Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: 49Dallas on January 07, 2016, 12:26:15 PM
Title: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: 49Dallas on January 07, 2016, 12:26:15 PM
Please watch in 1080p and full screen. Sorry for the loud volume I don't know how to turn it down in the youtube editor.
Sorry for the poor editing, I've really never made a video before and the film viewer is terrible.
4-5 hits at 0:37
This film is full of [CRAP] Hits on wings, fuselages.
I understand fuselages will take a lot of hits, But eventually they must give. Wings should take what? Two hits? Multiple clips of wings taking multiple hits at the root.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: 49Dallas on January 07, 2016, 12:37:31 PM
Skuzzy,
I'm sorry for posting in the wrong forum, I thought it was the appropriate one. Thank you for moving it.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Skuzzy on January 07, 2016, 12:37:31 PM
Glad you agree. Although it should be mentioned, a Youtube video is not proof of anything good or bad.
To date, no one has submitted a video which indicates there is a problem with the 30mm round. So far it has all been a perceptual issue. I.e. "My round hit the plane! It should have disintegrated it!"
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Hetzer7 on January 07, 2016, 12:40:21 PM
There is definitely nothing wrong with ghi's 30mm's, i can attest to that.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: 49Dallas on January 07, 2016, 12:41:49 PM
Glad you agree. Although it should be mentioned, a Youtube video is not proof of anything good or bad.
To date, no one has submitted a video which indicates there is a problem with the 30mm round. So far it has all been a perceptual issue. I.e. "My round hit the plane! It should have disintegrated it!"
I'm sorry for posting in the wrong forum, I thought it was the appropriate one. Thank you for moving it.
I think it's fine. I don't have problems with fighters but bombers are iffy. I killed a 38 in that sortie with no problem. He did take 3-4 30mm before going poof though. I sent you an email with the film attached to it if you want to review it. I'd like to ask you how much "damage" does a 30mm mk 108 round do and how much does it take to blow the wing off a lancaster? How many rounds can a Lancaster fuselage take?
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Wiley on January 07, 2016, 01:26:50 PM
I think it's fine. I don't have problems with fighters but bombers are iffy. I killed a 38 in that sortie with no problem. He did take 3-4 30mm before going poof though. I sent you an email with the film attached to it if you want to review it. I'd like to ask you how much "damage" does a 30mm mk 108 round do and how much does it take to blow the wing off a lancaster? How many rounds can a Lancaster fuselage take?
At 0:45, he zippers the fuselage from tip to tail. I'm guessing it was hits over multiple parts of the plane, none of which took 100% of whatever they needed to break the parts.
I am not a WWII munitions expert, but that's the kind of thing that makes it look fishy to a lot of people. It seems to me a lot of people expect 1x30mm to kill whatever part it hits, which I don't think is necessarily right, but 30mm really seems to behave strangely at times on large targets.
Dallas- Damage is variable based on closing speeds and likely other factors I don't know about. It's not as simple as "a wingroot has 200hp, a 30mm does 180 damage" or whatever you're looking for.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: 49Dallas on January 07, 2016, 01:34:50 PM
At 0:45, he zippers the fuselage from tip to tail. I'm guessing it was hits over multiple parts of the plane, none of which took 100% of whatever they needed to break the parts.
I am not a WWII munitions expert, but that's the kind of thing that makes it look fishy to a lot of people. It seems to me a lot of people expect 1x30mm to kill whatever part it hits, which I don't think is necessarily right, but 30mm really seems to behave strangely at times on large targets.
Dallas- Damage is variable based on closing speeds and likely other factors I don't know about. It's not as simple as "a wingroot has 200hp, a 30mm does 180 damage" or whatever you're looking for.
Wiley.
You're right. But I feel like 2-3 30mm should take a wing especially since I hit the root, This happened multiple times. I absolutely RAKED the fuselage with probably 6 rounds and it didn't die. It's just crazy to me. I sent the film to Skuzzy and maybe he would be so kind to post the logs?
I just watched the film at .14x and then at .25x that in youtube so basically frame by frame and counted 4 hits at 0:45-0:49.
