General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DaveBB on May 10, 2015, 07:12:28 PM
Title: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: DaveBB on May 10, 2015, 07:12:28 PM
An Airbus A-400, a military cargo aircraft that looks like a mix between a C-130 and a C-17, has crashed in Spain this weekend. I'm reading about it on Airliners.net. The flight data was available to the public, and it went from being in a 1600fpm climb to a 2900fpm dive. The pilots had reported some kind of problem and it struck high voltage lines. Originally it said there were 2 survivors, I'm not sure if that is accurate.
One of the survivors reported that 3 of the 4 engines did quit... :confused:
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 11, 2015, 10:26:00 AM
Sounds like a fuel system problem then.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Skyyr on May 11, 2015, 10:42:07 AM
This is indeed a terrible, terrible tragedy; but, if an Airbus is going to crash, might as well be after it was argued how pristine their safety record is.
Carry on.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 11, 2015, 11:21:37 AM
Yes, make fun of it some more. You're disgusting.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Skyyr on May 11, 2015, 11:25:05 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Nothing was made fun of. The crash is a terrible tragedy. That being said, we'd be remiss not to note that this came right after it was argued ad naseum that Airbus had a stellar safety record.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Zoney on May 11, 2015, 11:35:33 AM
See Rule #2
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: DaveBB on May 11, 2015, 07:39:45 PM
A B-1B crashed over my state when an electrical panel miswiring shut down all four engines when one engine was shut down. Highly doubt this was a "fuel problem".
Some are now citing software problems.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 13, 2015, 01:33:05 AM
"Engine, Fuel System Focus Of A400M Crash Probe
LONDON – An investigation into the May 9 crash of an Airbus A400M airlifter is focusing on the aircraft’s TP400 engines and associated fuel system..."
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Rich46yo on May 13, 2015, 02:25:13 PM
Its bad news for the program which had very high hopes when it was launched but has stumbled since then. Theres something about multi-national aircraft programs that cause nothing but problems. That and the A-400 was originally conceived as a transport for a world in a Cold War and with a huge American company as part of the consortium. It emerged into a world that really didnt want to buy expensive air-lifters. Most of all in European NATO where they are scratching their heads at paying 3 times the cost of the latest C-130 to get only 33% more payload capacity.
Anyway NATO is dependent on America for air transport anyways whether they buy the A-400 or not and with the Cold War long over nobody in NATO, except for us, has any enthusiasm for big ticket projects. The bottom line is the A-400 just doesnt lift enough to justify the final price. Thats why over 300 C-130J's have either been ordered or delivered. For that matter almost 300 C-117s have also been delivered to customers. The last time I checked there were about 170 firm orders for the A-400 up to 2025, which I believe was conceived as the programs ending.
As an alliance we all really need this plane to sell and need to keep our lift capabilities relevant. The only thing that has kept the western Democracies out of a major war is strength and that strength is largely made up by airlift capability.
My condolences to the families of the crew. Lets hope this gets straightened out and the program put back on track.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: earl1937 on May 13, 2015, 03:40:53 PM
:airplane: Nope! sounds to me like a computer soft ware glitch and again, part of a "fly by wire" system! Like it or not, people are being used as "live test monkeys" for an engineer's dream world. Not saying "fly by wire" won't ever be safe, but how many "bugs" have to be worked out and lives lost before that happens?
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Zimme83 on May 13, 2015, 04:12:40 PM
:airplane: Nope! sounds to me like a computer soft ware glitch and again, part of a "fly by wire" system! Like it or not, people are being used as "live test monkeys" for an engineer's dream world. Not saying "fly by wire" won't ever be safe, but how many "bugs" have to be worked out and lives lost before that happens?
:rofl What u apparently havent figured out is why a lot less people die now compare to the "good ol days". what u also seems to forgot is that the concept with "test mokeys" were the standard back in those days u still dream about. People died like flies both when testing new concepts and when they used them. For example. SwAF lost one third of their fleet of J-29 fighters due to accident with 100+ dead pilots. The JAS-39 on the other hand, a fly-by-wire aircraft, has not killed a single pilot in 30 years. Todays aviation industry is so far away from using "live test monkeys" as it has ever been.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 13, 2015, 06:35:43 PM
:airplane: Nope! sounds to me like a computer soft ware glitch and again, part of a "fly by wire" system! Like it or not, people are being used as "live test monkeys" for an engineer's dream world. Not saying "fly by wire" won't ever be safe, but how many "bugs" have to be worked out and lives lost before that happens?
True. The pilot of this prototype only suffered a broken elbow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6yVU_yYtEc
show me a fighter that hasnt any incidents during develoment, Gripens 2 incidents during development is a very good record. Few fighters can beat it.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Zimme83 on May 14, 2015, 09:22:01 AM
But the point wasnt to show how good Gripen is but to compare the safety record between fighters from the 50s and modern ones. For ex F-86 vs F-16 or F/A-18 works as a comparission too.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Rich46yo on May 14, 2015, 02:02:27 PM
Has the latest Gripen even been exported yet? Also isnt much of its tech licensed from western countries? I think its engines are basically GE engines.
