Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zimme83 on July 15, 2015, 10:25:25 AM
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Looking at the stats its obvious that the TnB have a hard time in MA, only the wildcats and Ki-43 have a k/d of >1. (thanks to a few good and dedicated players) Most of the rest is among the worst planes in k/d ratio:
I -16: 0.52
A6M2: 0.51
A6M3 0.74
Brew: 0.75
Hurri IIc_ 0.87
And so on...
Based on this its a little wierd that dedicated TnB are concidered "über" when its obviously very hard to be succesful in them. Even The P-40 variants beat most TnB:ers in k/d ratio.
I think its time to kill the myth that slow turn fighters are easy to fight in, You can fight low and slow better than a pony yes, but most of the time you cannot dictate the terms of the fight.
opinions on that?
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The only burning those planes do is when they are shot.
Turn and burners would be something in a spitfire, 109f-g2, ki's, n1k, or a f4u/f6. The planes you listed are just to slow.
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Slow Early-Mid war planes, even if good turners, have a hard time competing with the faster more heavily armored Latewar planes. By the time you evade the attack and get into firing position, the enemy is already well out of guns range.
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Brew is pretty dope little machine.
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It's not that they are easy/hard to fly, it is that these types of planes are super slow to be successful in outside of their range. Fighting late war planes, which were designed to go fast and carry a punch, can out run all the midwar TnBers. It was found that the faster the plane, the better survival rate of the crews. TnBs are good in fast action furballs low on the deck. They can only utilize that specific function in the fight. The other extreme is a typhoon, its a plane that can only really utilize the BnZ function. TnB planes typically lose in higher furballs because they cannot dive well and cannot escape or evade a bunch of cons who are faster than it.
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Imo speed is the single most important factor for a plane, faster planes can always dictate the terms and simply run for it if its getting too hot.
But why is this "myth" about the überness of slow turner still around?
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Imo speed is the single most important factor for a plane, faster planes can always dictate the terms and simply run for it if its getting too hot.
But why is this "myth" about the überness of slow turner still around?
Because people get slow with them and die badly because their SA failed them. Or, occasionally they get slapped down by an altmonkey in a turnybird. A brew with enough alt on you has a very good chance of killing your late war speed demon unless you do the right things. If you happen to get too slow, a Zeke will ruin your day if he happens to get close to you with enough speed and outaccelerates you when you go to extend.
Wiley.
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Because people get slow with them and die badly because their SA failed them. Or, occasionally they get slapped down by an altmonkey in a turnybird. A brew with enough alt on you has a very good chance of killing your late war speed demon unless you do the right things. If you happen to get too slow, a Zeke will ruin your day if he happens to get close to you with enough speed and outaccelerates you when you go to extend.
Wiley.
Brewsters and Wildcats in a dive can be really dangerous even to faster planes. And yes - most of the time people are getting too low and slow and fails to look around them (and then complain when they die...)
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Tnb is a type of flying, not an airplane.
A person who excels and a Tnb style of fighting has already mastered a bnz style and is bored with it. This is why Tnb "pilots" are the better players, not the better planes.
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Tnb is a type of flying, not an airplane.
A person who excels and a Tnb style of fighting has already mastered a bnz style and is bored with it. This is why Tnb "pilots" are the better players, not the better planes.
I disagree with that a fair bit. From what I've seen if you take the average newb, the first thing they're going to want to do is yank and bank. The KDRs for the twisty things IMO are due to a combination of newbs and vets that generally don't care if they die. The vets that care if they die fly faster stuff.
A decent TnB flyer can generally transfer over to BnZing decently as well, but a guy that only ever sticks to the BnZ-attempt rope-BnZ loop, no matter how polished he may be in that role, isn't going to find a ton of skill transfer if he tries to turnfight in something that's slow. I'll grant you that.
Wiley.
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Even The P-40 variants beat most TnB:ers in k/d ratio.
The P-40's worst enemies are the uber turning planes. Most other planes can escape from them at some point. P-40s have glacial acceleration and a lower top end speed. My heart sinks when I see a Zero or B-239 co-alt or above, because there is no way to turn with them and they will run me down too. :furious
As for a better K/D, typically a lower number of pilots take up a P-40 (mostly P-40 fans, who have some experience in it), as opposed to the EZ-mode Brewstard, which can influence the stats to make it appear that the P-40 is superior.
