General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Schro on November 17, 2015, 10:19:58 AM
Title: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: Schro on November 17, 2015, 10:19:58 AM
I need some help with twin engine fighters. Im interested in learning the Me410 primarily. However, I have no clue as to how one flies twin engine fighters.
Are they turn fighters? Energy fighters? I just need some explanation on them.
Thanks.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: Lusche on November 17, 2015, 10:22:16 AM
No, your wrong the, 410 consistently loses to bricks.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: pembquist on November 17, 2015, 11:20:25 AM
Seriously though, the 410 is not much of a fighter plane. You should try the Mossie or the p38 instead. I'm not sure if in this game there is anything generalizable outside of specific model of plane that sets twin engine fighters apart from single engine. Between the Mossie and the P38 for instance there is a lot of difference.
If you really want to fight with the 410 despite or because of its limitations than somebody probably has something intelligent to say, but it sounds masochistic to me.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 17, 2015, 01:38:41 PM
P-38: High altitude B&Z fighter. Pretty good at that. Terrible low and slow. Can't turn much. Mosquito VI: Good low-medium alt fighter-bomber. Decent turner, but sluggish and slow climb/accelleration. Awesome firepower. 110G: Same as Mosquito except slower, but turns a little better. Excellent cockpit views. 110C: Turns very good, but slow. Not much firepower. 410: The best firepower in the game, but also the worst turner in the game. Slow climb. Medium speed (not enough to get you out of trouble). The Hornisse is a death bringer to bomber formations, but without little friends to keep the escorts away it's also a death bringer to its own crew.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on November 17, 2015, 02:05:30 PM
One question I've always had - and I'll, right up front, state that NO, I don't have much twin stick time.
Is there a way to take advantage of differential throttling? It seems like, if the 109 can do a nose-point with rudder effectively enough to get a snap shot now and again, P-38 should be able to do so in spades with a boot of rudder and engine off, one side, the other on WEP.
I'll add, it is possible to have great fun with a 410. The penultimate time I sortied one, I shredded 4 bombers and was head for the deck to abscond with my ill-gotten gains. Then some clown called Fugitive showed up and shattered the dream. Last time I sortied one, some hyper enthusiastic clown in a pony collided with me. I landed some 12.7 hits on him but, generally, the rear armament isn't very useful.
And, of course, it's a very cool-looking brick, to be fair. You'll look good, even if you're going down more often than Alanis Morrisette in a theater.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: FLS on November 17, 2015, 02:52:58 PM
Differential throttle is useful post stall or whenever you get slow enough to lose yaw stability. Otherwise you're likely better off with the thrust.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: Randy1 on November 17, 2015, 03:13:03 PM
P-38: High altitude B&Z fighter. Pretty good at that. Terrible low and slow. Can't turn much. . . .
I have to disagree with you here.
The only real fault the P-38 has is amount of attention it gets from the reds. Put ten planes of different kinds on the red and green side. At least five of the ten reds will jump the P-38. That though can be a benefit since the red over fixates on the P-38 and becomes weak at that point.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on November 17, 2015, 03:38:04 PM
Differential throttle is useful post stall or whenever you get slow enough to lose yaw stability. Otherwise you're likely better off with the thrust.
That makes a lot of sense. Weathervane effect will override yaw moment due to thrust diff is what i'm hearing... until you get slow. At that point, you might be cooked anyway, but conceivably the ability to point the nose in an unexpected manner might be a life saver. Perhaps on a wingover, at the top..? But I'd guess no better than using the pitch authority. Of course, P-38 is notorious as a roper to begin.
No wonder you're staff.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 17, 2015, 03:42:58 PM
The only real fault the P-38 has is amount of attention it gets from the reds. Put ten planes of different kinds on the red and green side. At least five of the ten reds will jump the P-38. That though can be a benefit since the red over fixates on the P-38 and becomes weak at that point.
Ok, what is it you disagree with specifically? I tend to use the 109G-6 as a yardstick since it is quite possibly the most...
