General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Brooke on July 25, 2015, 04:30:52 AM
Title: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on July 25, 2015, 04:30:52 AM
I just got a Dell Inspiron Desktop (3000 series) for $500 (which has an i5-4460, 500 MB HD, 4 GB RAM, kb, mouse, DVD+/-RW, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit). I added a couple-year-old nVidia GTX 550 Ti card (about a $100-$130 card now) and a Corsair CX500 power supply (for $30 on sale, which took 5-10 minutes to install). Total cost of system, about $650.
It gets 60 fps with everything maxxed out except the environment-map slider. When everything is maxxed out including the environment-map slider, it averages about 45-50 fps.
So, I am happy with its performance/price and would recommend it as a good budget system for AH.
When I post on here that I use Dells, there are numerous posters who go on to tell me that Dells are bad. I then go on to tell them that I get fine performance for the price (see the above) and that I have personally and at my business owned or been involved in purchasing hundreds of Dell computers over the past few decades, that I can recall all of about 2-3 of them ever having any failure, that at my business they run 24/7 including running production equipment where a single computer hang can ruin up to about $30,000 worth of product, that we've been using some Dell computers on those machines for over 5 years before replacing them with newer models, and that we have some Dells that are 10 years old and still being used.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Bizman on July 25, 2015, 04:45:07 AM
Congrats for the new rig!
For those who are thinking about a budget computer, there's one thing I'd like to mention, though. As you said, it will play AH well with most of the eye candy enabled. The big question is, will it run the next AH equally well. We already have been told that the video card memory should be at least 1 GB, which is exactly what your GTX 550 Ti has. The other specs are likely to suffice, so I won't speculate them here.
As the Alpha is now open, would you mind telling us how your new rig performs with similar settings there? Although it's still Alpha, it already can tell something about the direction our hardware should evolve in order to maintain or improve the playability.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 25, 2015, 09:24:43 AM
I just got a Dell Inspiron Desktop (3000 series) for $500 (which has an i5-4460, 500 MB HD, 4 GB RAM, kb, mouse, DVD+/-RW, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit). I added a couple-year-old nVidia GTX 550 Ti card (about a $100-$130 card now) and a Corsair CX500 power supply (for $30 on sale, which took 5-10 minutes to install). Total cost of system, about $650.
It gets 60 fps with everything maxxed out except the environment-map slider. When everything is maxxed out including the environment-map slider, it averages about 45-50 fps.
So, I am happy with its performance/price and would recommend it as a good budget system for AH.
When I post on here that I use Dells, there are numerous posters who go on to tell me that Dells are bad. I then go on to tell them that I get fine performance for the price (see the above) and that I have personally and at my business owned or been involved in purchasing hundreds of Dell computers over the past few decades, that I can recall all of about 2-3 of them ever having any failure, that at my business they run 24/7 including running production equipment where a single computer hang can ruin up to about $30,000 worth of product, that we've been using some Dell computers on those machines for over 5 years before replacing them with newer models, and that we have some Dells that are 10 years old and still being used.
For 650 dollars a better system giving 140-200 fps can be built. A ready built box rarely a good value is.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Spikes on July 25, 2015, 11:05:45 AM
I guess, if you want to spend $600 on a mediocre sized monitor that supports 240hz refresh rate...but that $650 just jumped to $1250.
I think you not thinking right. A computer with capable of 300fps with AH does not need one needs to buy 300hz screen. Besides in one game speed can be 300fps and other 59fps. Btw a 144hz monitor only costs 350 dollars. Makes for a very good improvement already.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on July 26, 2015, 02:49:39 AM
For 650 dollars a better system giving 140-200 fps can be built. A ready built box rarely a good value is.
I am doubtful. Can you post a list with prices and links that shows a better system for $650?
I think that the best you can do for $650 is a tie (and then it will rely on using a large number of mail-in rebate deals and counting any time you spend shopping and assembling at $0/hour).
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 26, 2015, 04:27:27 AM
I am doubtful. Can you post a list with prices and links that shows a better system for $650?
I think that the best you can do for $650 is a tie (and then it will rely on using a large number of mail-in rebate deals and counting any time you spend shopping and assembling at $0/hour).
Here's just one example. Does at least 140fps in AH2:
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on July 26, 2015, 01:16:16 PM
Here's just one example. Does at least 140fps in AH2:...
I wouldn't count that as better than the Dell system since the CPU is significantly inferior to that in the Dell. To me, that is a major factor, as I use my computer for other tasks that are CPU dependent.
Also, it has no keyboard, mouse, or DVD+/-RW; the price of the graphics card is $15 more today than when that list was made; and it has a non-pro version of Windows. Change all of that, and you add $5 + $5 + $20 + $15 + $40 = $85 to the total cost (which was $655) and it is now a $740 system. If I apply that extra money to the Dell system, it could then have a better graphics card, too, and then it would have a comparable graphics card and a much better CPU than the system you reference.
At any rate, you say it does 140 fps in AH2. With what settings?
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 26, 2015, 03:49:19 PM
I wouldn't count that as better than the Dell system since the CPU is significantly inferior to that in the Dell. To me, that is a major factor, as I use my computer for other tasks that are CPU dependent.