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The P-40's worst enemies are the uber turning planes. Most other planes can escape from them at some point. P-40s have glacial acceleration and a lower top end speed. My heart sinks when I see a Zero or B-239 co-alt or above, because there is no way to turn with them and they will run me down too. :furious
As for a better K/D, typically a lower number of pilots take up a P-40 (mostly P-40 fans, who have some experience in it), as opposed to the EZ-mode Brewstard, which can influence the stats to make it appear that the P-40 is superior.
I love to see a P-40, knowing its an easy kill if he decides to figth, P-40 loose E so fast that anything can reverse the E stats and then having an easy kill.
Have tried the P-40:s, I really want to love them but... its a veryveryvery useless plane in the Ma. A lot of faster planes can outturn u too so u have no strenght at all to use.
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I love to see a P-40, knowing its an easy kill if he decides to figth, P-40 loose E so fast that anything can reverse the E stats and then having an easy kill.
Have tried the P-40:s, I really want to love them but... its a veryveryvery useless plane in the Ma. A lot of faster planes can outturn u too so u have no strenght at all to use.
Useless? Quite the contrary, when a third rate hack named after a 50/50 poly/cotton, sleeved blanket has more than 2,000 kills in them. And a rather respectable K/D to boot.
You better bring your "A" game though, that is if you dare to venture out of that kiddie plane. :neener:
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Useless? Quite the contrary, when a third rate hack named after a 50/50 poly/cotton, sleeved blanket has more than 2,000 kills in them. And a rather respectable K/D to boot.
You better bring your "A" game though, that is if you dare to venture out of that kiddie plane. :neener:
Imo: If a guy become the No 1 fighter pilot lying only the P-40 i will name him/her the best pilot in the game. P-40 are good BnZ:er but need friends in the area to survive.
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Imo speed is the single most important factor for a plane, faster planes can always dictate the terms and simply run for it if its getting too hot.
But why is this "myth" about the überness of slow turner still around?
It is
Flying the tempest in January, I was able to escape from a lot of gangs because I could simply run away from all of them. I didn't get low n slow, and I used the plane for what it does best. I was capable of staying alive because I could get away from trouble without having to worry too much about other planes catching me. This is kind of a boring way to fly, but in real life you would be very happy about it.
A TnB plane cannot get away from a gang unless you out turn a 5-1 and win the fight. You will have to be very good defensively and know advanced ACM to be able to win the fight Vs a group of cons. In a 1v1 fight, if I'm in a P38 Vs a Zeke, if I get slow against it, it will win every time if I cannot dive away. If I don't use my E and speed wisely, I will be an easy kill. Now if it was the Zeke Vs 5 P38s, it would be very difficult for the Zeke to gain any type of advantage.
That's why you don't see very many #1 pilots in zekes and Fm2 because they are out matched and getting ganged in them will happen a lot. No matter how good your SA is, you will die simply because you will have a very hard time escaping multiple con situations.
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Imo: If a guy become the No 1 fighter pilot lying only the P-40 i will name him/her the best pilot in the game. P-40 are good BnZ:er but need friends in the area to survive.
The P-40 is a barely adequate BnZer for maybe two passes and that's it. It's really far too underpowered for that role. Also, parts come off at speed, much sooner than you would expect. It is nicely maneuverable, but can't be called a good plane by any definition. That doesn't mean you need to hold hands to kick some ass.
By the way, surviving means you aren't fighting hard enough.
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Old AH: Turning = good
New AH: Turning = dumb
Trying to out turn a plane that turns better was a pretty popular pass time. I wonder what the average airspeed is now compared to 10 years ago? And yes, we did walk uphill in the snow to and from school :D
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Brewsters and Wildcats in a dive can be really dangerous even to faster planes. And yes - most of the time people are getting too low and slow and fails to look around them (and then complain when they die...)
A Brew, zeke, etc with several thousand feet of alt on you and you're anywhere near the deck and not at full speed, you may very well be in a heap of trouble.
I've killed more than a few LW monsters, LaLas, ponies, Temps, etc in an I-16 due to nothing more than having 5K of alt over their heads. If they can't dive away and can't out turn you, the fight is yours to lose and those are some nice fighter perks. :devil
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I don't fly much these days but I've generally spent my flying time in the 38G. It turns well and I like to get low and slow. Doing that is not the best way to have a great K/D but it's great fun.