...fighter of WWII. A P-38J/L will defeat a 109G-6 up high, but down low the 109 is superior. The 109 turns much better and climbs better, and is about as fast down low.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: The Fugitive on November 17, 2015, 03:46:57 PM
The 38 is awesome at the rope due to the counter rotating props, no yaw when slow and can drop to either side as needed. Del had a split throttle and said the only time it made a difference was in a hammerhead type maneuver.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: FLS on November 17, 2015, 03:53:57 PM
That makes a lot of sense. Weathervane effect will override yaw moment due to thrust diff is what i'm hearing... until you get slow. At that point, you might be cooked anyway, but conceivably the ability to point the nose in an unexpected manner might be a life saver. Perhaps on a wingover, at the top..? But I'd guess no better than using the pitch authority. Of course, P-38 is notorious as a roper to begin.
A wingover doesn't rotate, you're probably thinking of a hammerhead or stall turn. The P-38 will hammerhead with either rudder or throttle. Both together can be too much. Any twin is likely similar.
Generally the engines are so much closer to the CG than the rudder they don't create a useful amount of yaw. However in a spin you can stop and start the spin at will, reverse spin direction, and pick your exit direction.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: morfiend on November 17, 2015, 04:43:53 PM
The 38 is awesome at the rope due to the counter rotating props, no yaw when slow and can drop to either side as needed. Del had a split throttle and said the only time it made a difference was in a hammerhead type maneuver.
He told me he could do real cool doughnuts on the runways with the dual throttles!!!! :aok
:salute
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: mbailey on November 17, 2015, 06:03:16 PM
Hey there Schrod, if you ever see me on and want to wing in 38s let me know....I've been known to bend one here and there :D Be happy to help.
Sorry can't help much with the Luft (scrap) iron
I'll turn all day in the weeds with a 109, one of the AC in game I'm not overly worried about low and slow.
And Randy is right, I swear every red guy within site of you wants your hide
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 17, 2015, 07:10:26 PM
It's like that in all the twins.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on November 17, 2015, 07:44:45 PM
It's simply because nothing looks cooler than seeing parts separating from a 38.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: Randy1 on November 18, 2015, 07:25:51 AM
Ok, what is it you disagree with specifically? I tend to use the 109G-6 as a yardstick since it is quite possibly the most...
...fighter of WWII. A P-38J/L will defeat a 109G-6 up high, but down low the 109 is superior. The 109 turns much better and climbs better, and is about as fast down low.
The specs agree with you but throw in the different player's skill and the specs go out the window. Nothing is ever quite black and white.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 18, 2015, 07:58:56 AM
I need some help with twin engine fighters. Im interested in learning the Me410 primarily. However, I have no clue as to how one flies twin engine fighters.
Are they turn fighters? Energy fighters? I just need some explanation on them.
Thanks.
Twin engine fighters need to begin most engagements with altitude. IE, when you are attacking a base, you want to be higher than most fighters.
Unless you are just screwing around, you don't want to enter fights under 5K.
Preferably, it is best to enter fights at 12K or higher.
Fly them smoothly
The 110 is actually a great turning plane and can actually turn inside 109Ks and P51s. But that takes ACM, practice, and experience.
I'd recommend flying these planes as smoothly as possible. The P38 can generate a tremendous amount of E in a short period of time.
I'd recommend learning to fly the p38J first before you fly other 2 engine planes.
The P38J and L cannot turn inside any 109s from a technical standpoint, but you can always catch the pilot off guard and fly your plane better. In most cases, especially in the MA, it's all about positioning and timing. Like for example, you could have a 109K or p51 diving on you, if you Barrel roll defense quickly while they are blacking out with too much speed or you force an overshoot, or you pull a tighter emilmann (sp?) on the first merge and catch them off guard for a quick snap shot, you can win the engagement. Also, you have to prepare your ACM and perform moves before you think you should since they lack roll rate. You need to be one step ahead of your opponent.
At slow speeds the p38 is decent, like I said, it can generate E very quickly, so if you get into a slow scissors, ease up on the stick, try to get higher than your opponent in the scissors and you might be able to pull off a loop over the top of your opponent for a shot. It takes a lot of practice though.
twin engine planes cannot dive too well, therefore you need to learn how to spiral dive and use throttle over the top of your opponents. This will keep your plane from compressing while also keeping your E sustainable. Use flaps during fights and use flaps to get that nose up. Flaps are very important in 2 engine planes. They can greatly enhance your vertical performance.
I'd recommend flying the P38J. It is decently fast, can escape from most planes, can turn almost as good, but not as good as a 109 in the low fights, so you can out turn most aircraft in the game. It is very balanced.