Also, it has no keyboard, mouse, or DVD+/-RW; the price of the graphics card is $15 more today than when that list was made; and it has a non-pro version of Windows. Change all of that, and you add $5 + $5 + $20 + $15 + $40 = $85 to the total cost (which was $655) and it is now a $740 system. If I apply that extra money to the Dell system, it could then have a better graphics card, too, and then it would have a comparable graphics card and a much better CPU than the system you reference.
At any rate, you say it does 140 fps in AH2. With what settings?
Keyboard+mice can be had for 15 bucks even if you disregard most people already have those. The graphics card is much faster than yours. Nobody needs pro version of windows for home use.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: mikev on July 27, 2015, 01:00:03 AM
Keyboard+mice can be had for 15 bucks even if you disregard most people already have those. The graphics card is much faster than yours. Nobody needs pro version of windows for home use.
lol with what setting can you get 140 fps? that i want to see.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Gman on July 27, 2015, 08:33:24 AM
Quote
lol with what setting can you get 140 fps? that i want to see.
Feel free to drop by anytime, all three of our gaming systems in our home have 144hz Asus monitors, 1 ROG Swift, one MG279Q, which is a Freesync 144hz but is an IPS panel, not a TN one like the Swift, and another PC that has an older 24" Asus 144hz monitor it shares with an Acer 4k Gsync. There is no specific "setting" in AH or the video cards for 144hz, it's part of the monitor settings in nVidia control panel, plus on the Asus monitors above, there is a hardware switch that allows you in game to drop to 60, 85, 100, or 144 - not that I understand the purpose for this, why you would want LESS fps is something I haven't quite figured out. Maybe to reduce issues with some games, I don't know, but I've never needed it, and I have over 1 gig of Steam games folders, and a pile of others outside of it I've tried. I usually set my AH game to 1080p, as at 1440p, while the game looks better, the targets also shrink a bit, and it's harder to get hits, at least in my experience. I know this isn't some "head" thing, as Drex used to drop his resolution to 800x600 from 1024 back in the day for similar reasons. Anyhow, the ability to set the monitor refresh rates is in pretty much the same place, and once it's set to 144hz, nearly every game or program I've tried seems to let it run there.
144fps is where I play both AH and the new Alpha, well, it usually says 143 on the FPS counter, but i can live with the single missing digit. Only time it drops is with environmental cranked to max or the 2nd/3rd notch down, on 1 or 2, it still is maxed 95% of the time, only drops below 100 when over tank town with many cons around.
So far as rubber bullets, Spikes is right, if you disable vsync on a 60hz max monitor to achieve higher fps, you're asking for trouble IMO, but with Vsync or Gsync enabled with the newer vid cards and a 144hz capable monitor, I've not had any issues with that. Once you try a 144hz monitor out, you won't want to go back to 60, I can instantly tell using the Pepsi Challenge between the two, despite the stuff you can read online about "the human eye can only detect x amount of fps". Show me any game on 60 or 144, and the difference is obvious, and worth it IMO.
That said, 60hz isn't bad or anything, but for the extra 50 or 100$ with a 24", IMO 144hz is one option well worth the price.
So far as the OP, good for you Brooke, anytime you can upgrade a good used system yourself and get results you're happy with is a win. I did that myself when I got back into gaming in 2010, got a decent HP system that was an early i7, and put a 5770, the "it" card of that time in it, and it still runs AH pretty well on our projector screen as it became a HTPC.
Brooke's op post is a good example to others with older systems the new version may tax, that it doesn't have to break the bank to get a workable rig going for it.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 27, 2015, 12:36:56 PM
Once you try a 144hz monitor out, you won't want to go back to 60, I can instantly tell using the Pepsi Challenge between the two, despite the stuff you can read online about "the human eye can only detect x amount of fps". Show me any game on 60 or 144, and the difference is obvious, and worth it IMO.
You have to see it to believe. When I bought my first 144hz screen my friend came over and bought himself 144hz a new screen the next day.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Gman on July 27, 2015, 01:19:01 PM
Yep, I have had similar experiences with other gamers here when I've showed them the difference up close and personal. Guys who play online FPS games especially see a major difference and improvement, but DCS and Aces High certainly benefit big time as well IMO.
I understand it isn't always an option when building on a budget, but there are times when I've seen the Asus or BenQ 144hz 24" LCDs on sale for 225$ Canadian, so easily under 200$ USD if you look around is possible. It's something to consider if the budget allows it, in fact it should be pretty high on the list if you ask me.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Chalenge on July 27, 2015, 02:25:08 PM
When they have a 40" UHD VA monitor at 144Hz (or higher), then I'm all in.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Gman on July 27, 2015, 04:12:51 PM
40", not sure, but I know both Asus and Acer have 27 to 30" IPS 4k 144hz monitors planned and in the works. I'll be on that like white on rice as well. I know 40" works well for some guys who sit at a distance, but my desks are all set up so that anything larger than about 27" or so is too big/too close. I imagine someone will eventually do a 40" or something close, but I think in a year or less the smaller variants will be available, and that will be some pretty cool stuff.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 27, 2015, 07:06:30 PM
I just got a Dell Inspiron Desktop (3000 series) for $500 (which has an i5-4460, 500 MB HD, 4 GB RAM, kb, mouse, DVD+/-RW, Windows 7 Pro 64-bit). I added a couple-year-old nVidia GTX 550 Ti card (about a $100-$130 card now) and a Corsair CX500 power supply (for $30 on sale, which took 5-10 minutes to install). Total cost of system, about $650.
