 PM
Well Maverick and his I am ways caused cougar to meltdown and killed his navigator.... also he broke many a rule and claimed victory even though the rules were not followed so he loses.... Iceman was a dick so he loses. Meg Ryan is hot so she wins all
the rule about 10,000 feet being the hard deck? The whole engagement was below that.
semp
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Dichotomy on April 12, 2015, 10:59:26 AM
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 12, 2015, 11:20:22 AM
Obviously Iceman. In the real fight at the end of the movie he was engaging five cons and held his own. Even when one of his engines was shot out he still kept control of that Tomcat and survived allowing Maverick to come in and cherry pick the cons one by one. Also he didn't auger his ride even once.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: colmbo on April 12, 2015, 11:28:55 AM
Well Maverick and his I am ways caused cougar to meltdown and killed his navigator.... also he broke many a rule and claimed victory even though the rules were not followed so he loses.... Iceman was a dick so he loses. Meg Ryan is hot so she wins all
Meg Ryan?
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: jimson on April 12, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
Obviously Iceman. In the real fight at the end of the movie he was engaging five cons and held his own. Even when one of his engines was shot out he still kept control of that Tomcat and survived allowing Maverick to come in and cherry pick the cons one by one. Also he didn't auger his ride even once.
And if any one party was culpable for the accident that killed Goose, it was Iceman: He refused to back off and allow Maverick to take the shot even though Maverick had the position and he didn't. AND it was his direction of break that caused Maverick to fly through his jet wash. Maverick was doing exactly what he was supposed to do in the moments leading up to the accident.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Phoenix3107 on April 12, 2015, 11:37:54 AM
And if any one party was culpable for the accident that killed Goose, it was Iceman: He refused to back off and allow Maverick to take the shot even though Maverick had the position and he didn't. AND it was his direction of break that caused Maverick to fly through his jet wash. Maverick was doing exactly what he was supposed to do in the moments leading up to the accident.
So did Iceman ever get called in for investigation after Goose's death, or did they just do Maverick in the whole court-martial scene?
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: XxDaSTaRxx on April 12, 2015, 11:44:52 AM
long live goooose his career was stalled no pun intended by maverick
Goose would have survived had he of followed procedures, which I've heard that when in a flat spin, it is procedure to jettison the canopy before ejecting.
Goose wouldn't have hit the canopy had he of jettisoned it before ejection.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Saxman on April 12, 2015, 11:57:56 AM
So did Iceman ever get called in for investigation after Goose's death, or did they just do Maverick in the whole court-martial scene?
They only showed Maverick, probably just for time. I'd imagine a real investigation would have called on every member of the aircrew from every aircraft involved in the flight, the crew of the rescue chopper, and the guys observing from the tower.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 12, 2015, 12:02:13 PM
Yet despite the accident Iceman graduated top of the class at NAS Miramar and was clearly Maverick's superior later as well.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Phoenix3107 on April 12, 2015, 12:08:58 PM
The dogfight scene with Iceman/Maverick vs. 6 MiG's.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 12, 2015, 12:13:13 PM
Yet despite the accident Iceman graduated top of the class at NAS Miramar and was clearly Maverick's superior later as well.
If you ignore Maverick's Heroic BSOD affecting his rank.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 12, 2015, 12:31:17 PM
That's part of him. The accident messed him up bad. We're not here to argue over why Iceman was better. Maverick might have been better if he didn't have to carry all the baggage with him like his father's history and Goose's death. Fate would have it otherwise. Iceman ended up the better of the two.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Nefarious on April 12, 2015, 12:44:13 PM
When the fight began, Iceman and Hollywood both flew together while Mav was on the carrier readying up for alert launch. Hollywood reports being shot down, thus giving Mav the go-ahead to launch and save Iceman. If all 6 MiG's were going after Iceman, don't you think they would've shot him down already BEFORE Maverick could even manage to enter the battle zone, even at supersonic speed?(That is, unless the fight was dangerously close to the ship where they launched off)
And how come the Tomcats weren't equipped with the long-range Phoenix missiles just in case the MiG's came within range of their radar coverage? I know it's supposed to relate to their training at Miramar, but even a set of those babies would send them scurrying back to land.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: PR3D4TOR on April 12, 2015, 03:19:56 PM
That's why I say Iceman is the best pilot of the two. He managed to survive a 5 or 6 vs one long enough for Maverick to come over and cherry pick the furball.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: DaveBB on April 12, 2015, 05:00:42 PM
As soon as Maverick flew through the jetwash of Iceman's F-14, one of his compressor stalls. We immediately see him use SPOILERON to counter the roll. The NAVY knew about this problem and the procedure to counter a flat spin was to use immediate opposite RUDDER (only about a 2 second window here in which to use rudder) and not to touch the spoileron. So Maverick did three things wrong and got his RIO killed: First he flew into another aircraft's jetwash, second he did not follow procedure in preventing a flat-spin, and third he ordered Goose to eject instead of blowing the canopy.