I recommend that if you want to fight with 2 engine planes, you learn E management, Rope tactics, spiral climb rope tactics opposite of the other players torque, E reading of your opponent, patients, A HUGE EMPHASIS ON SA, and understanding of ACM and how to control fights. Also, I'd recommend fighting with friendlies so you do not get ganged.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 18, 2015, 09:11:55 AM
The specs agree with you but throw in the different player's skill and the specs go out the window. Nothing is ever quite black and white.
Pointless to argue about plane performance if pilot skill isn't equal.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: Triton28 on November 18, 2015, 03:19:05 PM
The slower you are the more differential throttle makes a difference. After reading some historical accounts of 38 pilots using it in evasive situations, I tried it in game and found it can make a difference in throwing off the aim of someone on your 6, but it's subtle and probably best left to last ditch efforts. Hammerheads are quick and clean, as long as you time it correctly and use the appropriate amount of elevator input to keep from washing out.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: DaveBB on November 18, 2015, 05:10:06 PM
Just because it's legal for you to get married now doesn't mean you have to flaunt it in my face by flying a P-38 all over the place.
The best way to fly a P-38 is to hit enter three times, select a P-51 in the hangar with 50% fuel, climb to 10k, cruise at 400mph and hunt everything co-alt and lower.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: BaldEagl on November 18, 2015, 06:38:24 PM
The only real fault the P-38 has is amount of attention it gets from the reds. Put ten planes of different kinds on the red and green side. At least five of the ten reds will jump the P-38.
And that's because they all learned from experience "Easy Kill".
Most people can't fly a P-38 (or any twin engine fighter) very well.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: cobia38 on November 19, 2015, 06:09:35 AM
Just because it's legal for you to get married now doesn't mean you have to flaunt it in my face by flying a P-38 all over the place.
The best way to fly a P-38 is to hit enter three times, select a P-51 in the hangar with 50% fuel, climb to 10k, cruise at 400mph and RUN from everything.
fixed it for you :aok
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: Randy1 on November 19, 2015, 06:24:15 AM
Pointless to argue about plane performance if pilot skill isn't equal.
My point being using 190s as an example is that a majority of 190 players have limited skills. Don't get me wrong, there are many good 190 players but they are in the minority. Same can be said for the P-51.
Every time I switch to a 51 as an example I find myself leaning on the speed in a short amount of time.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 20, 2015, 01:17:46 PM
Strange, I don't remember using the 190 as an example...
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: bozon on November 20, 2015, 01:27:28 PM
It saddens me the poor rep that twin engine fighters got. The P-38 used to be a respected fighter, now reduced to a kamikaze bomber.
Both the 38 and the mossie are much better fighters than the credit they get. The 38 has relatively poor deck performance, but it goes up in ranking very fast as altitude increase. It does have issues at very high altitudes, above 20k, but that is rarely relevant to the main arena. The mosquito is the opposite - it has very respectable perfoamnce at deck level, but falls behind rapidly with altitude. Still, below 10k it is a very capable fighter even against the late war planes, but one has to remember that it is a 1943 plane after all. So, not top dog, but far FAR from a bad fighter. Against its contemporaries, it is a devil.
They thing is that these planes are experts planes. One has to be vary familiar with them and adapt in style in order to succeed. The 38 is easy to fly thanks to its counter rotating props and very effective flaps that deplots below 250 mph, but fighting with it takes skill. The mosquito is a wild beast that has to be tamed. It is not easy to control at slow speeds and has many asymetries between left and right - so in order to fly it on the edge one has to learn it twice.
Generally, all the twins share that same basic principal - they are formidable in offense thanks to good frontal visibility, and heavy nose armament, and they are poor in defense against BnZ due to their size. A lucky hit from a BnZer, even if it does not kill you, is likely to spoil your sortie with a smoking engine, or a shot off aileron. For this reason, all the twin must absolutely deny the shots of any attaker and cannot wait till he is 600 yard out to start evasives. This means SA has to be higher and you have to plan farther ahead. Someone above mentioned the 38 being a favorite target - this is absolutely true and true for the other twins as well. The rule of thumb when flying a mossie/38/110/410 is that every con within d3.0 is going straight for you! You cannot ignore enemies even in a furball with many friendlies around, because the bandits are blind to everything except you.
