Aces High Bulletin Board

Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Muzzy on April 17, 2015, 11:16:20 PM

Title: This is why altitude is hard to figure out.
Post by: Muzzy on April 17, 2015, 11:16:20 PM
(http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j89/ChpGLCorps/alt%20violation_zpshulddlnm.png)
Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: Nefarious on April 17, 2015, 11:18:52 PM
I reviewed my film,  no bombers i recorded A125 area were over 23.9K. Whats you're film show?

- i wil post my film screens tomorrow.
Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: Muzzy on April 17, 2015, 11:22:15 PM
(http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j89/ChpGLCorps/alt%20violation2_zps6d7hvagj.png)

Here's a better resolution. They were at almost 27k. I can try to email the clip to the moderators if necessary.
Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: Nefarious on April 17, 2015, 11:25:16 PM
I'm just saying,  i intercepted this attack too.  I reviewed my film and all were under 23.9K.
Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: APDrone on April 17, 2015, 11:49:55 PM
I was first to spot the B17s.. all were under 24k..  according to my film, anyway.

the bazillion P47s and P38s, however...     :eek:
Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: SlipKnt on April 18, 2015, 12:01:08 AM
If that was us, we were at 23.9K in frame 1.  The film will show you the altitude of all of the planes in range.  You cant go off of your altimeter to gauge another plane's altitude.  Often times we attack formations of bombers and they are lower than we initially thought but don't see it until we are in the formations attacking.

If that is us, I have my film from that frame.  Let me know and I will send it in for review.  No biggie!   :cheers:

 :rock
SlipKnoT

Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: SlipKnt on April 18, 2015, 12:06:15 AM
Just looked at the logs.  That is my squad.  We were at 23.9K. 

Muzzy, if it will satisfy you, please shoot me your email in a PM and I will send you film so you can see our gauges.  No harm no foul.  Just a perception thing. 

 :salute
SlipKnoT
Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: Squire on April 18, 2015, 12:19:30 AM
Always better to use ALT-R and view the film. If you need to send it in please do. Just PM us on the BBS and we will make arrangements.  :salute
Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: Muzzy on April 18, 2015, 12:27:46 AM
cc I rechecked. My mistake. It looked like you were higher but when I checked the film we blew through you at 24k. Apologies.
Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: Squire on April 18, 2015, 12:33:01 AM
No problemo.
Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: ImADot on April 18, 2015, 12:37:19 AM
This is exactly why film is so important. The film records the data and shows you the exact altitudes, whereas a screenshot while you're flying cannot be a reliable source of proof.
Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: KCDitto on April 18, 2015, 12:48:25 AM
This has been going on ever since there has been Alt limits.

Your VIEW does account for the curve of the earth. So yes, it APPEARS that they are to high when spotted but then you focus in on your attack and you do not look at your alt when you start shooting.

I agree with above, film is important.  This should be part of FSO training   :uhoh

 :D
Title: Re: This should be self-explanatory
Post by: Muzzy on April 18, 2015, 01:10:09 AM
This has been going on ever since there has been Alt limits.

Your VIEW does account for the curve of the earth. So yes, it APPEARS that they are to high when spotted but then you focus in on your attack and you do not look at your alt when you start shooting.

I agree with above, film is important.  This should be part of FSO training   :uhoh

 :D

They didn't mention this in orientation.  :D
Title: Re: This is why altitude is hard to figure out.
Post by: SlipKnt on April 18, 2015, 08:30:10 AM
We do the same thing when we are attacking buffs with alt limits.  Our VOX becomes cluttered with SAVE FILM!!!  They are too high!  And it seriously does look crazy high.  Curvature is a crazy thing!  LOL  I think we all missed that in orientation, Brother!

 :salute MUZZY

 :rock
SlipKnoT
Title: Re: This is why altitude is hard to figure out.
Post by: Scca on April 21, 2015, 10:03:00 AM
Ya, this has made me  :headscratch: more than once...

I could have sworn they were higher, but as I get closer, I realize they were below me.  It seems at a distance they appear higher than they really are. 

Of course, I try to get higher, then end up compressing on my attack run.  Adrenaline is a killer....  :x
Title: Re: This is why altitude is hard to figure out.
Post by: Valkyrie on April 27, 2015, 10:40:13 AM
I have seen this to muzzy, and was just as ballistic as you are. Upon reviewing the film it seems aircraft and formations or always lower than they appear. It seems that at altitude you can't get a gauge on people until you are right on them.