It gets 60 fps with everything maxxed out except the environment-map slider. When everything is maxxed out including the environment-map slider, it averages about 45-50 fps.
So, I am happy with its performance/price and would recommend it as a good budget system for AH.
When I post on here that I use Dells, there are numerous posters who go on to tell me that Dells are bad. I then go on to tell them that I get fine performance for the price (see the above) and that I have personally and at my business owned or been involved in purchasing hundreds of Dell computers over the past few decades, that I can recall all of about 2-3 of them ever having any failure, that at my business they run 24/7 including running production equipment where a single computer hang can ruin up to about $30,000 worth of product, that we've been using some Dell computers on those machines for over 5 years before replacing them with newer models, and that we have some Dells that are 10 years old and still being used.
i went with the cheap dell, upgrade later plan.
im looking at putting in a gtx 960 to go with the stock 460W power supply. looking at the specs it should do well w/ ah3. or ill have to up the power supply and get a 970.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Chalenge on July 27, 2015, 08:35:31 PM
I know 40" works well for some guys who sit at a distance, but my desks are all set up so that anything larger than about 27" or so is too big/too close.
I'm not going to repost the pic of my setup, but I had been using 3 ASUS Monitors in portrait mode that amounted to about 43 inches. That was pretty irritating because of the bezels that interrupted the continuity of the screen, and because the VESA mounts needed to be constantly tightened to hold relative orientation. Plus the power switches were in a poor position for the portrait orientation, so I had been looking for quite a while.
The problem is there isn't a single solution for higher frame rate, G-Sync, and the larger real estate I appreciate during content creation. I believe the hardware is going to be catching up with that need real soon.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on July 28, 2015, 01:31:21 AM
More details on frame rates on my budget Dell system.
100 fps: My usual settings (all maxed out except for environment slider, object self shadow, and water reflections).
77 fps: Everything maxed out except environment slider at 1 notch.
64 fps: Everything maxed out except environment slider at 2 notches.
45 fps: Everything maxed out including environment slider.
What I call "max settings".
Video Settings: -- monitor resolution 1920x1080 -- Disable vsync -- Max texture size 2048 -- Anti-aliasing: Most
Hi-res texture pack installed. <--- note this is important part of testing
Using P-51D with default skin on NE runway at A1 on ndisles map.
Graphics settings (via clip board) all maxed out, like this:
Keyboard+mice can be had for 15 bucks even if you disregard most people already have those. The graphics card is much faster than yours. Nobody needs pro version of windows for home use.
If you read what I posted, you will see that I put the keyboard and mouse at $10.
Nobody needs anything. What we are comparing is if the system you posted is better than the Dell system I posted.
You posted a $750 system, not a $650 system.
The Dell system with an extra $100 would have a $200 graphics card (not a $100 graphics card) and then be better than the system you posted because the CPU is much better than in the one you posted.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 28, 2015, 02:49:49 AM
If you read what I posted, you will see that I put the keyboard and mouse at $10.
Nobody needs anything. What we are comparing is if the system you posted is better than the Dell system I posted.
You posted a $750 system, not a $650 system.
The Dell system with an extra $100 would have a $200 graphics card (not a $100 graphics card) and then be better than the system you posted because the CPU is much better than in the one you posted.
No sorry that was exactly a 650 dollar system even if you try to invent extra cost. OEM computers have the lowest quality of everything usually. Some even have special versions of general hardware where cost have been cut. Always better to build your own from shelf components.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: pembquist on July 28, 2015, 10:35:48 AM
Hey Brooke, did you by the Dell used or new? I'm going to be revisiting my computer situation and am looking for ideas.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on July 28, 2015, 03:37:31 PM
No sorry that was exactly a 650 dollar system even if you try to invent extra cost. OEM computers have the lowest quality of everything usually. Some even have special versions of general hardware where cost have been cut. Always better to build your own from shelf components.
I didn't invent extra cost -- you left things out.
Dell computers have fine quality measured by uptime from my actual experience of hundreds of Dells over decades running 24/7 on mission-critical tasks.
Building yourself is not better under these cases: -- You don't have the time or experience to shop and build (not an insubstantial number of people in the world). -- You have a business that uses a lot of computers.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on July 28, 2015, 03:38:44 PM
Hey Brooke, did you by the Dell used or new? I'm going to be revisiting my computer situation and am looking for ideas.
I bought a new one. It was $500. The extra $150 is for graphics card and new power supply.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Gman on July 28, 2015, 08:57:38 PM
Regarding reflections/environment - My experience with the environmental setting is that when you are in a lot of action/smoke, is when it really separates the wheat from the chaff in terms of performance/systems. Sitting on the runway, I can get 144fps as well with everything cranked and enviro maxed - this is with 5960x/Titan or various other pretty fast x79 CPUs with 980 or 980sli setups.