My advice is simply to fly and learn these planes - but expect it to take some time till you get good results. It may help to find someone who knows these planes and wing with him to speed the learning up a bit. You will find that the 38 is overall the best twin fighter. The 110 is more challanging and the 410 is a dog. I am sorry, but the 410 is very difficult as a fighter. Some very dedicated players could give a good fight in a 410 (Torquilla), but that is more them than the plane I am afraind. The Mosquito is totally awesome and unique, but the most complex of the twins. Be careful when looking at its performance chart because these were plotted for weights that suggest they include bombs in the bay... If you want to know more about the mosquito, I have a link to a guide in my sig below.
Hail the twins and vote for Beaufighters and Whirlwinds in the next poll! :rock
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: Randy1 on November 20, 2015, 01:43:37 PM
Bozon :aok
Maybe good way to put it. If fly a twin engine plane, then you need twice the SA as a single engine plane.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 20, 2015, 04:05:15 PM
Randy, I still didn't use the 190 as an example...
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 20, 2015, 04:34:41 PM
Randy, I still didn't use the 190 as an example...
Given the point, the P38J is actually a much better plane than the 109G6. The only thing the G6 can do is turn better in a slow speed stall fight. Other than that, the G6 would only have the advantage if it started with the a higher alt. On a straight nose on nose duel, the P38 would more than likely be able to pull off the rope on the merge, however if the fight got slow in a rolling scissors, the G6 would win.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 20, 2015, 05:20:45 PM
At low alt the 109G-6 is just as fast, climbs better and turns better. The only thing the P-38 has is post stall stability, which is a genuine asset I grant you, but a difficult one to exploit. At high altitude the P-38 is a much better fighter. As I said.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 20, 2015, 05:43:36 PM
Mediocre means it does everything OK. In the right hands the G-6 can dance with the very best dog fighters. Against a P-38 this fight would have been much shorter and more one-sided.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 20, 2015, 05:59:41 PM
At low alt the 109G-6 is just as fast, climbs better and turns better. The only thing the P-38 has is post stall stability, which is a genuine asset I grant you, but a difficult one to exploit. At high altitude the P-38 is a much better fighter. As I said.
Ehh, the P-38 has better acceleration and can typically extend away from the G-6 depending on the distance, especially if there is room to dive. Also, the G6 doesn't climb better in the vertical E climb. The P-38J handles E exuberantly better. So, if you fly the P38j smoothly you can gain an E advantage and possibly pull a loop over the top. If the P-38 gains the E advantage in any part of the fight its pretty much over.
Now the G-14 is a different story with a bit more powerful engine.
Edit: I'll watch that when I'm infront of comp. Cannot view on phone.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 20, 2015, 06:22:21 PM
No, acceleration and climb rate are two sides of the same coin. Climbing is accelerating in the vertical. Two different planes with the same climb rate tend to have the same low speed acceleration. If they also share a similar top speed their acceleration tend to be similar across the entire speed range.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 20, 2015, 06:31:27 PM
Those are from Gonzo's excellent site btw.
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 20, 2015, 07:21:35 PM
I don't think charts really represent a fight. E retainment has a lot to do with fighting and those charts are standard ratios. The P38 retains E much more quickly and it can climb in the vertical straight up better. Those are very important assets in a fight.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 20, 2015, 08:14:49 PM
I'm not knocking the G6 in any way. I fly 109s for a living in AH. I much prefer the G14 for any given scenario. I just believe that the P38 is an overall better fighter than the G6 for a few E related and performance issues, like not having tourque in a right hand spiral climb and the lift the P38 can achieve in a vertical zoom climb. I have 11 yrs experience in a lot of different planes I just know how they feel.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 20, 2015, 08:57:00 PM
Violator, it's physics, not magic. The 109G-6 and P-38J/L are virtually equal in acceleration, and the 109 climbs better at low alt. The P-38 will accelerate faster in a dive, but that is of limited use at low alt.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 20, 2015, 10:29:16 PM
Violator, it's physics, not magic. The 109G-6 and P-38J/L are virtually equal in acceleration, and the 109 climbs better at low alt. The P-38 will accelerate faster in a dive, but that is of limited use at low alt.
