General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: earl1937 on July 06, 2015, 01:54:36 PM
Title: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: earl1937 on July 06, 2015, 01:54:36 PM
:airplane: OK, I am like a lot of other guys in this game, I try to fly these aircraft just like flying the real ones! Not saying that anyone playing this game ought to be a real life pilot, but to see some of the crazy things guys do with these aircraft sends a shutter up my 6! Tell you what Hi Tech, how about putting a limit on the vertical displacement, I.E., 60 degrees nose up or down, you die! and while you are at it, put a 60 degree bank limit on it too! Then all this crap going on with bombers would stop! I had a guy "barrel" rolling a B-17 the other day on climbout, at 120MPH IAS! While everything about this game is prgramed as best you guys can do and you do a "heckava" job, some of this crap needs to be stopped!
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Wiley on July 06, 2015, 02:02:55 PM
Forgive a stupid question, but why would the angles play a factor on structural limits? Wouldn't it be the G loads on the airframe that would cause it to fail?
Wiley.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bozon on July 06, 2015, 02:59:24 PM
Forgive a stupid question, but why would the angles play a factor on structural limits? Wouldn't it be the G loads on the airframe that would cause it to fail?
Wiley.
Bombs will not clear the bay & doors at high bank or pitch angles. If you dive-bomb a real heavy bomber you may have loose bombs flying around inside the plane - the last ones to be released were mounted very high inside the fussalage.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Wiley on July 06, 2015, 03:07:21 PM
Bombs will not clear the bay & doors at high bank or pitch angles. If you dive-bomb a real heavy bomber you may have loose bombs flying around inside the plane - the last ones to be released were mounted very high inside the fussalage.
Right, dropping would be a whole nother thing, but I'm just not seeing why a 61 degree bank or dive would suddenly cause a B17 to fall from the sky.
60's a helluva bank in the second place, I rarely see the good ones doing anything like that.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: earl1937 on July 06, 2015, 03:44:28 PM
Forgive a stupid question, but why would the angles play a factor on structural limits? Wouldn't it be the G loads on the airframe that would cause it to fail?
Wiley.
:airplane: What I was saying is if the player exceeds those angles, he would automatically die in the game. I could care less about the "G" loading, that would be to hard to program I guess! All I am saying the bombers in game should be limited to what the real thing did, not this crazy crap I see in here everyday! (And don't get me started on "stick steering")
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Wiley on July 06, 2015, 03:50:24 PM
:airplane: What I was saying is if the player exceeds those angles, he would automatically die in the game. I could care less about the "G" loading, that would be to hard to program I guess! All I am saying the bombers in game should be limited to what the real thing did, not this crazy crap I see in here everyday! (And don't get me started on "stick steering")
Wouldn't that be roughly equivalent to having fighters instantly die if they exceed VnE by more than a couple mph? Seems to me like it would take quite a bit of the flavor out of the game.
I could see making it so they can't drop at attitudes where they couldn't actually drop, or modeling the crew having to drag their bruised and battered selves back to their gun position after a barrel roll, but what structurally prevents the planes from surviving a 61 degree bank?
What specifically is it that the plane can do in the game that it couldn't do in real life?
Wiley.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: colmbo on July 06, 2015, 10:20:35 PM
In real life I've done wingovers in a B-17, bank angle around 100 degrees or so. I don't like putting artificial limits on performance. If the heavy airplanes flew more like heavy airplanes it would be a self solving problem. Real life a B-17 would be very difficult to complete a roll in, the roll rate is horrible….good chance you'd run out of air before completing the roll.
Control forces are also very high, more so as speed builds. While this is modeled to some extend in game I have found that they just don't feel quite like the real airplanes….I'll do things in game I wouldn't think about doing real life.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Beefcake on July 07, 2015, 02:50:32 AM
-1
When I get a chance to fly I like doing stupid stuff with the toys Hitech has provided to us, one of my favorite pastimes is dogfighting in bombers, especially the B25. Granted I die 99% of the time and usually it's to me ripping a wing off in a combat maneuver, but it's always fun for a good laugh.