Fly over tank town with 30 gvs fighting, 10+ cons in the air, and/or buildings/airfields burning with lots of action, and it can really, really...I won't say cripple as it's still playable, but drastically reduce frames per second performance. I've seen dips into the 30s in terms of FPS in such action with environment maxed. Reduce enviro to midrange or 1 or 2, back up to 144(3)fps usually.
Brooke, have you tried flying into heavy action areas with that environment setting at max? I'd be very interested to see how a 650$ system holds up with everything truly, truly maxed out with a lot of cons/gvs/smoke around. New version/alpha as well.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 29, 2015, 03:20:48 AM
I didn't invent extra cost -- you left things out.
Dell computers have fine quality measured by uptime from my actual experience of hundreds of Dells over decades running 24/7 on mission-critical tasks.
Building yourself is not better under these cases: -- You don't have the time or experience to shop and build (not an insubstantial number of people in the world). -- You have a business that uses a lot of computers.
I didn't leave anything out I posted a youtube tutorial that listed the specs. Complain to the guy who made the video if you wish.
Building yourself is better under every case except business use where you have to buy a lot of computers. That part I agree. Dell boxes have cost cuts and design changes in motherboards, bios etc. You can't over clock a Dell box and bios/uefi settings are very limited or not even available to do any tuning. One Dell box that I saw turned into a hoover when anything cpu heavy was run on it.
You're taking a stock Chevrolet to a race track basically. It runs but you can't win races.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Skuzzy on July 29, 2015, 06:40:23 AM
I didn't leave anything out I posted a youtube tutorial that listed the specs. Complain to the guy who made the video if you wish.
Building yourself is better under every case except business use where you have to buy a lot of computers. That part I agree. Dell boxes have cost cuts and design changes in motherboards, bios etc. You can't over clock a Dell box and bios/uefi settings are very limited or not even available to do any tuning. One Dell box that I saw turned into a hoover when anything cpu heavy was run on it.
You're taking a stock Chevrolet to a race track basically. It runs but you can't win races.
That is an exaggeration. Dell uses the same motherboard chipsets as ASUS or any other Intel motherboard supplier does. Where they save money is on the peripherals. For instance, the power supply is the precise power supply needed to run the computer, which saves money.
They also get a price break due to economies of scale. When you can buy like Dell does you tend to get rather nice price breaks.
Replace the low end video card and the power supply and it will run games as good as any other system. It will not overclock, but it will run just fine. Brooke is quite right.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Spikes on July 29, 2015, 07:35:49 AM
No sorry that was exactly a 650 dollar system even if you try to invent extra cost. OEM computers have the lowest quality of everything usually. Some even have special versions of general hardware where cost have been cut. Always better to build your own from shelf components.
Even if you used a 144 hz monitor, there is still a failure to mention that $350 cost, because I doubt everyone has one laying around.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 29, 2015, 09:24:11 AM
Even if you used a 144 hz monitor, there is still a failure to mention that $350 cost, because I doubt everyone has one laying around.
Nobody said anything about a 144hz monitor with the 650 dollar build.
Quote from: Skuzzy
That is an exaggeration. Dell uses the same motherboard chipsets as ASUS or any other Intel motherboard supplier does.
Even if this is true they choose the lowest end and cheapest chip set possible that has lowest performance and least upgrade options available. Simply a smelly deal to me. Dell also used to use their own connectors in past computers which would break your computer if you tried to install a non-Dell part.
I would never tell anyone to buy a brand computer for gaming. Just the added bloatware that comes with every manufacturer is really nasty.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Skuzzy on July 29, 2015, 09:33:32 AM
Nobody said anything about a 144hz monitor with the 650 dollar build.
Even if this is true they choose the lowest end and cheapest chip set possible that has lowest performance and least upgrade options available. Simply a smelly deal to me. Dell also used to use their own connectors in past computers which would break your computer if you tried to install a non-Dell part.
I would never tell anyone to buy a brand computer for gaming. Just the added bloatware that comes with every manufacturer is really nasty.
Go to Intel's WEB site and look at the chipset options. There is no such thing as a chipset which is not available and used by ASUS, Gigabyte, or any other motherboard manufacturer. The only limitation Dell has is they do not have a bunch of overclocking options available in the BIOS ROM.
I am not an fan of OEM computers, but what you are saying is not true. I used to do business with Dell. Yes, they have had proprietary things in their computers and you have to watch for that, but things like video cards have never been proprietary, nor system RAM.
Power supplies can be tricky as they mostly use nonstandard cases which prevents a standard ATX power supply from being used, but that is not always the case either. Many of their systems use standard ATX power supplies.
The single biggest factor in the cost of a Dell is the volume of parts they can buy, directly from the manufacturers, which helps keep the costs down.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 29, 2015, 09:56:53 AM
Go to Intel's WEB site and look at the chipset options. There is no such thing as a chipset which is not available and used by ASUS, Gigabyte, or any other motherboard manufacturer. The only limitation Dell has is they do not have a bunch of overclocking options available in the BIOS ROM.