1:40 L wing 2 hits Fuse 1 hit
2:10 Looks like the fuse takes 3 hits, 2 near the L wing and the L wing falls off.
Tallied up that's 9 30mm hits to the fuseulage and 2 hits to the left wing.
Drone 1(left side)
0:06 took 2 Lwing hits and a fuse hit
2:50 fuse hit and 2 Lwing hits
Ack blows up drone 2
Drone 3(Right side)
4:10 MG fire
Takes a tater or two and eventually goes down probably due to ack taking off it's wing. He probably would've got the ditch if I didn't finish him off.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Skuzzy on January 07, 2016, 01:49:31 PM
I'll post the details once I get the film through the debugger.
However, I can pretty much tell you strafing a ginormous bomber with any round is, probably, not going to kill it. A focused burst of rounds, at one point, *could* do far more damage.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Wiley on January 07, 2016, 01:51:57 PM
Don't know. Splash damage with it seems low to me sometimes, and I get the impression there are still multiple things to hit at the wingroot. Might be the two rounds connected directly with different parts and that's why nothing fell off. Wings and flaps are counted as different parts for example. One of my pet peeves is I quite often hit F4Us on the flaps with 30mm and they only lose the flap even though I was firing from near six on the plane and hit near where it connects to the wing. Maybe the math is there that it would survive, I can't say. It seems to me the Lancs might have similar things that appear counterintuitive.
Lot of unknowns, and a case can be made for that being okay. I've never seen stats for how many 30mms to a wingroot or the fuselage a Lanc can take and still fly. That info seems a bit difficult to find.
As Skuzzy says above, my workaround is to concentrate fire on one spot with the 30mm as with all other gun packages, then I generally don't need to worry about it.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: 49Dallas on January 07, 2016, 01:58:15 PM
Don't know. Splash damage with it seems low to me sometimes, and I get the impression there are still multiple things to hit at the wingroot. Might be the two rounds connected directly with different parts and that's why nothing fell off. Wings and flaps are counted as different parts for example. One of my pet peeves is I quite often hit F4Us on the flaps with 30mm and they only lose the flap even though I was firing from near six on the plane and hit near where it connects to the wing. Maybe the math is there that it would survive, I can't say. It seems to me the Lancs might have similar things that appear counterintuitive.
Lot of unknowns, and a case can be made for that being okay. I've never seen stats for how many 30mms to a wingroot or the fuselage a Lanc can take and still fly. That info seems a bit difficult to find.
As Skuzzy says above, my workaround is to concentrate fire on one spot with the 30mm as with all other gun packages, then I generally don't need to worry about it.
I'll post the details once I get the film through the debugger.
However, I can pretty much tell you strafing a ginormous bomber with any round is, probably, not going to kill it. A focused burst of rounds, at one point, *could* do far more damage.
I can't wait to see the logs. I wonder what the 30mm base damage is and the strength of the lancaster's wing is. I'd like to see if the hitsprites match up to where the plane was actually hit too.
As far as concentrating in one spot, There are multiple passes where I hit the wing root, At the start of the film I get 2 planes with 2 hits each on the wing root with 30mm rounds. If that isn't concentrated fire I don't know what is. The lead plane took NINE count NINE 30mm hits to the fuselage.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: The Fugitive on January 07, 2016, 02:15:59 PM
I believe the view you get in game and on the film is an aproxomation of what really happened. The packets sent have the actual hits and damage is accessed accordingly. At least that is what I seem to remember reading here.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Wiley on January 07, 2016, 02:39:56 PM
I believe the view you get in game and on the film is an aproxomation of what really happened. The packets sent have the actual hits and damage is accessed accordingly. At least that is what I seem to remember reading here.
Dallas- I reiterate, the wingroot is likely comprised of multiple "parts", and 1 30mm may not destroy any of them.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: The Fugitive on January 07, 2016, 03:44:49 PM
I remember those, but that isn't what I'm talking about. From your view you see the hit sprite hit the wing root. It may "look" like it hit 6 inches back 2 inches off the body and the next one hit right next to it, but only by looking at the hit logs will you know were it hit other than in that general area.
