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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bangsbox on May 19, 2015, 01:26:19 PM

Title: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: bangsbox on May 19, 2015, 01:26:19 PM
german AA rocket damage to a halifax. I think we should make ours a bit deadlier.  :devil

damage is from a rocket that exploded near by.
(http://i.imgur.com/ctrkgQ4.jpg)
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 19, 2015, 07:37:31 PM
There were seven people in there. I'm glad that photo is not in color.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: DaveBB on May 19, 2015, 08:40:56 PM
Was the Halifax cloth covered or is that an aluminum skin?
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 19, 2015, 08:45:20 PM
metal skin.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Mister Fork on May 20, 2015, 10:21:17 AM
Jebus. Poor lads.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: BuckShot on May 20, 2015, 12:59:00 PM
Or make them less deadly. Unless the photo is from a camera recovered from the crash site, this plane
made it back.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 20, 2015, 01:00:41 PM
Or make them less deadly. Unless the photo is from a camera recovered from the crash site, this plane
made it back.

While the Halifax made it back, it doesn't look like very many of the crew didn't make it back alive.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: bustr on May 20, 2015, 02:14:36 PM
So maybe this picture should be posted for players who complain about how hard it is to shoot down bombers.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: save on May 20, 2015, 02:25:39 PM
how can we be sure it's a rocket air-to-air hit : 95% of all Halifaxes flew their missions during night time, when they did fly daytime raids they where  punished by the Luftwaffe with heavy losses, due to poor armament formation flying skills, and poor armour.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 20, 2015, 02:28:36 PM
Perhaps you answered your own question.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Flench on May 20, 2015, 07:46:39 PM
german AA rocket damage to a halifax. I think we should make ours a bit deadlier.  :devil

damage is from a rocket that exploded near by.
(http://i.imgur.com/ctrkgQ4.jpg)
Wow at the holes .
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Scherf on May 20, 2015, 10:08:05 PM
when they did fly daytime raids they where  punished by the Luftwaffe with heavy losses, due to poor armament formation flying skills, and poor armour.

Ain't necessarily so. First five months of 1943, BC's daylight loss rate was about 4%. When daylight raids resumed from June '44 to the end of the war, day loss rates never exceeded 1%.

I'd too would like to know more about the original pic. Was it some ground-launched weapon? Air-to-air? A test?
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Scherf on May 20, 2015, 10:16:34 PM
Some claims it was a night-fighter attack:

http://www.reddit.com/r/WWIIplanes/comments/23rsfr/interior_of_a_handley_page_halifax_showing_damage/

and

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/uk/halifax_13.shtml

and that most of the damage was due to ammo boxes in the rear fuselage having exploded.

Will have a look at the Nov '44 ORB for 614 Squadron later on, try to confirm. The British National Archives site has a page from which such things can be downloaded.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Scherf on May 20, 2015, 11:03:03 PM
Had a look at ORB, it confirms JP321 was attacked by a night fighter on Nov 22/23 on leaving the target area, Szombathely (sp?), ammo boxes hit, aircraft suffered major damage, returned, all crew uninjured.

Tony Woods has NJG 101 and NJG 6 aircraft making claims in the right place at the right time, though he lists them on 23/24 November, and they claimed to be attacking Liberators (which, to my own surprise, were actually on the raid, from the same squadron as the Hali in the pic).
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 21, 2015, 05:57:00 AM
Good to hear.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Mike Williams on May 21, 2015, 05:58:42 AM
Nice posts Scherf.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Scherf on May 21, 2015, 07:25:05 AM
No worries Mike.

 :airplane:

Should make clear though, those % loss rates I quoted are by month.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Interceptor on May 21, 2015, 11:11:16 AM
It made it back because the rocket didnt hit the plane, which would have most likely cut the plane in two if it had...

Or make them less deadly. Unless the photo is from a camera recovered from the crash site, this plane
made it back.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Scherf on May 21, 2015, 04:11:11 PM
*sigh*

It wasn't a rocket.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: icepac on May 21, 2015, 07:11:27 PM
They work fine.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8586/16605158046_f743a6b2f4_b.jpg)
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Zoney on May 21, 2015, 07:25:41 PM
They work fine.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8586/16605158046_f743a6b2f4_b.jpg)

Love that screenshot!

That is a "fiver" ya got there, right?  (And yes I know you collided, dang it)
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Charge on May 23, 2015, 03:30:34 AM
German night fighters carried rockets only during daylight interceptions, never at night. If the Halifax took part in a night raid that rules out the chance of a rocket, completely. And Ju88s never carried rockets in any form.

AA? Anti Aircraft, Air to Air? It's just a misuse of a term and creates confusion as there were no Anti Aircraft rockets used by German Anti Aircraft batteries.