I am not an fan of OEM computers, but what you are saying is not true. I used to do business with Dell. Yes, they have had proprietary things in their computers and you have to watch for that, but things like video cards have never been proprietary, nor system RAM.
Power supplies can be tricky as they mostly use nonstandard cases which prevents a standard ATX power supply from being used, but that is not always the case either. Many of their systems use standard ATX power supplies.
The single biggest factor in the cost of a Dell is the volume of parts they can buy, directly from the manufacturers, which helps keep the costs down.
I just checked the Dell website. Their 500 price range desktop uses the Intel H81 PCH chipset which is the most limited version available. Sure you can buy one from Asus but why would you?
Here's a comparison of the chipsets: http://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/1132-intel-haswell-chipset-comparison
With a basic Dell box a gamer can't even add another graphics card for Sli or crossfire because there are no slots!!!!!
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Skuzzy on July 29, 2015, 10:01:57 AM
I just checked the Dell website. Their 500 price range desktop uses the Intel H81 PCH chipset which is the most limited version available. Sure you can buy one from Asus but why would you?
Here's a comparison of the chipsets: http://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/1132-intel-haswell-chipset-comparison
With a basic Dell box a gamer can't even add another graphics card for Sli or crossfire because there are no slots!!!!!
Of course they have a computer with no expansion slots. So does every other OEM on the planet, but that is not the system Brooke is talking about.
By the way, most people do not care about SLI or Crossfire support. Just FYI.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 29, 2015, 10:18:49 AM
Of course they have a computer with no expansion slots. So does every other OEM on the planet, but that is not the system Brooke is talking about.
By the way, most people do not care about SLI or Crossfire support. Just FYI.
Did you check your facts before posting? Dell Inspiron 3000 all models have H81 chipsets according to http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-3847-desktop/pd?ref=PD_OC
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Skuzzy on July 29, 2015, 10:27:15 AM
Did you check your facts before posting? Dell Inspiron 3000 all models have H81 chipsets according to http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-3847-desktop/pd?ref=PD_OC
What are you talking about? Dell may not offer the upgrade path, but if Brooke put in a video card, then it obviously does have a PCI-e slot in it.
The H81 express chipset does have support for one 16 lane PCI-e expansion slot. Even the ASUS motherboards have that expansion slot.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 29, 2015, 11:06:02 AM
What are you talking about? Dell may not offer the upgrade path, but if Brooke put in a video card, then it obviously does have a PCI-e slot in it.
The H81 express chipset does have support for one 16 lane PCI-e expansion slot. Even the ASUS motherboards have that expansion slot.
Of course I didn't mean it would have no PCI-E slots at all. I meant a second slot for xfire/sli. If a gamer wants to build on cheap, cutting off the possibility for a cheap sli/xfire upgrade later may prove costly.
But whatever it's no use arguing. If people want to buy cheap electronics they have to live with their decisions. I wouldn't want to!
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: pembquist on July 29, 2015, 11:51:45 AM
Hey GSakis you are what in carpentry we would call a tool snob, not an insult just a description, often so labeled myself. So just to stir the pot I have a question for you, I just want to play AH with average settings at 60fps, I won't play any other games and have a primitive 23" lg monitor 1680 x 1050. With that specific criteria in mind will it cost less out of pocket to build or buy. Frankly my biggest turnoff of the prebuilt is the bloatware, biggest turn off of building is selecting components.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: NatCigg on July 29, 2015, 12:26:07 PM
building your own computer puts the risk on your end so a guy needs to know what he is doing. also when you add up the costs of windows, sd slots, wireless, and bluetooth in addition to the other components that are easily over spent on building your own can be expensive. on the other hand if you try to buy a game machine from dell your going to pay for it and most likely not get the same bang for your buck. personally i bought a dell on sale that had the components i wanted knowing i could add a videocard later. same with the power supply cuz im looking at that 970 with lustfull eyes. yet i could just swap out the video card considering the 960 has less power draw.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Skuzzy on July 29, 2015, 12:33:17 PM
Of course I didn't mean it would have no PCI-E slots at all. I meant a second slot for xfire/sli. If a gamer wants to build on cheap, cutting off the possibility for a cheap sli/xfire upgrade later may prove costly.
But whatever it's no use arguing. If people want to buy cheap electronics they have to live with their decisions. I wouldn't want to!
Not many people want to use SLI or Crossfire and for good reason. If that is your criteria, then that's fine. It happens you are in the minority on that choice.
Anyone wanting that would not go this route so I am still confused as to why you are stirring the pot in this thread? Brooke offered up a valid suggestion. Your disagreeing does not invalidate the suggestion.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Spikes on July 29, 2015, 04:22:51 PM
I didn't leave anything out I posted a youtube tutorial that listed the specs. Complain to the guy who made the video if you wish.
Then you didn't post something that beats the Dell for $650.
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Building yourself is better under every case except business use where you have to buy a lot of computers. That part I agree.
And for people who don't have the time (for either shopping or for developing the expertise to do the shopping/assembling).
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Dell boxes have cost cuts and design changes in motherboards, bios etc. You can't over clock a Dell box and bios/uefi settings are very limited or not even available to do any tuning.
So? This isn't a discussion of any of that. It is a discussion of a $650 Dell system, what's in it, and what it can measurably do.