No, its a video game. Planes can perform to a certain envelope in AH. With 2 equal pilots the P38J specifically is going to win the majority of the time. Your charts do not gaurantee people's ability to maintain E and the G6 doesn't hold it as well. The P38 uses E better than the G6 and the P38j can loop beyond the G6s range to gain snap shot. Also, the P38 will climb much higher much quicker using spiral climbs above the runway than the g6 will flying at Shift X climb speed. Look I understand that you are making a decent arguement and obviously you are german guy. But you've been here since 2015? According to your profile. I've been in AH since 2005 and have talked c%&t here on the BBs for 8 years. I fly 109s as my main ride and the G14 is my favorite plane in the game. I don't even know what your ingame name is. But I do know how the planes fly and how to be successful in almost every plane in AH. And I know which planes should win based on plane performance and which planes won't.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 20, 2015, 11:17:10 PM
A computer game modeling physics. The P-38 doesn't have any spells it can use to magically out climb a 109G-6 below 20k. I've been playing AH since 2002, mostly in 109s. Every time I take a break I end up with a new handle, but that's irrelevant. I can only say "the 109G-6 will beat the P-38 at low alt" so many times before it becomes repetitive. You obviously have your own opinion and you're sticking to it. That's fine. You're wrong... but that's fine. :)
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: Karnak on November 21, 2015, 01:40:28 AM
Bf109F and later, and the Ki-84, were the fighters I had the most trouble with in the Mossie VI. Probably La-7s after that. Late Spitfires should, by performance numbers, have been as bad or worse than the 109s and 84, but their pilots are usually so bad as to mitigate their advantages. Generally American and Italian fighters are no better than an even fight.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: bozon on November 21, 2015, 07:31:48 AM
Performance charts lie. It is as simple as that - read them, enjoy them, then throw them out. They measure performance in a part of the envelope which is rarely relevant. Planes do not fights with full flaps out, nor do they go round in flat circles at the minimum speed possible. If you enter a sustained turn with a twin Fighter, you are doing it wrong.
The practical reality is that the 109G6 is the worst of the 109s except the Emil. Even in the mossie I do not consider it a major threat and will enter a knife fight without hesitation. At speeds above 150 mph the mossie is able to hang on to the G6 and even cut inside it by blowing a lot of E for a one shot opportunity - and given what the mossie spews out of its nose, that is all it takes. I have much less experience with the 38, but by relative comparison I assume it can do the same.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: icepac on November 21, 2015, 09:18:41 AM
Listen for the slats.
Avoid the slats if you're trying to preserve energy.
If you want to turn hard, the slats are your friend but will sap energy............it's a tradeoff.
Also.....don't forget that the TU2 is a pretty capable "fighter".
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: bozon on November 21, 2015, 10:42:41 AM
TU2 is one of a few planes that exploit the modeling, mechanics and concessions of AH. First, it comes in threes. Second, it has F3 views, otherwise views towards the rear would be a real challenge. Third, somehow rearward firing turrets are that much more deadly that the fixed guns of a chasing plane, which makes a rear approach, as one would against a real fighter extremely dangerous.
Otherwise, it can pull some moves, but is in the league of the 410 - without the super scary mk103s.
If you include the TU2, the A20 is another plane that exploits the heck out of the game mechanics as a fighter.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 21, 2015, 11:34:24 AM
Performance charts lie. It is as simple as that - read them, enjoy them, then throw them out. They measure performance in a part of the envelope which is rarely relevant. Planes do not fights with full flaps out, nor do they go round in flat circles at the minimum speed possible. If you enter a sustained turn with a twin Fighter, you are doing it wrong.
The practical reality is that the 109G6 is the worst of the 109s except the Emil. Even in the mossie I do not consider it a major threat and will enter a knife fight without hesitation. At speeds above 150 mph the mossie is able to hang on to the G6 and even cut inside it by blowing a lot of E for a one shot opportunity - and given what the mossie spews out of its nose, that is all it takes. I have much less experience with the 38, but by relative comparison I assume it can do the same.
Are we playing the same game? lol. 109s and P-38s knife-fighting without using flaps? In the video I posted the 109G-6 pilot had full flaps out many times and they weren't flat turning. In a knife-fight the ability to dump E quickly is just as important as being able to regain that E. The 109 is blessed with both. The P-38 too for that matter.
Yes, after the Emil the G-6 is the worst 109, and compared to the rest of the plane set it is truly mediocre. Which is why I use it as a yardstick to measure other planes against. And to be frank all the twins in the game are worse 'pure' fighters than the G-6. The only exceptions to that 'rule' are the P-38J/L which is a good energy fighter at high altitudes (as long as you're careful and don't let compressibility bite your behind), and of course the 262 which is in a league of its own.