Ammo cook-off itself is not particularly dangerous if the boxes do not happen to be in a confined space (such as fighter's wing) and the smaller the rounds, e.g. .303 the less dangerous they are. If a round cooks off there will not be "bullets whizzing about" since the casing tends to rip into pieces and the bullet as the single heaviest piece flies the less distance. But surely it would have been a spectacular fireworks display in the darkness.

All in all such damage could have caused even by a single 7.9 round in a right place but judging by the picture in Scherf's second link I'd say the weapon was most likely a 20mm in schräge musik configuration. The attacking aircraft could have been any German NF aircraft.

-C+
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: bangsbox on May 26, 2015, 03:20:27 AM
You are supposing a night raid...
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Interceptor on May 26, 2015, 04:05:10 AM
What was it ?  :headscratch:

*sigh*

It wasn't a rocket.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Scherf on May 26, 2015, 05:24:39 AM
Cannon fire from a night fighter which caused a fire / explosion in two ammo boxes stored at the rear. The damage is from the Halifax's own ammo cooking off. No rockets involved.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Mister Fork on May 26, 2015, 08:52:12 AM
Cannon fire from a night fighter which caused a fire / explosion in two ammo boxes stored at the rear. The damage is from the Halifax's own ammo cooking off. No rockets involved.

and all made it back alive with no injuries...at least that's what the after-action report said... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Interceptor on May 26, 2015, 09:03:08 AM
Ok, too bad the OP didnt check his story before posting pic... :O
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: bangsbox on May 27, 2015, 01:52:13 PM
Ok, too bad the OP didnt check his story before posting pic... :O

all i had to go on was the caption. which stated " damage received by German rocket attack on a halifax 1943" found in ww2 planes on reddit.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Interceptor on May 27, 2015, 02:22:37 PM
Hopefully we got elders in this (awesome) wwii simulator to know what really happened... :aok

all i had to go on was the caption. which stated " damage received by German rocket attack on a halifax 1943" found in ww2 planes on reddit.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Nefarious on May 27, 2015, 04:38:42 PM
Not taking anything away from these brave crewmen and their effort, but you also have to remember not all of those white spots are bullet/shrapnel damage.

Light penetrating from bullet holes and shrapnel holes gives the impression of more holes than there actually is.

A harrowing mission to be sure though.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Zimme83 on May 27, 2015, 07:34:56 PM
88mm hit on B-17... Have these images in mind when u are mad cause a 30mm hit dont bring the bomber down....

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/aafpix2/2BG/429BS/Sweet%20Pea/B-17G42-38078004a.jpg)
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Interceptor on May 27, 2015, 10:25:19 PM
If u re talking about the 30mm bug, the problem isnt that hits dont bring it down with one shot, the problem is that some hits deliver zero dmg on bombers, depending of the part being hit.... :old:

88mm hit on B-17... Have these images in mind when u are mad cause a 30mm hit dont bring the bomber down....

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/aafpix2/2BG/429BS/Sweet%20Pea/B-17G42-38078004a.jpg)
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: FBKampfer on May 28, 2015, 01:11:36 AM
How the f**k did the tail stay on :O:?
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Lusche on May 28, 2015, 04:26:51 AM
How the f**k did the tail stay on :O:?

Obviously the plane was overmodeled  :old:
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Zimme83 on May 28, 2015, 06:07:18 AM
A 97th BG B-17 after a mid air with a 109...
(http://www.warbirdsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/B-17-All-American-Flight.jpg)
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Butcher on May 28, 2015, 11:54:49 PM
If u re talking about the 30mm bug, the problem isnt that hits dont bring it down with one shot, the problem is that some hits deliver zero dmg on bombers, depending of the part being hit.... :old:

21:03:35 Departed from Field #31 in a Me 262A-1
21:48:38 Shot down a B-26B flown by EVZ.
21:48:48 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
21:48:51 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
21:49:17 Shot down a B-26B flown by tudza.
21:49:48 Helps HamHawk shoot down DWOldDog.
21:49:53 Shot down a B-26B flown by thomace.
21:49:54 Shot down a B-26B flown by thomace.
21:50:39 Shot down a B-26B flown by DWOldDog.
22:01:55 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #31.
23:16:18 Shot down a P-38L flown by SEBaker.
23:16:20 Shot down a P-38J flown by Fencer.
23:16:58 Shot down a P-38J flown by SIK1.
23:17:51 Shot down a P-38J flown by mir.
23:20:52 Helps IrishOne shoot down TomD.
23:21:26 Shot down a P-47D-25 flown by kyle53.
23:23:00 Shot down a P-51D flown by AHJoker.
23:23:46 Shot down a P-51D flown by AHRatTat.
23:33:01 Arrived Safely at Field #31