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One Dell box that I saw turned into a hoover when anything cpu heavy was run on it.
I mentioned my experience of several hundreds Dells over more than 20 years. You seem to think that your one data point is a more powerful statistical indicator than my several hundred.
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You're taking a stock Chevrolet to a race track basically. It runs but you can't win races.
Wrong. I am talking about what a $650 Dell can do. You said you can beat it with $650 by build it yourself. You haven't shown that yet.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on July 29, 2015, 04:46:42 PM
It never fails for me to post anything about a Dell, prove that it is a decent budget system (decent in terms of what you get for the price), and yet have at least one built-it-yourself zealot post that I'm way off . . . but then fail to back it up.
You want to back up that a build-it-yourself system is better than the $500 Dell box?
Then do this -- post the parts, links, and prices for:
i5-4460 or better a motherboard a power supply a case a kb a mouse a DVD+/-RW a hard disk 4 GB of RAM or better Windows pro (7 or 8)
Why? Because that's what's in the $500 Dell.
Do the above, and I will say, "OK, well done. You are right." Until then, I am doubtful that anyone will do anything other than tie the Dell, and then it will require mail-in rebates (which in my experience about half the time don't pay you back).
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on July 29, 2015, 05:01:18 PM
By the way, I'm not against built-it-yourself. I've done plenty in the guts of computers in my life (as well as building electronics), and when my daughters are old enough, I will have them build themselves computers (including doing the shopping for parts) as a good learning experience.
Also, I agree that you can get a machine that is nicer than a Dell by building one yourself.
My point is the the Dell system is decent in performance/price -- not that it is the highest performance -- and that it is (in my large experience) good in terms of reliability.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on July 29, 2015, 05:15:20 PM
Regarding reflections/environment - My experience with the environmental setting is that when you are in a lot of action/smoke, is when it really separates the wheat from the chaff in terms of performance/systems. Sitting on the runway
Yep, that is true. The issue, though, is that it takes about 100 times longer to do testing, and the testing isn't repeatable.
I've flown for a couple of years with a Dell system a bit less capable than the one I posted about above (CPU not as good as the one above). I fly with hires textures and everything maxed out except with the environment slider set to none, no local water reflections, and no self shadow. I fly through clouds of all sorts (as I make them for special events), in big furballs, over towns with big fights, etc., and my fps through all of that stays good (where I don't have vsync turned off, so I don't know when it is higher than 60, but I don't notice bad frame rate in such situations).
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 30, 2015, 01:20:20 AM
How else do you plan on getting 140fps while not running the risk of getting artifacts and rubber bullets?
For the umptieth time: A system CAPABLE of 300fps does not need a 300hz monitor in order to be capable to that. Christ.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: guncrasher on July 30, 2015, 01:26:50 AM
the thing with a dell and other name brand computers is that you cannot really upgrade them later on. I think in the long run, it would be better if you build your own computer and upgrade little by little as you see fit.
my first computer cost me about 600 bucks 5 or 6 years ago. it was an e8400 cpu with a 9800gtx card. it played the ah new release back then at full frames. it was awesome.
I spent 500 bucks to upgrade cpu/mobo/ram and sold the e8400/mobo/ram for 200 bucks. so I spent 300 bucks to my current 2500k/mobo/ram. the 9800gtx sold it for 100 bucks I think way back then then got a evga 465 for 350 bucks. I ended up trading that 465 for a 970 even though I really didnot see any improvements at the time.
all the other parts havent really changed from that first build 6 years ago, I think. my hitachi hd which I dropped when I was first installing it and has some broken pieces off a corner is still going strong.
think building your own rather than buying off the shelf systems, will get you a better faster system in the long run.
semp
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on July 30, 2015, 01:37:02 AM
It never fails for me to post anything about a Dell, prove that it is a decent budget system (decent in terms of what you get for the price), and yet have at least one built-it-yourself zealot post that I'm way off . . . but then fail to back it up.
You want to back up that a build-it-yourself system is better than the $500 Dell box?
Then do this -- post the parts, links, and prices for:
i5-4460 or better a motherboard a power supply a case a kb a mouse a DVD+/-RW a hard disk 4 GB of RAM or better Windows pro (7 or 8)
Why? Because that's what's in the $500 Dell.
Do the above, and I will say, "OK, well done. You are right." Until then, I am doubtful that anyone will do anything other than tie the Dell, and then it will require mail-in rebates (which in my experience about half the time don't pay you back).
All that's in a 500 dollar dell attached to the weakest H81 chipset that has been stripped of everything possible. You can't overclock or expand that system for much anything. It has only two ram slots, one PCI-E x16 slot and no advanced storage functionality. It has subpar cooling for a gaming box because it's designed to do light office work. It has an ancient hard drive model from Dell mass purchases 5 years ago. Everything in it is cheap and low quality. When you build your own you can choose better components for your needs. It has windows 7/8 pro only because it's designed to be used in the office and that requires AD compatibility which only pro and enterprise versions have. The 'pro' gives zero benefit for a gamer. In fact having only two ram slots you're going to have a hard time exceeding home versions memory limitations even (if you would be crazy enough to buy ram for the price of the rest of the machine lol).
