Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Kingpin on November 20, 2015, 05:51:51 PM
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I’d like to find a trainer or someone proficient in fighting in the lufbery to assist me with a few questions I have about these types of fights. I have an understanding of the basics, which is that the best sustained turn rate is the key. However, I have some specific questions resulting from some recent 1v1s I’ve done. If anyone might be able to assist me with this in the Training Arena, please post here or PM me. Thanks!
Background on my questions:
I’ve recently returned to Aces High after many months away and have been trying to take more time to practice 1v1 “dueling” – something I’ve never really practiced extensively at all. In an effort to get the most fun and learning out of these, I tend to fly to protract the fight (not necessarily going for the 2 or 3 merge advantage and early kills on crossing high-deflection-angle shots) and try to get into a rolling scissors, flat-scissors and/or lufbery fight until I gain a clearly “behind the 3/9 line” advantage for a shot. Many of these fights, especially when flying against the same aircraft, result in protracted lufbery circle fights. I’ve won a majority of them, but what concerns me are two things:
1) I’m not 100% sure WHY/HOW I am eventually winning these lufbery fights. I have some ideas, but am not certain to the point where I could explain it to someone else. So, I was hoping to examine the topic more closely with someone.
2) There have been some lufbery fights that seem to result in a "strange geometry" that I can't explain. These start with a typical lufbery tail chase, resulting in a close pass (nearly canopy to canopy) again followed by a prolonged tail chase at a greater distance, and often have several repetitions of this until I may eventually get around on the opponent. Again, I’m not 100% certain I understand the geometry on this, but it seems to suggest that one or both of us is alternately tightening and relaxing their turn which is altering/tightening the turn circle. I tend to focus more on the relative position of the enemy (and the proximity of the ground) and not so much on my airspeed, so this probably plays a part in this geometry that I am not 100% able to explain. I am hoping to explore and understand this better as well.
I hope this helps to clarify what I want to work on and understand more fully.
<S>
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Hey Ryno,
Glad to hear that you are doing some flying again.
I'm available to work on what ever you would like in the TA. Let me know what's a good time for you as my schedule is pretty flexible right now.
:salute
Sik
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1. If you turn in similar low E co-E aircraft you may stalemate but usually one of you will trade speed for angles and win or lose as a result. Staying in lag and building speed and altitude can give up angles to the bandit and encourage them to pull hard for a shot they hopefully can't make. This lets you drag them around nose up with your energy advantage until they stall.
Basically you slowly increase energy( speed and/or altitude), while baiting the bandit to turn harder and lose energy.
2. Sounds like offset turn circles. You should be able to see what it is with film.
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1. If you turn in similar low E co-E aircraft you may stalemate but usually one of you will trade speed for angles and win or lose as a result. Staying in lag and building speed and altitude can give up angles to the bandit and encourage them to pull hard for a shot they hopefully can't make. This lets you drag them around nose up with your energy advantage until they stall.
Basically you slowly increase energy( speed and/or altitude), while baiting the bandit to turn harder and lose energy.
2. Sounds like offset turn circles. You should be able to see what it is with film.
Unfortunately when I went to check later for the film of that particular fight, I couldn't find it. I think I may have failed to save it.
But, in thinking further about it, I believe it is a case of the speed slowing and pulling tighter and tighter circles, resulting in offset circles, as you said.
Here is a diagram I made of what I think was happening. Please correct me if I am wrong. I think as we bled E in the initial luftbery at higher speed, we each started turning tighter, offsetting our turn circles.
(http://i1253.photobucket.com/albums/hh599/Rhino551988/Single%20to%20offset%20circles_zpsuwclmj4w.jpg)
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So, if the above answers the question of the geometry of the fight I was seeing, the question still remains, how does one "win" from this position, where both planes are now flying in offset circles in their tightest turn radius without stalling -- that would also seem to be a stalemated position unless someone makes a mistake and stalls, no?
Or is it possible for one to fly a slightly smoother/faster circle and ultimately gain position behind the other? I have a suspicion that is what happened.
This is the kind of thing I would like to experiment with in the TA: getting into something like the offset circles and then have one relax the turn slightly, while the other continues to pull min turn radius, to see how it affects the position. Actually flying these positions, seeing and doing them from the cockpit, are what I am looking for, in order to develop a better "feel" for it while it is occurring in a fight.
Yes, SIK, I will be happy to work with you on this. Good to see you again too!
