Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: mbailey on October 19, 2015, 06:34:26 PM
That poor baby :(
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: WaffenVW on October 19, 2015, 06:53:26 PM
Could be a good thing to get this decided once and for all in a court.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: saggs on October 20, 2015, 12:20:04 AM
Ridiculous.
All the Vans lineup are good designs. (I believe Hitech has an RV-8) I've personally worked on RV-7s and an RV-4, they are solid designs and the kits are well prepared. Vans also has more tech support then any other kit company out there. Just check out www.vansairforce.net As of today there are 9,219 completed and flown RVs. https://www.vansaircraft.com/public/first-flights.htm
90% of GA accidents be they in certified or experimental aircraft are down to human factors. Just because they are called experimental does not mean there are all kinds of wacky crazy aircraft designs flying out there. Because any overtly dangerous design would never make it past an DAR inspection required to receive an airworthiness certificate. Experimental designs, provided they are built to plans, are just as safe as certified designs, they are made with the same materials and processes as certified aircraft. It's just done in a garage/hangar by 1 or 2 people over many months/years, instead of on an assembly line.
There are no FAA "loopholes" there are only FAA regulations. What's with people today calling laws or regulations they disagree with "loopholes"
Hopefully this frivolous lawsuit gets thrown out of court post haste. Have they even gotten the NTSB final report on what caused the accident yet? I doubt it.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: pembquist on October 20, 2015, 12:29:37 AM
There's the rub, the NTSB reports are not admissible. It is terrible that the little girl died but this lawsuit makes it more terrible. Grief makes people mad, in both senses.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: saggs on October 20, 2015, 12:29:47 AM
Basically he goobered up a fuel flow TX with RTV, with caused a fuel blockage, even though his A&P told him not to. :bhead Like I said, human factors.
Tell me again how his incompetent mechanical skills, and inability to follow competent advice are Dick VanGrunsvens fault. Van himself has been a HUGE advocate for greater GA safety, I've read several articles on safety authored by him in EAA publications, one in which he lambasted idiots who buy his kits then dramatically change the design, basically he calls them out as idiots who think they know better then aeronautical engineers who designed the plane.
Also in addition to Vans, they are suing the maker of the fuel flow TX, calling it defective. Because, apparently... ... I guess fuel flow TXers are somehow supposed to work flawlessly, even when they are clogged with silicon. :bhead :bhead :bhead
I just... .... I can't even... *sigh* *deep breath* It's called RTFM MORONS!!
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: WaffenVW on October 20, 2015, 12:48:23 AM
What you're saying kind of lends itself to the plaintiff's case.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Scherf on October 20, 2015, 06:31:50 AM
Cheezus, that NTSB report is short and to the point.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: colmbo on October 20, 2015, 07:42:39 AM
Not only was the owner/pilot an idiot when it came to maintenance practices but his basic stick and rudder skills were lacking as well. What killed the little girl wasn't the engine failure, it was the failure of the pilot to maintain control of the airplane.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: WaffenVW on October 20, 2015, 09:23:33 AM
To me it didn't read like Vans were being sued because their product is lacking or dangerous. They're being sued because they specifically market their kits to idiots like this guy, who then endanger or kill innocent people with it. Kit 'experimental' planes were never intended to be as prolific as they are today by the lawmakers. A revision of the laws could very well be in order.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: colmbo on October 20, 2015, 12:49:26 PM
The suit is BS regardless. Just because the kits are marketed to consumers with minimal or no experience that doesn't mean you can build in a willy-nilly fashion. I'm not up to snuff on all the rules for homebuilding but the builder has to work with the local FAA rep, there are inspections done on the builders work and the builder MUST COMPLY with the regulations relating to building technique and procedure.
This guy would have killed himself in a Cessna, Piper or any other factory built airplane.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: WaffenVW on October 20, 2015, 01:27:04 PM
They're not being sued because he killed himself with it. They're being sued because he killed a little girl with it.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: hitech on October 20, 2015, 01:28:09 PM
Yep utter BS.
BTW there are a number of misleading stats in the article about 20% accidents vs 10% of fleet.
First it assumes all experimental are the same.