You can see how much Dell charges for it's idea of gaming computer, Alienware. The internet is full of 600-700 dollar gaming box instructions (which are better than the Dell) so I'm not going to waste my time listing one to you - it would be a waste of time anyway as we've seen already.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Skuzzy on July 30, 2015, 06:41:22 AM
The H81 chipset will perform as well as the Z97 chipset will, at stock clocks. The only thing missing is the overclocking ability, duel PCI-e 16 lane slots, and some optional items in the Z97 chipset.
When fitted with the same RAM and video card, you will not be able to tell the difference in performance between those two chipsets. 8GB of system RAM will suffice for most games. Certainly enough for Aces High.
Brooke is quite right. For a budget build one would be hard pressed to do better than refurbishing a Dell.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: katanaso on July 30, 2015, 07:04:24 AM
Correct. But I don't ever do that. Also, the Dell already has a CPU much better than in the machine you posted a link to, so think of it as the equivalent of being pre-overclocked.
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It has only two ram slots, one PCI-E x16 slot
Correct. But I don't desire more than 16 GB or more than one graphics card.
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and no advanced storage functionality.
I don't know what you mean.
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It has subpar cooling for a gaming box because it's designed to do light office work.
Incorrect. Also, I have checked with temperature monitors of GPU and CPU during game play. Everything is fine.
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It has an ancient hard drive model from Dell mass purchases 5 years ago.
Don't be daft. It has a Seagate Barracuda, 7200 RPM.
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Everything in it is cheap and low quality.
Incorrect. Intel motherboard (which I trust much more than others), Intel CPU (which I trust much more than others), and name-brand drives. What is cheap is the power supply, but as you will recall from my 1st post above, I replaced that with a Corsair. Also, as you will recall from my 1st post above, those cheap power supplies are very reliable.
One of the applications we have for Dells is to run our DNA synthesizers. Those computers stay in service for years, running 24/7. At least one (if not more) was nearly 10 years old (and still working fine) before we replaced it. If the computer running the synthesizer crashes during a run, it can cost us up to about $30,000 retail worth of product lost, and we have to resynthesize. Also, we occasionally sell these synthesizers. An instrument costs the customer approx. $300,000, and a Dell runs it. If the Dell on such an instrument fails, it costs us up to thousands of dollars to take care of the problem (if we have to fly people around the world to deal with it).
I would not trust a build-it-yourself system for the above uses.
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When you build your own you can choose better components for your needs.
Yes, of course. No one disputes that. It's just that it costs you more.
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It has windows 7/8 pro only because
If you don't want the pro OS, you can get the same computer from the "for home" section of Dell instead of the "for work" section. The "for home" version comes with Windows 10 home and more RAM, and the price is $480 instead of the $500 system I got.
I want the pro version of the OS for my home computer, though. I would pay more to get it. I use my computer for more things.
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Alienware.
I'm not talking about Alienware. Those don't have the same performance/price as what I'm talking about here. They are irrelevant to what I'm saying.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on July 31, 2015, 06:40:28 PM
The other thing is that there are occasionally people I try to recruit into AH who don't have computers capable of gaming, don't yet have the knowledge to shop for or to assemble their own computer, and won't devote any time to learning such a thing. Nor will they go to a place that will build it for them. Nor will they pay $1000 or more for a gaming system.
For these folks, if I get them interested in AH, it reduces the barrier to entry enormously if I can tell them a lower-priced Dell to buy.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on July 31, 2015, 06:49:06 PM
the thing with a dell and other name brand computers is that you cannot really upgrade them later on.
You can't upgrade the CPU or clock speed, true enough.
But you can change to a faster graphics card.
And if you are running into needing a CPU upgrade for gaming, you probably would benefit from faster RAM, faster bus on the motherboard, etc.
What I usually do instead of upgrading parts is just get a new system every 3-5 years for approx. $700 and move the just-replaced one down my stack of other machines (i.e., my former gaming computer becomes the new theater computer, my former theater computer is given away). That $700 is an upgraded graphics card, upgraded CPU, upgraded RAM and bus speed. Now that I have kids, in a few years, I probably will have a larger stack of computers for upgrades to percolate through.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Dragon Tamer on July 31, 2015, 07:22:02 PM
I should mention that I tried to build a system equal to what Brooke specified out of curiosity. I matched his processor and used the absolute cheapest compatible parts to go with it. The only thing that I didn't go cheap on was that hard drive, which I chose a 500GB drive instead of the 160GB that I originally had. I bent the rules and used windows 10 pro since it was $10 cheaper.
The total cost of the system was $503.98. With mail in rebates It was $489.56. Even if I had chosen the cheapest possible HD, it would have only saved another $20. On top of all this is shipping, which I didn't bother calculating, and the time that it would take to build it (at least a two hour job if you do decent work). In addition to the parts that I didn't include (speakers/headphones, heat sink compound) the system would have been at least $550.
Brooke has a pretty good system for a damn good price. Also; while it's true that he can't overclock, he can easily swap out his processor with a newer/more powerful one and it would be just as effective.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Dichotomy on July 31, 2015, 08:26:31 PM
This is a really interesting thread and I've read it without understanding what most of you are talking about so I have an interesting premise.