Bombers get pushed to the edge of their design limits in AH and most of the time they're flown beyond what aircrews in WWII did with them. However, if the airframe could take it then let it be. My only agreement with this is if AH models bomb bays that force pilots to drop bombs on a more level fight path, otherwise they risk damaging/losing bombs and or damaging their aircraft due to bomb bay collisions.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Zimme83 on July 07, 2015, 03:55:11 AM
Planes should be able to do whatever the airframe can handle. However if the stick forces are too excessive it too should be simulated so if it in reality was too hard to roll with a B-17 (as an example) this should be simulated in the game, just like plane can be uncontrollabe in a dive due to excessive stick forces.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Traveler on July 07, 2015, 08:49:11 AM
What isn't modeled into the game is the other 9 member of the B17 crew. A B17 Commander would never attempt to dog fight, he'd try to put his aircraft in the best position to allow his gunners to do their job. Remember the guns were not on fixed mounts and the gunners were not strapped they could't do their job if inverted, kind of hard to aim your weapon while dangle off the deck.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Mister Fork on July 07, 2015, 09:50:06 AM
What isn't modeled into the game is the other 9 member of the B17 crew. A B17 Commander would never attempt to dog fight, he'd try to put his aircraft in the best position to allow his gunners to do their job. Remember the guns were not on fixed mounts and the gunners were not strapped they could't do their job if inverted, kind of hard to aim your weapon while dangle off the deck.
you hit the nail on the head Traveler
Based on Earl's earlier comment, that if you exceed the angles recommended for normal operations, you end up knocking out your AA guns in your aircraft...if the gunners, navigator, and bombardier get hurt cause you're banking 60° or climbing at a stupid angle...barrel roles, you start damaging stuff and your crew... including radios, bomb racks, oxygen tanks, etc etc...
So in effect, it neuters your bomber...
Earl is right on this one guys...sorry. It's not realistic. Actually, it's almost cartoonish to do a barrel role in a B-17/24/29/Lanc/B-26/B-25/Ju-88/etc etc...They're designed for moderate flight control movements and the equipment and crew inside is held in on that same principle.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Ratsy on July 07, 2015, 10:13:57 AM
A good friend (who has significant T38 and TR1 hours) once explained to me the frustration of trying to trim a 'bent airplane'. In the T38, that would describe an aircraft that had excessive positive or negative G loads imposed over a period of time. There were some tail-numbers that he would avoid because they were such a pain in the bellybutton to trim.
I don't see how this could be any different with a mission-loaded B-17 being driven by a ham-fisted (or enthusiastic) Aces High pilot. Wouldn't they 'bend' that airframe such that it wouldn't trim properly on the bomb run (accuracy penalty)? This might mimic the same condition experienced when an outboard engine (1 or 4) is shot out in the game currently. Yaw city.
In other words, fly it like a fighter...level bomb like a fighter. That's funny, I don't care who you are. :cheers:
:salute
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: pembquist on July 07, 2015, 11:42:30 AM
I think there are two different approaches to games such as AH2. On the one hand you have features such as the crew experience modifiers in world of warplanes and on the other the engine controls of IL2. Both are trying to make their games more 'realistic', however in my opinion neither approach adds realisim to the 'feel' of flying and so have no interest for me personally. The idea that beyond some pitch angle or V speed you'd instantly die seems like a clumsy shortcut that adds nothing to the games central success which is the feel of flying. What makes sense in the context of AH2 would be more complex modeling of the things you guys say wouldn't work or would damage the aircraft in unusual attitudes. To me this sounds like a waste of limited development resources however, that is because the things you think are gamey don't stand out to me as a problem in the context of the game.
To make the game enjoyable there have to be a lot of consessions to playability over 'reality', (how many ground loops do you see? how about that laser bombsite? killshooter? friendly collisions?) does it really make sense to make bombers harder to fly and still have the ability for one person to synchronize a formations worth of guns at a point 500 yards out? (I can't remember what the range is but you get the idea.)
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Oldman731 on July 07, 2015, 11:52:20 AM
Based on Earl's earlier comment, that if you exceed the angles recommended for normal operations, you end up knocking out your AA guns in your aircraft...if the gunners, navigator, and bombardier get hurt cause you're banking 60° or climbing at a stupid angle...barrel roles, you start damaging stuff and your crew... including radios, bomb racks, oxygen tanks, etc etc...
So perhaps the fix is to simply lose the defensive guns (and/or the bomb load) if the plane exceeds certain parameters. Pilots who want to dogfight with their bombers could still do so, there would be no need to artificially limit the flight model, and the effects on the crew and payload would be replicated.