But then again, even when Maverick begins having an anxiety attack in combat and disengages, he forces himself to return to combat. He employs his training and destroys several enemy Migs.
Note: I read a book about the formation of Top Gun (the Navy fighter weapons school). In real life, two F-4s were tangled up with a Mig-21. The Mig-21 was actually getting the best of them and about to shoot them down. Then one of the pilots had an epiphany, *use what I've learned in training*. He immediately reverted back to using tactics he learned at Top Gun, gained the advantage on the Mig, and shot it down. (Source: Scream of Eagles)
I was a much more instinctual pilot than one guy who couldn't air refuel at night early on in his fighter career. I snagged his deployment sortie (2x 12 hr flights including a half dozen night refuellings across the atlantic) because he couldn't stay on the boom during his night AAR checkout. I fell off the boom maybe twice in my entire career, once the first time I ever went to a tanker and once the first time I refueled with a full weapons loadout. Later on during one of his flight lead upgrade sorties, I was his red air bandit and gunned his brains out and pretty much disrupted his entire gameplan on every engagement. I went to fly trainers and will someday retire as a Major, he went on to become a fighter squadron commander.
I'd say with some confidence that at that time, I had better hands than he did. But that's only one relatively small part of the business of being a good fighter pilot. I could fly the plane just fine, possibly better than he could at the time when we were both in the same squadron, but without question he was better at the overall job than I was.
Are you still AD?
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Zimme83 on April 12, 2015, 06:28:40 PM
When the fight began, Iceman and Hollywood both flew together while Mav was on the carrier readying up for alert launch. Hollywood reports being shot down, thus giving Mav the go-ahead to launch and save Iceman. If all 6 MiG's were going after Iceman, don't you think they would've shot him down already BEFORE Maverick could even manage to enter the battle zone, even at supersonic speed?(That is, unless the fight was dangerously close to the ship where they launched off)
And how come the Tomcats weren't equipped with the long-range Phoenix missiles just in case the MiG's came within range of their radar coverage? I know it's supposed to relate to their training at Miramar, but even a set of those babies would send them scurrying back to land.
If i remember it correctly they say the migs is 250 miles from the carrier, it means that Maveric will need just over 20 minutes to get there if he has an average speed of mach 1...
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Lab Rat 3947 on April 12, 2015, 11:07:54 PM
Quote
The best pilot would obviously be the child of Iceman and Maverick.
Now the only question remains - which one would get pregnant.
that's a no brainer . . . maverick, of course :devil :neener:
just my sense of humor :old:
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: eagl on April 12, 2015, 11:51:50 PM
that's a no brainer . . . maverick, of course :devil :neener:
just my sense of humor :old:
Well he was a bit of a drama queen.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: TopGear on April 16, 2015, 08:27:09 AM
Iceman is the better pilot. By the time Maverick got to the fight the enemy's were in cv puffy ack range and were all pilot wounded or engines were oiled. Maverick just got proxies.
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: Swoop on April 16, 2015, 09:13:31 AM
Someone tell me why, in most 'dogfight' movies, you always get a pilot trying to shake an enemy on his close 6 by doing 30 degree flat turns. :headscratch:
Title: Re: Interesting debate
Post by: -ammo- on April 16, 2015, 12:08:30 PM