If I were to walk up to any one of you and say 'I have a thousand dollars and I want a gaming rig built by someone who knows how. It has to have a dvd burner (although I'd prefer two). Budget $300 for a monitor.
Go.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Dragon Tamer on July 31, 2015, 09:22:54 PM
This is a really interesting thread and I've read it without understanding what most of you are talking about so I have an interesting premise.
If I were to walk up to any one of you and say 'I have a thousand dollars and I want a gaming rig built by someone who knows how. It has to have a dvd burner (although I'd prefer two). Budget $300 for a monitor.
Go.
Depends on what you plan on using it for. I assume that since you want two disk burners, that you are using it for some sort of media system.
This is the parts list I threw together on a whim. No particular order to it, just threw it together: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/QTCYZL
This is the parts list with a set of monitors included. Each monitor is just shy of the $300 mark. http://pcpartpicker.com/p/qnLQQ7
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on August 01, 2015, 01:48:14 AM
The other thing is that there are occasionally people I try to recruit into AH who don't have computers capable of gaming, don't yet have the knowledge to shop for or to assemble their own computer, and won't devote any time to learning such a thing. Nor will they go to a place that will build it for them. Nor will they pay $1000 or more for a gaming system.
For these folks, if I get them interested in AH, it reduces the barrier to entry enormously if I can tell them a lower-priced Dell to buy.
For these folks a ready computer may (stress the word may) be a better option. Even then as Skuzzy said any hardware change is risky for them if they don't know what they're doing to begin with.
Which functions of the Windows pro version exactly do you use at home? Are you running active directory / domain at home and if yes, why?
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Skuzzy on August 01, 2015, 07:04:49 AM
Those are not the only reasons to have Pro over Home.
Network backup and restore are not available in Home, nor is hosting a remote desktop session. The remote desktop session is invaluable for me when I am home.
The memory restrictions of home (16GB) vs Pro could be another reason.
Maybe there is a need to run a virtual Windows XP window for applications which work in that environment.
You need to just back away from this thread. You are not adding anything helpful to it. You are just distracting people from a perfectly valid suggestion. People like Brooke are helpful. You are not being helpful. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Dichotomy on August 01, 2015, 09:04:32 AM
Depends on what you plan on using it for. I assume that since you want two disk burners, that you are using it for some sort of media system.
This is the parts list I threw together on a whim. No particular order to it, just threw it together: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/QTCYZL
This is the parts list with a set of monitors included. Each monitor is just shy of the $300 mark. http://pcpartpicker.com/p/qnLQQ7
Thank you Dragon. I've been thinking about upgrading my box for a while but, in all honesty, what I know about hardware would fit in a thimble and leave room. I'll be looking at that list early in January.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: NatCigg on August 01, 2015, 09:38:38 AM
Thank you Dragon. I've been thinking about upgrading my box for a while but, in all honesty, what I know about hardware would fit in a thimble and leave room. I'll be looking at that list early in January.
Black Friday. think black friday. be prepared, you may find something you want at a low price.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Dragon Tamer on August 01, 2015, 10:58:01 AM
Thank you Dragon. I've been thinking about upgrading my box for a while but, in all honesty, what I know about hardware would fit in a thimble and leave room. I'll be looking at that list early in January.
I've saved both of them, if you can't find the list in January, just PM me and I will send you the links again. I may be able to knock some cost off if I knew more specifically what you were planning for the system.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: GSakis on August 01, 2015, 04:52:37 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Spikes on August 01, 2015, 11:37:28 PM
For the umptieth time: A system CAPABLE of 300fps does not need a 300hz monitor in order to be capable to that. Christ.
Yes...that is like advertising a vehicle with a beefy V8 engine that can only use 4 cylinders at any given time.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on August 02, 2015, 05:42:48 PM
It is true that, for the folks I talk about above, I wish a PSU swap was not needed. PSU's are the only things I'm unsatisfied with on Dells, but I understand why they do what they do there and am mollified by the fact that you can swap in a standard ATX12V PSU. Fortunately, putting a PSU into the Dell is very nearly as simple as putting in a graphics card because the cables and plugs are so easy to get to and the plugs won't fit into the wrong socket.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Skuzzy on August 03, 2015, 06:29:28 AM
I understand the business reason behind it. The smaller the supply (power wise), the cheaper it is. When you are supplying product in a commodity business, you do what you have to do.
At least they use standard ATX power supplies. There was a time when they did not do so.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: 38ruk on August 03, 2015, 08:10:17 PM
I guess some H81 H85 H97 and B85 boards will now do non Z overclocking with the latest bios updates . Think intel did this for the G3258. Here is a list that people have had success with unlocking the multi. http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2389948 (http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2389948)
People have pulled off I5-I7 K series overclocking on those boards as well , not endorsing it, just putting it out there.
Title: Re: A $650 system that gives 60 fps
Post by: Brooke on September 25, 2016, 03:34:42 AM
The latest Dell Inspiron Desktops have now gone to proprietary power supplies and are no longer suitable (in my opinion) for gaming.
Just wanted to add this as I have been a proponent of Inspiron Desktops in the past.