- oldman
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Randy1 on July 07, 2015, 12:06:27 PM
In real life I've done wingovers in a B-17, bank angle around 100 degrees or so. I don't like putting artificial limits on performance. If the heavy airplanes flew more like heavy airplanes it would be a self solving problem. Real life a B-17 would be very difficult to complete a roll in, the roll rate is horrible….good chance you'd run out of air before completing the roll.
Control forces are also very high, more so as speed builds. While this is modeled to some extend in game I have found that they just don't feel quite like the real airplanes….I'll do things in game I wouldn't think about doing real life.
Our vice president of engineering many, many years ago told me the story of rolling a B17 in training for ww2. Not on purpose. The deicing boot failed on one wing. He said by the time he figured out what happened, he had no choice but finish the roll. He said to his knowledge no one had ever rolled a B17.
On the wish. Do away with F3 and that will help a lot.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Interceptor on July 07, 2015, 12:47:38 PM
+1 : fully loaded Bombers are allowed to do impossible and arcade moves atm... And for G/angles, yes, some moves are impossible, for exemple, the bombs weight inertia alone would dismantle the plane during acrobatics some do...
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Randy1 on July 07, 2015, 01:46:25 PM
Another approch would be to have the drones breakaway much easier and have the drone fly on by itself until it was shot down or crashed.
Nothing worse than make a run on a drone and it snaps back to main group just as you pull the trigger.
Just another place where folks game the game pulling it further away from a simulation.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bustr on July 07, 2015, 03:38:03 PM
jee you don't like on demand collisions while getting in too close to a bomber box.....
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: earl1937 on July 07, 2015, 04:37:36 PM
jee you don't like on demand collisions while getting in too close to a bomber box.....
:headscratch: As usual, I guess I did not make my self clear! I am saying put a 60 degree limit on banks and climbing or descending, just for the purpose of making people fly bombers more like bombers flew in real life. As Columbo pointed out, there have been times when real aircraft far exceeded their normal operating limits! I remember one time, when working on 2 engines out on one side in a real B-29, approach to landing stalls, and before I could stop it, we snap rolled into a 1 and 1/2 right hand spin, but with power off the other side and hard left rudder, it recovered very nicely and never exceeded, if I recall correctly, about 175IAS and we were at 15,000 feet, which is where we usually did our "airwork"!
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Oldman731 on July 07, 2015, 09:23:20 PM
:headscratch: As usual, I guess I did not make my self clear! I am saying put a 60 degree limit on banks and climbing or descending, just for the purpose of making people fly bombers more like bombers flew in real life. As Columbo pointed out, there have been times when real aircraft far exceeded their normal operating limits! I remember one time, when working on 2 engines out on one side in a real B-29, approach to landing stalls, and before I could stop it, we snap rolled into a 1 and 1/2 right hand spin, but with power off the other side and hard left rudder, it recovered very nicely and never exceeded, if I recall correctly, about 175IAS and we were at 15,000 feet, which is where we usually did our "airwork"!
Earl, did you have a crew onboard, and what happened to them during the plummet?
- oldman
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: earl1937 on July 08, 2015, 03:34:24 PM
Earl, did you have a crew onboard, and what happened to them during the plummet?
- oldman
:airplane: We had a full crew on board and it was standard policy to stay in your assigned take off and landing positions when doing "air work" for safety reasons. There were no "standing" positions for gunners like on the 17's and 24's. Every gun position had a "seat" by which the gunner sat in and he was strapped in because if during an air attack or ack attack, should we have a "rapid" decompression event, due to damage to the pressure vessel, the aircraft, you could stand a risk of being thrown about inside the air craft. It was standard procedure to de pressurize the aircraft during tactical combat situations, unless it was a surprise attack of some kind!
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: caldera on July 08, 2015, 06:55:05 PM
So perhaps the fix is to simply lose the defensive guns (and/or the bomb load) if the plane exceeds certain parameters. Pilots who want to dogfight with their bombers could still do so, there would be no need to artificially limit the flight model, and the effects on the crew and payload would be replicated.
- oldman
That seems reasonable.
Now, if they would eliminate the drone warping as well... :pray
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bustr on July 09, 2015, 05:01:16 AM
The manual for the A-20G with wing pylons had the following limitation so released bombs would not damage the plane. From what I've been able to find, a 15 degree bank is one limitation for 4 engine bombers.
Bombing Drop Angle Limitations Diving limited to 30 degrees. Banking limited to 10 degrees. Climb limited to 15 degrees.