At low altitude the Mosquito VI is better than the P-38J/L at turning, and with similar top speed. However it climbs and accelerates much worse. Against a 109G-6 (assuming equal and competent pilot skills) the 109G-6 should win a large majority of duels against a Mosquito VI. As altitude increases so does the 109s advantage against a Mosquito, so in that respect the P-38 is much better.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 21, 2015, 12:27:52 PM
The G-6 is a better defensive fighter. but overall the P38 is a better fighter all the way around. The styles to use the G-6 are different than the P38 and thus you see much more successful pilot victories in the P38 than the g6. I think the G6 is a harder plane to fly and be successful in compared to the P38 simply because of the styles used. The BnZ method of the P38 is much easier to be successful in compared to the slash attack method that the G6 uses best. The G6 just doesnt quite have a powerful enough engine, which is why the plane is harder to fly vs planes that hold E better. A P38 with alt that uses E is much more deadlier than the g6 with alt that uses E. The P38 does climb better and has a better lift vector in the spiral and rope climbs. It doesnt matter what alt the planes are at. My perspective and judgment in being efficient in both planes are what gives me this reasoning. After using the G6 Vs the Pj in the FSO, you can really see the strengths and weaknesses in both planes and the P38j just has a better overall advantage than the G6.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 21, 2015, 12:58:22 PM
The P-38J/L is a much better fighter than the G-6 in FSO and any other form of organized squad based mission or scenario setup. This is not a 109 vs. ??? thread, I use the 109G-6 as a yardstick and I specified LOW ALT in my comparison. Why can't you just stick to the same premise if you don't agree with it? Why do you need to turn this discussion into something it is not?
P-38: High altitude B&Z fighter. Pretty good at that. Terrible low and slow. Can't turn much. Mosquito VI: Good low-medium alt fighter-bomber. Decent turner, but sluggish and slow climb/accelleration. Awesome firepower. 110G: Same as Mosquito except slower, but turns a little better. Excellent cockpit views. 110C: Turns very good, but slow. Not much firepower. 410: The best firepower in the game, but also the worst turner in the game. Slow climb. Medium speed (not enough to get you out of trouble). The Hornisse is a death bringer to bomber formations, but without little friends to keep the escorts away it's also a death bringer to its own crew.
Ok, what is it you disagree with specifically? I tend to use the 109G-6 as a yardstick since it is quite possibly the most...
mediocre
...fighter of WWII. A P-38J/L will defeat a 109G-6 up high, but down low the 109 is superior. The 109 turns much better and climbs better, and is about as fast down low.
In the two decades I've played this game the only situations where I've lost a 109 to a P-38 has been the 38 B&Zing from superior altitude. That's the only thing a 38 is good at. When I think about it that's the only situation I remember losing any fighter to a 38. There's a reason Ack-Ack and the other 38 drivers are notorious alt-monkeys. :P
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 21, 2015, 01:11:46 PM
Because, I don't think the G-6 is a better low alt plane 1v1, the G14 is though. The the G6 just doesn't quite have the engine performance it needs to keep the nose up Vs a 38. That being said, low alt against a bunch of cons coming in higher, yes the G6 would be better in that interpretation, while in the defensive position.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 21, 2015, 01:31:26 PM
I'm discussing purely from a performance perspective. Not a 'if the 38 spiral climbs to the right and the 109 is stupid enough to follow rather than spiral climb to the left into a two-circle fight it can, and most of the time will win.' Or any other situation that includes whimsical non-measurable data. Hard numbers! Everything else is arguable and irrelevant.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 21, 2015, 01:58:08 PM
I'm discussing purely from a performance perspective. Not a 'if the 38 spiral climbs to the right and the 109 is stupid enough to follow rather than spiral climb to the left into a two-circle fight it can, and most of the time will win.' Or any other situation that includes whimsical non-measurable data. Hard numbers! Everything else is arguable and irrelevant.
