General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FX1 on May 19, 2015, 06:57:02 PM
Title: Open carry Texas
Post by: FX1 on May 19, 2015, 06:57:02 PM
So it looks like we will be able to pack a hog leg very soon in our great state. Personally I will never open carry but it looks like their are a fair amount of people in the state that want the right to do so. Headed to sti tomorrow for a sit down with my gun smith and build a open carry "bling gun" for my safe. Just for the fun of it.
He also has a sgl 31 of mine to chrome plate for a blind ranch gun to break out for my Yankee friends. Their a great group of guys and always have a blast posting pics of them down in Texas shooting ak's and other toys they can't have.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Oldman731 on May 19, 2015, 07:46:21 PM
So it looks like we will be able to pack a hog leg very soon in our great state. Personally I will never open carry
Thank you. Otherwise I would fear for your safety.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think anyone who wants to open carry is an idiot. It's an open invitation to any wandering nut, which says: "Go ahead, see if you can get it away from me while I'm not looking."
I know, I know, the chicks really dig it....and there are SO MANY other good uses for it...
- oldman (walking away, shaking his head)
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: dentin on May 19, 2015, 08:21:05 PM
Naw..CCW is the only way to "carry"..has the potential to keep bad guys guessing. :old:
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FX1 on May 19, 2015, 08:23:26 PM
Its silly to me but I am firearms so much its not a big deal. We already have guns in our trucks and that's all I need or want. I thinks its more geared to the newer firearm buyers so they have a reason to walk around with their new pistol. We do have a sidearm at a couple ranches down south near the boarder but that a ranch rule. They have foot traffic all the time and want to make sure the clients can fight back if needed.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Motherland on May 19, 2015, 09:51:01 PM
Is the only 'Yankee' state Massachusetts? We have more permissive gun laws in Pennsylvania (and plenty of other northeastern states) than anywhere else in the country, including Texas for sure.
No one open carries in Pennsylvania even though it's legal and has always been legal because it's stupid then again all you have to do to get a CC permit here is ask for it
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: JimmyD3 on May 19, 2015, 10:22:54 PM
Its never stupid to be able to carry a weapon, however, when ever and where you want, assuming of course you are a sane law abiding citizen. :airplane:
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: guncrasher on May 19, 2015, 11:14:26 PM
Its never stupid to be able to carry a weapon, however, when ever and where you want, assuming of course you are a sane law abiding citizen. :airplane:
well I double dare you to open carry a gun into a bank :).
semp
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FBKampfer on May 20, 2015, 12:34:20 AM
Its never stupid to be able to carry a weapon, however, when ever and where you want, assuming of course you are a sane law abiding citizen. :airplane:
It absolutely is. Concerts, public gatherings, any situation in which one gunman sparking a free for all simply because nobody can tell which love muffin firing wildly is the real bad guy, and which ones are just law abiding citizens exercising their inalienable, American and utterly stupid right to carry a firearm on their person at all times.
Giving everybody a gun may be the best way to help those that would actually want to kill civilians; one shooter will start off a chain reaction, and result in exponentially greater casualties.
Don't get me wrong, I support the 2nd, but there's a point where it stops being reasonable, a point where it stops being smarter, and safe.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Aspen on May 20, 2015, 01:00:31 AM
We have open carry here in CO. I might see one or two folks a year carrying in town unless it's at a gun show. I see a lot more that are carrying concealed but don't realize or don't care that they are imprinting. I hang out in parts of WY where lots of folks carry open and its just no big deal. When it comes to more vs less freedom, I'll take more about every time. It comes with risks and responsibilities and thats ok with me. I don't carry all the time and never open carry because in a bad situation I would rather the bad guy have as little information as possible.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FLOOB on May 20, 2015, 01:19:53 AM
Open carry is illegal in texas? I thought that concealed carry was potentially naughty and that's why you needed a special permit as opposed to open carry. So basically you can't carry a firearm around on your person at all without some kind of special beauracratic ink and paper in texas?
If open carry is illegal in texas, how is hunting legal in texas? Its all starting to taste very stupid and contradictory.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 20, 2015, 01:45:28 AM
I would say that it would be better for everyone if no one but police carried weapons. How many legal guns are involved in domestic violence for example? But u do as u want i dont really bother. I just prefer the Swedish way to handle firearms. I feel safer if i know that no one in my neighbourhood is carrying weapons except for hunting.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: ink on May 20, 2015, 02:40:16 AM
It absolutely is. Concerts, public gatherings, any situation in which one gunman sparking a free for all simply because nobody can tell which love muffin firing wildly is the real bad guy, and which ones are just law abiding citizens exercising their inalienable, American and utterly stupid right to carry a firearm on their person at all times.
Giving everybody a gun may be the best way to help those that would actually want to kill civilians; one shooter will start off a chain reaction, and result in exponentially greater casualties.
Don't get me wrong, I support the 2nd, but there's a point where it stops being reasonable, a point where it stops being smarter, and safe.
completely disagree
criminals feed off the weak.....
there would be far less criminals if everyone was armed and willing to stand up to evil man.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Aspen on May 20, 2015, 03:02:52 AM
In a huge part of America, its pretty uncommon to find folks who don't feel safe living their normal life. Its a big place with lots of people and bad stuff can happen anywhere, but if you take out the big urban areas the statistics look totally different. We have places where the front door rarely gets locked and the keys are usually in the ignition with the car in the driveway.
Odds of getting shot and killed by someone with a gun in the U.S. are about 3 per 100,000. Odds of getting raped in Sweden are about 63 per 100,000 (way higher than most developed countries). I'm guessing that there's more to it and that your average Swedish woman doesn't leave the house overly concerned about her safety.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 20, 2015, 03:14:43 AM
Comparing rape stastistic between countries is completley irrelvant since its meassured and defined different. Sweden havea very wide definition of rape and that means that more cases are concidered as rapes. Stastistically the most dangerous man for a woman is the one she lives (or lived) with.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: guncrasher on May 20, 2015, 03:32:27 AM
Is the only 'Yankee' state Massachusetts? We have more permissive gun laws in Pennsylvania (and plenty of other northeastern states) than anywhere else in the country, including Texas for sure.
No one open carries in Pennsylvania even though it's legal and has always been legal because it's stupid then again all you have to do to get a CC permit here is ask for it
Agreed, Id out PA up against any other state when it comes to our gun laws.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: WWhiskey on May 20, 2015, 05:02:41 AM
there should be a requirement that if you want to have rights, you should know what your rights are :bhead :bhead :bhead
semp
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Thruster on May 20, 2015, 07:29:25 AM
In a state where it's 80+ degrees half the year it's a blessing. Seems like the real winners are the concealed carry folks who don't want to worry about printing or an occasional flash of steel. Call it "discrete carry". Besides, reducing the number of peaceful activities that are illegal is a commendable effort in my book. The fewer encounters a civilian has with law enforcement the better.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Mitchell on May 20, 2015, 08:10:32 AM
It absolutely is. Concerts, public gatherings, any situation in which one gunman sparking a free for all simply because nobody can tell which love muffin firing wildly is the real bad guy, and which ones are just law abiding citizens exercising their inalienable, American and utterly stupid right to carry a firearm on their person at all times.
Giving everybody a gun may be the best way to help those that would actually want to kill civilians; one shooter will start off a chain reaction, and result in exponentially greater casualties.
Don't get me wrong, I support the 2nd, but there's a point where it stops being reasonable, a point where it stops being smarter, and safe.
I've heard this reasoning before, you assume that if one guy with a gun sees another guy with a gun they will each think the other is a bad guy. Has it ever actually happened, that one bad guy caused multiple people to draw their weapons and then everyone shots each other to bits?
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 20, 2015, 08:51:03 AM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: ebfd11 on May 20, 2015, 09:26:37 AM
well I double dare you to open carry a gun into a bank :).
semp
When i was repoing cars I had 3 I kept on my person, 1 on my hip and 2 concealed, I walked into banks..resturaunts...even the local PD and no one said a thing to me... The only time I got yelled at is when I went into the court room for some personal business. I left my regular side arm with the bailiff, then set off the metal detector because of my 2 that were concealed.
If done right and done legally there will be no problems what so ever. Find out what your local laws are and do it responsibly.
LAwnDart
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Aspen on May 20, 2015, 09:40:59 AM
Comparing rape stastistic between countries is completley irrelvant since its meassured and defined different. Sweden havea very wide definition of rape and that means that more cases are concidered as rapes. Stastistically the most dangerous man for a woman is the one she lives (or lived) with.
Exactly what I was saying. Its easy to look at the headlines and a quick look at the stats and get the wrong impression. Sweden grabs headlines for being one of the worlds biggest arms exporters because per capita they are usually at or near the top. Take out the "per capita" part and its a different story.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FX1 on May 20, 2015, 10:29:22 AM
For people handing large amounts of cash open carry would be the way to go. I really don't think its going to be a big deal at all. Especially out side the larger cities.. We all have weapons and seeing a revolver on someone hip isn't going to make people run in the other direction..
I live in Austin for 40 years and never really have locked my door or had any robberies. Really safe place if you ask me.. Also i have never heard a gun shot inside the city and spend a lot of time out side working on projects or on the deck. We also live in a upper middle class area but that wasn't the case during my 20's.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: jimson on May 20, 2015, 10:47:16 AM
You will see that here in AZ, where open carry has always been allowed. Not so much now, because concealed carry is now allowed without permit.
A couple years ago I stood in the teller line next to someone with a holstered pistol.
When you cross into AZ, they stop you at the border and check you for guns, and if you don't have one, they lend you one.
not talking about a gun in your holster. talking about walking into a bank with a rifle in your hands the way some open carry do.
And btw I live next to Arizona been there many times. nobody is at the border, they don't give you guns, and I have yet to see one carrying one. But go ahead dream on :).
semp
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Widewing on May 20, 2015, 12:18:40 PM
There are times for open carry, and times for concealed carry. One needs the good judgment to know when and where. Hiking in the mountains? Open carry. Dinner in a nice restaurant? Concealed carry. This isn't rocket science, just common sense.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FLOOB on May 20, 2015, 02:13:03 PM
What I'm afraid of or not and what I think is a good idea or not are two completely separate things. Your idea of 'people being people' is obviously different from mine. That's all that needs to be said.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: bustr on May 20, 2015, 05:37:35 PM
What I'm afraid of or not and what I think is a good idea or not are two completely separate things. Your idea of 'people being people' is obviously different from mine. That's all that needs to be said.