<S>
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You don't start on opposites sides of the same circle unless it's an ACM illustration. :D
The turn circles start offset and are likely more fishhook, i.e. changing radius, than pure circles. You'll see it in film with trails. If you both fly lag pursuit you may align flight paths but they usually offset a little.
If you fly lag pursuit with your best sustained turn while the bandit pulls hard for angles in a level turn you will eventually come around on his 6.
Since a flat turn is never your first choice for ACM your merge is generally going to be a vertical lead turn. I think of a lufbery as the result of a stalemate where you are both down to sustained turn speeds with no advantage and without the speed to go vertical. You have an advantage in the lufbery if the bandit doesn't know his minimum speed and G for his best sustained turn. Once you have an E advantage you can use it either for altitude or turn rate. You can build the advantage by flying your best sustained turn while the bandit turns too hard and gets too slow. You can build E through climbing while the bandit gains angles on you. You can build E from reducing your turn rate and building speed while the bandit gains angles on you. Watch the bandit and look at his position relative to you. If he's losing angles he's gaining speed. If he's gaining angles he's slowing down. If he's maintaining his position he's likely watching you to see what you're trying to do.
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So, if the above answers the question of the geometry of the fight I was seeing, the question still remains, how does one "win" from this position, where both planes are now flying in offset circles in their tightest turn radius without stalling -- that would also seem to be a stalemated position unless someone makes a mistake and stalls, no?
Or is it possible for one to fly a slightly smoother/faster circle and ultimately gain position behind the other? I have a suspicion that is what happened.
This is the kind of thing I would like to experiment with in the TA: getting into something like the offset circles and then have one relax the turn slightly, while the other continues to pull min turn radius, to see how it affects the position. Actually flying these positions, seeing and doing them from the cockpit, are what I am looking for, in order to develop a better "feel" for it while it is occurring in a fight.
Yes, SIK, I will be happy to work with you on this. Good to see you again too!
<S>
If you cannot turn inside them. Adjust your turn radius wider and gain more E, next, tuck down and turn inside the circle. Go nose down and then attempt a loop over the top of their horiznal turn. Sometimes with E you can pull a loop over the top and can get a crossing shot. The 109s are very good at this, but you do need to control your plane smoothly in order to maintain the E.
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You don't start on opposites sides of the same circle unless it's an ACM illustration. :D
The turn circles start offset and are likely more fishhook, i.e. changing radius, than pure circles. You'll see it in film with trails. If you both fly lag pursuit you may align flight paths but they usually offset a little.
If you fly lag pursuit with your best sustained turn while the bandit pulls hard for angles in a level turn you will eventually come around on his 6.
Since a flat turn is never your first choice for ACM your merge is generally going to be a vertical lead turn. I think of a lufbery as the result of a stalemate where you are both down to sustained turn speeds with no advantage and without the speed to go vertical. You have an advantage in the lufbery if the bandit doesn't know his minimum speed and G for his best sustained turn. Once you have an E advantage you can use it either for altitude or turn rate. You can build the advantage by flying your best sustained turn while the bandit turns too hard and gets too slow. You can build E through climbing while the bandit gains angles on you. You can build E from reducing your turn rate and building speed while the bandit gains angles on you. Watch the bandit and look at his position relative to you. If he's losing angles he's gaining speed. If he's gaining angles he's slowing down. If he's maintaining his position he's likely watching you to see what you're trying to do.
Yes, I get the "fish-hook" tightening circles would be a more accurate drawing. Mine was intended as a rudimentary sketch to illustrate what I thought was happening (a single lufbery circle) that transitioned into two highly offset circles during the fight. Based on what you said though, I suppose it might be important to note that once we were passing canopy to canopy within a couple hundred yards of each other, that would be an indication that we had reached a very neutral position in the fight, correct?
I guess the theoretical lesson in this is that while we started flying a lufbery in what seemed like the "same circle", we became more and more distinctly offset as we each pulled to improve our angle, instead of minding our turn rate. I think when I was seeing him gain an angle by pulling harder, my instinct was to do the same until we reached that offset circle position. The way I must have ultimately won the fight (as I did eventually come around on his six) was to relax my pull slightly and fly more lag pursuit, improving my turn rate, while he continued to hold a tighter, slower circle. I suppose that is the lesson in all this.