Even fighters are limited on banking angle against the real chance of damaging the prop by the up wing bomb.
You guys might want to brush up on the permissible glide angle for some of the bombers to release bombs.
By 1944, B26 that were used for low level skip and glide bombing had an N6 optical gunsight mounted as standard equipment for the pilot. It had a similar gunsight dial head as in the B25-H. It's in the 1944 Training manual linked above.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Bino on July 09, 2015, 08:16:33 AM
In real life I've done wingovers in a B-17, bank angle around 100 degrees or so. I don't like putting artificial limits on performance. If the heavy airplanes flew more like heavy airplanes it would be a self solving problem. Real life a B-17 would be very difficult to complete a roll in, the roll rate is horrible….good chance you'd run out of air before completing the roll.
Control forces are also very high, more so as speed builds. While this is modeled to some extend in game I have found that they just don't feel quite like the real airplanes….I'll do things in game I wouldn't think about doing real life.
:aok
Emphasis added in bold red.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Karnak on July 09, 2015, 05:57:24 PM
What bank and pitch angles did Lancaster's achieve during a evasive corkscrew?
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bustr on July 10, 2015, 06:02:20 AM
Lancaster bomb clearance angles.
Dive 30 Climb 20 Bank 10
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Karnak on July 10, 2015, 06:58:34 AM
Until proven otherwise i will say that Buffs like B-17, lancs etc. was not certified for any fancy maneuvering like rolls, hammerheads etc.
You dispute the corkscrew evasive maneuver? There is an awful lot of documentation and first person accounts supporting it.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Zimme83 on July 10, 2015, 07:47:56 AM
As i said, until proven otherwise. I dont know excatly how these maneuvers looked so its hard to say anything about them. But on the other hand, ist a big step from a corkscrew to a hammerhead.
Edit: did some search and corkscrews in lancs dont seems to be very near the maneuvers we do in AH: (http://www.460squadronraaf.com/images/corkscrw.jpg)
Prob effective against night fighters but not that violent.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Karnak on July 10, 2015, 10:33:32 AM
As i said, until proven otherwise. I dont know excatly how these maneuvers looked so its hard to say anything about them. But on the other hand, ist a big step from a corkscrew to a hammerhead.
Edit: did some search and corkscrews in lancs dont seems to be very near the maneuvers we do in AH: (http://www.460squadronraaf.com/images/corkscrw.jpg)
Prob effective against night fighters but not that violent.
I agree they were far less violent than what is done in AH, but they are also far more violent than a lot of people seem to think a heavy bomber did.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: SlipKnt on July 10, 2015, 01:02:43 PM
Our vice president of engineering many, many years ago told me the story of rolling a B17 in training for ww2. Not on purpose. The deicing boot failed on one wing. He said by the time he figured out what happened, he had no choice but finish the roll. He said to his knowledge no one had ever rolled a B17.
On the wish. Do away with F3 and that will help a lot.
In RED... ...THIS!!! :pray
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Interceptor on July 10, 2015, 01:30:33 PM
Then why can they drop bombs at 90° angle ingame atm with no problem?
Then why can they drop bombs at 90° angle ingame atm with no problem?
They can't drop bombs at a 90 degree angle in AH. Or let me rephrase that, if a B17 pilot is dropping his bombs at 90 degrees then his wings are already gone or he's about to lose them. Pilots in AH have a lot of misconceptions of what bombers can and cannot do.
I have to just ask what is the point of all this? Is there a serious epidemic of bombers performing violent maneuvers shooting down fighters everywhere? Or is just yet another wish to impose restrictions on bomber pilots so they have to fly in ways other people what them to?
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Zimme83 on July 10, 2015, 04:03:15 PM
I agree they were far less violent than what is done in AH, but they are also far more violent than a lot of people seem to think a heavy bomber did.
I have never said they couldnt maneuver, but doing aerobatics are a different thing. Buffs should handle like they did irl, if it takes forever to complete a roll due to heavy stick forces then it should be that way in AH too. The corkscrew is prob near the limit, the pilot was most likley not strong enough to do anything more violent.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Drane on July 10, 2015, 04:05:04 PM
I have to just ask what is the point of all this? Is there a serious epidemic of bombers performing violent maneuvers shooting down fighters everywhere? Or is just yet another wish to impose restrictions on bomber pilots so they have to fly in ways other people what them to?