The other night after dying a bunch, I hopped in a 51 and promptly landed kills, which I rarely if ever do. I got the usual attaboys and responded they didn't count as the 51 was cheating :)
So did the 51 make me a better cartoon pilot? Nah. I still suck. But it shows that go fast, don't turn makes it easier to land kills and have a good K/D
The Myth of the slow turner is not a myth. It isn't about K/D it's about the challenge of surviving when you don't hold all the cards. The best sticks historically have been able to survive in turn and burn birds. Doing the same in a later war straight and skate bird is not a valid comparison.
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Looked at my scores from my 2 week trial, 16-20 was my score in the 51D so apparently its not so har to be resonably succesful in it. I normaly only fly planes like the pony when going to a base were i know i will be outnumbered. Its fun to come in high and fast and zoom around knowing that noone can catch u. But it isnt much of a challenge.
With a slow turnfighter u are more in the hands of the opponent and often starts the fight at a disadvantage as the enemy are faster and/or higher. If u know how to gain E while dodging the BnZ attacks u can catch even K-4:s and Hogs, If u meet an average player. Its really hard to beat a good player in a good plane if u are a good player in a bad plane.
A Brew, zeke, etc with several thousand feet of alt on you and you're anywhere near the deck and not at full speed, you may very well be in a heap of trouble.
I've killed more than a few LW monsters, LaLas, ponies, Temps, etc in an I-16 due to nothing more than having 5K of alt over their heads. If they can't dive away and can't out turn you, the fight is yours to lose and those are some nice fighter perks. :devil
Zekes and Ki-43 isnt so dangerous if they are high since they dont handle high speed very well, FM2 and Brewsters can just point the nose straight down and force faster planes into a turn fight, its really fun to do. The Brewster is even better at handling high speed dives than spits and 109:s, atleast between 400-450mph so it can be really dangerous untill u level out, then its like hitting a brick wall so the timing has to be perfect when diving on a faster plane.
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I love to see a P-40, knowing its an easy kill if he decides to figth, P-40 loose E so fast that anything can reverse the E stats and then having an easy kill.
Have tried the P-40:s, I really want to love them but... its a veryveryvery useless plane in the Ma. A lot of faster planes can outturn u too so u have no strenght at all to use.
(http://i1172.photobucket.com/albums/r561/folanjohnp1/P40C-BREWSTER_zpsa4c2e0b2.jpg)
You where says ;)
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Lol, bet that was not a 1 vs 1 :aok And u see, even with one wing I can outturn u :rofl
And Btw: How old is that? If its me it must be a very old pic, checked stats and i havent been killed by a P-40 in a Brew in atleast 6 months.
Edit 2: Actually; No P-40 has been awarded a kill on my Brewster ever...
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Old AH: Turning = good
New AH: Turning = dumb
Trying to out turn a plane that turns better was a pretty popular pass time. I wonder what the average airspeed is now compared to 10 years ago? And yes, we did walk uphill in the snow to and from school :D
What he said ^, and you get more action for your time spent in game burning and turning on the deck than you do sitting back at 10k cruising to the sound of Bannana Rama picking off the unaware that happen to be fighting someone else, think of all the time wasted to climb to Alt , just to climb back up, kind of boring to me <shrug> other not so much, real life yes we would all be happy with this safer :o attitude.
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Lol, bet that was not a 1 vs 1 :aok And u see, even with one wing I can outturn u :rofl
And Btw: How old is that? If its me it must be a very old pic, checked stats and i havent been killed by a P-40 in a Brew in atleast 6 months.
Edit 2: Actually; No P-40 has been awarded a kill on my Brewster ever...
Lol I like that a mere photo of the p40 of doom puts you on the defensive.
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Point is...? U were apparently not the one credited with the kill so there must have been atleast one more con in the fight. And Of course u can kill stuff in a P-40, havent say u couldnt. The pic rather confirm what i said, it works as long as u have friendlies around so u can jump on cons that are lower and slower (and engaged in a fight with other planes) and then disengage to regain alt.
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Lol please show me where I said that was you in the screenshot :old:
Your correct, it was actually a 3v1 with me being the one. Killed 2(including the brewster) and the LALA ran to more friendlies.
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:lol Just assumed since it is the skin i always use. But that explains it. Some noob using my skin :furious
Were just a bit confused since i thought it was me but now it makes more sense. If u won a 1 vs 3 in a 40C then :salute. That is hard.
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It's really very simple. You can't get away.