2nd it assumes the experimental class is flown the same amount as standard aircraft. My assumption would be that experimental get more hours then standard by a substantial amount.
HiTech
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: WaffenVW on October 20, 2015, 02:07:34 PM
You assume they're making assumptions, and berate those assumed assumptions with more assumptions of your own. Ok.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: hitech on October 20, 2015, 02:27:59 PM
You assume they're making assumptions, and berate those assumed assumptions with more assumptions of your own. Ok.
No I am berating the person who uses stats trying to show or imply that an experimental are more likely to have accidence. When the stats he used are meaningless to that conclusion.
HiTech
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: bustr on October 20, 2015, 02:40:22 PM
This is like suing Cabela's because a family member purchased one of their muzzle loader kits. Then killed themselves and one of their children sitting next to the family member by using smokeless pistol ammunition powder instead of black powder when they fired it the first time. This is a common scenario although not very frequent fortunately.
The only other culpable people might be the AP mechanic and FAA inspector who signed off at every stage. The article says the fuel flow TX was defective and they are also suing that company. With experimental aircraft, do you have to get a sign off when you install that device? This article has to have been released after the accident report for the lawyer to know specifically to include the instrument manufacture. Who would know before the accident report with the pilot being dead at the crash site?
They are suing over the child's death because the mother unfortunately laid there giving CPR to her daughter until the EMT arrived and pronounced her dead. So she wants many pounds of flesh and may never regain the level of sanity she enjoyed before the accident.
Greif and vengeance drive this part of the legal industry. I wonder if the family was contacted first by their lawyer or did they contact the lawyer? Which ever way it went down, the photos in the article were chosen to win the case in the public sphere. The venue has been polluted so to say for a jury pool. And the amount they want, is small enough to suggest the plaintiff is willing to accept an out of court settlement for a lesser amount that won't put the company out of business.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: pembquist on October 20, 2015, 02:51:23 PM
To me it didn't read like Vans were being sued because their product is lacking or dangerous. They're being sued because they specifically market their kits to idiots like this guy, who then endanger or kill innocent people with it. Kit 'experimental' planes were never intended to be as prolific as they are today by the lawmakers. A revision of the laws could very well be in order.
I think you are conflating the plaintiffs argument with the reason Vans is being sued. It seems self evident that the reason they are being sued is that they have deep enough pockets to make it worthwhile.
The notion that Vans targets "idiots" for marketing is just preposterous. At what point is a component, material, or design vendor responsible for the incorrect use of their products as opposed to defect?
One reason this rattles cages is that aviation tends to elevate personal responsibility as proactive decision making and a "buck stops here" mentality are important parts of flying safely.
The builder/pilot was a person, and he made a mistake. He doesn't need to be denigrated, he paid several times over for his mistake. I never met the man but I would suspect that if he is like most other builders he would never want this lawsuit to be attatched to him in anyway.
The laws that regulate experimental amateur built in the USA are unique in the world. They have enabled an industry and helped foster a market that has kept piston single GA from atrophying. Most if not all GA piston innovation in the last 35 years has come about because of the experimental world.
When you write "a revision of the laws could very well be in order" it sounds like you don't have an opinion or knowledge regarding the existing laws but are just kind of throwing it out there.
We are never going to legislate our way into a perfect world, free from tragedy; however we can legislate our way into a world of diminished ambition and potentiality.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: FLS on October 20, 2015, 03:28:21 PM
The article presents the plaintiff's viewpoint. It's about as "fair and balanced" as anything else in the news. The fact that the family can sue is a good thing. It's only bad if they win when they don't have a valid complaint.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: WaffenVW on October 20, 2015, 03:57:32 PM
The laws that regulate experimental amateur built in the USA are unique in the world. They have enabled an industry and helped foster a market that has kept piston single GA from atrophying. Most if not all GA piston innovation in the last 35 years has come about because of the experimental world.
When you write "a revision of the laws could very well be in order" it sounds like you don't have an opinion or knowledge regarding the existing laws but are just kind of throwing it out there.
That right there is my point. When the laws were created home built aircraft was little more than a curiosity, a hobby for a very small group of enthusiasts. Today it's an industry that, according to those statistics, have a 10% share of the total aircraft fleet in the country. When there's one home built plane out of a thousand it is a curiosity. When it's one in ten it is a public safety concern. One thing is for certain, children have no business being anywhere near something classified as 'experimental'. And if it is as you say that these laws are unique to the USA in the world one cannot help but wonder why that is.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: FLS on October 20, 2015, 04:22:39 PM
... And if it is as you say that these laws are unique to the USA in the world one cannot help but wonder why that is.
It's because of our tradition of liberty. We may build high performance machines and play with them. We may make our own decisions. As much as that has been eroded what liberty we still have is still a good thing.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: WaffenVW on October 20, 2015, 04:35:41 PM
I find that slightly amusing, but mostly just sad. Other countries have home built kit planes too, but they're designed to a normal category, not as experimental aircraft. I saw a TV series on TLC or Discovery many years ago where an Englishman built a kit plane at home. Once in a while, at certain stages in the construction a gov official would come and inspect the work he had done and sign off on it. He had to make several corrections if I remember correctly. After he had built the plane he learned to fly in it.
Home built kit planes are not unique to the USA, but the 'experimental' category probably is.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: WaffenVW on October 20, 2015, 04:38:41 PM
Found it.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Shuffler on October 20, 2015, 04:45:58 PM
Could be a good thing to get this decided once and for all in a court.
It is one's choice to buy or not buy a kit plane. Her step-grandfather made that choice. It is one's choice to decide to get into a kit plane... the child's mom made that choice. Seems the people at fault are pointing fingers at everyone else.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: colmbo on October 20, 2015, 05:33:24 PM
but they're designed to a normal category, not as experimental aircraft.
The "experimental" category is a certification status and has little to do with how much experimentation is being done of the aircraft.
The B-24 I flew was licensed in the Experimental category yet it was a factory built aircraft. If the FAA would get of it's butt and create an amateur built category it would take away the scare factor of experimental.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: bustr on October 20, 2015, 06:12:08 PM
Vans has no responsibility for the mental state or capability of the purchaser. To get the plane off the ground, unless he owns a very large tract of land and could have isolated himself. He had to pass face to face inspection of himself by an AP mechanic and an FAA inspector. If the man was a moron as an aviator, those two as professionals would have eventually been aware of it.
This law suite is the same kind of argument that Beretta should be liable for every person killed or harmed with one of their fire arms aside from a manufacturing defect. I doubt the step grandfather was a stupid man. It takes a bit of ability to go through the process of getting a kit into the air. It also took the step grandfather having achieved his private ticket previously to getting into building his kit. That in itself is a baseline of intelligence. Not to long term temperament and attention to details.
The lawyer will have to destroy the step grandfather's memory to his family and friends by convincing a jury the man was a moron who couldn't be trusted in the process of proving Vans targets morons. No moron no case.
Waffen, did you follow the link to the article with the child's picture? I will bet you did, and that was why the picture was included. Normally out of respect for the family you don't post pictures of children that age related to tragedies like this during the first few weeks of the tragedy. So this is a later article to announce the suit after the crash report was released. The jury pool has been polluted in the court of public opinion.
It is an old sad trick if this goes to court and Vans lawyers cannot get a change of venue. And it helps out of court settlements look better than being associated with the picture of that child which the mother had to give permission to be released to the public because the child was under age. If Vans wants to keep it's reputation in tact, destroying the mother by making her look vengeful and frivolous will be the outcome along with showing the step grandfather was not a consciences pilot who killed his grand daughter as a consequence. Settling out of court will leave doubts which could impact sales during an economic downturn. No one will come out of this feeling good about themselves.
It didn't look like this included wrongful death, so the lawsuit would go through a civil process which has a lower bar to meet in proving anything. That may be why the child's picture was included in the article on the off chance. In civil court you do not need a unanimous verdict by all 12 jurors. It's something like 3\4 of the jury to find against you depending on the state. And if you are good at the selection process or hire a good firm who helps you with the process. And in some states the jury gets to have a say in damages side from the initial amount asked for.
This whole thing is going to stink, and more laws will not fix intelligent human beings who are going to do what they want, and kill themselves as a consequence.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: pembquist on October 20, 2015, 07:42:59 PM
Waffen you are insinuating that laws that cover British homebuilts would have prevented this accident. However you have not enumerated any difference in the laws except the difference in design standard. You do not appear to know much about the FAA regulations regarding experimental homebuilt aircraft, you do not appear to know what the laws are in any other country that allows homebuilts beyond what you have gleaned from tv documentary about somebody building a Europa in the UK and yet you feel free to suggest that American laws are somehow retrograde and obsolete.
If we just removed GA entirely from the picture there would be a huge drop in the accident rate so somewhere between that scenario and no regulations whatsoever lies the best compromise. Even with that best compromise you are going to have deaths and injuries, so I would argue that this accident does not mean that you don't have the best compromise already.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: FLS on October 20, 2015, 07:53:25 PM
I didn't think you were. I meant bothered in the sense that you were reading too much into the connotation of 'experimental' when it's just the name of a broad category of aircraft.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: saggs on October 20, 2015, 10:50:29 PM
When it's one in ten it is a public safety concern.
Why, because they are called "experimental" The kit industry is not full of crazy and unsafe designs like you seem to think. Manufactures must get FAA approval to sell a kit, and each completed kit must be signed off by a DAR to receive an airworthiness certificate, and even after that you must fly a 40hr "phase one" time alone in the aircraft before you can legally take passengers. As an A&P mechanic I can tell you that I have seen far more certified aircraft suffer from neglected or improper maintenance then experimentals.
One thing is for certain, children have no business being anywhere near something classified as 'experimental'.
Why... because the word EXPERIMENTAL scares you. There is no magic fairy dust sprinkled by the FAA gods in OK city on Cessnas or Pipers or Cirruses that make them more safe then homebuilts. Would you feel differently the same aircraft was registered in Europe or Canada so that it wasn't called "EXPERIMENTAL".
And if it is as you say that these laws are unique to the USA in the world one cannot help but wonder why that is.
They are not really, Vans and other kit companies sell kits all over the world, and they are all the same design, and all built the same. People can of course deviate from that design, but if in doing so it becomes dangerous, then said airplane would not pass an airworthiness inspection.
WAffenVW...
You really need to get this idea out of your head that one category of aircraft is more dangerous then another just because of an arbitrary name, like I already said, 90% of GA accidents are down to human factors. This one was no different, he did not follow standard maintenance procedures, and he failed to maintain control of aircraft in unpowered flight. Both human factors. Vans is not responsible to ensure that their customers are not morons. That falls under the realm of personal responsibility.
Also remember that the "experimental" category is more then just kits and home builts. Many of the classic warbirds you see are registered as experimental, just to make maintenance easier (hard to find certified parts for many of them).
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: bustr on October 21, 2015, 12:44:28 PM
At least the lawyer's plan to allow a photo of the child had merit if the jury pool will be selected from the UK.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Hetzer7 on October 21, 2015, 04:35:46 PM
Interesting when I first went there the child's and families' pictures were posted. They have been pulled.
The article is after the accident report was released and the plaintiff's lawyer filed suit. A picture of the child was included along with family members but, now only that of the RV10 is there. Still the child's picture had the desired effect on one AH forum reader in the UK. It is a Lawyer's trick to do things like that especially with a willing reporter helping. Public pressure from readers probably got those pictures pulled. Still the damage is done to the local jury pool. This will be a civil case it looks like, which doesn't require the full jury to unanimously find the kit plane manufacturer guilty.
Think of it like those humane society ads that show abused dogs and cats with an actress pressing all of your sympathy buttons with her voice while you watch the animals shiver. So it worked at least for one person living in the UK if you read back through all of this post.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Hetzer7 on October 21, 2015, 05:13:07 PM
I see, yes i saw the picture of the girl as well; they must have pulled it for being too inflammatory I guess
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Oldman731 on October 22, 2015, 09:02:27 AM
Also in addition to Vans, they are suing the maker of the fuel flow TX, calling it defective. Because, apparently... ... I guess fuel flow TXers are somehow supposed to work flawlessly, even when they are clogged with silicon.
In fact, this appears to be the heart of the case. The complaint - after all the cocktail party talk about FAA standards - focuses on whether the fuel transducer had an adequate bypass system, whether it required a special connector sealant, and whether the transducer manufacturer and/or Vans disclosed those requirements to the builder. A&P folks on these boards know more about those things than I do, but if true (and if they're the cause of the engine stoppage), there's nothing remarkable about this lawsuit.
- oldman
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Hetzer7 on October 22, 2015, 11:47:26 AM
In fact, this appears to be the heart of the case. The complaint - after all the cocktail party talk about FAA standards - focuses on whether the fuel transducer had an adequate bypass system, whether it required a special connector sealant, and whether the transducer manufacturer and/or Vans disclosed those requirements to the builder. A&P folks on these boards know more about those things than I do, but if true (and if they're the cause of the engine stoppage), there's nothing remarkable about this lawsuit.
- oldman
I'm an A+P and I can say unreservedly the guy was an idiot to use RTV silicon in a gas application. You don't use silicon on gas. This is Maintenance 101 here. The only place to use RTV on an aircraft that I can think of is to seal little holes or gaps in firewalls, repair a soft seal on engine cooling baffles, etc. You really shouldn't be using any sealant anywhere on a fuel line as it should be all compression seals using flared braided and/or formed lines/AN fittings. At the fuel tank if sealant is needed you use a specialized gas sealant and as little as possible, let the gaskets do most of the work there. Also, if he used Permatex brand RTV then he went against the manufacturer's recommended usage.
Not surprisingly, according to the NTSB the most common form of mechanical failure leading to crashes on experimental category aircraft is engine stoppage due to fuel starvation during takeoff or climb out, exactly what happened here. Almost always the cause is improper maintenance practice and it often happens on the maiden flight or first 10 hours of flight time.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Oldman731 on October 22, 2015, 12:28:03 PM
Thanks! Good to know. But...how would John Q. Citizen know such a thing? Certainly I didn't until I read your post.
- oldman (now better informed)
Simple rule of thumb: If your life depends on it, ask, don't guess.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Hetzer7 on October 22, 2015, 02:52:25 PM
This it what the installation should look like RV10: the electric fuel pump is the lower right larger pump unit looking thing with outlet pointed toward the camera view, and the flowmeter (transducer) is the smaller unit middle left, it is always inline between the pump and the engine. Ok thing of beauty right? nice formed hardlines and braided steel. Dont see any gobs of RTV silicon do ya? where the heck would you do that? fuel tank outlet pipe im guessing??? Anyway thats what I dont get. This guy spent 45000 for the kit, gotta figure at least double that for all the other stuff (engine prop instruments radio nav etc etc etc etc ,PLUS spent 2000 hrs (full year 8 hrs a day) to build it, Flys it:then uses silicon globs like a fourteen year old. Im dumbfounded, seriously
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Randy1 on October 22, 2015, 03:43:03 PM
The RV-10 that went down just south of us a few weeks back just adds to the question has the home built aircraft taken a bad turn. To much hype maybe by the kit sellers maybe?.
The RV-10 that went down just south of us a few weeks back just adds to the question has the home built aircraft taken a bad turn. To much hype maybe by the kit sellers maybe?.
Why would you think the type of aircraft matters in this case? It reads like either someone yanking and banking and flying into the ground or the pilot being disoriented. On a dark night with few lights on the ground you're flying by instruments regardless if the regs deemed it to be VFR or IMC.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: bustr on October 22, 2015, 06:39:12 PM
The RV-10 that went down just south of us a few weeks back just adds to the question has the home built aircraft taken a bad turn. To much hype maybe by the kit sellers maybe?.
Why would you think the type of aircraft matters in this case? It reads like either someone yanking and banking and flying into the ground or the pilot being disoriented. On a dark night with few lights on the ground you're flying by instruments regardless if the regs deemed it to be VFR or IMC.
The type of airplane has nothing to do with the crash. The arrogance of the kit builders is.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Oldman731 on October 22, 2015, 09:42:01 PM
I see, yes i saw the picture of the girl as well; they must have pulled it for being too inflammatory I guess
Am I the UK gentleman he's referring to? If so I feel the need to point out that I spell color without the 'u'. And I did not see any picture of a girl. Not that it would have made any difference.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Vulcan on October 23, 2015, 05:16:08 AM
We talking about another crash. The statement still holds. The builder thought he knew how to build and fly a plane.
Thanks I missed that.
I still don't see how, in your link, the unlicensed pilot in the over - loaded airplane represents kit builders.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Zimme83 on October 23, 2015, 08:08:16 PM
Just FYI: The Experimental category is pretty much the same in Europe as in the US. This is an experimental: (http://veteranflyg.se/images/se-xrn.jpg)
As for home built planes: You need to have an approved supervisor/advisor who follows the entire building process and without a green light from him that your work is up to standard the plane will not fly.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: icepac on October 24, 2015, 09:29:57 AM
I'm not aware of any threaded bolt or coupling that uses RTV as a sealant.
Not only do blobs squeeze in........but any threaded connection usually backs out.
Also..... the RTV changes the torque reading either higher or lower because it can either lubricate the threads or cause binding.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: saggs on October 25, 2015, 04:12:47 AM
I'm not aware of any threaded bolt or coupling that uses RTV as a sealant.
Not only do blobs squeeze in........but any threaded connection usually backs out.
Also..... the RTV changes the torque reading either higher or lower because it can either lubricate the threads or cause binding.
Yup... it's pretty much maintenance 101. Even fuel lube and o-ring lube can cause issues if you get carried away with it.
I'll say it again, it comes down to personal responsibility. If you decide to take it upon yourself to home build an airplane, then you should also be responsible enough to learn what you need to learn in order to do so. It's not like it's that difficult to find the information. Heck buy a copy of AC 43.13, the FAA AMT handbook, and FAR AMT. and you'll have answers to all your questions. The EAA also has an awesome website with tons of webinars for learning sheetmetal, composite, wood, rigging and every other building skill. Making friends with a trustworthy A&P pr an EAA tech adviser is also smart, but also verify everything they tell you. (I know a few A&Ps I wouldn't trust to work on a Tonka Truck.)
Bottom line is to plead ignorance in today's society where information can be literally at your fingertips (ie there is a AC43.13, and FAR smartphone app) is simply not a valid excuse. It's terrible that people had to die because of what can only be described as willful ignorance.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: colmbo on October 25, 2015, 08:19:58 AM
We talking about another crash. The statement still holds. The builder thought he knew how to build and fly a plane.
But Randy the attitude has nothing to do with him building the airplane. I've seen just as much shoddy maintenance from people who have never built an airplane and own production aircraft. (and have a couple of flights that ended in emergency landings due to their maintenance practices --- and no it wasn't me doing the maintenance :D )
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Randy1 on October 25, 2015, 09:05:47 AM
But Randy the attitude has nothing to do with him building the airplane. I've seen just as much shoddy maintenance from people who have never built an airplane and own production aircraft. (and have a couple of flights that ended in emergency landings due to their maintenance practices --- and no it wasn't me doing the maintenance :D )
In the nuclear power plant business, you have to constantlly guard aginist assumptions. The worst of which is the assumption made without conscious thought. In other words making a decision without being aware that you made a decision.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: FLS on October 25, 2015, 12:17:01 PM
In the nuclear power plant business, you have to constantly guard against assumptions. The worst of which is the assumption made without conscious thought. In other words making a decision without being aware that you made a decision.
In other words avoid rushing to conclusions. That's good advice. :D
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: pembquist on October 25, 2015, 01:13:46 PM
In the nuclear power plant business, you have to constantlly guard aginist assumptions. The worst of which is the assumption made without conscious thought. In other words making a decision without being aware that you made a decision.
Why checklists are great.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: hitech on October 26, 2015, 11:06:45 AM
On a side note to the A&P's.
My RV (about 2k hours now do for a new engine) has always a strange issue that we have never been able to resolve.
When running on mechanical full pump only in level cruise some days the fuel pressure gauge will fluctuate from about 22 down to 12 and back up. Turning on the electrical and things are rock steady.
Note the engine has never shown any indication of power change. Except for the time of a real mechanical pump failure. Only time I ever got cleared direct 52F over the center of DFW. No way was I going to fly under the bravo running only on electric.
Things we have tried. 1. Moving electric fuel pump from engine side of fire wall to internal. (was thinking possible vapor lock). 2. Replaced Mechanical pump. 3. Insulated all fuel lines. 4. Replace the sensor. 5. Replaced the gauge. 6. Rebuilt complete induction/servo system along with flow calibration to all cylinders.
Any ideas?
Dale
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: FLS on October 26, 2015, 01:02:11 PM
Did you post in the RV forums?
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: hitech on October 26, 2015, 01:09:13 PM
My RV (about 2k hours now do for a new engine) has always a strange issue that we have never been able to resolve.
When running on mechanical full pump only in level cruise some days the fuel pressure gauge will fluctuate from about 22 down to 12 and back up. Turning on the electrical and things are rock steady.
Note the engine has never shown any indication of power change. Except for the time of a real mechanical pump failure. Only time I ever got cleared direct 52F over the center of DFW. No way was I going to fly under the bravo running only on electric.
Things we have tried. 1. Moving electric fuel pump from engine side of fire wall to internal. (was thinking possible vapor lock). 2. Replaced Mechanical pump. 3. Insulated all fuel lines. 4. Replace the sensor. 5. Replaced the gauge. 6. Rebuilt complete induction/servo system along with flow calibration to all cylinders.
Any ideas?
Dale
Either you didn't say or I missed what exactly the engine is but thats really low fuel pressure to have in an injected motor, IO-360 Lycoming? If so they should run 40-60 psi at the fuel inlet.
For an O-360, fuel pressure should be 12-14 and max. 18psi, and I would check the carb float level tab adjustment; anyway thats where my thinking takes me <S>
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: icepac on October 26, 2015, 09:04:50 PM
If this issue cropped up only after climbing high enough for lower temperature or after running a pretty long while.......but not at first start, I would check if your tank is allowing air in such that it doesn't end up in a partial vacuum.
Just a shot in the dark.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Peanut1 on October 26, 2015, 09:25:43 PM
BTW there are a number of misleading stats in the article about 20% accidents vs 10% of fleet.
First it assumes all experimental are the same.
2nd it assumes the experimental class is flown the same amount as standard aircraft. My assumption would be that experimental get more hours then standard by a substantial amount.
HiTech
Uh.... rule 5 0r six???? forget what one lol
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: saggs on October 27, 2015, 12:51:53 AM
If this issue cropped up only after climbing high enough for lower temperature or after running a pretty long while.......but not at first start, I would check if your tank is allowing air in such that it doesn't end up in a partial vacuum.
Just a shot in the dark.
My first thought as well, check your fuel tank vents.
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: hitech on October 27, 2015, 11:51:06 AM
Either you didn't say or I missed what exactly the engine is but thats really low fuel pressure to have in an injected motor, IO-360 Lycoming? If so they should run 40-60 psi at the fuel inlet.
For an O-360, fuel pressure should be 12-14 and max. 18psi, and I would check the carb float level tab adjustment; anyway thats where my thinking takes me <S>
LYC IO-360-A2A
Yes it's really low but that is why it almost has to be false reading because there is no power change. When electric is on the gauge is steady, but no difference in engine sound in any way.
Also remember it rhythmically cycles. (6 - 10 sec range).
The plugged vent would make since except I would think you would see some type of engine change with that low of a drop.
Also remember it has been doing this for more than 10 years and 2000 hours.
HiTech
Title: Re: I am beginnng to see red
Post by: Skyguns MKII on October 27, 2015, 12:21:24 PM
Yes it's really low but that is why it almost has to be false reading because there is no power change. When electric is on the gauge is steady, but no difference in engine sound in any way.
Also remember it rhythmically cycles. (6 - 10 sec range).
The plugged vent would make since except I would think you would see some type of engine change with that low of a drop.
Also remember it has been doing this for more than 10 years and 2000 hours.