I always notice this when we are escorting bombers. They always appear 3-4 sometimes even high K than that. Maybe something we should ask HT about. Its even lead to fights with fighters toping 38k as both squads climbed to get on the other only to figure out we ended up in the stratosphere.
Title: Re: This is why altitude is hard to figure out.
Post by: pembquist on April 28, 2015, 01:35:29 PM
I always notice this when we are escorting bombers. They always appear 3-4 sometimes even high K than that. Maybe something we should ask HT about. Its even lead to fights with fighters toping 38k as both squads climbed to get on the other only to figure out we ended up in the stratosphere.

Thats just the Hypoxia Model, the Euphoria Variable.
Title: Re: This is why altitude is hard to figure out.
Post by: ROC on April 28, 2015, 07:29:18 PM
This is always confusing to me.

I've come to the conclusion that there is an optical allusion that is throwing off my ability to judge altitude. I have to remember, I'm looking at an plane flying over a circular object that has a gravitational pull.  This is keeping my plane, and their plane, level, at least to each others location.

If flat, I would see the plane at the same altitude I was at, and I would see the plane level, side on or head on.  Flying over a curve, I am flying "level", the other planes are "level", at least relative to their exact location.  They are off in the distance, level over a curve, so I am actually seeing the underside of their planes.  Place your hands flat in front of your eyes.   Now spread them apart, but imagine they are over a curve.  Same height, but you're looking at the underside of your hands now.  In the air, you instinctively think if I can see their landing gear, I'm under them. 
But, my lack of scientific edumacation suggests I'm just kinda winging it here.  Looks like they are higher, looks are deceiving.   There are a whole lot of missing elements that help the brain adjust to altitudes, position and such out in the real world that simply can't be duplicated on a monitor, so the effect seems more pronounced on screen.

IMHO, YMMV, and other required disclaimers suggesting I have a clue.
Title: Re: This is why altitude is hard to figure out.
Post by: TheBug on April 28, 2015, 08:06:49 PM
This is always confusing to me.

I've come to the conclusion that there is an optical allusion that is throwing off my ability to judge altitude. I have to remember, I'm looking at an plane flying over a circular object that has a gravitational pull.  This is keeping my plane, and their plane, level, at least to each others location.

If flat, I would see the plane at the same altitude I was at, and I would see the plane level, side on or head on.  Flying over a curve, I am flying "level", the other planes are "level", at least relative to their exact location.  They are off in the distance, level over a curve, so I am actually seeing the underside of their planes.  Place your hands flat in front of your eyes.   Now spread them apart, but imagine they are over a curve.  Same height, but you're looking at the underside of your hands now.  In the air, you instinctively think if I can see their landing gear, I'm under them. 
But, my lack of scientific edumacation suggests I'm just kinda winging it here.  Looks like they are higher, looks are deceiving.   There are a whole lot of missing elements that help the brain adjust to altitudes, position and such out in the real world that simply can't be duplicated on a monitor, so the effect seems more pronounced on screen.

IMHO, YMMV, and other required disclaimers suggesting I have a clue.

I'm sorry but I'm stoned and you still don't make sense.
Title: Re: This is why altitude is hard to figure out.
Post by: ROC on April 28, 2015, 08:30:57 PM
haha ya, I confuse myself most times.  Hard to describe something visual.
Title: Re: This is why altitude is hard to figure out.
Post by: ImADot on April 28, 2015, 10:44:46 PM
It's all so simple...and you can do the calculation in your head:
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll239/ViperDriver/AcesHighII/apj449583fd13_zpsgq9xllr8.gif)
Title: Re: This is why altitude is hard to figure out.
Post by: ROC on April 28, 2015, 11:22:14 PM
You see where you made that mistake, don't you?  :)
Title: Re: This is why altitude is hard to figure out.
Post by: Wiley on April 29, 2015, 10:53:45 AM
What I always chalked it up to is the visible ground when you're low appears closer to level with you than it is when you're at altitude in the game.  The mist obscures the horizon when it's farther away from you, but your brain is so used to seeing 'when it's near where the ground ends, it's close to level with me' it's hard to retrain your brain to realize that level with you is somewhere in the white band on your monitor.

Wiley.