I think that may be where some have such a hard time with this. To them it looks like they scored 3, 30mm hits to the wing root when in reality only one is scored as a wing root hit, one of the other two traveled through the wing and took out the landing gear and and the third actually hit the body/fuselage.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: 49Dallas on January 07, 2016, 03:49:51 PM
I remember those, but that isn't what I'm talking about. From your view you see the hit sprite hit the wing root. It may "look" like it hit 6 inches back 2 inches off the body and the next one hit right next to it, but only by looking at the hit logs will you know were it hit other than in that general area.
I think that may be where some have such a hard time with this. To them it looks like they scored 3, 30mm hits to the wing root when in reality only one is scored as a wing root hit, one of the other two traveled through the wing and took out the landing gear and and the third actually hit the body/fuselage.
I can't wait to see the logs. I wonder what the 30mm base damage is and the strength of the lancaster's wing is. I'd like to see if the hitsprites match up to where the plane was actually hit too.
I completely understand what you're saying. But why wouldn't the sprite be exactly where you hit, Especially if you look at film afterwards?
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Wiley on January 07, 2016, 03:51:39 PM
I remember those, but that isn't what I'm talking about. From your view you see the hit sprite hit the wing root. It may "look" like it hit 6 inches back 2 inches off the body and the next one hit right next to it, but only by looking at the hit logs will you know were it hit other than in that general area.
I think that may be where some have such a hard time with this. To them it looks like they scored 3, 30mm hits to the wing root when in reality only one is scored as a wing root hit, one of the other two traveled through the wing and took out the landing gear and and the third actually hit the body/fuselage.
Ahh... ok. That still seems counterintuitive as all get out to me. It would seem to me to be so much easier to show the sprite where it actually hits rather than somewhere else.
I'm also having trouble imagining a scenario where a round hitting the gear from the top wouldn't be in a position to damage the wing around it significantly. I'm not disputing that's how it may work in the game, just don't like it if that's so. ;)
Wiley.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: hitech on January 08, 2016, 01:29:32 PM
Each and every time we look into this it verifies all is well.
See this post for the last go around. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,362989.msg4982017.html#msg4982017
So once again we WASTE time on whiny players who post in the wrong forum, post his whine multiple times and posts in a disrespectful, trolling manner.
We do this simply to shut down the Non issue myths which spread across AH.
This post is what started the latest round. It also got him PNGed.
NOTE: VALUES SHOWN ARE ONLY THE MAX POSSIBLE DAMAGE, THE REAL DAMAGE IS LESS. I.E. Damage at the end of the barrel. So at 95% damage of max value the fuselage would never be destroyed.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Zimme83 on January 08, 2016, 02:13:25 PM
Just for fun i tested in offline mode against the heavy bombers and its definitely possible to land 5-6 tater rounds on a bomber and they keep flying. B-17 wing tip goes off with one hit but the B-24 needs 2 for the wing tip to fall off. The Lancaster tail is very stable and can absorb 3-4 hits depending on how they hit. Also sprayed the B-29 from nose to tail w a Ta-152 and no apparent damage occurred despite 2-3 tater hits. (plus the 20mm:s)
So lesson learned is that the tater is no wonder weapon, you still need to aim for specific parts and/or make sure you can land atleast 2-3 rounds on the same spot in order to kill a bomber.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: vHACKv on January 08, 2016, 03:01:35 PM
The silver lining I see here is that the "30's are bugged myth", that someone started (*cough cough Dolbly), is now put to bed. It appears the original post was to maybe point out a bug, and have it fixed, or at least get an explanation. As a big cannon bird flyer it has always been in the back of my mind. This puts the whole thing to bed for me :D
What other game can you post on the forum and have the H.M.F.I.C. (Head Mr. Funny In Charge) chew you out? That is customer service IMHO.
I love this game, and thank you for giving it to us, and keeping me away from gambling, cocaine and women of poor reputation. :salute
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Skuzzy on January 08, 2016, 03:24:27 PM
I found a typo in the chart. The second "Center Fuselage" is for drone 1.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: 49Dallas on January 08, 2016, 04:03:45 PM
Thank you very much for posting this. Sorry for being a "whiny player you waste time on". Skuzzy said he would be happy to post logs, I didn't think it was such a big deal. Any chance of you releasing the tool you use to look at film? Then you won't have subscribers bothering you about "mai taters didn't hit!"