Wiley.
And so the convoluting carry's on. What you are afraid of is the source of your idea because fear is subjective. You cannot separate them so as to shield yourself from saying you are afraid of your fellow humans, and more so if they are armed. Your idea could not exist if first you were not afraid of your fellow humans.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: JimmyD3 on May 20, 2015, 05:39:37 PM
Dang! I guess everyone missed the assumption. :neener:
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FBKampfer on May 20, 2015, 07:15:54 PM
I've heard this reasoning before, you assume that if one guy with a gun sees another guy with a gun they will each think the other is a bad guy. Has it ever actually happened, that one bad guy caused multiple people to draw their weapons and then everyone shots each other to bits?
Very rarely do armed crimes and gun carrying citizens meet. Certainly not in large enough scale for this to occur (thus far). But it does demonstrate the flaw in the argument that "if everyone had a gun, the criminals couldn't get away with it".
Usually with shootings, their intent seems to be to simply kill people, not get away with it. Add in people in street clothes packing heat, whipping out their glocks, or whatever they have, and you've got chaos.
I don't know about you, but even if I have a gun, I have a strong disinclination to being around other people I don't know who also have guns. Especially if there's a shooting in progress. There might be multiple shooters, a single one, he might have associates in another location, and I can't be sure if the yahoo across the street is just some yahoo exercising his right to open carry, or a shooter.
If I had the choice, I'm gonna get the hell out of there. If I'm forced to stay, I'm finding a corner and assuming anyone approaching with a gun is hostile. Especially if my girlfriend is with me.
Add on top of that unarmed people even less likely to be thinking clearly, and they're going to be running from anyone with a gun. They're going to crowd exits even worse, some will no doubt blunder into the real danger trying to escape the overzealous Texan in the crowd.
Guns and an armed populace have their place and their purpose. Serving as their own law enforcement is not one of them.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 20, 2015, 07:25:53 PM
And so the convoluting carry's on. What you are afraid of is the source of your idea because fear is subjective. You cannot separate them so as to shield yourself from saying you are afraid of your fellow humans, and more so if they are armed. Your idea could not exist if first you were not afraid of your fellow humans.
I reiterate. I do not fear them. However, I do not trust a high enough percentage of the general population to not do monumentally stupid stuff on occasion. I am sorry you do not see the distinction.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Flench on May 20, 2015, 07:29:10 PM
Open carry here in Mississippi . See it all the time . I have to open carry mine for I have not had the 150 bucks for my OCP . There good for five years tho . I rather carry concealed but until then it has to be in the open .
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FBKampfer on May 20, 2015, 08:18:01 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: WWhiskey on May 20, 2015, 08:42:43 PM
Fear of personal mortality will never let them agree you have a right to bare arms.
I think everyone agrees that Wiley has a right to bare arms. Hey, if Ink gets involved, Wiley's bare arms could be artistic.
That said, you haven't addressed the issue of why anyone would want to open carry (except as Widewing noted, if you're hiking). It makes you a target. It scares women and children. It steers others to join the Brady Center. What in the world does the carrier get out of it in return, except perhaps a sense of pride that translates to "Hey, look at me! I have a real gun! And a Three Wolf Moon t-shirt! Arnold Schwarzenegger is my best bud! Want to have a drink?"
- oldman
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skuzzy on May 21, 2015, 06:17:02 AM
The discussion about guns is fine. Please stay out of the political aspect of it.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Shamus on May 21, 2015, 09:25:46 AM
When I see someone open carry in an urban or suburban area all I think is "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, NO OVER HERE, LOOK AT ME !!!!!!"
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: WWhiskey on May 21, 2015, 10:04:49 AM
The thing I think the law addresses here is concealed carry mishaps, the law will only apply to concealed carry holders, not everyone, but if you are concealed, at the Walmart , bending over to get your cat liter and your pistol shows for 6 seconds or so,, you don't have to worry about someone turning you in for open carry! just a thought!
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: guncrasher on May 21, 2015, 12:22:09 PM
whiskey, bend at the knees.
semp
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Thruster on May 21, 2015, 12:47:54 PM
Yeah well put in about 30 years workin' for a livin' and those knees might let you do that once a day...maybe. I know a dude who's knees crack so bad it makes his dog jump.
Too old to run, to young to die.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: WWhiskey on May 21, 2015, 12:52:35 PM
Just sayin! It ain't me, I hate cats! Lol. ( cat laying on my toes)
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Hetzer7 on May 21, 2015, 01:08:04 PM
Yeah well put in about 30 years workin' for a livin' and those knees might let you do that once a day...maybe. I know a dude who's knees crack so bad it makes his dog jump.
Too old to run, to young to die.
yeah well i got 35 years working. left ankle tore 1 1/2 ligaments last year. this year it was my right foot and back's turn. on top of that I have neuropathy which makes my legs and arms hurt pretty bad. but I still have to go to work and pick up heavy stuff.
was so proud of myself 2 weeks ago. I was able to run 50 yards. havent tried again since then I may start liking jogging again and dont want to take any chances :old:.
semp
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Mister Fork on May 21, 2015, 02:41:10 PM
I think everyone agrees that Wiley has a right to bare arms. Hey, if Ink gets involved, Wiley's bare arms could be artistic.
That said, you haven't addressed the issue of why anyone would want to open carry (except as Widewing noted, if you're hiking). It makes you a target. It scares women and children. It steers others to join the Brady Center. What in the world does the carrier get out of it in return, except perhaps a sense of pride that translates to "Hey, look at me! I have a real gun! And a Three Wolf Moon t-shirt! Arnold Schwarzenegger is my best bud! Want to have a drink?"
- oldman
+1
Let me tell ya'll about open carry and the % of those who actually use their firearms for their intended purpose. Apart from the fact that 10% of cops are killed by assailants stealing their weapon and turning in on them, why would you want to even advertise the fact you're armed?
To me, if I was a criminal, the fact you're carrying a open weapon tells me a lot about you and makes committing a crime against you that much easier. And then, if you are an open-carry, if confronted, you have to be 'programmed' to shoot to kill, and shoot accurately with a really crappy weapon for accuracy and not accidently hit a loved one or innocent because you'll be charged with manslaughter. And so on it goes. And if a crook has half a brain, you're showing them what you got and how truly vulnerable you are.
If you insist on carrying a weapon, get a concealed permit. And then get to the range to get good at shooting effectively and accurately without thinking. Because if you cannot shoot well without thinking, you may be better and safer by keep your guns for the range because you're a liability to others and your family/self.
And you cannot say 'oh look at the Canuck - land of no guns'.... well.... strange fact...when it comes to guns-per-capita, Canada isn't that much different than the US - we're 12th on the list for weapons-per - like 31/100. We just have carry laws that make practical sense and hence our low death rate from guns. Ask Switzerland how well their new gun laws are working yet still have a very high weapons/per.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skyyr on May 21, 2015, 02:54:10 PM
Let me tell ya'll about open carry and the % of those who actually use their firearms for their intended purpose. Apart from the fact that 10% of cops are killed by assailants stealing their weapon and turning in on them, why would you want to even advertise the fact you're armed?
To me, if I was a criminal, the fact you're carrying a open weapon tells me a lot about you and makes committing a crime against you that much easier. And then, if you are an open-carry, if confronted, you have to be 'programmed' to shoot to kill, and shoot accurately with a really crappy weapon for accuracy and not accidently hit a loved one or innocent because you'll be charged with manslaughter. And so on it goes. And if a crook has half a brain, you're showing them what you got and how truly vulnerable you are.
If you insist on carrying a weapon, get a concealed permit. And then get to the range to get good at shooting effectively and accurately without thinking. Because if you cannot shoot well without thinking, you may be better and safer by keep your guns for the range because you're a liability to others and your family/self.
Vaccinations don't work when only 1%, 10%, or even 20% are vaccinated - a large majority has to partake for it to be effective. The right to bear arms was intended to work similarly. The majority was supposed to be armed, so that it didn't matter if you could see if someone was armed or not, as anyone and everyone else around you likely was. In today's society, carrying weapons in any capacity is still a minority in most communities (regardless of how accepted it is).
Your argument fails to address this, and focuses on the open carry aspect instead of the fact that the open carrier is likely the only carrier in the area.
If you switch your example to a community where 65% of the community carries a weapon (either concealed or otherwise), it wouldn't matter who was carrying openly, even with a criminal present, because he has a 2 in 3 chance of running into someone else armed.
The issue with open carry is not open carry itself, it's the fact that carrying a weapon is rare enough as it is that it makes you a target of opportunity, just like driving a Lamborghini in downtown Detroit would make you a prime target not because of the Lamborghini, but rather the fact they aren't common given the populace. The police in England used to have (and still do, to some degree) the exact same issue of having their weapons stolen.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Mister Fork on May 21, 2015, 03:03:15 PM
Vaccinations don't work when only 1%, 10%, or even 20% are vaccinated - a large majority has to partake for it to be effective. The right to bear arms was intended to work similarly. The majority was supposed to be armed, so that it didn't matter if you could see if someone was armed or not, as anyone and everyone else around you likely was. In today's society, carrying weapons in any capacity is still a minority in most communities (regardless of how accepted it is).
Your argument fails to address this, and focuses on the open carry aspect instead of the fact that the open carrier is likely the only carrier in the area.
If you switch your example to a community where 65% of the community carries a weapon (either concealed or otherwise), it wouldn't matter who was carrying openly, even with a criminal present, because he has a 2 in 3 chance of running into someone else armed.
The issue with open carry is not open carry itself, it's the fact that carrying a weapon is rare enough as it is that it makes you a target of opportunity, just like driving a Lamborghini in downtown Detroit would make you a prime target. The police in England used to have (and still do, to some degree) the exact same issue of having their weapons stolen.
A community with 65% conceal permits is far safer than a community of 65% open carry because I trust those who have them concealed to be more a professional weapons owner. And if you're not programmed to shoot without thinking and shoot well, keep it home. I'm saying this as a military veteran and former weapons instructor. And I sadly know what it takes to pull a trigger - besides, open carrying a weapon to deter crime and then shoot out of fear is it ever going to end well? I'm not saying you're not allowed to carry, I'm saying from experience how to carry effectively to protect yourself as someone who managed and taught weapons handling as part of their job.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: jeep00 on May 21, 2015, 06:31:27 PM
Hunting aside: Concealed is for protection. Open is for attention. There are no two ways about this. I would trust the ability to properly handle the weapon to the person who chooses concealed because they know why they are carrying in the first place and are vastly more likely to understand the full consequence of what their "right" entails. IMO of course.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: bustr on May 21, 2015, 08:23:03 PM
This is still fear of other humans because of how they choose to do something that you have no control over. Your wife or a friend is more likely to accidentally drop a hammer on your head while helping on a project, than someone open carrying deciding you need an extra hole in your body or having an accidental discharge.
There would be no conversation here if you were not afraid of the minuscule possibility of your own mortality if someone other than yourself is openly carrying a fire arm. We would still be having this conversation over the public carrying of short swords if that were the personal arm of today. And the one with the most experience would always say the rest of you are unqualified because his experience trumps everyone else's life.
The real conversation being convoluted, is the fear of mortality by not having control of others when they carry a weapon. Be honest and have that conversation. But, then Skuzzy would have to lock this post for all the name calling and references to constitutional and natural rights, and admissions of how much some distrust others to even brush their teeth in a public space that would erupt.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Scherf on May 21, 2015, 09:02:38 PM
This is still fear of other humans because of how they choose to do something that you have no control over. Your wife or a friend is more likely to accidentally drop a hammer on your head while helping on a project, than someone open carrying deciding you need an extra hole in your body or having an accidental discharge.
Once again, and more slowly this time, Bustr... It's not about personal fear. It's about looking at the situation at all critically.
What are the odds of someone whose entire training process consisted of:
Purchase gun. Load gun. Wear gun.
being an asset should it ever become time to use it?
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FBKampfer on May 21, 2015, 10:05:04 PM
Wiley, there's zero chance, but that's not what Bustr wants to talk about. The practicality of the situation or whether or not open carry (or wide carrying of firearms) makes the country safer is likely quite immaterial to him, so long as he can trot out his quasi-philosiphisim, and pedantry. I suspect he chose to argue for carrying simply because he could pontificate at greater length.
In matters pertaining to aircraft, and factual data, he seems to be a fount of knowledge. In all other areas, his main goal seems to be to try and convince us he's quite a clever fellow. We've seen this in game, and now I've seen it for myself on the boards.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FLOOB on May 21, 2015, 10:43:39 PM
It's really the Cossacks fault. Dissing the Banditos like that, really left them no choice.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: jimson on May 21, 2015, 11:52:44 PM
And btw I live next to Arizona been there many times. nobody is at the border, they don't give you guns, and I have yet to see one carrying one. But go ahead dream on :).
Your'e kidding right? I mean you really couldn't fail to recognize that as a joke could you?
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: NatCigg on May 22, 2015, 03:35:10 AM
:huh umm texas, are you ok? I know youve been working outside for a long time, its hot, a little dry. why dont you just come in for a drink?
:cool: Now, flashing your piece is kind of cool and all but um...we don't need every aspect of life sitting table side with death and a pistol. :pray
ok, whatever. do what you want. but remember, we told you so.
:bolt:
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 06:28:52 AM
If weapons (of any kind) was a a normal part of people's lives, like it used to be in the past, people wouldn't be pathologically afraid of them or their fellow man. By removing guns from everyday life they've become alien objects that stand out and shocks people. And by removing people's experience and knowledge about guns, they've become objects of irrational fears and exaggerated risk factors.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: WWhiskey on May 22, 2015, 06:37:50 AM
If weapons (of any kind) was a a normal part of people's lives, like it used to be in the past, people wouldn't be pathologically afraid of them or their fellow man. By removing guns from everyday life they've become alien objects that stand out and shocks people. And by removing people's experience and knowledge about guns, they've become objects of irrational fears and exaggerated risk factors.
we have a winner!
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: guncrasher on May 22, 2015, 07:34:28 AM
If weapons (of any kind) was a a normal part of people's lives, like it used to be in the past, people wouldn't be pathologically afraid of them or their fellow man. By removing guns from everyday life they've become alien objects that stand out and shocks people. And by removing people's experience and knowledge about guns, they've become objects of irrational fears and exaggerated risk factors.
Its not the guns, its the idiots carrying them into Starbucks that people are afraid of.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skyyr on May 22, 2015, 09:57:35 AM
Once again, and more slowly this time, Bustr... It's not about personal fear. It's about looking at the situation at all critically.
If you were truly interested in thinking critically, you'd realize that baseball bats and hammers each kill more people than open carry weapons. You'd also realize that more people die to car wrecks every year in the US than are killed with firearms (both legally and illegally), and that knives result in more serious injuries than firearms. However, you have no fear of watching a baseball game (even though baseball bats are one of the most common murder weapons) and likely think little of carrying a pocket knife, all the while driving one of the top causes of death (a car) on the way to work.
Quite literally, guns are one of the least-used mechanisms for loss of life and limb in the US. If you're truly concerned about guns, you should start by removing the items from your life listed above.
Pred4tor is quite right - it's an irrational fear based on lack of exposure and a lack of true logical thinking.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 10:09:56 AM
If weapons (of any kind) was a a normal part of people's lives, like it used to be in the past, people wouldn't be pathologically afraid of them or their fellow man. By removing guns from everyday life they've become alien objects that stand out and shocks people. And by removing people's experience and knowledge about guns, they've become objects of irrational fears and exaggerated risk factors.
I don't think there's anything irrational about having non-military people walking around in public with assault rifles. For what?
Guy's got 30 rounds in a magazine armed and loaded and you want me to look at him as I do anyone else? He could harm a dozen people in seconds.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skuzzy on May 22, 2015, 10:20:57 AM
As Starbuck's has posted signs forbidding guns to be carried on their premises, you should be concerned about the person who carries one onto the property, as that person has already demonstrated a disdain for the law.
Most businesses have properly posted signs which prohibit guns from being carried in their place of business.
If I see a person carrying a gun in any of those places, I will not hesitate to call the police.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 10:27:28 AM
If you were truly interested in thinking critically, you'd realize that baseball bats and hammers each kill more people than open carry weapons. You'd also realize that more people die to car wrecks every year in the US than are killed with firearms (both legally and illegally), and that knives result in more serious injuries than firearms. However, you have no fear of watching a baseball game (even though baseball bats are one of the most common murder weapons) and likely think little of carrying a pocket knife, all the while driving one of the top causes of death (a car) on the way to work.
Quite literally, guns are one of the least-used mechanisms for loss of life and limb in the US. If you're truly concerned about guns, you should start by removing the items from your life listed above.
Pred4tor is quite right - it's an irrational fear based on lack of exposure and a lack of true logical thinking.
Yup. And as I stated before. CCW good. Open carry stupid. As I also stated before, nobody will change anybody's mind here. IBTL.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 10:34:51 AM
As Starbuck's has posted signs forbidding guns to be carried on their premises...
That's a different matter. Starbucks is well within their rights to deny service to anyone breaking their rules and dismissing them from their property. However, violating Starbucks rules is not violating the law. It's just rude.
Bring a gun into a store, and a customer isn't likely breaking the law. Ask someone with a gun to leave, and a business isn't likely violating anyone's rights. Refuse to leave when asked, then you could be breaking the law, gun or not.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: jimson on May 22, 2015, 10:37:29 AM
I don't think there's anything irrational about having non-military people walking around in public with assault rifles. For what?
Guy's got 30 rounds in a magazine armed and loaded and you want me to look at him as I do anyone else? He could harm a dozen people in seconds.
Firstly, actual "assault rifles" were greatly restricted from ownership in 1968 and banned in 1986. The only "assault rifles" in private ownership now are those registered prior to 1986, and those are in the ballpark of $20,000-50,000, or more. So no, there is no such thing as a regular guy walking around with an "assault rifle."
The rifle you're referring to is literally no different than a hunting rifle - it just "looks" scary. Now that we're cleared up on that...
You could be killed instantly from a collision while driving. And according to statistics, you're much, much, much more likely to have that happen to you than you are to be killed while encountering 100 open carriers. Your fear is literally quite irrational.
That's a different matter. Starbucks is well within their rights to deny service to anyone breaking their rules and dismissing them from their property. However, violating Starbucks rules is not violating the law. It's just rude.
Bring a gun into a store, and a customer isn't likely breaking the law. Ask someone with a gun to leave, and a business isn't likely violating anyone's rights. Refuse to leave when asked, then you could be breaking the law, gun or not.
That's actually not true. Most states allow for criminal prosecution (many times felony charges) and revoking of firearm carry and/or ownership rights for violating a "no weapons" policy.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: WWhiskey on May 22, 2015, 10:40:18 AM
As Starbuck's has posted signs forbidding guns to be carried on their premises, you should be concerned about the person who carries one onto the property, as that person has already demonstrated a disdain for the law.
Most businesses have properly posted signs which prohibit guns from being carried in their place of business.
If I see a person carrying a gun in any of those places, I will not hesitate to call the police.
I'm all for business and or property owners rights to not allow guns inside their establishments.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FBKampfer on May 22, 2015, 10:40:55 AM
If you were truly interested in thinking critically, you'd realize that baseball bats and hammers each kill more people than open carry weapons. You'd also realize that more people die to car wrecks every year in the US than are killed with firearms (both legally and illegally), and that knives result in more serious injuries than firearms. However, you have no fear of watching a baseball game (even though baseball bats are one of the most common murder weapons) and likely think little of carrying a pocket knife, all the while driving one of the top causes of death (a car) on the way to work.
Quite literally, guns are one of the least-used mechanisms for loss of life and limb in the US. If you're truly concerned about guns, you should start by removing the items from your life listed above.
Pred4tor is quite right - it's an irrational fear based on lack of exposure and a lack of true logical thinking.
Sure, if you want to just blatantly ignore usage rates for baseballs, hammers, automobiles (some spend almost a third of their life in a motorized vehicle of some kind), access to knives, and all kinds of mitigating factors.
Now I'm not at all saying per time/usage, guns are the most dangerous things ever. But they might be. I lack the data to say.
And in any case, your assertion that more guns means a safer country is, for lack of a better word, imbecilic. It flagrantly ignores any actual data, all holes in your logic, and evidence to the contrary, all in favor of this image of this magical land where bad guys are gunned down on the street corner before they can do anything.
And holy toejam, have you considered the race factor? The black community has been on edge already as of late. You know Golly-geen well there's some people out there that would take advantage of your wild west land to kill blacks for racially motivated reasons. Nevermind blatant racism, what if there's more Fergusons? And it's a lot more likely, considering it was a cop with real legal authority.
Besides that, you're arguing like preventable deaths are just part of life and nobody should lose and sleep over them. Sure cars are more dangerous overall (I personally feel we need to do something about that one too), but you've as much as said you want wider access to firearms on the grounds that any extra deaths are a drop in the bucket.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 10:42:19 AM
That's actually not true. Most states allow for criminal prosecution (many times felony charges) and revoking of firearm carry and/or ownership rights for violating a "no weapons" policy.
Didn't know that, but then I'm usually not toting guns around, and I never drink coffee at Starbucks so...
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 10:50:52 AM
Shouldn't it be? Never mind legalities, or anything in the Constitution that may or may not say anything about this. What I'm asking is, shouldn't you be wondering why that guy is strolling down the street with an assault rifle?
I'd be wondering that if he were carrying a sword, or a bow and arrows, and I'd bet even money you would to. Just because it's a gun doesn't mean it's immune from criticism and questioning.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Someguy63 on May 22, 2015, 10:54:59 AM
Do you own one? I have the impression. What would I do with an assault rifle in public? Use stray animals and people as target practice or just have it so I look scary?
Firstly, actual "assault rifles" were greatly restricted from ownership in 1968 and banned in 1986. The only "assault rifles" in private ownership now are those registered prior to 1986, and those are in the ballpark of $20,000-50,000, or more. So no, there is no such thing as a regular guy walking around with an "assault rifle."
The rifle you're referring to is literally no different than a hunting rifle - it just "looks" scary. Now that we're cleared up on that...
You could be killed instantly from a collision while driving. And according to statistics, you're much, much, much more likely to have that happen to you than you are to be killed while encountering 100 open carriers. Your fear is literally quite irrational.
That's actually not true. Most states allow for criminal prosecution (many times felony charges) and revoking of firearm carry and/or ownership rights for violating a "no weapons" policy.
The reason to carry a hunting rifle in public? And about car accidents, they are just accidents, least usually. When you hear of a shooting how often do you here the news anchors saying "There was a massive shooting accident today in XYZ, reports indicate 12 victims have been hospitalized"
Not much, now is it?
I have more reason to fear dying by someone's intention than my or someone else's mistake. Would feel worse to be shot by some idiot who felt he wanted to take a hunting weapon to the town square.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skuzzy on May 22, 2015, 10:57:14 AM
That's a different matter. Starbucks is well within their rights to deny service to anyone breaking their rules and dismissing them from their property. However, violating Starbucks rules is not violating the law. It's just rude.
Bring a gun into a store, and a customer isn't likely breaking the law. Ask someone with a gun to leave, and a business isn't likely violating anyone's rights. Refuse to leave when asked, then you could be breaking the law, gun or not.
Actually, in Texas, it is law. If a business posts the specific poster prohibiting guns to be carried within their place of business, said person can be arrested for carrying in that place of business.
The Starbuck's at the corner, where I live, has that sign posted, as do most business establishments I venture into.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skyyr on May 22, 2015, 11:12:52 AM
Do you own one? I have the impression. What would I do with an assault rifle in public? Use stray animals and people as target practice or just have it so I look scary?
The reason to carry a hunting rifle in public? And about car accidents, they are just accidents, least usually. When you hear of a shooting how often do you here the news anchors saying "There was a massive shooting accident today in XYZ, reports indicate 12 victims have been hospitalized"
Not much, now is it?
I have more reason to fear dying by someone's intention than my or someone else's mistake. Would feel worse to be shot by some idiot who felt he wanted to take a hunting weapon to the town square.
Yet again, your arguments are all based on fear. A gun that is hidden is no different than a gun that is openly viewable; the only difference is you don't know it's there, which is honestly a fairly childish approach to life in general. Object permanence is something most children learn within the first two years of life - whether you can see a gun or not does not change what it is capable of.
Therefore, your argument really isn't about guns, it's about your fear of knowing there are things that can harm you.
Carrying guns openly is perfectly normal in the majority of the world - our Western idealization of society is the minority.
Guns save plenty of lives. The problem is the MSM tends to not showcase those stories as they don't fit into the "guns are scary and evil" agenda: http://www.gunssavelives.net
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 11:15:08 AM
Shouldn't it be? Never mind legalities, or anything in the Constitution that may or may not say anything about this. What I'm asking is, shouldn't you be wondering why that guy is strolling down the street with an assault rifle?
I'd be wondering that if he were carrying a sword, or a bow and arrows, and I'd bet even money you would to. Just because it's a gun doesn't mean it's immune from criticism and questioning.
Do you own one? I have the impression. What would I do with an assault rifle in public? Use stray animals and people as target practice or just have it so I look scary?
I'll answer both of you in one go as both your questions are related. No I haven't owned an assault rifle for some time now, and never in the States. I did some business in Syria a few years ago, before the whole place turned to sheit. Without going into too much detail, carrying guns there was perfectly normal and no one asked why you had an AK over your shoulder or a pistol visibly holstered. They rarely even took notice. It was normal. Everyone just assumed you had your reasons and a lot of people were visibly armed. The family I was staying with lived a couple of hours drive outside Damascus and every time they went into town they took an AK with them. Just in case... and they owed some people money lol.
So if I see someone walking down the street carrying an assault rifle, which I rarely do these days to be honest, I might take notice, but it wouldn't bother me. And it shouldn't scare anyone. There is no rational reason for it to be scary unless you've PO'ed some really bad people and know you're a target, or the person is otherwise behaving in a threatening manner.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 11:18:19 AM
Whoever took this did a good job at mitigating the idea of carrying this type of weapon in public. I mean look at it the guy has a smile on his face and Oreos in his hand, to make him look harmless. You don't see how they use the friendly-looking guy to hide the dangerous potential of the weapon?
Now put an Arabic man in the pic with the gun how would your view change? If not you the general public? It's brilliant how people know how to attempt and work your interpretations of things.
@Skyyr I looked it up and was surprised to see that Switzerland had the 3rd highest guns per capita in the world.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 11:29:56 AM
Scary? Not particularly. Does your local whole foods come under attack on a regular enough basis you feel you might need a rifle to defend yourself there? Starting to think some peoples' shopping experiences vary widely from mine.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Someguy63 on May 22, 2015, 11:30:47 AM
Yet again, your arguments are all based on fear. A gun that is hidden is no different than a gun that is openly viewable; the only difference is you don't know it's there, which is honestly a fairly childish approach to life in general. Object permanence is something most children learn within the first two years of life - whether you can see a gun or not does not change what it is capable of.
Therefore, your argument really isn't about guns, it's about your fear of knowing there are things that can harm you.
Carrying guns openly is perfectly normal in the majority of the world - our Western idealization of society is the minority.
Guns save plenty of lives. The problem is the MSM tends to not showcase those stories as they don't fit into the "guns are scary and evil" agenda: http://www.gunssavelives.net
If you think of the nature of our evolution and social habits of humans and other species you will know that to carry a weapon openly in public possibly suggests an assertive dominance or even aggression over the other specimen in the area.
That is how fear has evolved. It is natural to have those that fear. And I have every right to fear because I don't know every madman, idiot and such that could be out there. Despite whether the general idea is that "he won't do anything to harm me"
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 11:31:31 AM
Now put an Arabic man in the pic with the gun how would your view change? If not you the general public? It's brilliant how people know how to attempt and work your interpretations of things.
Well, I'm not a racist. I can't speak for the general public, but that's kind of the issue here. Does the general public have the right to dictate behavior based solely on irrational fears? Is that right?
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 11:33:49 AM
Well, I'm not a racist. I can't speak for the general public, but that's kind of the issue here. Does the general public have the right to dictate behavior based solely on irrational fears? Is that right?
Happens all the time. Take any controversial topic, there is a sizable portion of people who stand one way or the other based on irrationalitly.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 11:38:26 AM
Scary? Not particularly. Does your local whole foods come under attack on a regular enough basis you feel you might need a rifle to defend yourself there? Starting to think some peoples' shopping experiences vary widely from mine.
Wiley.
Probably not. But again, that's not the issue here. The issue is whether seeing a gun should distress people to the point of collectively limiting other people's freedoms.
Did anyone notice that the woman in that picture is also carrying? You just don't see the rifle as clearly behind her body. Why is concealed carry more "acceptable" than open carry? Just because you don't see the weapon? Out of sight out of mind?
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Someguy63 on May 22, 2015, 11:38:54 AM
Well, I'm not a racist. I can't speak for the general public, but that's kind of the issue here. Does the general public have the right to dictate behavior based solely on irrational fears? Is that right?
No, not if the fear was irrational. But in this case...
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Someguy63 on May 22, 2015, 11:39:37 AM
Probably not. But again, that's not the issue here. The issue is whether seeing a gun should distress people to the point of collectively limiting other people's freedoms.
Did anyone notice that the woman in that picture is also carrying? You just don't see the rifle as clearly behind her body. Why is concealed carry more "acceptable" than open carry? Just because you don't see the weapon? Out of sight out of mind?
If you think of the nature of our evolution and social habits of humans and other species you will know that to carry a weapon openly in public possibly suggests an assertive dominance or even aggression over the other specimen in the area.
That is how fear has evolved. It is natural to have those that fear. And I have every right to fear because I don't know every madman, idiot and such that could be out there. Despite whether the general idea is that "he won't do anything to harm me"
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 11:45:01 AM
Probably not. But again, that's not the issue here. The issue is whether seeing a gun should distress people to the point of collectively limiting other people's freedoms.
The issue is whether or not it DOES distress people. Doesn't matter whether it should or not.
As to concealed vs open, bluntly put yes, out of sight means it's not an issue. You've got it available without announcing to the world you've got a weapon and making yourself a target.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Someguy63 on May 22, 2015, 11:53:39 AM
If you think of the nature of our evolution and social habits of humans and other species you will know that to carry a weapon openly in public possibly suggests an assertive dominance or even aggression over the other specimen in the area.
That is how fear has evolved. It is natural to have those that fear. And I have every right to fear because I don't know every madman, idiot and such that could be out there. Despite whether the general idea is that "he won't do anything to harm me"
It is ironic that you quote evolution and social habits as a argument against carrying guns. You do realize that survival of the fittest and outclassing one's competitors are some of the main factors that dictate survival according to evolution, right? Every one of those arguments is pro-gun.
Correlation does not imply causation, however, and that is not why carrying weapons is or should be allowed. It is done for a much deeper reason seated in personal liberty.
I noticed you ended your argument that you have "every right to fear" - please show me where evolution cared once for anything's right to fear. ;)
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 11:58:36 AM
The issue is whether or not it DOES distress people. Doesn't matter whether it should or not.
As to concealed vs open, bluntly put yes, out of sight means it's not an issue. You've got it available without announcing to the world you've got a weapon and making yourself a target.
Wiley.
Your personal rights end at the tip of your neighbor's nose. Your "right" to fear does not allow your fear to supersede their right to own a weapon, just as their (hypothetical) right to fear your ability to reproduce (and potentially be a rapist) does not supersede your right to have and raise a family.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skyyr on May 22, 2015, 12:02:21 PM
No, not if the fear was irrational. But in this case...
Yet again, pure irony. You realize that guns are among the less-used weapons of violent crimes, correct? Yet you fear them because they could be used in a crime, while you are fully unafraid of cars, bats, screwdrivers, and so forth.
That meets the very definition of irrational.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 12:02:33 PM
True, but that's kind of a circular argument. Akin to guns are illegal because they're scary - guns are scary because they're illegal.
In this case it is not fear. Like I said before, if someone carrying a gun has no respect for the rights of the business owner, then I am going to err to caution that they probably have little respect for me, or anyone around them, as well.
I would call it simple prudence, not fear.
There are legitimate reasons a business may not want guns on the premises. Bars, are an extreme, but shining example of a business which is prudent in not allowing firearms inside.
Business owners also want to be absolved of any liability. If the insurance company is going to raise rates based on allowing guns to be carried, well,..there you go.
Fear is not the only motivator in making these decisions.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skyyr on May 22, 2015, 12:06:54 PM
In this case it is no fear. Like I said before, if someone carrying a gun has no respect for the rights of the business owner, then I am going to err to caution that they probably have little repect for me, or anyone around them, as well.
I would call it simple prudence, not fear.
There are legitimate reasons a business may not want guns on the premises. Bars, are an extreme, but shining example of a business which is prudent in not allowing firearms inside.
I agree with this.
Also, the idea of owning firearms, Constitutionally, is based on personal liberty. What then does it say when a gun owner insists on taking his firearms onto private property that has banned such weapons? It's a two-way street. You can't argue for gun personal rights and then ignore the right to others' personal property.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Someguy63 on May 22, 2015, 12:07:12 PM
It is ironic that you quote evolution and social habits as a argument against carrying guns. You do realize that survival of the fittest and outclassing one's competitors are some of the main factors that dictate survival according to evolution, right? Every one of those arguments is pro-gun.
Correlation does not imply causation, however, and that is not why carrying weapons is or should be allowed. It is done for a much deeper reason seated in personal liberty.
I noticed you ended your argument that you have "every right to fear" - please show me where evolution cared once for anything's right to fear. ;)
No. I didn't mention our survival through evolution. Look at different species and their methods of asserting dominance or aggresiveness, aka, a threat to other species amongst them? It litters species both extinct and in existence.
Fear is defined by nature as threat to one's existence or that of which the specimen exists with? For example some species may like to appear bigger to their predator, and what does the predator do? Back off in fear of facing something bigger than it.
Never once did I mention that evolution gives a crap about who is scared. The point was to evaluate why the hell people are scared of guns being carried visible to those around them.
I just used evolution as a timeline to write some notes under to support my point.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 12:07:45 PM
We are in total agreement on that Skuzzy.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skyyr on May 22, 2015, 12:09:32 PM
No. I didn't mention our survival through evolution. Look at different species and their methods of asserting dominance or aggresiveness, aka, a threat to other species amongst them? It litters species both extinct and in existence.
Fear is defined by nature as threat to one's existence or that of which the specimen exists with? For example some species may like to appear bigger to their predator, and what does the predator do? Back off in fear of facing something bigger than it.
Never once did I mention that evolution gives a crap about who is scared. The point was to evaluate why the hell people are scared of guns being carried visible to those around them.
I just used evolution as a timeline to write some notes under to support my point.
Many people are afraid of clowns - the official name for the condition is coulrophobia. Is that a threat to their existence?
Guns are not one of the leading instruments of death or violence in the US (contrary to the media, as you can pull the actual violence statistics from FBI.gov), therefore to fear them more than cars is, once again, quite literally irrational.
Your argument just fell apart.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Someguy63 on May 22, 2015, 12:11:48 PM
Many people are afraid of clowns - the official name for the condition is coulrophobia. Is that a threat to their existence?
Guns are not one of the leading instruments of death or violence in the US (contrary to the media, as you can pull the actual violence statistics from FBI.gov), therefore to fear them more than cars is, once again, quite literally irrational.
Your argument just fell apart.
You missed the point.
Name the clown in an African grassland food chain. There is none. You're using a product that is unnatural to the origin from which I stated fear came.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 12:13:26 PM
Your personal rights end at the tip of your neighbor's nose. Your "right" to fear does not allow your fear to supersede their right to own a weapon, just as their (hypothetical) right to fear your ability to reproduce (and potentially be a rapist) does not supersede your right to have and raise a family.
Cool. Why can't you own an assault rifle or an armed vehicle then? They'd be a lot more useful for personal defense than a pistol.
Why not have personal ownership of explosive devices? Your "right" to fear shouldn't supersede your neighbor's right to own such a weapon, right? You never know when you might need a claymore.
Name the clown in an African grassland food chain. There is none. You're using a product that is unnatural to the origin from which I stated fear came.
First off, guns do not "hunt" people and most certainly it cannot eat them. I'm not sure where you're at in your scholarly studies, but a gun cannot hunt someone and eat them.
You just defined fear as:
Quote
Fear is defined by nature as threat to one's existence
Statistically speaking, guns are not a threat to one's existence. If guns are still to be considered a threat to one's existence, then cars, fast food, smoking, power tools, and many other items are even bigger threats to one's existence.
Yet again, your argument is quite literally irrational.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skyyr on May 22, 2015, 12:18:26 PM
So you're telling me you can drive down to your local Walmart in a Humvee with a loaded M2 in back and a crate of grenades on the seat beside you?
I was not aware of that. What happens to you if you use any of it?
Wiley.
Don't try to twist the argument, Wiley. You said they couldn't be owned. Just because you can't purchase them at Walmart does not mean you can't own them.
That being said, I love Walmart. Guess what I did buy last time I went to Walmart? 3,500 rounds of 9mm. I can also buy dynamite at my local co-op. ;)
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Someguy63 on May 22, 2015, 12:20:32 PM
First off, guns do not "hunt" people and most certainly it cannot eat them. I'm not sure where you're at in your scholarly studies, but a gun cannot hunt someone and eat them.
You just defined fear as:
Statistically speaking, guns are not a threat to one's existence. If guns are still to be considered a threat to one's existence, then cars, fast food, smoking, power tools, and many other items are even bigger threats to one's existence.
Yet again, your argument is quite literally irrational.
You are still missing it. I don't call a gun a living creature.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 12:20:59 PM
skyyer don't forget all the shootings that have happened in Switzerland where people are required to have assault weapons. including the one a few days ago. neighbor got shot went he went to investigate when he heard shots.
semp
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skyyr on May 22, 2015, 12:27:29 PM
So you're telling me you can drive down to your local Walmart in a Humvee with a loaded M2 in back and a crate of grenades on the seat beside you?
I was not aware of that. What happens to you if you use any of it?
Wiley.
People drive down the street with M2's and such on their trucks at a decently regular rate, and it becomes increasingly more common the further west you are. Is it a very common sight? No, but it's not something that causes panic either.
You can use such devices on private property, designated public property (areas where shooting is allowed), and properly-equipped ranges.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 12:31:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw6eeAhU5-Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuOatfby57U
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 12:40:50 PM
People drive down the street with M2's and such on their trucks at a decently regular rate, and it becomes increasingly more common the further west you are. Is it a very common sight? No, but it's not something that causes panic either.
You can use such devices on private property, designated public property (areas where shooting is allowed), and properly-equipped ranges.
So... not as a weapon, only for target practice in designated areas.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 12:44:55 PM
You are not allowed to fire any weapon in public unless you're legally defending yourself or others, so obviously you're shooting these guns at ranges. That doesn't mean that you can't use a legally owned machine gun in self defense if that situation should arise. Though you'd have to be mighty high or stupid to try anything against a guy with an M2 on his pickup...
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 12:49:38 PM
You are not allowed to fire any weapon in public unless you're legally defending yourself or others, so obviously you're shooting these guns at ranges. That doesn't mean that you can't use a legally owned machine gun in self defense if that situation should arise. Though you'd have to be mighty high or stupid to try anything against a guy with an M2 on his pickup...
So just to be clear, you'd be perfectly ok sitting in the local coffee shop in line with the guys involved in a knife fight when the guy in the parking lot decides to break it up with his M2 and stack of grenades?
Cool. Glad I don't live in your world.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 12:54:27 PM
I don't think anyone lives in that world except Mad Max, but that never stopped anyone from having irrational fears of situations that don't happen in real life. Some people are afraid of birds... I guess that's Hitchcock's fault.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 12:58:14 PM
I don't think anyone lives in that world except Mad Max, but that never stopped anyone from having irrational fears of situations that don't happen in real life. Some people are afraid of birds... I guess that's Hitchcock's fault.
Where did I say I thought it would happen? I'm just asking, would you see a guy open up on someone with an M2 on a city street and your first thought would be, "Oh good, a law abiding citizen is exercising his right to self defense. I am sure all will work out well."
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 01:12:59 PM
I would probably take cover. The motivations behind or legality of the machine gun fire would only play a very secondary role in my thought process at the time. Now it's my turn for silly hypothetical scenarios: If an M2 machine gun owner on his way to a gun range has a flat tire on the highway, when he is suddenly and unexpectedly attacked by Mexican bandits without any stinking badges. Is he not fully justified in using the machine gun to defend himself?
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: NatCigg on May 22, 2015, 01:20:18 PM
the paranoia seems to be with the gun owners; and the exaggerated fear that many people want to murder in a flashy way to get noticed. this is not normal. in the hollywood version of dreamland you might be able to save the day with your gun, and sure it can do things that not much else can in certain situations, but in reality your more likely to invite unnecessary problems your way by carrying, let alone brandishing a gun. History shows we have been through this before. Everyone carrying and flashing guns creates more problems. Texas will reap what it sows. Id like to see the facts but Ive heard more gun stories gone wrong since beginning of the 2000 era gun culture paranoia. More flashing pistol stories, more shootouts, and more bullony. The whole story is crap, this new push for a open carry law is built off paranoia, and the gun culture is winding itself up for a long painful lesson.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 01:23:23 PM
Predator: Morally, yes.
Do you feel he should also be able to use his stack of legally purchased explosives? How about in an urban area? If not, why not?
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: guncrasher on May 22, 2015, 01:25:12 PM
I would probably take cover. The motivations behind or legality of the machine gun fire would only play a very secondary role in my thought process at the time. Now it's my turn for silly hypothetical scenarios: If an M2 machine gun owner on his way to a gun range has a flat tire on the highway, when he is suddenly and unexpectedly attacked by Mexican bandits without any stinking badges. Is he not fully justified in using the machine gun to defend himself?
what if the Mexican. bandits have water pistols?
semp
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Thruster on May 22, 2015, 01:26:59 PM
"Is he not fully justified in using the machine gun"
Probly depends on where you are. Back home they call that target practice. I think they still have a Boy Scout badge for it. But they have to be in season.
Someone mentioned earlier that it's gonna primarily benefit the CCW carrier when he needs to be less than discrete. Try packin' a 1911 IWB all day at Six Flags....in July.
Remember we're talking Texas here. With ever increasing exceptions they define civility and reserve. Respecting the weak and feeble is still considered a virtue for the most part. Nobody's gonna scare little kids if they can help it. But it's nice to not have to worry about a quick innocuous flash of iron turning into another Ruby Ridge. Little doubt that this will be a non issue save for the odd Godless yankee or ill bred spermatoid wandering around tryin to prove something.
As far as "no firearms allowed" signage. Seems like that's a parking lot I'd cruise if I was shopping for a new throwdown piece. I'd find somewhere else to shop. I figure many others would too.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Volron on May 22, 2015, 01:28:04 PM
A question: Are there not exceptions in regards to a posted "no weapon on premises"? It is to my understanding (which may very well be incorrect) that a federal agent is to have their weapon on their persons at all times (IE: FBI, NSA, etc). :headscratch:
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 01:30:09 PM
Do you feel he should also be able to use his stack of legally purchased explosives? How about in an urban area? If not, why not?
Wiley.
I have made a personal choice to never blame a person for saving his own life regardless of the consequences, but this discussion has moved so far into the absurd that I think you'll have to ask someone else.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 01:32:39 PM
I have made a personal choice to never blame a person for saving his own life regardless of the consequences, but this discussion has moved so far into the absurd that I think you'll have to ask someone else.
So by that, collateral damage is irrelevant. That's certainly an opinion you're entitled to.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 01:35:20 PM
You're putting words in my mouth. Let me ask you this: If the police is in a firefight with some criminals, who is responsible for the "collateral damage"?
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: guncrasher on May 22, 2015, 01:39:39 PM
Depends... Do they have those orange caps/muzzles? Do they look real. Are the Mexican bandits the size of children?
yes they do have orange caps and they look like water pistols. now don't you wish he had been better prepared and bring his super soaker when he goes shooting. at the range.
and dont forget to bring. at least 2 gallons of water. never know how many Mexican. bandits he may find.
semp
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: guncrasher on May 22, 2015, 01:42:47 PM
You're putting words in my mouth. Let me ask you this: If the police is in a firefight with some criminals, who is responsible for the "collateral damage"?
the police. if police decides to just open up with no disregard. for innocent bystanders.
semp
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 01:43:38 PM
yes they do have orange caps and they look like water pistols. now don't you wish he had been better prepared and bring his super soaker when he goes shooting. at the range.
and dont forget to bring. at least 2 gallons of water. never know how many Mexican. bandits he may find.
semp
Very true.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 01:46:17 PM
the police. if police decides to just open up with no disregard. for innocent bystanders.
semp
You seem to have a total disregard for proper punctuation. Would I be justified in defending the English language with the super soaker or the M2? Or dynamite!
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 22, 2015, 01:47:43 PM
You can shoot on some public grounds in GA. We use to go outside of lakeland just east of Valdosta where there was tons of land and not many people around. It was perfectly legal to go shoot out there. Shot a whole assortment of different weapons out there.
The sad reality is that we need guns for personal protection of intruders, a militia takeover, and from domestic attacks. All of which could happen, but statistically speaking they are not likely. They realization that gun deaths and crime have dramatically decreased over the last 15 years is something you probably won't hear to often in the media, their goal is to scare you and cause turmoil/arguements, not make you feel better.
I actually think conceal carry is okay under law and oath that you will be responsible and take the required courses to obtain such a weapon. Places that ban guns are much more likely to be prone to an attack from gangsters/terrorist who carry guns illigally, while the community cannot do anything to fight back.
Under the liberties of freedom and justice, most people who are carry guns legally cause no troubles to anyone. I'd sure feel a lot safer if some dipsh*t robbers where scared to rob my store because they knew I had a gun under the desk. We don't need more security or watchmen in this country unless they are protecting our schools. We need people who aren't afraid to fight for freedom or to use their gun to combat robbers/terrorist, and holding guns means that freedom is a lot harder to take away.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 01:48:19 PM
'Regardless of the consequences' is pretty hard to read any other way, but ok. What Semp said, about the police.
You likely would have an issue with a guy breaking up a knife fight with a stick of dynamite, because it's stupid.
Using it on a crowd of looters bent on breaking into your house would likely be a more reasonable use of it.
But can you honestly say a guy walking down the street with a live, capped, ready to go stick of dynamite on his belt wouldn't at least raise an eyebrow? The crowd of looters could happen, same as the need to defend yourself could happen. Why is one ok and not the other?
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 01:56:12 PM
I'll just refrain from answering your questions until you decide to leave hypothetical unicorn-rainbow-dynamite land and get back to reality. However, your line of argumentation is typical of gun control discussions in general, because you cannot support an irrational argument with anything but hypothetical constructs since they invariably do not relate to anything that happens in real life.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FX1 on May 22, 2015, 01:59:46 PM
Well i decided to go with a wheel gun instead of a 1911 or 2011. I have been itching for a new revolver for some time. Ordered a SW 986 and having my gun smith do a lazer engraving of the ranch brand and also have him Hard Chrome and custom Ivory Grips. My father brought back some ivory for on of his hunting trips to Africa before i was born. I have been waiting to use it for something special.. More than likely i will keep it iron sights but i do have a trijicon rmr that i need to mount on something. I am not a big fan of major engraving but with the ivory and hard chrome it will pop.
Wait time is going to be 6 months to a year. After that i will take it to my holster man in llano and have him do a traditional western holster and belt. Moon clips pouches in front of course...
I will never walk down the street with this set up but it will look good in the safe and be a fun gun to shoot some poppers.
So... not as a weapon, only for target practice in designated areas.
Wiley.
You seem to enjoy trying to create strawman arguments. Your original statement was that those items could not be owned whatsoever, so regardless of how you try to paint them as being relegated to target practice, uncommon, or otherwise ineffectual, you were wrong. Period.
That being said, you can still legally use them - even in self defense - in a majority of the states. So yes, if Lil Mojeal decides to try to rob someone at gunpoint in a grocery store parking lot, and a guy who legally owns an M2 drives up, he could legally use the weapon in several states, just like he could use his own concealed carry weapon. No, not all states (as the laws for self-defense and imminent danger have different definitions), but a majority of them. My state (Tennessee) is one of those states.
But, even with that being said, using any weapon in self-defense is a strawman argument in and of itself, as the right to bear arms was never about individual self-defense from criminals, but the preservation of liberty as it stems from an armed populace.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 02:11:54 PM
You seem to enjoy trying to create strawman arguments. Your original statement was that those items could not be owned whatsoever, so regardless of how you try to paint them, you were wrong. Period.
Ugh... what I actually meant, was 'carry'. But yeah, that's what the post said.
It's a completely pointless discussion in any case.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 02:17:40 PM
Who wants to carry a .50 cal? It weighs like 80 pounds.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2015, 02:22:10 PM
Finally, some sage advice. Looks like Wiley is coming over to the dark side!
LOL dude, I never once said I was in favor of disarming people.
The base it started from is, I think open carry is stupid. I'm not 'afraid' of it. I just think it's only slightly less stupid than walking around with military hardware or a stick of dynamite on your belt.
Both have legitimate purposes, but the odds of needing them at your local grocery store are laughably infinitesimal when compared to the BS it generates in the current society.
No more, no less.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Mister Fork on May 22, 2015, 02:42:00 PM
Swiss also has mandatory military service for young males and voluntary for women (most actually do sign up) so chances are most have professional military weapons training. Including the two women on that bicycle. Just saying.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 02:43:23 PM
I looked it up and was surprised to see that Switzerland had the 3rd highest guns per capita in the world.
Many western countries have highly armed populations. The reason America has more guns per capita is in my experience a result of the typical American gun owner owning several guns, while say a typical German gun owner perhaps has only one or two. It would be interesting to see some statistics on armed households or gun owners per capita which would give a better indication of how armed a population is, but I can't find anything on that.
You can shoot on some public grounds in GA. We use to go outside of lakeland just east of Valdosta where there was tons of land and not many people around. It was perfectly legal to go shoot out there. Shot a whole assortment of different weapons out there.
The sad reality is that we need guns for personal protection of intruders, a militia takeover, and from domestic attacks. All of which could happen, but statistically speaking they are not likely. They realization that gun deaths and crime have dramatically decreased over the last 15 years is something you probably won't hear to often in the media, their goal is to scare you and cause turmoil/arguements, not make you feel better.
I actually think conceal carry is okay under law and oath that you will be responsible and take the required courses to obtain such a weapon. Places that ban guns are much more likely to be prone to an attack from gangsters/terrorist who carry guns illigally, while the community cannot do anything to fight back.
Under the liberties of freedom and justice, most people who are carry guns legally cause no troubles to anyone. I'd sure feel a lot safer if some dipsh*t robbers where scared to rob my store because they knew I had a gun under the desk. We don't need more security or watchmen in this country unless they are protecting our schools. We need people who aren't afraid to fight for freedom or to use their gun to combat robbers/terrorist, and holding guns means that freedom is a lot harder to take away.