21:02:45 Departed from Field #31 in a Me 262A-1
21:44:16 Shot down a B-26B flown by EVZ.
21:44:26 Awarded kill as Popsman crashes.
21:44:29 Awarded kill as Popsman crashes.
21:44:50 Shot down a B-26B flown by DWOldDog.
21:45:20 Shot down a B-26B flown by EVZ.
21:45:40 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
21:45:43 Helps 1sum41 shoot down Kuya.
21:45:55 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
21:57:42 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #31.
22:49:00 Helps perdweeb shoot down Wedge.
23:12:42 Shot down a B-26B flown by Durr.
23:13:14 Helps RedBull shoot down Durr.
23:14:19 Helps RedBull shoot down DWOldDog.
23:14:58 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
23:16:15 Shot down a B-26B flown by Popsman.
23:17:27 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
23:21:03 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #31.

23 Victories in 2 sorties in a 262 during a Scenario? don't think many of my 30mm's missed :)
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 29, 2015, 04:26:54 PM
How the f**k did the tail stay on :O:?

Rivets would be my guess... ;)
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Interceptor on June 03, 2015, 05:31:31 AM
262 Top kills is over one hundred in ONE sortie, u still got a long way to reach it...  :neener:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p2_JnwsyB4

21:03:35 Departed from Field #31 in a Me 262A-1
21:48:38 Shot down a B-26B flown by EVZ.
21:48:48 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
21:48:51 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
21:49:17 Shot down a B-26B flown by tudza.
21:49:48 Helps HamHawk shoot down DWOldDog.
21:49:53 Shot down a B-26B flown by thomace.
21:49:54 Shot down a B-26B flown by thomace.
21:50:39 Shot down a B-26B flown by DWOldDog.
22:01:55 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #31.
23:16:18 Shot down a P-38L flown by SEBaker.
23:16:20 Shot down a P-38J flown by Fencer.
23:16:58 Shot down a P-38J flown by SIK1.
23:17:51 Shot down a P-38J flown by mir.
23:20:52 Helps IrishOne shoot down TomD.
23:21:26 Shot down a P-47D-25 flown by kyle53.
23:23:00 Shot down a P-51D flown by AHJoker.
23:23:46 Shot down a P-51D flown by AHRatTat.
23:33:01 Arrived Safely at Field #31

21:02:45 Departed from Field #31 in a Me 262A-1
21:44:16 Shot down a B-26B flown by EVZ.
21:44:26 Awarded kill as Popsman crashes.
21:44:29 Awarded kill as Popsman crashes.
21:44:50 Shot down a B-26B flown by DWOldDog.
21:45:20 Shot down a B-26B flown by EVZ.
21:45:40 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
21:45:43 Helps 1sum41 shoot down Kuya.
21:45:55 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
21:57:42 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #31.
22:49:00 Helps perdweeb shoot down Wedge.
23:12:42 Shot down a B-26B flown by Durr.
23:13:14 Helps RedBull shoot down Durr.
23:14:19 Helps RedBull shoot down DWOldDog.
23:14:58 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
23:16:15 Shot down a B-26B flown by Popsman.
23:17:27 Shot down a B-26B flown by Kuya.
23:21:03 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #31.

23 Victories in 2 sorties in a 262 during a Scenario? don't think many of my 30mm's missed :)
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: PR3D4TOR on June 03, 2015, 05:41:58 AM
262 Top kills is over one hundred in ONE sortie, u still got a long way to reach it...  :neener:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p2_JnwsyB4

That's "only" 99 kills Grizz got on his epic jet run. ;)
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: JVboob on June 21, 2015, 01:37:08 AM
wouldnt it be nice if the damage models showed like those 17s!!
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Karnak on June 21, 2015, 04:38:41 AM
wouldnt it be nice if the damage models showed like those 17s!!
These B-17 shots are remarkable because they are remarkable.  Damage did not normally look like the Halifax or B-17 shots in this thread so those would not be reasonable images to base damage visuals on.
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Interceptor on June 22, 2015, 12:15:03 PM
Weird, not a lot of schrapnel holes...Looks like a collision with an enemy fighter. 88s had very high velocity shrapnels , designed to hit serveral planes in a "cube" area in air., there should have tons of little holes in "hit" area... :headscratch:

88mm hit on B-17... Have these images in mind when u are mad cause a 30mm hit dont bring the bomber down....

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l304/aafpix2/2BG/429BS/Sweet%20Pea/B-17G42-38078004a.jpg)
Title: Re: german AA rocket damage to a halifax
Post by: Brooke on July 03, 2015, 02:22:34 AM
That's "only" 99 kills Grizz got on his epic jet run. ;)

Yep, and he had to refuel at least once, too!