Just for fun i tested in offline mode against the heavy bombers and its definitely possible to land 5-6 tater rounds on a bomber and they keep flying. B-17 wing tip goes off with one hit but the B-24 needs 2 for the wing tip to fall off. The Lancaster tail is very stable and can absorb 3-4 hits depending on how they hit. Also sprayed the B-29 from nose to tail w a Ta-152 and no apparent damage occurred despite 2-3 tater hits. (plus the 20mm:s)
So lesson learned is that the tater is no wonder weapon, you still need to aim for specific parts and/or make sure you can land atleast 2-3 rounds on the same spot in order to kill a bomber.
It's just odd that I put 9 taters in the fuselage of the lead plane and multiple hits in the wing roots on multiple planes.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Skuzzy on January 08, 2016, 04:19:58 PM
Look at the chart. It matches the film.
There were seven 30mm hits on the fuselage, and 1 splash hit (overflow from another damaged component).
There is no reason to release a tool. It has been proven, over and over again, there is not a problem with the 30mm round. It probably ranks as the most looked at weapon round in the game.
EDIT: The 5.9 damage was from the 13mm gun. The 75 damage was from the 30mm gun.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: 49Dallas on January 08, 2016, 04:47:32 PM
There were seven 30mm hits on the fuselage, and 1 splash hit (overflow from another damaged component).
There is no reason to release a tool. It has been proven, over and over again, there is not a problem with the 30mm round. It is probably ranks as the most looked at weapon round in the game.
Thanks for clarifying. I must have miscounted. I actually remember getting ready to take off my shoes in case it was over ten. Haha :D The release of the tool would allow people to independently review the data, without having to bother HTC.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Kingpin on January 08, 2016, 06:47:31 PM
Thanks for clarifying. I must have miscounted. I actually remember getting ready to take off my shoes in case it was over ten. Haha :D The release of the tool would allow people to independently review the data, without having to bother HTC.
Actually, this might be a good wishlist item for AH3. Perhaps a check-box to toggle on and off "Show Damage in Buffer" which would work only in Offline/Custom Arenas or in the Training Arena, like the Lead Computing Gun-sight does.
For example: "SYSTEM: 62.5 damage to LEFT_INNER_WING" might show in the buffer with each hit. Players could get live feedback from their gunnery practice, seeing what component they are hitting and how much damage the round did. I think this would be a good learning tool for gunnery and learning the effective use of the various gun-packages in the AH plane-set.
Just an idea.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: 49Dallas on January 08, 2016, 08:16:33 PM
Actually, this might be a good wishlist item for AH3. Perhaps a check-box to toggle on and off "Show Damage in Buffer" which would work only in Offline/Custom Arenas or in the Training Arena, like the Lead Computing Gun-sight does.
For example: "SYSTEM: 62.5 damage to LEFT_INNER_WING" might show in the buffer with each hit. Players could get live feedback from their gunnery practice, seeing what component they are hitting and how much damage the round did. I think this would be a good learning tool for gunnery and learning the effective use of the various gun-packages in the AH plane-set.
Just an idea.
We absolutely need this. In addition it should show a planes weight, and fuel load.
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: Wiley on January 08, 2016, 08:24:26 PM
Yup. Let's get rid of all the unknowns. Then people can learn what to do simply by reading the spreadsheets rather than actually playing the game.
Wiley.
I wouldn't want any spreadsheets provided. I was thinking along the lines of something that benefits those willing to put in the effort of practice time.
The game is already coded in a way that tells you when you've hit a ship (what you've destroyed). So, I was thinking it may not be that difficult to code in hits on aircraft ONLY able to be seen in OFFLINE/CUSTOM practice or TRAINING arenas, as I could see the benefits of that as a learning/teaching tool.
<S>
Title: Re: Don't worry guys, The 30mm isn't buggy.
Post by: lyric1 on January 08, 2016, 10:00:58 PM