Watch what the lancs do in this film. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,373417.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,373417.0.html)
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bustr on July 10, 2015, 04:32:46 PM
Those are bomb clearance angles for dropping bombs, not aircraft limits for evasive maneuvers.
Then you didn't watch a Lancaster last night in the MA dropping bombs banked almost 90 degrees while out turning fighters over the field I was gunning at. Those are the angles if not followed during bombing, the bombs are supposed to damage the Lancaster. I have watched this with all of our other bombers over the last 12 years.
Airjer's B26 popup fling bombing is not possible at the angle he pulls up while pitching his load. The nose is too steep which should have the highest bombs in the back of the bay hitting the back bottom of the bay on the way out. The B17 handbook has a complicated chart of what the maximum angles are for every single type of bomb it could carry tied to each mount station in the bomb bay. It appears structural damage of your own aircraft visa your own munitions kinetically striking it is not modeled.
If you really wanted to know the maneuvering angles, you would have already done the research like I did for bomb drop angles.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Beefcake on July 10, 2015, 04:58:45 PM
Just brainstorming here at work, to be honest I think what bombers need is something like interrupter gear....except for bombs. That would be the simplest solution.
An example would be the Planeside 1 Liberator Bomber, while flying this aircraft you could only roll or pitch about 20 degrees otherwise the bombbay would lock and prevent the release of bombs until the plane leveled out. You could still fly it like a fighter since it was a gunship but you could only drop bombs in level flight or while hovering.
Something similar could be used in Aces High, instead of modeling bomb bays or bomb collision you could just simply code in the historical bomb release limits for each bomber. If the bomber banks or pitches more than whats allowed they just simple can't release their bombs until they're leveled back out. This would allow bomber pilots to make defensive maneuvers but would prevent them from bombing at wild angles. It would also allow guys like me who do stupid stuff like dogfigthing in bombers to continue to do so.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bustr on July 10, 2015, 05:58:44 PM
Hitech would have to factor in the weight of the bombs and the effect on the ability to maneuver. The Lancaster I watched last night was pitching bombs during much of it's aerobatic maneuvering.
It may be a reality that Hitech chose to allow this so players would fly bombers. Over the years he has shown an appreciation of a balance between reality, and giving a few inches in favor of keeping players playing. Look at no engine management. Many players have asked for it specifically so it will punish you with engine damage for not remembering to effectively put the toilet lid down after every whizz. Engine nannyism.
When you research WW2 engines, you find they would not have been allowed for military aircraft if they didn't have a minimum 100hr life span, and could run on WEP or full throttle none stop for up to 10 hours. Most engine management and engine use limits were either for fuel conservation, extending engine life, or avoid spark plug fouling. So engine management in our game would be a simple mental mastibatory toy for those with that attraction to anality of the mind. And a way to clip our ACM monsters wings with engine nannyism. Things like that are not enjoyable to the piu, piu, piu crowd.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: eddiek on July 11, 2015, 01:32:15 AM
I had to put my gameplay on hold due to slow work recently, and haven't witnessed some of the drastic maneuvers that were mentioned in another thread. I DO remember way way back when, in the early days of AH, a certain pilot (I can't recall his name, too many years gone by) that would wait til you got into firing range and split S and get away or distance himself with the maneuver enough to force pursuers to restart the chase. I recall some of the better sticks in the game at the time getting frustrated if not downright ticked off at seeing it happen..throttling back to try to stay with him never seemed to work. Jugs, Corsairs, Spits, 109's, 190's............didn't matter what the pursuers were flying, you could not match the B17 split S. You would black out trying, and meanwhile, he would have opened up the range to 3 or 4K again. My point is this: Weird flight performance and maneuvers from buffs have been in the game about as long as I can remember. Whether by design, for gameplay equality or something, I have no idea. Only "questionable" thing I saw recently was a set of B17's hitting like 340 or 350 mph at 33K or more, and according to the film, not descending to gain that speed. I broke contact and went out of range so can't tell you if they help that velocity for any length of time, but it was strange seeing it. I do wonder if the higher alts reveal buggy things in the flight models. I remember an issue some years back where the TBM would hit over 400 mph at high alts..........I believe it was like 450+. Someone sent in a film of it and it got fixed pretty soon afterwards.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bustr on July 11, 2015, 06:10:35 AM
Here is another diagram. http://www.lancaster-archive.com/lanc_corkscrew.htm
They can't drop bombs at a 90 degree angle in AH. Or let me rephrase that, if a B17 pilot is dropping his bombs at 90 degrees then his wings are already gone or he's about to lose them. Pilots in AH have a lot of misconceptions of what bombers can and cannot do.
