General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Zimme83 on January 17, 2016, 03:35:46 PM
Title: The what-if:s
Post by: Zimme83 on January 17, 2016, 03:35:46 PM
A bit interesting to see all those planes that didn't make it to the front lines for various reasons. Aside from planes like Bearcat and the Spiteful, that were operational, only a bit too late there was a lot of more unconventional designs that i would have loved to see in the air. XF-5U is one: (http://www.laesieworks.com/ifo/lib/disc-pict/XF5U-1-02.jpg) Do-335 Another: (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/do335-112.jpg) Horten Ho-229 a third: (http://airandspace.si.edu/webimages/highres/WEB12026-2011h.jpg)
I wonder how post war Aircraft designing would have looked like if these more unconventional designs would have been successful in combat.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 17, 2016, 04:01:41 PM
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Zimme83 on January 17, 2016, 08:33:22 PM
A few Do335 were flying and it proved itself capable of outrunning the Tempest on the deck. XF-5U was not a flying wing since it had a tail with elevators. The flight test of the Ho-229 wasnt that bad at all, it flew very well:
Quote
The H.IX V2 reportedly displayed very good handling qualities, with only moderate lateral instability (a typical deficiency of tailless aircraft). While the second flight was equally successful, the undercarriage was damaged by a heavy landing caused by Ziller deploying the brake parachute too early during his landing approach. There are reports that during one of these test flights, the H.IX V2 undertook a simulated "dog-fight" with a Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter, and that the H.IX V2 outperformed the Me 262.
So with more time and Resources it might have been a factor to reccon with.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Zimme83 on January 17, 2016, 08:40:35 PM
SAAB had the J-21: (http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviation/img/saab/saabj21.jpg)
Had a DB 605B Engine, ejection seats and was the only prop-to-jet conversion of an operational Aircraft in the World. (http://www.flygvapenmuseum.se/globalassets/global/foremal/utstallda_flygplan/teknikutveckling/j-21r.jpg)
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 18, 2016, 07:58:16 AM
SAAB had the J-21: (http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviation/img/saab/saabj21.jpg)
Had a DB 605B Engine, ejection seats and was the only prop-to-jet conversion of an operational Aircraft in the World. (http://www.flygvapenmuseum.se/globalassets/global/foremal/utstallda_flygplan/teknikutveckling/j-21r.jpg)
If it was operational, what is it doing in this thread? Breaking your own rules eh?
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: MiloMorai on January 18, 2016, 08:40:28 AM
I too would love to play a game with the freak flyers. It'd take a little bit of work, but I'm sure they could knock them out in a weekend, right? *flees in abject terror*
Wiley.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 18, 2016, 10:59:03 AM
Seems it's a what if.... so about anything goes.... like what if those tomcats showed up on the coast of Japan in 45!! :devil
:salute
I remember that movie! :cheers:
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: morfiend on January 18, 2016, 12:20:34 PM
LOL see that wasnt hard was it! :rofl :rofl
Silly movie but it seemed to be the answer you were seeking!
:salute
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Zimme83 on January 18, 2016, 05:53:29 PM
Tomcats showed up in -41, not -45 if i remember it correctly, it was just prior the attack at Pearl Harbor.
The point of the thread is to show the more unconventional designs. Most of them never made it to the squads but its fun to think about U.S Navy having the F-5U instead of the Corsair or Luftwaffe having the Do-335 as their front line fighter. Most of these concepts wasn't bad at all but it wasn't the time to spend industrial resources on them (in case of the Allies) or there wasn't enough resources (Germany) to get them ready for war in time.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: save on January 19, 2016, 07:23:52 AM
1/3rd of Swedens fighter force flew with the Finns ( with finnish markings) in the winter war 1939.
Wouldn't have seen action no matter when they became operational. Sweden wasn't directly involved in the war.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Zimme83 on January 19, 2016, 07:33:28 AM
Yep, thats OT but with 12.000 men and 1/3 of the air force fighters (plus some bombers) in Finland during the winter war Sweden was in reality at war. Even dough it was "disguised" as volunteers and the aircrafts were repainted with Finnish markings it was a Swedish unit manned entirely by SwAF pilots and ground crews.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 19, 2016, 09:19:03 AM
Usually not considered a part of WWII. Did they take part in the Continuation War?