It's a good discussion because both planes have a different style that make for good fights against each other. Kinda like the F4U Vs Ki84. Everyone thinks the Ki84 is a better turning plane. But realistically the f4U beats the Ki84 in a 1v1. The F4u has a BnZ style and is poor on the deck slow like a P38 is, while the Ki84 is a slash attack style and much better in defensive positions. However, 1v1 on the deck the F4u would still win based on equal pilots. They are good fights in the game. The P51 is also the same as the P38 in regards to fighting 109s. The p51 retains E much better and has the advantage over the 109 from an E perspective, but the 109 is better in the defensive. Depending on who's style is better would win the fight, but realistically the plane that can hold the E better is the better performer. That's just how the game is.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 21, 2015, 03:14:48 PM
It may be a good discussion, but not one that the thread starter intended (but that's just unheard of on this bbs lol). The F4U is a UFO with its flaps out. It is one of the best turners in the game and nothing at all like the P-38 or P-51 low and slow. In fact it is the exact opposite of those two, energy wise.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: DmonSlyr on November 21, 2015, 03:57:20 PM
Well it explains how the P38j or other 2 engine planes are meant to fly against different planes such as the G6. That is learning within itself how to fly 2 engine fighters better. Both 110s can loop inside G14s and K4s but the 110 is much harder to fly and doesn't hold E like the 38 does. I don't have enough experience in the mossie but maybe I'll give it a try next tour.
The F4u is a great turning plane. That's what makes it great. It actually is meant to be flown BnZ style. It was built to turn well in the Pacific agaisnt japanease fighters but more importantly was meant to be flown high and fast using their great dve. . . That is generally how all American planes are meant to fly. The F4U was lucky enough to turn as well as it can with its flaps and big elevators/ailerons. That being said, most US planes biggest weaknesses are low n slow on the deck. While the F4U has a better chance in the turn it does act very much like the P38 and the P51 on the deck in terms of sluggish behavior. The G6 shines better in the defensive category especially on the deck , which is where it most likely will be getting chased down by higher US fighters. The F4U can turn inside them all, but US fighters have a much harder time than a G6 agaisnt BnZers on the deck because they are heavier.
Really though, I was just comparring that the F4U is to the P38j as the KI84 is to the G6, in terms of successful fighting styles.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 21, 2015, 04:46:52 PM
The 110G is very agile for such a big plane, but like in the 109 you have to use the rudder a lot. It can hang on to a surprising amount of E in dives and zoom climbs. I've surprised many a P-47 driver in the 110G. Flew the 110G as a pure fighter before it was cool. If and when they update the model I may end up flying it again.
Here I am shooting a spit off JB42's tail, back when I was flying with the Jabostaffel.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: Karnak on November 21, 2015, 09:42:50 PM
Acceleration on an unladen Mossie VI is not bad, not good either, but not bad and the top speed is 13mph faster than the P-38J/L on the deck. Yes, the P-38J/L does out accelerate/climb the Mossie, but those are two of the best accelerating/climbing American aircraft. Acceleration and climb for the Mossie VI is very much like the P-51D.
Ignore the HTC performance chart for the Mossie as that is with 2000lbs of bombs and 100% (3400lbs) fuel. When flown as a fighter it almost always has no bombs or shackles and 50% fuel.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: FLS on November 21, 2015, 09:55:32 PM
You can compare acceleration directly by setting the same climb speed and comparing climb rate. This lets you easily compare any aircraft in any configuration.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: Karnak on November 21, 2015, 11:04:10 PM
You can compare acceleration directly by setting the same climb speed and comparing climb rate. This lets you easily compare any aircraft in any configuration.
Yes, this is why I describe it as "acceleration/climb". The Mosquito Mk VI with 50% fuel is very similar to the P-51D with 50% fuel in terms of acceleration/climb at low altitude.
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: WaffenVW on November 22, 2015, 12:11:38 PM
The OP was particularly interested in the 410. The Hornisse can be an effective heavy fighter if flown in groups (like most planes I guess). Using surprise and tactical advantage to mitigate the aircraft's weaknesses. I don't know if there are any dedicated 410 squadrons out there, but that would be my choice if I wanted to fly 410s a lot. That firepower does weigh up for a lot of other deficiencies in a group since every snapshot becomes super deadly and a group can generate many snapshot opportunities and clear each others six'.
Some 410 pron from Dolby:
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: diaster on December 01, 2015, 12:55:30 AM
The only real fault the P-38 has is amount of attention it gets from the reds. Put ten planes of different kinds on the red and green side. At least five of the ten reds will jump the P-38. That though can be a benefit since the red over fixates on the P-38 and becomes weak at that point.
Usually cause the 38 drivers are lofting/perched for a pick!
Title: Re: need help with twin engine fighters
Post by: bozon on December 01, 2015, 07:59:14 AM