No matter what you run into in terms of airframes, fighting styles or numbers you're going to have to fight your way out and in the MA numbers are what generally do you in.
That said, a good pilot with good SA can do serious damage before his luck runs out and it's some of the most fun flying in the game. The reputation is well deserved despite the numbers.
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The main game of real 'turners' in AH has always been mostly in furballs and in defenses vs CVs close to shore. Both are environments where you can find enemies getting low and slow enough to play with them even in something as slow as a Hurri I.
CV battles are still there, but the classic furballs had a massive decline over the years (for various reasons. And no my younger friends, a base capture that doesn't succeed within 5 minutes is still not a "furball")
As both he number of players in a specific battle went down as well as the overall MA speeds went up because of changing environment, the pure turners are becoming a less viable choice.
Back in the day there were tours I was occasionally using planes like the BF109F or even the Hurricane I as a prime ride for a tour or so. For example tour 92, when I got 300 kills in the Hurricane I.
There would be no way to pull that off again these days. With so few players in my timezone on such large map, enemy airborne targets mostly consist of high bombers and single fast town smashing jabos & field porkers.
Finally, I'd like to point out that even the use of the dreaded Spit 16 has been significantly going down over the past 6 years. For years it was competing with the Pony for the #1 spot.
In the current tour, for example, the top 3 killers are P-51D, La-7, Fw 190D.
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Finally, I'd like to point out that even the use of the dreaded Spit 16 has been significantly going down over the past 6 years. For years it was competing with the Pony for the #1 spot.
In the current tour, for example, the top 3 killers are P-51D, La-7, Fw 190D.
All planes that can easily extend away from trouble in case of emergency.
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The P-40's worst enemies are the uber turning planes. Most other planes can escape from them at some point. P-40s have glacial acceleration and a lower top end speed. My heart sinks when I see a Zero or B-239 co-alt or above, because there is no way to turn with them and they will run me down too. :furious
As for a better K/D, typically a lower number of pilots take up a P-40 (mostly P-40 fans, who have some experience in it), as opposed to the EZ-mode Brewstard, which can influence the stats to make it appear that the P-40 is superior.
Im not a P40 fan per say but i do think they are sexy birds and my squadron flew them in WWII so I find myself flying them more and this month 70% or more of my sorties have been in the E and N models Ive maintained a positive K/D with both as well. When I have alt people get scared of me every time when im coalt they still respect the warhawk but when im low everyone wants to pet me and it sucks lol
once you learn the 40 its a great plane
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I wish more people would fight low. Getting tired of 20k Spits, Ponies, LAs and 190s dropping on me every time I take off. Making me consider quitting the game.
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I wish more people would fight low. Getting tired of 20k Spits, Ponies, LAs and 190s dropping on me every time I take off. Making me consider quitting the game.
I just sit on the deck and watch them all auger diving in. They'll learn sooner or later. :devil
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I just sit on the deck and watch them all auger diving in. They'll learn sooner or later. :devil
I like to fly at about 12-14k on the way to target to stay JUST ABOVE the defenses and survey the situation, then I'll jump in and start turning, usually in a P-51D staying behind Corsairs and Spitfires under 5k. I can't well do that when there's almost always somebody at 20k looking for me. I just had my Typhoon picked off by a 22k Spit 16 when I was at 10k even heading to the fight, not even halfway across the channel to 170. I find myself playing less and less because of that stupid stuff. I'm not a GV guy. I have a Saitek X55 and Pro Flight pedals for FLYING, so I'm not just gonna stay NOE or run tanks, especially when I don't nerf my graphics to make seeing tanks easier. I can't shoot through trees or hills, either, making GVing further unappealing since that's what I always end up running into.
Then there's the whole thing where the Bishops see a single plane dar bar pop up in my territory and have 3 or 4 super planes waiting for me before I even cross the border, making bombers unappealing.
The three-team fistfight at A70 the other night was extremely fun, but it was a good furball, not a pickfest with 20k super planes waiting for folks to come in.
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You should definitely try flying at 500 ft. It's hilarious how many people dive in from 20K full throttled and rip their wings off.
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You should definitely try flying at 500 ft. It's hilarious how many people dive in from 20K full throttled and rip their wings off.
I flew for the first time in a couple weeks last night. It was interesting as even the birds you normally see turning and burning were up high and staying fast. I don't ever recall seeing a Wildcat, much less a pair of them booming and zooming and then running like they were last night. You can usually count on the N1K and Ki84 guys to mix it up, but again it was the same deal.