I have to just ask what is the point of all this? Is there a serious epidemic of bombers performing violent maneuvers shooting down fighters everywhere? Or is just yet another wish to impose restrictions on bomber pilots so they have to fly in ways other people what them to?
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: FTJR on July 11, 2015, 08:45:29 AM
Alex Henshaw regularly barrel rolled Lancasters during demonstration flights. However I agree more of a problem when they drop stuff.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bustr on July 11, 2015, 03:20:56 PM
How many of you ever read the spit9-14 hand books concerning bomb dropping?
Mosquitos have warnings about only jettisoning wing tanks flying level and at specific speeds with no yaw (175-260 knots). Firing rockets are prohibited while wing tanks are connected and up to 60 sec after jettisoning. Bomb bay doors can be opened up to 305 knots.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: earl1937 on July 14, 2015, 03:54:38 PM
:airplane: Bustr, diagram is interesting, but lets see if the famous "lanc's" can do a true aerobatic maneuver called a slow roll! Remember to do a slow roll, pick out a point on the horizon or the top of a mountain and do a complete roll, 360 degrees, keeping the nose of the aircraft on that point though out the roll....plus or minus 50 feet would be acceptable in the bombers. What you have shown is known as a "barrel roll"
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bustr on July 14, 2015, 04:13:20 PM
The diagram along with reading crew accounts from WW2, the maneuver is s-curves while at the same time diving and climbing in coordination. The rear or top gunner calls the side to break to by watching the night fighter's attack.
This was not a daytime maneuver. It would be easily followed by a day fighter. It is a night time maneuver which to a degree confuses or ruins the aim of the night fighter. Some sources say it was effective others called it garbage. Mostly the pilots who had the timing down and could perform the maneuver, along with crew who could call the night fighter break response point made it work.
Sometimes the break gave the rear gunner a full side exposed shot on the night fighter.
They did this going into the target loaded with bombs and coming out unloaded. Says something for the Lancaster's structural limits. None of my research could I find a barrel roll as a Lancaster defensive maneuver.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: FLOOB on July 15, 2015, 09:25:24 AM
Being able to do things like this in a four engine bomber is dumb and brings dishonor and ridicule upon our hallowed game.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: hitech on July 15, 2015, 12:09:06 PM
According to what I can find online, the limits that Bustr posted...
Lancaster bomb clearance angles: Dive 30 Climb 20 Bank 10
As well as flying inverted while loaded with bombs (first pass in the video).
Watch the film closly at what angle were the bombs dropped?
2nd those angles assume an unacelerated angle. With a slight loading as in the film the clearance angles of the drop will change.
As far as flying inverted, he was never really flying under neg G's the entire time. The game all ready has load tolerance on the wings not done in G's but total force on the wings. Obviously he didn't exceed those so whats is the issue?
Aces High has never tried , nor does it want , to force a pilot to behave like the real pilots did during the war.
HiTech
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bustr on July 15, 2015, 03:19:45 PM
Hitech,
The angle limits for pitching bombs is to protect the bomb bay, fuselage, props and engines from being hit. AAF placed limits on bomber and fighters wing angle and nose pitch during glide and dive bombing to protect from those strikes. I've noticed over the years you may have chosen not to model that.
When I was looking for the manuals I posted in here about flight restrictions, I ran into that clear explanation for the warning.
When you first introduced the B29, I ran into a player in the TA who would up it with 25% fuel and barrel roll it by climbing a few thousand feet, diving to the deck, and barrel rolling with the pull out from the deck. I have no clue if that was possible in real life, or if the airframe would survive it but, this is your unique universe.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: hitech on July 15, 2015, 03:55:13 PM
The angle limits for pitching bombs is to protect the bomb bay, fuselage, props and engines from being hit. AAF placed limits on bomber and fighters wing angle and nose pitch during glide and dive bombing to protect from those strikes. I've noticed over the years you may have chosen not to model that.
When I was looking for the manuals I posted in here about flight restrictions, I ran into that clear explanation for the warning.
When you first introduced the B29, I ran into a player in the TA who would up it with 25% fuel and barrel roll it by climbing a few thousand feet, diving to the deck, and barrel rolling with the pull out from the deck. I have no clue if that was possible in real life, or if the airframe would survive it but, this is your unique universe.