Despite understanding the concepts, I still think I want to work on it in the TA so I can visually see what is working and where, and most importantly, to learn to trust flying the better sustained turn rate , instead of pulling for the turn radius.
<S>
p.s. For DmonSlyr's benefit, I should mention that this occurred right on the deck, with very real danger of dragging a wingtip on the ground (probably because we had both already sliced as much as possible to gain turn rate in the initial tail chase), so there was no room to dip down for more speed in order to convert that E vertically.
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I think you're correct. The pulls to improve position offset the circles which changed radius with the speed changes and any flap use.
The trick being to gain speed for turn rate if you're slow without giving up enough angles to get shot and knowing the speed and G you need to maintain.
What happens in the turn when you exceed the critical AOA is more drag without more lift. Since we don't have an AOA gauge, or a turn rate gauge, or a turn radius gauge, we have to use our speed and g gauges to assess our turns.
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Dont forget to use top rudder when turning really slow, helps a lot.
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Sometimes you can gain a little bit of alt while you make the circle bigger to gain alt/E. This way you can do a nose down turn back into your opponent. This is of course if your plane simply cannot turn inside the other plane. Think of a huluhoop wobbling on the ground. One side goes up the other side goes down. If you go up, you can attempt a sharp nose down turn, they might get a shot solution on you, but if they miss ( and its a hard shot) you can have the energy to rope over them as they go around. It is tough, but this is what you have to do against planes you cannot circle inside of.
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The way I must have ultimately won the fight (as I did eventually come around on his six) was to relax my pull slightly and fly more lag pursuit, improving my turn rate, while he continued to hold a tighter, slower circle. I suppose that is the lesson in all this.
Yes that's the lesson. :aok When the bandit pulls to the stall and ignores his minimum speed he loses turn rate.
As a general rule if you aren't sure of your best sustained turn speed and g just use the slowest speed that lets you pull 3g. Make that your minimum maneuvering speed. If you're going slower you should be going vertical.
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Yes that's the lesson. :aok When the bandit pulls to the stall and ignores his minimum speed he loses turn rate.
As a general rule if you aren't sure of your best sustained turn speed and g just use the slowest speed that lets you pull 3g. Make that your minimum maneuvering speed. If you're going slower you should be going vertical.
The tricky part in all of this, at least for me, was to not "overreact" to the apparent loss of position (caused by the opponent's tighter turn) by likewise pulling into a tighter circle. It takes a little "trust" in the concept of maintaining the better sustained turn speed and some patience to let the turn rate advantage play out into a positional advantage. It strikes me that this is a good example where "flying the theory" trumps flying by visual instinct alone. That is what intrigues me so much about the subject.
I've subsequently done some further reading on this and found (again) Badz/Badboy's old bootstrap calculator along with a somewhat more recent thread that Moot posted on the subject, including a list of turn radii. In that thread there is a discussion of best sustained turn speed/rates and how to determine them. I may have to delve into that some. In that thread, you mention the 2.5-3g range as typically being optimal, so I will be conscious of that in my practice, testing and application of this.
Thanks again for the information and helping me "riddle this out" in my mind. Now just to practice it in some of my favorite aircraft. I'll let you know if I stumble upon any other questions in my practice of sustained turn fights.
<S>
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Kingpin,
Welcome back!
What you are looking to understand is now called a Rate/Radius fight. It was developed 'academically' in western aviation schools in the late 1980s-early 1990s--though it is clear from watching film and studying historic fights that some fighter pilots had figured it out as early as WWII. With the advent of near (or greater than) 1-to-1 thrust to weight ratio air machines, the high art of BFM gave way to GFM, but the ways of the art have not been lost.
As I read through your writings, it looks to me like you've gotten the basics of the flat plain geometry figured out. Making sure you understand "God's G", Lift Vector control, what "E" really is, and of course Corner Velocity... and how they apply to this problem is the next step.
I'm impressed that you got into BadBoy's Bootstrap Calculator! (It intimidates most rational folks :rolleyes:)
I will have Friday available to spend some time in a 1-on-1 session Friday if you have time available then.
Please PM with your availability if interested.
-Rodent57
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Here's an alternate illustration.
To start on opposite sides of a big circle you'd have to offset the merge with the diameter of the circle for turning room.
The usual merge is closer and turns early. The turn circles start offset but you can initially appear to be on opposite sides of a bigger circle.