Was kinda sad really
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Yeah that's how it is these days. I've been playing less and less myself because of it. Just the other day an F4U was so determined not to fight me that he smashed his plane into the runway so he could tower out quicker. I just don't get why people avoid combat in a combat game.
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Yeah that's how it is these days. I've been playing less and less myself because of it. Just the other day an F4U was so determined not to fight me that he smashed his plane into the runway so he could tower out quicker. I just don't get why people avoid combat in a combat game.
Cause their cartoon deaths might impact on their cartoon scores :)
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I tried flying tonight and ended up burning 1200 lbs of fuel just watching one pass wonders like P51s and 190s all night.
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I have to say i like the off hours more, its less planes around but its easier to find fights that are resonably even (except for the bish horde) and people are less scared of being low and slow.
But on the other hand i understand why people fly doras and ponys etc, even a noob like me can zoom around and pick off 3-4 cons, run home and land them and get the wtg:s on country.
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I have to say i like the off hours more, its less planes around but its easier to find fights that are resonably even (except for the bish horde) and people are less scared of being low and slow.
But on the other hand i understand why people fly doras and ponys etc, even a noob like me can zoom around and pick off 3-4 cons, run home and land them and get the wtg:s on country.
Cherry Pickers create Cherry Pickers, so to speak. Defeating a Cherry is not that difficult, if your willing to adjust your style. Getting killed repeatedly by Cherries is largely the choice of the individual.
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Cherry Pickers create Cherry Pickers, so to speak. Defeating a Cherry is not that difficult, if your willing to adjust your style. Getting killed repeatedly by Cherries is largely the choice of the individual.
Excatly. And now 90% of the time i can choose between joining the horde (and be a cherry picker) or fight the horde (and being picked on). neither one of them is fun imo.
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Cherry Pickers create Cherry Pickers, so to speak. Defeating a Cherry is not that difficult, if your willing to adjust your style. Getting killed repeatedly by Cherries is largely the choice of the individual.
If your looking for any kind of fight you have to fight the horde. If you don't then all your going to get is races to be the first of 5 to get the lone runner.
Fighting the horde no puts you at a serious disadvantage. You spend most of your time defensive against any where from 3 to 8 guys with your wing man like wise engaged.
So yes in that your right, "Getting killed repeatedly by Cherries is largely the choice of the individual". Choose to get ganged over and over, or choose to chase runners. The choice sucks.
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If your looking for any kind of fight you have to fight the horde. If you don't then all your going to get is races to be the first of 5 to get the lone runner.
Fighting the horde no puts you at a serious disadvantage. You spend most of your time defensive against any where from 3 to 8 guys with your wing man like wise engaged.
So yes in that your right, "Getting killed repeatedly by Cherries is largely the choice of the individual". Choose to get ganged over and over, or choose to chase runners. The choice sucks.
Agreed in substance but I think there are other choices. I see the problem being that way too many people are looking for a yankybanky turnfight in a "strategic" arena, coupled with a strong desire for a high number of kills, with "death" being no more than a speedbump in the action. In order to keep AH interesting (for me), I gave up this line of thought a long long time ago. Sure, I occasionally jump in the fray... but soon remember my hatred of (getting) gang-banged & cherry picked, but it's inevitable. I decided a strategic approach might be fun, coupled with a SIMULATION attitude. So most of the time that's what I do (in my own fashion), with landing my ride as one of my major goals. Flexibility is key. The more people start to realize the vast amount of "things" you can do in AH, the less people will whine about hordes, cherry pickers, gangbangers or whatever. Some 16 years in (not counting AW), I don't see it happening any time soon, but HTC is on to it. HiTech provides balance regarding opportunity, choosing not to partake is (again) up to the individual.
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Anything over 15k should cost perks. Rising commensurate with the perk rating of your ride. 5 perks per 5 k of alt. :old:
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Imo speed is the single most important factor for a plane, faster planes can always dictate the terms and simply run for it if its getting too hot.
But why is this "myth" about the überness of slow turner still around?
There are certain planes I know are going to smoke me in a slow turn fight, but I choose to die with a set and take them on.
Most guys that will claim slow turner uberness are idiots like me who know they shouldn't have tried to turn with those little kites, but we did anyways.
:cheers: