General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rpm on October 31, 2015, 06:52:33 AM
Title: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: rpm on October 31, 2015, 06:52:33 AM
A Russian airliner carrying 224 passengers and crew crashed in Egypt's Sinai peninsula on Saturday, the Egyptian civil aviation authority said, and a security officer who arrived at the scene said most of the passengers appeared to have been killed.
The Airbus A 321, operated by Russian airline Kogalymavia,was flying from the Sinai Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh to St Petersburg in Russia when it went down in a desolate mountainous area of central Sinai soon after daybreak, the aviation ministry said.
The wreckage was found in the Al Hassana area of central Sinai, about 50 kilometers (31 miles) from where Egyptian security forces have been waging a fierce campaign against militants in northern Sinai that have pledged allegiance to the Islamic State. An Egyptian investigation team has reached the crash site and started searching for the black boxes, civil aviation authorities said in a statement.
"I now see a tragic scene. A lot of dead on the ground and many who died whilst strapped to their seats," the officer, who requested anonymity, said.
"The plane split into two, a small part on the tail end that burned and a larger part that crashed into a rock. We have extracted at least 100 bodies and the rest are still inside."
Russia launched air raids against Syrian opposition groups including Islamic State on Sept. 30. Civil Aviation Minister Mohamed Hossam Kemal was quoted in a cabinet statement as saying it was too soon to determine the cause of the crash, but security sources said there was no indication the Airbus had been shot down or blown up.
The Airbus A321, operated by Russia’s Metrojet, was descending at about 6,000 feet per minute before communication with the flight was lost, 23 minutes after leaving Sharm El Sheik International Airport, according to Flightradar.com, which tracks flight routes. The plane had reached a cruising altitude of 31,000 feet, Egypt’s Civil Aviation Ministry said in an e-mailed statement on Saturday.
At that altitude, it is “very unusual for something to happen,” Paul Hayes, director of safety at Ascend Worldwide Ltd., a London-based company that gathers air data for insurers, said.
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: SysError on October 31, 2015, 08:07:09 AM
By contract (or law I guess), do the black boxes have to go back to Airbus or can the Russians just keep them?
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: ghi on October 31, 2015, 10:31:38 AM
This people going in vacation in Egypt and most of middle east are naïve. Maybe just an accident ,terrorist attack or shot down by globalist reptilian illuminati because Putin takes a stand against their apocalyptic world enslaving agenda, just my thoughts.
"ISIS has claimed responsibility for downing a Russian jet" video released soon after incident, but looks fishy; http://en.alalam.ir/news/1754957
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: Meatwad on October 31, 2015, 11:54:43 AM
ISIS claims responsibility over anything even if they didnt do it.
"ISIS claims responsibility over Dennys serving eggs sunny side up when they were ordered as scrambled"
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: cpxxx on October 31, 2015, 11:58:32 AM
Video was of that the 747 crashing in Afghanistan. They're lying of course. It was too high for MANPAD to reach it. So unless they happened to have a Buk or something similar it's all propaganda.
We'll soon see when they replay the CVR and FDR. More likely loss of control for some reason.
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: 100Coogn on October 31, 2015, 12:01:05 PM
Video was of that the 747 crashing in Afghanistan. They're lying of course. It was too high for MANPAD to reach it. So unless they happened to have a Buk or something similar it's all propaganda.
We'll soon see when they replay the CVR and FDR. More likely loss of control for some reason.
I don't know much, but .... 747 has 4 engines, the plane in video is actually twinjet and I read about MANPADS going to 36,000 ft;
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: rpm on October 31, 2015, 01:37:35 PM
Is it just me or have there been a lot of Airbus incidents lately?
It's just you.
Quote
The Oct. 31 crash of Metrojet flight 9268, now confirmed by Airbus, was only the third hull loss of an Airbus A321-200 and the worst accident so far involving the type.
In 2010 an Airblue A321 crashed into the side of a mountain during a poor weather approach to Islamabad. All 152 on board died. The only other A321 hull losses affected a TransAsia Airways A321-100. The aircraft, delivered in 1996, hit a utility vehicle on the runway while landing in Tainan/Taiwan injuring two construction workers. The aircraft was damaged beyond repair.
Other recent A320 family accidents include the Dec. 28, 2014, crash of Indonesia AirAsia flight 8501 for which major speed and altitude fluctuations were reported before contact was lost. There have been 34 hull losses for the A320 family, according to the Aviation Safety Network.
Compare that to the Boeing 737 family that has had 73 fatal crashes. http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b737.htm
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: MiloMorai on October 31, 2015, 01:50:53 PM
Compare that to the Boeing 737 family that has had 73 fatal crashes. http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b737.htm
I'm not sure if you're purposely being silly or if you're really that uneducated?
First off the "A320 family" is like the 737 family, that being several models in that family (319, 320, 321)
The Airbus A320 family first start in 1988 with first deliver and the accidents and incidents recorded are 88 aviation occurrences, including 33 hull loss accidents with a total of 1,102 fatalities as of April 2015.
As compared to in the same time period of each respect A320 family and 737 Classic family of jets, 50 hull losses have been recorded of the Boeing 737 Classic(-300/-400/-500) series aircraft have occurred as of Sep 2015., with a total of 1,174 fatalities. This is roughly in the same measured time period (back to 1988)
One other fact to ponder, The 737 has twice as many sold since inception in 1967 and every 5 seconds (I think texans can count ;)) there are two Boeing 737's taking off or landing somewhere in the world, on an average.
More facts to ponder:
The 737 design is 20 years older as a whole. There are lots more older less-safe 737s being flown by corner-cutting budget airlines in third-world countries with 40+ year old aircraft.
The 8,104 737s have, on average, flown many times more cycles than the 6,171 for Airbus A320.
And yes, while the A320 family is enviable, so is Boeing's.
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going. :)
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: Busher on October 31, 2015, 07:25:53 PM
:headscratch: Wonders if Rip has ever flown a Boeing (or an Airbus for that matter) or weather he just has a stake in Boeing success. They are both built with minimum cost in mind (both construction and operating costs). They both have Government approved Minimum Equipment Lists that are as thick as the New York telephone directory. That's the Manual that permits dispatch with certain listed systems not functioning properly (or at all). ALPA (the Airline Pilots Association) argues for very limited MEL's - the Manufacturer and the Airlines want really thick MEL`s. Guess who wins!
Trust me...they`re all junk.
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: ghi on October 31, 2015, 07:57:42 PM
maybe ISIS's anti aircraft condom bomb works ;
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: MiloMorai on October 31, 2015, 10:23:49 PM
One other fact to ponder, The 737 has twice as many sold since inception in 1967 and every 5 seconds (I think texans can count ;)) there are two Boeing 737's taking off or landing somewhere in the world, on an average.
The 8,104 737s have, on average, flown many times more cycles than the 6,171 for Airbus A320.
2 x 6171 = 13342 2 x 8104 = 16208
:rolleyes: Boeing employees can't multiply - divide.
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: rpm on October 31, 2015, 10:54:22 PM
:headscratch: Wonders if Rip has ever flown a Boeing (or an Airbus for that matter) or weather he just has a stake in Boeing success. They are both built with minimum cost in mind (both construction and operating costs). They both have Government approved Minimum Equipment Lists that are as thick as the New York telephone directory. That's the Manual that permits dispatch with certain listed systems not functioning properly (or at all). ALPA (the Airline Pilots Association) argues for very limited MEL's - the Manufacturer and the Airlines want really thick MEL`s. Guess who wins!
Trust me...they`re all junk.
Actually, they're not. I have a brother in law who was a certified FAA airframe and power plant inspector for a number of years at American. He's been inside and outside of both. His famous quote is "Where Boeing uses rivets and glue, Airbus uses only glue" (Those of you in the assembly industry knows what glue means) If you heard the stories he told me (from a neutral perspective, he's not vested in either company) you'd fly Boeing only too.
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: Ripsnort on October 31, 2015, 11:47:07 PM
You can stop being a Boeing apologist. I gave the links/quotes. Extrapolate what you want to spin out of it.He's an office drone at Boeing.
Today I am.
I was a Machinst, then Jig builder, then Flat pattern Tool Maker, then Tool Designer and add NC Programmer, Engineering Applications Analyst, and now a Senior Project Managers (office drone).
I've probably accomplished more in 30 years than you could have possibly imagined doing yourself in 2 life times. :)
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: rpm on November 01, 2015, 01:10:15 AM
So everything I said is correct. :)
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: Zimme83 on November 01, 2015, 06:13:27 AM
Actually, they're not. I have a brother in law who was a certified FAA airframe and power plant inspector for a number of years at American. He's been inside and outside of both. His famous quote is "Where Boeing uses rivets and glue, Airbus uses only glue" (Those of you in the assembly industry knows what glue means) If you heard the stories he told me (from a neutral perspective, he's not vested in either company) you'd fly Boeing only too.
And still it was the 737 that fell out of the sky w/o anyone knowing why...
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: Slamfire on November 01, 2015, 07:12:33 PM
Better watch your tone rip, he's is a pretty big wheel down at the Piggly Wiggly. :airplane:
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: Slamfire on November 01, 2015, 07:13:54 PM
Better watch your tone rip, he's is a pretty big wheel down at the Piggly Wiggly. :airplane:
LOL!
Where is that FW title page when you need it? ;)
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: SysError on November 02, 2015, 08:13:26 AM
Does anyone know if the 1985 accident was about riveting issues within the tail? It is not clear which accident they are talking about.