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Zimme83 on January 19, 2016, 09:25:34 AM
Usually not considered a part of WWII. Did they take part in the Continuation War?
Lol.... I have never seen anyone saying that the winter war was not a part of WW2.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 19, 2016, 09:48:27 AM
Really? I have yet to read an historian who considers it part of WWII. It was a three month war between Finland and Russia. Neither party were at that time involved in the war with Germany. Similarly the Second Sino-Japanese war also fought at this time is not considered part of WWII.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Zimme83 on January 19, 2016, 09:54:32 AM
OK, im not going to argue about it. Im right you are not. You can think of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and how its relevant for the winter war.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 19, 2016, 01:04:44 PM
Notwithstanding Your Hans Rosling impersonation, WWII started when Germany attacked the Anglo-Polish and Franco-Polish alliances resulting in France and Britain declaring war on Germany. That's a World War because France and Britain were world-spanning empires at the time. If France and Britain hadn't declared war (and betrayed the Polish like they did the Czech) it would have been nothing more than a local European war between Poland and Germany. Just like the German invasion of Czechoslovakia, and the Winter War.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Ack-Ack on January 19, 2016, 01:44:39 PM
Really? I have yet to read an historian who considers it part of WWII. It was a three month war between Finland and Russia. Neither party were at that time involved in the war with Germany. Similarly the Second Sino-Japanese war also fought at this time is not considered part of WWII.
The 2nd Sino-Japanese War is considered to be part of WW2 after the US became involved when it declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Zimme83 on January 19, 2016, 02:11:58 PM
WW2 started officially with the invasion of Poland, a direct consequence of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. The pact was an agreement between Germany and Soviet Union to split Eastern Europe between them. the pact included that Soviet Union would get Finland. the Winter war was no isolated event, it was a part of a "bigger picture" that eventually lead to Operation Barbarossa.
WW2 lasted from 1st Sept 1939 to 2nd September 1945 and all wars in Europe during that time is considered part of WW2. Period.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 19, 2016, 02:33:52 PM
The 2nd Sino-Japanese War is considered to be part of WW2 after the US became involved when it declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor.
Exactly. After Japan attacked America, and British and Dutch colonies, America, Britain, Canada and the Netherlands declared war on Japan making it a world war, and making China their allies. Prior to 8 December 1941 the Sino-Japanese war was just a regional conflict. Likewise the Continuation War between Finland and Russia 1941-1945 is considered part of WWII after Russia was attacked by the Germans and the Finns as allies on the same day, 22 June 1941. The Winter War of 1939 did not involve any of the parties to WWII at that time, just like the Sino-Japanese war in the period 1937-1941.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Zimme83 on January 19, 2016, 02:38:47 PM
Exactly. After Japan attacked America, and British and Dutch colonies, America, Britain, Canada and the Netherlands declared war on Japan making it a world war, and making China their allies. Prior to 8 December 1941 the Sino-Japanese war was just a regional conflict. Likewise the Continuation War between Finland and Russia 1941-1945 is considered part of WWII after Russia was attacked by the Germans and the Finns as allies on the same day, 22 June 1941. The Winter War of 1939 did not involve any of the parties to WWII at that time, just like the Sino-Japanese war in the period 1937-1941.
Yes it did. Sovjet union was "a part of WW2" since they at the time were an allied to Germany and also had invaded Poland prior to the winter war. Finland also became a part of WW2 when they were invaded, just like the Baltic states.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 19, 2016, 03:20:04 PM
No, that's just factually wrong. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression pact, not an alliance. Prior to the 1941 German invasion and violation of that pact the Russians were in no way part of WWII. At this time Sweden was more of a German ally than what the Russians were.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Grendel on January 19, 2016, 05:53:18 PM
Prior to the 1941 German invasion and violation of that pact the Russians were in no way part of WWII. At this time Sweden was more of a German ally than what the Russians were.