Mutual climbing lead turns would reduce the offset.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/1f0d/76oe3cpuwbl6yad6g.jpg) (https://www.mediafire.com/view/?76oe3cpuwbl6yad)
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Yes, I see the usefulness in that diagram! It shows how the horizontal offset and subsequent turn radii affect the offset circles. I still think my particular case in the lufbery fights was both of us both pulling tighter and tighter circles into the offset position. However, I do see where it can happen in initial merges as well.
In fact, in thinking about that illustration more, I see where this applies to many 1v1s I have had or seen in films, particularly at and after the second merge. Assuming both planes do a smooth Immelmann, going for the high ground at the first merge, and neither gains a significant advantage, resulting in a second co-E merge: the diagram shows what can happen after this second merge. If there is not enough E to do a true second Immelmann, instead both do an oblique climbing turn (chandelle) back into each other (just as you said). And then we have essentially what is shown in the diagram, two offset circles (albeit climbing spirals). The important point being, if I understand all this correctly, this is now a two circle fight -- so turn rate (v.s radius) is key!
This is what I usually see in this situation. By doing a smooth climbing turn, you let the con feel as though he is gaining position so he will turn tighter. He is now turning for radius, while I am maintaining rate. So, I should win the energy fight, provided I can stall him out before he has an effective shot. I usually do this by pointing my left wingtip at or just behind him (assuming left turns as illustrated) flying lag pursuit. Often they can only get their nose around to about the 9 o'clock position, but don't have the E to either pull lead or keep the nose up for a shot. At this third merge they usually fire just behind and/or below me and either stall or have lost in the vertical, so it just a matter of rolling in behind their 3/9 line.
That's just one application I see of that diagram. Cool stuff when you see the illustrations and theory applied and know that it really works!
<S>
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Just understand the one circle vs two circle fight is not about offset, it's really about flow. Did you turn in the same direction as the bandit on the merge or in the opposite direction? You can fight nose to nose with radius or nose to tail with turn rate using either overlapping or offset turn circles. It's less confusing if you just think the head on turn is a radius fight and the tail chase is a turn rate fight and forget how many circles it is.
The bandit pulling for angles is still nose to tail so it's still basically a turn rate fight. He is decreasing his radius as a consequence of increasing his rate temporarily. Radius and rate are both always factors but it's primarily a rate fight. If the bandit reverses direction it becomes a radius fight.
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Just understand the one circle vs two circle fight is not about offset, it's really about flow. Did you turn in the same direction as the bandit on the merge or in the opposite direction? You can fight nose to nose with radius or nose to tail with turn rate using either overlapping or offset turn circles. It's less confusing if you just think the head on turn is a radius fight and the tail chase is a turn rate fight and forget how many circles it is.
Yes, I get this. Circle flow and offset are two different things. Thinking about all this was kind of the "ah ha!" moment for me while examining the geometry of the lufbery, with regard to understanding it as a "two circle fight" The true meaning/importance of "one circle" and "two circle" flow seem to be to simplify the determination of whether radius or rate is the deciding factor. It previously seemed counter-intuitive to call a lufbery a "two circle fight", but now it makes sense.
The bandit pulling for angles is still nose to tail so it's still basically a turn rate fight. He is decreasing his radius as a consequence of increasing his rate temporarily. Radius and rate are both always factors but it's primarily a rate fight. If the bandit reverses direction it becomes a radius fight.
Yes, in fact I was thinking "what if you have (mistakenly) entered a lufbery in a plane with a good radius performance vs. a plane with better rate performance?" The answer would be to reverse your turn into a flat scissors instead, correct? This can be hard to do without getting shot, as exiting a lufbery usually gives the other plane your six. BUT, if you have (or can create) offset circles, there is a near merge point that presents a safe opportunity to reverse the turn back into one circle flow. I see that as a place where these concepts (rate/radius, circle flow, and offset circles) come together in application.
This makes me want to try some practice where we reverse out of offset circles to see what happens and how best to do it...
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Make time Friday for Rodent, he's the expert. :D
Sik1 is our newest trainer, he also offered to help. :aok
If you still have questions let me know.
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Im not a trainer, but i know enough about circles :)
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Im not a trainer, but i know enough about circles :)
Faceoff circles don't count, Jo. :P
I'd be happy to do some practice with you as well, assuming that was an offer.
<S>
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Faceoff circles don't count, Jo. :P
I'd be happy to do some practice with you as well, assuming that was an offer.