I understand why the limits were there, but you also must think about the difference in the real world limits when thinking about accelerated flight. There is no difference in how the bomb will drop away relative to the plane if the plane is under 1 g and completely upside down, vs level and right side up.
I had considered modeling it, and if I would it would also include the above effects, it would have almost zero game play impact, because the film posted would still be possible, because the drop is still with in the limits.
HiTech
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Bino on July 15, 2015, 04:35:38 PM
Watch the film closly at what angle were the bombs dropped?
2nd those angles assume an unacelerated angle. With a slight loading as in the film the clearance angles of the drop will change.
As far as flying inverted, he was never really flying under neg G's the entire time. The game all ready has load tolerance on the wings not done in G's but total force on the wings. Obviously he didn't exceed those so whats is the issue?
Aces High has never tried , nor does it want , to force a pilot to behave like the real pilots did during the war.
HiTech
Thanks for the replies in this thread, HiTech! :salute
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: Zimme83 on July 15, 2015, 04:39:52 PM
What could be an issue is if the pilot is strong enough to do those maneuvers, stick forces must be pretty heavy in that case, But i havent flown a Lanc so i cannot tell...
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bustr on July 15, 2015, 04:57:18 PM
If you play these games long enough, you stop being surprised that the code world is not the real world when it coitus interruptuses you out of the depth of your mental drug fix. Or you end up watching really angry addicts accusing the game creator of stepping on "their" fun. And we all know the law of diminishing returns that applies to drug fixes.
Hitech, the more explanations you give about your choices of why you present the physical functions in the AH world in a given manner. The more sense the game's process makes regarding your target goals for playability.
It looks like your addicts want to raise a lynch party because you are not targeting out doing WT\IL2\DCS with a Holo-deck extravaganza overdose fix. Some of them sound like they have plateaued and are blaming you with the euphemistic accusation equivalent of cutting their stuff. The truth is they no longer receive the same positive dopamine rush they used to, and blame it on you, not their personal biology.
Anger studies are finding that the brain responds by becoming closer to and trying to bond with the experience. The closeness is a natural tendency to wanting to eliminate the source of the anger. Kind of a twisted thing but a natural tendency. Ever wondered why so many players can sustain being angry at so many people and things in the game for so many years? It's the other side to the self dopamine addiction that eventually cannot be supported without taking a break.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: FLOOB on July 17, 2015, 11:12:51 AM
It's like he was going fast and turned auto level off and drifted upward. But that's nothing, check this out.
I wonder what altitude that base is.
You're comparing a restored Lanc flown to a fraction of its limits to a jet fighter?
Ok then....
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: FLOOB on July 17, 2015, 01:38:52 PM
Quote
You're comparing a restored Lanc flown to a fraction of its limits to a jet fighter?
Ok then....
No one is doing them things what you said they's doing Karnak.
Ok for reals though, seriously. Hitech I guess I worry about what kind of impression potential subscribers get when they see things like dive bombing b-17's doing close air support and other game features.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: hitech on July 17, 2015, 04:07:55 PM
No one is doing them things what you said they's doing Karnak.
Ok for reals though, seriously. Hitech I guess I worry about what kind of impression potential subscribers get when they see things like dive bombing b-17's doing close air support and other game features.
My guess would be "COOL! I didn't know a bomber could do that".
Also FLOOB, I have a feeling you don't fly bombers very much?
HiTech
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: bustr on July 17, 2015, 04:42:16 PM
Crabby is doing the one plane a month ride thing right now. He gets his ride through some random selection process. The C47 came up this tour. Crabby is embarrassing fighter jocks making them auger and pulling off aerobatic ACM with the best of them in multi plane engagements. Only selective outrage because the C47 carries no guns or bombs?
What are you going to say when the Lancaster comes up for crabby? I know he has friends waiting in line to gun for him. Some of the best fun I've had in the game is flying as his gunner in TBMs and 110s into clouds of red guys. He always gets some of them to auger while I'm pilot wounding the rest.
Title: Re: 60 Degree Limits for Bombers
Post by: FLOOB on July 18, 2015, 02:30:21 AM
I flew that lanc in the video, but no I don't really fly anything anymore. I mainly just sit in the tower picking locks and reporting transgressions and giving inspiring words to the fighters of the Democratic People's Republic of Knightland.