Except the tiny bit of invading Poland. Hence, Soviet Union had already joined the active World War II participants by the time they invaded Finland. Of course, the invasion of the Baltic nations was also part of the grand scheme of WW2 and Ribbentrop pact. And Ribbentrop pact itself is definitely a major part of the World War II history. The Winter War itself was also quite close to flaming up and bringing Britain and other western nations directly against Soviet Union. Therefore: Soviet Union was very much in WW2 prior German invasion. Both militarily and politically.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 19, 2016, 06:36:09 PM
Any war that did not include the major colonial powers of France and Britain was not a world war. It is only when the globe-spanning empires of France and Britain get involved that it becomes a world war. The Soviet invasion of Poland did not provoke the French and British to declare war on Russia. Thus it is not part of any world war, just a regional European conflict. Same with the Baltic invasions and the Winter War of 1939.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Oldman731 on January 19, 2016, 07:36:18 PM
Any war that did not include the major colonial powers of France and Britain was not a world war. It is only when the globe-spanning empires of France and Britain get involved that it becomes a world war. The Soviet invasion of Poland did not provoke the French and British to declare war on Russia. Thus it is not part of any world war, just a regional European conflict. Same with the Baltic invasions and the Winter War of 1939.
This is a nice thought, but, so far as I know, you're about the only one who views the war this way.
- olmdan
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 19, 2016, 08:06:53 PM
Really? Can you quote a published historian who considers the Winter War between Russia and Finland part of WWII?
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Oldman731 on January 19, 2016, 08:56:31 PM
Really? Can you quote a published historian who considers the Winter War between Russia and Finland part of WWII?
...well...OK.
I suppose we could start with Encyclopedia Brittanica:
Russo-Finnish War, also called Winter War, (Nov. 30, 1939–March 12, 1940), war waged by the Soviet Union against Finland at the beginning of World War II, following the conclusion of the German-Soviet Nonaggression Pact (Aug. 23, 1939). http://www.britannica.com/event/Russo-Finnish-War
You could go on to Dupuy and Dupuy, "Military Heritage of America," McGraw-Hill, New York, 1956, which lists "The Soviet-Finnish War, 1939 to 1940" among the "Early Campaigns of World War II. See pages 431-433.
Similarly, the West Point Atlas of American Wars, Volume II, Praeger 1959, lists the Soviet-Finnish War of 1939-40 as among the "Early Campaigns" of WWII. See maps 8-10.
Liddell Hart, in his "History of the Second World War," G.P. Putnam's Sons, New York, 1970, places his Chapter 5 ("The Finnish War") after the overrunning of Poland and the Phony War, at pages 43-48. The title of the book says something about his views on which war included the Winter War.
We could probably spend quite a bit more time tracking down similar historians. On the other hand, can you quote a published historian who doesn't think that the Winter War was part of WWII?
- oldman
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 20, 2016, 07:19:22 AM
Well done. I stand corrected. <S>
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: streakeagle on January 24, 2016, 05:19:03 PM
The Swedish plane the only prop to jet conversion to see service? What about the Yak-15... a Yak fighter with the Me262 engine pasted onto the nose. I think that gets rid of the "only" tag originally posted. (http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/modernplanes/yakovlev/yakovlev-yak-15-10.gif)
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: streakeagle on January 24, 2016, 05:20:49 PM
A quote from wiki that proves I am not crazy (or at least others are as insane as me):
Quote
Along with the Swedish Saab 21R, it was one of only two jets to be successfully converted from a piston-powered aircraft and enter production.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: Zimme83 on January 24, 2016, 05:27:47 PM
Oooh. Havent seen that one before. You are of course correct.
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: save on January 26, 2016, 02:34:58 AM
Do not forget the LA7-R ! you get both Rocket engine AND Prop plane , and you pay for one :) 80kph faster but sucked in everything except exploding.
How do you bail out of the XB-35 without being shredded by the props?
The bail out procedure was somewhat lengthy. You had to unlock your seat and rotate it 180 degrees. Then use a manual seat jack to lower your seat 4 feet, walk aft to a hatch (put on your parachute there) open hatch & bail.
The price for this research = 10 Minute training session in 88 AA gun :cheers:
Title: Re: The what-if:s
Post by: WaffenVW on January 29, 2016, 09:37:39 AM