<S>
haha :) just shoot me a PM Ingame when you want too bud.
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BUT, if you have (or can create) offset circles, there is a near merge point that presents a safe opportunity to reverse the turn back into one circle flow.
This makes me want to try some practice where we reverse out of offset circles to see what happens and how best to do it...
Hi Kingpin
I just back after a fairly lengthy hiatus and I'd just like to offer you some practice, and a few tips.
Firstly, one of the most important skills in a lufbery is knowing if you actually have offset circles or not. There are some visual cues, and recognizing them is vital because offset in the circles can either benefit you or hurt you depending on your position relative to your opponent. The rule of thumb to use is, if you already have an angles advantage, offset will help a lot, if your opponent has the advantage offset will hurt you a lot. You can create offset with a yo-yo and the fact that it can either help you or hurt you makes it really important to know when to create circle offset and when not to. I've had people tell me "When you do it it works, when I do it I get killed" and that's just because they aren't recognizing the visual cues that trigger the appropriate BFM response.
It also helps if you see your opponent trying to create offset to know if they are doing it at the appropriate time, if they aren't you just let them because they may be helping you. If they are getting it right, then you have just been tipped off that the guy you are fighting knows exactly what he's doing, while you still have time to try and do something about it.
I'd be happy to meet with you in the training arena and I can do evenings between 9pm and midnight and weekend afternoons and evenings if the UK time zone is any good for you.
Hope that helps
Badboy
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Kingpin,
I can say with absolute confidence, and learned humility, that if you can set up a session or two with Badboy to learn the mystery and the muscle of rate & radius fights...you should drop everything to do it.
Simply put, he's the best I've encountered by a lot!
Rodent57
PS Yes, I will still gladly keep our appointment and work on the rest of the universe.
:salute
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Kingpin,
I can say with absolute confidence, and learned humility, that if you can set up a session or two with Badboy to learn the mystery and the muscle of rate & radius fights...you should drop everything to do it.
Simply put, he's the best I've encountered by a lot!
Rodent57
PS Yes, I will still gladly keep our appointment and work on the rest of the universe.
:salute
Yes, I felt exactly the same when I saw his reply. I have PM'd him about setting up a time. I still look forward to working with you Friday as well.
I did a session with SIK1 and filmed our circles, which was very informative, perhaps for the both of us! (I may post a couple interesting screen shots from the films.) What's great about using the AH film viewer, is turning on Trails and then panning the fixed external view so you are looking down on the circles -- this way you can accurately see the actual turn circles with the trails. This clearly showed how offset circles can make fights appear to have big changes in angular advantage when in reality the fight is still quite neutral. However, when the circles were closer to overlap, it became easier to determine more accurately who was gaining or losing around the circle. Another interesting point was that rarely did the circles overlap exactly. Even when we were maintaining a quite neutral position (180-degrees across the circle from each-other) and maintaining roughly the same speed, we never truly scribed the same circle -- there was still a small amount of offset either from the initial entry into the fight or perhaps slight variances in our "steadiness" in holding the lufbery.
I am finding the exploration of this geometry and area of ACM to be very interesting, with aspects that were counter-intuitive at first that now make considerably more sense to me.
Thanks again for all the assistance and feedback I've gotten from this thread!
<S>
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I love it when 'students' understand the value of film review! Absolutely agree with using trails to see relative flight paths (don't forget to use the horizontal view to see relative vertices maneuvers, and the recorded views (from internal view) to help reinforce what you perceived vs what happened).
Reference your study of geometry:
Most of the geometry can be visualized using a couple of plastic lids with little tiny airplanes drawn on them. Allows you to rotate each at varying degrees per second and see the effect (s) through time. Can then offset the centers of the circles to different points and see those effects. From there, you start blending in the vertical components (high and low yo-yos) that Badboy discusses above to see how that affects things.
It is fun to understand the 1-on-1.
PS: The Lufberry defense was considered obsolete before the last year of WW I ... but understanding it is fundamental to all advanced maneuvering.
:cheers:
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Here's an improved graphic. It shows better the options at the likely decision point after the initial turn when you assess the bandit. If it's the common climbing lead turn you may end up on the larger circle then offset your flight paths as you vary your pulls and lift vectors.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d5d8/vdz3907elc1z1cx6g.jpg) (https://www.mediafire.com/view/?vdz3907elc1z1cx)