Lol, you guys really do want the old wild west back. When everyone was totin' a shootin' iron', and no man had to explain hisself to no big city lawyars and them sherrif and his deputies.
The fact is that if a militia tries to take over your neck of the woods, you yourself are boned. Your neighbors are boned. If a group has the wherewithal to make a power play, they'll have more than enough firepower and manpower to casually brush aside any half-trained disorganized gun enthusiasts.
Terrorism in the Western world tends to be bombs, not gunfights in the streets. Most shootings happen with people that are deranged, any guns will prove no deterrent.
ISIS will not be swarming over the border from Mexico and Canada in the next few weeks, and certainly would not be successful enough that you would ever have the chance to be involved. They would be met by M1A2's, F-15E's, and AH1's and AH-64's, not some redneck with a rifle.
Your gun is a false sense of security, no less than keeping it out of sight provides a sense of peace for the general public.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: guncrasher on May 22, 2015, 02:44:23 PM
A question: Are there not exceptions in regards to a posted "no weapon on premises"? It is to my understanding (which may very well be incorrect) that a federal agent is to have their weapon on their persons at all times (IE: FBI, NSA, etc). :headscratch:
Law enforcement officials are exempt.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Oldman731 on May 22, 2015, 02:51:42 PM
If a group has the wherewithal to make a power play, they'll have more than enough firepower and manpower to casually brush aside any half-trained disorganized gun enthusiasts.
Clearly you never saw "Red Dawn."
Hey, it could happen.
- oldman
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Chilli on May 22, 2015, 02:53:39 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 03:06:44 PM
Your gun is a false sense of security, no less than keeping it out of sight provides a sense of peace for the general public.
Perhaps you should tell that to all the women who successfully use guns to defend themselves against rape. In 1979 the Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed, but when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful. According to the "Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology" Americans use guns to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2.5 million times a year. 6,500 times a day, or once every 13 seconds.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 22, 2015, 03:14:35 PM
Well i decided to go with a wheel gun instead of a 1911 or 2011. I have been itching for a new revolver for some time. Ordered a SW 986 and having my gun smith do a lazer engraving of the ranch brand and also have him Hard Chrome and custom Ivory Grips. My father brought back some ivory for on of his hunting trips to Africa before i was born. I have been waiting to use it for something special.. More than likely i will keep it iron sights but i do have a trijicon rmr that i need to mount on something. I am not a big fan of major engraving but with the ivory and hard chrome it will pop.
Wait time is going to be 6 months to a year. After that i will take it to my holster man in llano and have him do a traditional western holster and belt. Moon clips pouches in front of course...
I will never walk down the street with this set up but it will look good in the safe and be a fun gun to shoot some poppers.
Those custom shop Smiths are wonderful!!!! Your gonna love it......trigger work they do is as good and smooth as my IPSC 1911 builder does. He did at trigger job on a 686 for me, and the Perf.Ctr Smith I shot had a trigger just as nice
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Lusche on May 22, 2015, 03:32:43 PM
And here I am, sitting on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean and am looking at this thread over a cultural gap that's even larger...(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/fdphotos/gifs/popcorn2.gif)
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 22, 2015, 03:47:56 PM
And here I am, sitting on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean and am looking at this thread over a cultural gap that's even larger...(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/fdphotos/gifs/popcorn2.gif)
:aok Im in on that. If its for national security its seems a little soft with hand guns. My dad had an H & K G3 in the basement, its a better tool for defence.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 03:57:43 PM
AK-fyra? or whatever you guys call it over there. Very nice battle rifle.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 22, 2015, 04:00:37 PM
The big difference between US and most Eurpean countries is the types of weapons people own. Here its mainly funting rifles, hand guns are only allowed for competition and even then its hard to get a licence. Home guard members in most countries keep their weapon at home so a lot of European countries has more assault rifles in private possession than the US. But people dont carry guns unless they are hunting or on a military excersise. Bringing a rifle to the grocery store isnt about safety imo (If I were a bad guy i would shoot the guy with a rifle first) and im not really sure that everyone that carries a gun know hows to use it in a dangerous situation so he will prob be as dangerous as the bad guy he trying to hit.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 22, 2015, 04:01:23 PM
Bringing a rifle to the grocery store isnt about safety imo
You're right. It's about the right, the freedom to do so. And unless you live at the store, it could be about safety/security/hunting/target practice or a hundred other perfectly legal activities at another location after you leave the store. For example you're in the store buying soft drinks and snacks on your way to the gun range, and you're not comfortable leaving the gun unattended in the parking lot.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Lusche on May 22, 2015, 04:22:33 PM
The big difference between US and most Eurpean countries is the types of weapons people own. Here its mainly funting rifles, hand guns are only allowed for competition and even then its hard to get a licence.
Just to amaze my American friends:
In my lifetime, I have never seen or heard any firearm being fired. I never had my hands on any, either. In my youth, I was member of a Schützenverein but we used air guns exclusively :lol I never have seen anyone carrying a gun in public except for uniformed police and Cash-in-transit employees. I once knew someone having a license to own some historical black powder weapons, but other than that I never knew of anyone else owning any firearms at all.
That's the strange world I'm living in :old:
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 22, 2015, 04:28:05 PM
Here it´s the opposite, there are weapons in most households and during the hunting season frequently seen. But no one carries it just for fun, and absloutley never ever carrying a loaded weapon unless u are going to use it.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skuzzy on May 22, 2015, 04:30:15 PM
Does not amaze me at all Lusche.
I have never owned a firearm as an adult. I have fired many rounds, when I was growing up, but guns have never held an interest for me.
I do not begrudge anyone owning them. I really am quite neutral on the whole gun thing.
That said, I would not allow anyone in my home carrying a gun. I would hope they would respect that.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 04:32:41 PM
In my lifetime, I have never seen or heard any firearm being fired. I never had my hands on any, either. In my youth, I was member of a Schützenverein but we used air guns exclusively :lol I never have seen anyone carrying a gun in public except for uniformed police and Cash-in-transit employees. I once knew someone having a license to own some historical black powder weapons, but other than that I never knew of anyone else owning any firearms at all.
That's the strange world I'm living in :old:
While that's an interesting cultural observation, would you be scared if you met a person having a shotgun slung over the shoulder while shopping? Obviously you'd take notice of it, but would it bother you, or would you just assume the person is going hunting or some other legal activity?
In my lifetime, I have never seen or heard any firearm being fired. I never had my hands on any, either. In my youth, I was member of a Schützenverein but we used air guns exclusively :lol I never have seen anyone carrying a gun in public except for uniformed police and Cash-in-transit employees. I once knew someone having a license to own some historical black powder weapons, but other than that I never knew of anyone else owning any firearms at all.
That's the strange world I'm living in :old:
Wow, it is amazing how powerful it feels to fire a gun. Just saying.
I never was around guns often until my last roommate. He was a conspiritor and thought the world was out to get em. I learned about and shot quite a few guns. Was a great learning experience. I'll get one in the future for safety in my house but prob won't carry one.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: WWhiskey on May 22, 2015, 04:48:51 PM
Growing up in pheasant country, I've been around guns all my life, I've hunted with 100 people or more at a time, I've had to teach a quick course in fire arm safety to folks like Lusche, no problem tho it's not a big deal for me,, I can tell if someone is getting it or not within a few minutes, I've refused a few hunts because of unsafe newbs, but I was more scared being around basic training recruits and guns than total strangers on hunts! Growing up, I rode the school bus home in the evening, I was the last stop, the bus driver would bring his shotgun with him on the bus, when we got to my house, I'd take him out pheasant hunting, when I started driving, I almost always had a rifle or shotgun in the back window of my pickup. The first time I got sprayed by buckshot was by the high school football coach! I lived in a different world, I loved every minute of it!
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Lusche on May 22, 2015, 04:54:13 PM
Obviously you'd take notice of it, but would it bother you, or would you just assume the person is going hunting or some other legal activity?
I think I would insantly assume this being a kind of paintball or pneumatic (CO2) 'toy' weapon, and that Lady being really nuts to carry it that way - which would be not only unusual, but also illegal. And there is no way anyone would be allowed to carry a real gun that way over here, even if he (or she) had the right to own one, like hunters.
A hunter is only allowed to transport his gun(s) in a locked trunk, with ammo being seperate until he reached the area where he's allowed to hunt in.
So obviously, someone walking into a store like this, or just walking around in public, is most likely to get into a lot of trouble over here ;)
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 22, 2015, 05:01:01 PM
Agree, the result would be that the police had arrested u and u will loose all guns and licences. (plus atleast a fine).
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 22, 2015, 05:03:48 PM
Sounds overly restrictive, but hey... It's not my country.
I know a lot of Europeans look at American gun culture kinda like this:
While that's an interesting cultural observation, would you be scared if you met a person having a shotgun slung over the shoulder while shopping? Obviously you'd take notice of it, but would it bother you, or would you just assume the person is going hunting or some other legal activity?
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FBKampfer on May 22, 2015, 08:21:42 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 22, 2015, 08:31:43 PM
If u are afraid of an invasion, organize a home guard like European countries (or use the NG) so u have an organisation with a command structure, supply lines etc. Its very naive to belive that a bunch of civilians with rifles can put up any resistance in a conventional war against an army. Guerilla warfare is a different thing but even then it comes with a high prize. And even then it will take quite some time before the guerillas has gained enough experience to be effective.
But as Kampfer said: In neither case is it neccessary to bring the gun to the store, there will be enough time for u to go home and get the gun before the red horde is upon u.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skyyr on May 22, 2015, 09:15:54 PM
If u are afraid of an invasion, organize a home guard like European countries (or use the NG) so u have an organisation with a command structure, supply lines etc. Its very naive to belive that a bunch of civilians with rifles can put up any resistance in a conventional war against an army.
You'd have to be suicidal to fight a conventional war with a civilian force (militia), unless you simply outnumber and outclass your enemy. The very point of the populace being armed is that conventional warfare becomes impossible, and therefore invasion becomes impossible, because every civilian encountered is likely a guerilla fighter. An armed populace is entirely a resistant force which is a deterrent to invasion and dictatorship, not a standing army. In fact, the Founder's documents state that very concept.
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." -- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 22, 2015, 09:22:17 PM
Of cource, the US should know that from Vietnam, A-stan Iraq etc. But point is that a guerilla is only effective when the enemy has won the conventional war ie occupying the land. And i guess that the plan was to stop the enemy before they did that. Guerilla war is only used when no other option is left.
But even the guerilla war can be organized, Swedish army for ex had several brigades trained for guerilla warfare in order to deny an enemy a safe zone in occupied areas.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: guncrasher on May 22, 2015, 09:27:05 PM
You'd have to be suicidal to fight a conventional war with a civilian force (militia), unless you simply outnumber and outclass your enemy. The very point of the populace being armed is that conventional warfare becomes impossible, and therefore invasion becomes impossible, because every civilian encountered is likely a guerilla fighter. An armed populace is entirely a resistant force which is a deterrent to invasion and dictatorship, not a standing army. In fact, the Founder's documents state that very concept.
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." -- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
tells you how unprepared he was, the wester united states is nothing but desert. grass wasnt widely available until after Woodstock.
semp ok skyyr btw he never said that
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 22, 2015, 09:47:13 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 22, 2015, 09:59:13 PM
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 22, 2015, 10:08:53 PM
No one belive US is going to be invaded. As for the personal safety/freedom its a matter of personal opinion and i think it has been covered. Personally im convinced that it safer to restrict guns and only allow Police etc to carry guns in public. More guns for the good guys means also more guns for the bad guys. But thats just me.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: ROC on May 22, 2015, 10:40:37 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Skyyr on May 22, 2015, 10:43:57 PM
No one belive US is going to be invaded. Personally im convinced that it safer to restrict guns and only allow Police etc to carry guns in public. More guns for the good guys means also more guns for the bad guys. But thats just me.
The only, single murder committed with a registered assault weapon since 1986 was committed by... a police officer. Police are no more "good" than anyone else, especially when considered within the context of history. For that matter, law enforcement was the chief vehicle by which genocide was enabled during WWII.
And no, more guns for the "good guys" simply means more guns for the good guys. Criminals will always have access to firearms - just look at the UK. Pistols are completely outlawed to everyone except the police and criminals still routinely obtain handguns.
Check the Revolutionary War. That was Americans fighting against a monarchy. The new world systematicly beat the best Navy in the world.
We were actually being beaten pretty soundly until training was really put in place. Late in the war, the Continental Army was actually a highly professional fighting force, and far more effective than the militias. As for their Navy, that was for all purposes entirely on the shoulders of foreign allies, like France.
Quote
Guns in America are based on your justifiable right to protection based on the freedom to control your outcome in life. Criminals use weapons in places that do permit guns. These powerful weapons must be sold to people who abide by an oath of law. These types of people are the ones who will save you in a bank robbery when they were conceal carrying and used their weapon to protect the peace.
And nobody has a problem with concealed carry, it seems.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Aspen on May 23, 2015, 12:56:42 AM
When I was 11, I would ride my bike a mile and a half to school with my shotgun in a soft case. It sat in the teacher's closet until after school when I would retrieve it and go hunting with my buddy before riding my bike back home. Only trouble it caused was when the 6th grade teacher (I was 5th) Mr Wyndica asked to take a look at it. He asked what I was using for loads and I told him "#8s 'cause its all I have left." He explained how it wasn't a good idea for pheasants and after school gave me a handful of 4's or 6's :D
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Aspen on May 23, 2015, 01:07:05 AM
One thing to note about the Revolutionary War and The War of 1812 is that private citizens owned the most powerful weapons of the day...the war ship. Privately owned ships played a big part in the wars.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: FBKampfer on May 23, 2015, 01:19:33 AM
One thing to note about the Revolutionary War and The War of 1812 is that private citizens owned the most powerful weapons of the day...the war ship. Privately owned ships played a big part in the wars.
To an extent. But it's important to remember that the Royal Navy wasn't deployed in force to the Americas, mainly because it wasn't a war that could be won on the seas, and they already had soldiers on the continent, indeed mere days marches from where most of the battles would be fought.
The main issue facing England was logistics. They needed to be reinforced, and resupplied. While ships played a role in the war, it was very minor compared to the land campaigns that took place.
Of course, Washington recognizing he only had to keep from losing the war, not necessarily win it, certainly didn't hurt us.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Someguy63 on May 23, 2015, 01:28:12 AM
To an extent. But it's important to remember that the Royal Navy wasn't deployed in force to the Americas, mainly because it wasn't a war that could be won on the seas, and they already had soldiers on the continent, indeed mere days marches from where most of the battles would be fought.
The main issue facing England was logistics. They needed to be reinforced, and resupplied. While ships played a role in the war, it was very minor compared to the land campaigns that took place.
Of course, Washington recognizing he only had to keep from losing the war, not necessarily win it, certainly didn't hurt us.
It wasn't very minor once the British had to deal with the interfering French navy. Without any help from foreign nations the rebellion wouldn't have succeeded.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Oldman731 on May 23, 2015, 09:21:45 AM
When I was 11, I would ride my bike a mile and a half to school with my shotgun in a soft case. It sat in the teacher's closet until after school when I would retrieve it and go hunting with my buddy before riding my bike back home.
Yup. Wasn't uncommon to have a show-and-tell with your first .22 or .410.
Times change.
- oldman
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 23, 2015, 10:16:08 AM
If you think its good that only the police (good guys) use guns, imagine what would happen when a dictator like hittler shows up and turns the police against your whole town and way of living. What do you do then?
Let me set up an arguement for you.
A. Guns will never disapear from society B. If you make guns illegal only people who want to do illegal/immoral things will find a gun. C. Therefore, the right to protect yourself against criminals/invaders/military state/ so on and so forth, becomes broken.
This is exactly what you see in the middle East and Africa right now as we speak. This is why people of those countries get trained from our troops, get a gun, and protect them themselves from those insane monster squads trying to cause terror.
In America, now that people have the right own guns. We don't deal with that type od BS in our country.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 23, 2015, 10:21:04 AM
The only, single murder committed with a registered assault weapon since 1986 was committed by... a police officer. Police are no more "good" than anyone else, especially when considered within the context of history. For that matter, law enforcement was the chief vehicle by which genocide was enabled during WWII.
And no, more guns for the "good guys" simply means more guns for the good guys. Criminals will always have access to firearms - just look at the UK. Pistols are completely outlawed to everyone except the police and criminals still routinely obtain handguns.
When I was 11, I would ride my bike a mile and a half to school with my shotgun in a soft case. It sat in the teacher's closet until after school when I would retrieve it and go hunting with my buddy before riding my bike back home. Only trouble it caused was when the 6th grade teacher (I was 5th) Mr Wyndica asked to take a look at it. He asked what I was using for loads and I told him "#8s 'cause its all I have left." He explained how it wasn't a good idea for pheasants and after school gave me a handful of 4's or 6's :D
You had an awesome childhood! :aok
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 23, 2015, 11:31:49 AM
Just heard the Finns have put almost a million reservists on notice. Assigning them to military units and such. What does our resident Finns know about this? :uhoh
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: PR3D4TOR on May 23, 2015, 11:35:23 AM
We were actually being beaten pretty soundly until training was really put in place. Late in the war, the Continental Army was actually a highly professional fighting force, and far more effective than the militias. As for their Navy, that was for all purposes entirely on the shoulders of foreign allies, like France.
And nobody has a problem with concealed carry, it seems.
I certainly DO NOT have a "problem" with CCW permits..presently over 12 million in this country. Seems line the "anti-gun" groups are fighting a losing battle...as are the criminals. :banana:
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: guncrasher on May 23, 2015, 12:58:25 PM
The only, single murder committed with a registered assault weapon since 1986 was committed by... a police officer. Police are no more "good" than anyone else, especially when considered within the context of history. For that matter, law enforcement was the chief vehicle by which genocide was enabled during WWII.
And no, more guns for the "good guys" simply means more guns for the good guys. Criminals will always have access to firearms - just look at the UtyK. Pistols are completely outlawed to everyone except the police and criminals still routinely obtain handguns.
they didn't call, they sent letters and at the same time they said they don't expect a war. And nobody is reporting for duty as many have implied.
semp
Only thing they did was telling people "in case of war - go to this place". That's how it works when u have a conscript army. When a country like Finland mobilize a milion men the toejam has hit the fan pretty hard, its like having the US mobilizing 50 milion men...
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: guncrasher on May 23, 2015, 03:36:16 PM
Only thing they did was telling people "in case of war - go to this place". That's how it works when u have a conscript army. When a country like Finland mobilize a milion men the toejam has hit the fan pretty hard, its like having the US mobilizing 50 milion men...
they didn't mobilize anybody.
semp
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Zimme83 on May 23, 2015, 03:54:56 PM
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Thruster on May 24, 2015, 12:09:41 PM
Probly need one of those vertical shoulder rigs.
Title: Re: Open carry Texas
Post by: Patches1 on May 25, 2015, 03:12:54 PM
Quote
When I was 11, I would ride my bike a mile and a half to school with my shotgun in a soft case. It sat in the teacher's closet until after school when I would retrieve it and go hunting with my buddy before riding my bike back home. Only trouble it caused was when the 6th grade teacher (I was 5th) Mr Wyndica asked to take a look at it. He asked what I was using for loads and I told him "#8s 'cause its all I have left." He explained how it wasn't a good idea for pheasants and after school gave me a handful of 4's or 6's :D
I was a member of my high school's competition rifle team in Seattle, Washington. My high school yearbook even has a photo of us with posing with our rifles on school property. Yes, times change, but so do attitudes, and it is the attitudes that don't necessarily change for the better. In Washington State today, schools are "Gun Free Zones" by law, and yet we had a recent tragic school shooting that took several lives, including that of the shooter. Please, tell me how the legislation of "Gun Free Zones" prevented this act! Actually, no amount of legislation would have prevented this tragic occurrence simply because the shooter was not in fear of the law, nor had any intention of following the law; his only intent was to kill others, and then himself: as an aside to this tragedy, a few Washington State School Districts have trained, are are training, some volunteer school administrators to carry concealed on school grounds to act as "1st Responders" until Law Enforcement can arrive. Yes, attitudes have changed. I could go on and on, but I don't want this thread to be locked due to my views... so read on!
Washington State is an "open carry" State, as well as a "shall issue" (concealed carry) State, yet I see no citizens blatantly parading around with a firearm on their hip. I think, should the State of Texas pass an "open carry" law, it's citizens will exercise good common sense and responsibility, as do the citizens of Washington State.