"Analysts have speculated about a possible link to a tail-strike accident the plane had in 2001, which caused another air disaster that killed more than 500 people in 1985, but Metrojet said the aircraft had been fully repaired and was in “good condition”.
Does anyone know if the 1985 accident was about riveting issues within the tail? It is not clear which accident they are talking about.
"Analysts have speculated about a possible link to a tail-strike accident the plane had in 2001, which caused another air disaster that killed more than 500 people in 1985, but Metrojet said the aircraft had been fully repaired and was in “good condition”.
If you're referring to the JAL B747 where the tail separated, riveting had nothing to do with it. Some rivets had been used to install a doubler plate that was used to cover unapproved maintenance on damage caused by a landing tail strike.
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: Busher on November 02, 2015, 09:13:42 AM
Actually, they're not. I have a brother in law who was a certified FAA airframe and power plant inspector for a number of years at American. He's been inside and outside of both. His famous quote is "Where Boeing uses rivets and glue, Airbus uses only glue" (Those of you in the assembly industry knows what glue means) If you heard the stories he told me (from a neutral perspective, he's not vested in either company) you'd fly Boeing only too.
I did.
I am not talking about the structures Rip. The pressure vessel, wings, tail etc are all over built. They have to be so the airplane has a reasonable service life. It's the systems - avionics, hydraulics, electrics, flaps, flight controls that could be far better built on both manufacturer's airplanes. (forgive the choice of example but google "rudder hard over" accidents).
Respectfully Rick
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: Zimme83 on November 02, 2015, 09:21:02 AM
Does anyone know if the 1985 accident was about riveting issues within the tail? It is not clear which accident they are talking about.
"Analysts have speculated about a possible link to a tail-strike accident the plane had in 2001, which caused another air disaster that killed more than 500 people in 1985, but Metrojet said the aircraft had been fully repaired and was in “good condition”.
It has been a few accidents with in flight break up due to structural failure on aircrafts that has suffered a tail strike previously, JAL 123 and China Airlines 006 (both B747:s). In both cases it took several years from the tail strike to the structural failure. The fact that it happen during ascend to cruise altitude give some support to the theory. The other explanation is a bomb on board but little evidence point in that direction.
Russian media outlet LifeNews claims that more than 200 fragments of human remains from approximately 150 people have arrived in St Petersburg. According to sources, there was a significant difference in the cause of death between passengers at the front and the rear of the aircraft. Those at the front suffered 'blunt force trauma of the chest, abdomen and pelvis with multiple fractures of upper and lower limbs with tears to the internal organs. Deaths occurred due to acute blood loss, shock and open head injuries.' Those at the rear of aircraft suffered 'explosive trauma with multiple burns over 90 per cent of their soft tissues'. Passengers at the back had shrapnel injuries and were peppered with metal particles.
Quote
Egyptian authorities are interrogating the driver and staff of a catering company which supplied food to the aircraft on the morning of the aircraft.
The food trolleys are wheeled into the galley at the rear of the aircraft and stowed just in front of the rear pressure bulkhead.
Aviation sources have pointed to damage in the rear section of the plane which showed evidence of 'the fuselage skin peeling outwards possibly indicative of a force acting outwards from within' such as a bomb.
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: NatCigg on November 03, 2015, 05:22:25 PM
scary read. flight tracker showed the plane flying upwards before going down.
About same story on RT , and this I find interesting, US satellite detected a heat flash in moment of explosion; ISIS video could be real;
"An unnamed US official said on Tuesday that before the Russian passenger airliner crashed in Sinai, an American infrared satellite had detected a heat flash in the same vicinity, indicating that an explosion may have occurred onboard.
“The flash, which was observed by the satellite, that’s a piece of evidence, but against it’s inconclusive. It can also occur if there was a missile attack, a fire onboard or an explosion onboard,” retired flight commander, Sultan Mahmoud Hali, told RT.
ISIS could move in Egypt some of this SA-5, were missing from Libya in 2011; (http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00776/TH09_OPED_LIBYA-CON_776683f.jpg)
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: rpm on November 03, 2015, 06:23:57 PM
I was just going to post the same thing, sort of. CBS Evening News reported US satellite recorded 2 heat flashes. One at the moment of breakup, the other at impact with the ground. But it did not record a rocket launch. Starting to sound more and more like a bomb. Only thing missing is to hear they found explosives residue.
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: ghi on November 03, 2015, 08:00:00 PM
Title: Re: Russian airliner with 224 aboard crashes in Sinai
Post by: rpm on November 06, 2015, 12:01:03 PM
Russian President Vladimir Putin has agreed to suspend Russian air traffic with Egypt until the cause of the crash of Metrojet Flight 9268 can be determined, the Kremlin said Friday.