I admire the design as well and think it will find a solid niche in exports.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 14, 2015, 02:37:31 PM
Same F404 series engines as the F-18, though I would consider Sweden a "western country" and to my knowledge no aircraft manufacturer makes its own engines.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Zimme83 on May 14, 2015, 04:11:08 PM
Lol. This tread derailed fast. Must remember to not use any examples in the future.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 14, 2015, 04:15:49 PM
Hey, we're on page two. What'd you expect? :old:
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: xbrit on May 20, 2015, 06:17:27 PM
To get back on track http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32810273
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: DaveBB on May 20, 2015, 06:36:50 PM
Quote
Investigators have found evidence a military plane crash in Spain may have been caused by software problems.
The concept is good. Each engine is controlled by it's own computer, and optimizes the engine output. But something must have went terribly wrong.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 31, 2015, 09:15:56 PM
"LONDON – Incorrectly installed engine control software caused the fatal crash of an A400M airlifter in Spain on May 9, a senior Airbus Group official says. In an interview with the German financial newspaper Handelsblatt, Airbus Chief Strategy Officer Marwan Lahoud said the incorrect installation took place during final assembly of the aircraft, which led to engine failure and the resulting crash."
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: MrRiplEy[H] on June 01, 2015, 03:29:23 AM
A test pilot has always been the most dangerous profession.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 01, 2015, 03:33:25 AM
I thought it was king crab fishing.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Wolfala on June 01, 2015, 11:45:04 AM
Software error. Plaintiffs attorneys are going to have a field day with this one
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: MrRiplEy[H] on June 01, 2015, 11:47:45 AM
Software error. Plaintiffs attorneys are going to have a field day with this one
They probably waived all responsibility in the EULA.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Wolfala on June 01, 2015, 11:59:04 AM
Well played Ripley...well played.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Rich46yo on June 01, 2015, 05:01:45 PM
Im glad they found the reason and its fixable. As I said before NATO needs this program to work.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: icepac on June 01, 2015, 05:59:25 PM
The problem with many computer controlled engines is that they may be shut down by the control system when incurring damage that may not dictate that the engine is physically unable to run.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Karnak on June 01, 2015, 07:50:11 PM
I've never heard of an Airbus (or any FBW system) shutting down an engine without the pilot commanding it to do so.
It is rare, but there was at least one incident of an Airbus fly-by-wire system supposedly not giving engine power even though the pilot had moved the throttles to full.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cv2ud1339E
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 02, 2015, 07:33:10 PM
That's different. The aircraft was in a landing configuration on auto-throttles. We're talking about an uncommanded shutdown of an engine. I've never heard of that and I'd like to know more details about what Icepac is talking about.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Ripsnort on June 03, 2015, 02:51:10 PM
It doesn't count when the airline manufacturer turns itself in. ;)
Boeing detected this in testing and contacted the FAA. That's why we test from the day the model is born until long after it's retired. ;)
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 03, 2015, 03:11:34 PM
Well... To be fair, Airbus also detected the engine fault in testing... The hard way.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Sombra on June 03, 2015, 05:12:27 PM
It seems Germans blame incorrect software installation in the Spanish assembly plant. This dude in a Spanish forum with "first hand knowledge" says that isn't possible...
Now that it is almost known to all, to my knowledge, that is very much first hand, I can say that the origin of the problem lies in the software programming. One of the affected areas has been certain probes that regulate engine power and that, among other things, decrease applied power below 15000 ft. Due to a previous software update, done in Germany, not here, and not in assembly either as it isn't possible (Poka-Yoke) [fool proof procedures] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poka-yoke), someone missed a "zero" and the system cut power at 1500 ft! The matter at hand is the validation of the software by the corresponding "Quality Assurance Service". Not Seville assembly plant, for sure.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: icepac on June 03, 2015, 09:52:08 PM
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 05:54:23 PM
I have and I find nothing about the flight computers of either Airbus or Boeing shutting down engines. There are a lot of articles on engines shutting down uncommanded by themselves due to ice and other malfunctions, but I find nothing on engines being shut down by flight computers. I call bullcrap.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Zimme83 on June 04, 2015, 05:59:22 PM
Errors in design and assembly can happen regardless of the level of technology involved. it shouldnt happen but it does. It is far better than in the past but still not 100%. Fly-by-wire isnt excatly something new to a company like Airbus. Fly-by-wire aircraft has been around for 30 years, it is a well established technology and i dont see why it should be controversial. In this case it sounds like a failure in quality control and testing, dot in the design itself, just like the case of the Dreamliner.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 04, 2015, 10:11:21 PM
And I'd like to point out that the software problem resulting in this A400 crash is not part of the Airbus flight systems. It's the FADEC engine control unit from Europrop. Part of the engine.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Golfer on June 06, 2015, 06:04:31 AM
I have and I find nothing about the flight computers of either Airbus or Boeing shutting down engines. There are a lot of articles on engines shutting down uncommanded by themselves due to ice and other malfunctions, but I find nothing on engines being shut down by flight computers. I call bullcrap.
My old Lear shut an engine down several times on descent with no warning, reason or problem we could find with several in depth and thorough troubleshooting sessions. Landed once and the boss got off the airplane with a "nice flight guys, see you in an hour." Crew response? "Uhh...the left engine shut down on final again so we'll be here a bit waiting for XYZ to come out and do some checks." He shook his head and said we gotta find the problem before we sell the thing and to call when we could leave.
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 06, 2015, 06:39:36 PM
And what did you find was the problem? Did the old Lear have a FBW system? If so, was it able to shut down engines without pilot command?
Title: Re: Airbus A-400 crash
Post by: Zoney on June 06, 2015, 06:41:12 PM